i don't agree with pushing the idea that anyone can just walk away from the table if they don't like these.
there are a lot of situations where you really can't. not if you, you know... actually want to play magic. if i have a problem with what these mean for the game, and it breaks my immersion in the game space, sure i can choose to walk away from that pod. except maybe now i don't get to play magic all night, maybe the event doesn't fire because there aren't enough participants, maybe i'm now cheated out of prizes because someone knew how much these are despised and that that some people will actively quit. what do you do on turn 8 when one of the 99 is inquisitor eisenhorn? pack up and go? why is that okay to force onto me?
at the same time the people who choose to run these are going to be sitting there going what the ****, these are legit cards, why do these people not want to play me. how is this fair to me. why is that okay to force onto them?
i read a point someone made where it basically says, why is it okay for magic to borrow from all these other IP's and just slap them onto a card, but its not okay for the jedi to come save the day at helms deep or something. there's a reason why an homage is okay, why borrowing with a twist is okay. you see it in wow constantly, its in 40k, its even already in magic and its a fine concept. it takes something and gives it an in universe twist, keeps it relevant to the experience.
this whole concept is just creatively bankrupt. why make innistrad when you can just make the walking dead set, why bother with phyrexians when we can just print up some adeptus mechanicus machine cult cards. **** the weatherlight saga, we're replacing it with the enterprise d. it wears away so much of the experience. so much at the game. it basically says the cards don't matter, the name magic the gathering matters... yet we keep blurring what magic the gathering IS. we don't play magic to play pokemon, or dragonball, or whatever else, we play magic because of the flavor that is magic the gathering.
there's also the bull***** distribution model. put it in a secret lair and it turns out to be good? better hope you had the cash and foresight to buy in! missed the initial printing? well you're probably ****ed because of licensing, have fun! it creates a secondary reserve list and further disenfranchises newer players who might find these cards and think they're cool, but then not be able to obtain them. it also exploits older competitive ones by making them feel forced into a purchase to stay relevant. we already get this from newly released sets - but we can acquire those cards through means such as, well playing magic. limited, draft, pack cracking, all ways to build the collection. all ways to get cards reprint sometimes to make them more available.
skins are okay, they're not mechanically unique cards - and on top of that, well as was mentioned... they're rare. in the past 11 years i've encountered just 2 people playing altered cards. their names were the same (the cards), the art was just different. a demonic tutor with the joker on it can still FEEL like a demonic tutor. if i announce i'm casting demonic tutor people still know what that does. a card named the joker, with a mechanical uniqueness, feels extremely out of place in an established universe.
but this is all nothing new. the walking dead sparked intense backlash, and fierce debate, for weeks. it still sold. the problems were discussed and all there, but people felt the need to buy in for various reasons such as fear of missing out (FOMO), or the idea that the cards would be strong (with some of them seeing legacy play even). so really, the entire concept of this crossover ***** is just exploitation and unless we actively speak with our wallets nothing will change.
the cardboard crack comic is extremely relevant. some would argue it isn't. it'll never get to that point. it doesn't seem like it will right now, but what about in 5 years? how about 10? where will we be in 15? will the game even exist? will anyone seek it out any more if it doesn't even have its own identity? its being treated like its no different than monopoly, that at its heart its still just monopoly despite whats slapped on the board. games like that though, they don't have a fierce identity, they don't have over two decades of flavor and lore. would it be star wars if the jedi were actually my little ponies that pilot helicopters and turn into werewolves or is it just a ******* mess at that point?
other games have done this. other games have failed. other games have been oriented around franchises in other mediums. those games have failed. magic has a tried and proven model that's worked for almost 30 years, and yet decisions are being made that act like its a brand new game without a history, without a history that worked.
Wow dude, I think it's time everybody stepped away from their computer. It's just cardboard with ******* dragons and fairies on them.
its okay to be critical of the things we enjoy my guy. especially when we've enjoyed those things and put money into them, for in some cases decades. even more so when those things are headed in directions that, well... we don't enjoy.
if not discussed here, then where? do you just accept it in silence and keep pumping money and time into something that went in a direction you dislike just so you can keep playing it? if it moves in that direction in the future, but you enjoy playing it and your existing cards are still useable, what do you do? do you keep going? do you get outclassed? do you resign and give up on the thing that you love despite having the tools to play the game?
and if you do walk away, from discussing it, from participating, how is that good for the game? how is that good for the community either? at a certain point it just dies.
the only thing that will kill magic is magic. many feel this is a step in that direction, and would prefer to not see that happen. there's nothing wrong with that.
Exactly. The new guy, or any guy for that matter, needs to understand there is a line to be drawn as far as what we will accept Wizards of the Coast does with our game. If they decide to sell out on what the game has always been and make a flat out mockery out of it then it needs to be clear there are people who will not allow that as opposed to your sheepish conformist mentality of blindly accepting whatever WotC tells you to like. I’m free to think that is having no standard and being weak to the bone.
As opposed to you telling us all what to like and blindly conforming to your vision... That just sounds like trading one master for another.
I'm fine with these crossover cards. More players and diversity of interests is better for everyone. If they have their own little side-format that's fine, as that's no different to UNCommander, cEDH or Commander Draft - it's just format variance.
Don't like the cards, don't buy them. Simple. Not scream at those, in person or online, that might be wanting to learn the mechanics of MTG through something they're already familiar with, or those who get one gifted to them by a loved one because of that other IP, or just Mr Casual, who might actually like giant IP crossovers.
I get the purist mentality, there's nobody stopping you playing a WOTC-Only card list if you want, but nobody is entitled to give out orders on either side of the fence, and expressing someones individuality through their interests - even if that's contrary to yours - isn't 'sheepishness', it's good self-esteem.
Now, where's my Morrigan Aensland with Vampire creature typing - I neeeeedddd thisssss....
It is clear you don’t have a clue about what is going to happen once these cards are released.
First off, don't talk down to me, as it's not only clear I'm your senior in terms of age, but also in terms of the game itself and its associated design.
We are not talking about “just format variance” or little side formats or UNCommander. If that is what it was nobody would mind it. The way WotC is doing this they are forcing EVERYBODY playing Commander games to deal with this garbage because everything is thrown on the same pile. You’ll never again be able to sit down with strangers joining your game without addressing this issue.
Which, as I correctly pointed out, is also true of cEDH, UNCommander and any other 'not to everyones taste' elements of the game. These cards are no different to any other argument, wether it be silver borders, gold borders, proxies, alternate arts or mechanical concepts like land destruction.
That I can speak to that pattern is because I know 'exactly' how this plays out, and I'm all for more diversity and an increased player base, because hopefully it means more players celebrating their collective interests rather than self-entitled, spoilt brats trying to bully others out of enjoying a hobby.
If people wants these other IP’s games then make games for the other IP’s. Not **** up a game that has been there for 25+ years.
Just like the stack, removing mana burn, the introduction of Planeswalkers and ending of Extended was going to kill Magic, I find your rantings less doomsday, and more pompousgrandstanding...
I'm asking because that's pretty much the granddaddy of crossover IPs in one platform. If you say you like SSB then you can essentially say dick all about MTG and its forthcoming developmental plans.
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I'm asking because that's pretty much the granddaddy of crossover IPs in one platform. If you say you like SSB then you can essentially say dick all about MTG and its forthcoming developmental plans.
'buster
You don't find that to be a disingenuous comparison? Seems to me that there's a difference in terms of context and expectations of what the games are. And incidentally, I started disliking SSB the more they broadened the pool of characters outside the core Nintendo/Mario cohort because it felt dissonant to me. But I also don't have much investment in that game so your mileage may vary. Regardless, one can like cross-IP blending in some contexts and not others, it's not an all or nothing thing.
I generally don't love fourth wall breaking in media, but sometimes in some contexts it can elevate the experience. Liking a concept doesn't mean you have to like it applied in all contexts.
I'm asking because that's pretty much the granddaddy of crossover IPs in one platform. If you say you like SSB then you can essentially say dick all about MTG and its forthcoming developmental plans.
'buster
Chandra Nalaar is the next DLC character for SSB Ultimate. Release to be accompanied by a secret lair with a Bowser reskin of Yidaro, Wandering Monster. You heard it here first.
I'm asking because that's pretty much the granddaddy of crossover IPs in one platform. If you say you like SSB then you can essentially say dick all about MTG and its forthcoming developmental plans.
'buster
The crossover content in SSB is contained to SSB though. I can choose to play SSB or Zelda. Link being in SSB does not lessen my experience of playing any of the Zelda games. But the same is not true for Magic. As long as the format allows it, anyone can play any card they want.
Imagine Bowser, Peach and the villager or whoever is now part of the Zelda universe and they walk around in BotW and all future games. I mean, some players may not mind it, or even like it, but others will definitely say "What the hell, Nintendo?!", rightfully so.
Or if Star Trek was suddenly canonized into the Star Wars universe. It's the same thing, because it isn't contained. It would affect all future installments of either IP.
Note that I am not talking about these crossovers being canon, because they won't. But the issue is that both are comparable in terms of how the franchise is consumed. Star Wars and Star Trek are movies with a narrative and worldbuilding, while Magic is a game showcasing certain cards of the universe. No single Magic match is canon, but at least it's all Magic. Until, with the new universes beyond, it's not anymore.
It worked for Marvel, but that's because superheroes are their own brands and the worldbuilding was... there. As such they could be easily consolidated into one setting. It's not easy to consolidate Warhammer into the Magic universe, at least not any easier (or controversial) than consolidating Star Wars into Star Trek.
the cardboard crack comic is extremely relevant. some would argue it isn't. it'll never get to that point. it doesn't seem like it will right now, but what about in 5 years? how about 10? where will we be in 15? will the game even exist? will anyone seek it out any more if it doesn't even have its own identity? its being treated like its no different than monopoly, that at its heart its still just monopoly despite whats slapped on the board. games like that though, they don't have a fierce identity, they don't have over two decades of flavor and lore. would it be star wars if the jedi were actually my little ponies that pilot helicopters and turn into werewolves or is it just a ******* mess at that point?
I think this is an important point. This new move bears the danger of eroding the brand. The effects will be subtle but probably affect how many players enter the game and how many stay. It's not so much that people will not necessarily like it and thus not get into it or drop out. It's just that the game isn't particularly recognizable anymore. It's not that you can point out any particular instance where this move directly hurt the game, but it may lead to a death of thousand unnoticed papercuts.
And when numbers drop, corporate will take even more desperate measures to try and save the brand, alienating more of their established palyer base while confusing new players as the game pulls in multiple different directions.
I don't have the numbers and I'm just a rando with a keyboard so what the hell to I even know, but the past years Magic hasn't felt particularly healthy, and I don't mean in terms of raw numbers of players but in terms of how likely the brand is able to survive itself in the upcoming years. So many business decisions just reek of desperation as if Hasbro is aware (or just pessimistic) that Magic likely won't last much longer and they just try to milk it for as much as they can before it's gone. There are no recent decisions or changes to the game that help its longevity. Instead they cut out things that kept Magic stable just to increase the output of product.
Just like the stack, removing mana burn, the introduction of Planeswalkers and ending of Extended was going to kill Magic, I find your rantings less doomsday, and more pompousgrandstanding...
"People in the past have been wrong about Magic dying, therefore Magic will never die." is a pretty weird take. Magic will die, that's just the nature of things. The question is just when and how it will happen.
The stack and the removal of mana burn did not kill Magic because both were in truth measures to make Magic more robust and helped its longevity. Everyone who knew what they were talking about knew that neither was bad for the game. The only people who complained about it were the usual "they're dumbing down the game" crowd. Planeswalkers didn't kill Magic because it was really just a new (minor) card type that didn't fundamentally change how Magic was played.
But this is different because it has far reaching -and irreversible- consequences not just to some people who don't like the change, but also to potential new players. It not only changes the experience of the game itself, but also how it is perceived from the outside.
Will it kill Magic? Hell if I know. Humans are absolutely terrible at predicting the future, so I won't even try. But it wouldn't surprise me if it did. If it will kill Magic it won't be because 90% of the player base decides to leave the game. It will happen over the course of years as the effects will be felt. And by the time the downwards spiral has started people will blame other things for the downfall of Magic, things that may have contributed to it, but not started it.
Standard won't get this UB stuff BTW, and by result neither modern or pioneer.
There is a big difference in choosing not to buy this UB stuff and leaving a table. It is one thing to be emotionally invested in the game, but how much is healthy anyway? Like if we are getting so triggered about a foreign Ip getting some cards in our beloved game that it gets us so mad that we quit and stop playing with other people?
If you are really not enjoying the game anymore why are you still playing it? are you in an abusive relationship with WotC?
To me all this reaction is overblown and then shows a lot of issues about how and why we engage with this game. Does really a decission like this has to make us so unhappy? does it really destroys the experience?
Or maybe is just internet era drama where we have to get all up in arms over everything. Either way I really think this doesn't take away anything from the actual game, the immersion argument seems weird given than the magic universe is already all over the place, from tolkien influence in Dominaria, to steampunk in Kaladesh, to lovecraft in zendikar eldrazi's and then all the other planes that borrow from pop culture.
My guess is that in the future there would be a Non UB format for commander where is the only significant format that will get to play with this cards anyway.
I'm asking because that's pretty much the granddaddy of crossover IPs in one platform. If you say you like SSB then you can essentially say dick all about MTG and its forthcoming developmental plans.
'buster
Super Smash Bros. was literally made from the start to be a crossover though.
An honest question for players who object to this based on its chance to ruin one's immersion in the game's story: How does it make you feel when someone plays an altered card that touches on another IP? Is Dr. Doom on a Force of Will similarly jarring? Is the rarity of this enough to make it negligible as a concern?
This is something that I personally massively hate. Its a serious disconnect. Luckily its considerably more rare to encounter.
Wow, people are so hurt by this, basically the equivalent of 10 years old arguing over which is the better console. You remind me of the bullies which used to mock other kids because of their hobbies.
And it is going to be even more shocking when this products have a large success and you see new players coming with their UB cards.
When all is said and done this products will bring new players, hope they are engaged and get more in to magic, I am going to welcomed them because sharing a hobby is nice, looking forward to teach them about the 25 years of magic history.
I agree its going to bring in new players and I agree its going to be a success. But will MTG history still be relevant or will it be overwhelmed by Marvel and other Comic Book lores? Will new players be learning and building decks around the stories of the Weatherlight, of Urza...the Ravnica Guilds and so on or will it be a case of big-name pop culture icons that have nothing to do with MTG getting their stories told? Time will tell.
Or maybe is just internet era drama where we have to get all up in arms over everything. Either way I really think this doesn't take away anything from the actual game, the immersion argument seems weird given than the magic universe is already all over the place, from tolkien influence in Dominaria, to steampunk in Kaladesh, to lovecraft in zendikar eldrazi's and then all the other planes that borrow from pop culture.
Referencing or basing off of real-life Mythology or Culture is a very common aspect of Fantasy since its inception. To take Dominaria...MTG took Tolkien and D&D asthetics and ideas and used them to build a unique, extremely lore-rich setting with some of the best fantasy stories of its time. While unconfirmed, its looking like the Universes Beyond products are just going to get dumped into the game wholesale.
I don't even think artistically they'll get changed to look like they fit the setting more.
You literally said "If that was really true, they would be legal in Standard".
By that logic, you are saying that Commander Legends, for instance, should be treated as not allowed in commander, because it wasn't in standard.
Please don't post flawed reasoning, in this case "If that was really true, they would be legal in Standard", and then deny what you wrote. I don't give a crap about Universes Beyond, but saying "If that was really true, they would be legal in Standard" as a test for how much Wizards believes in their product is B.S., and you know it. If everything released was for standard, there would be no Commander Decks each year.
Here's hoping Sol Ring gets printed in the LoTR set as the One Ring. That flavour text would be very suitable.
That actually would be pretty good.
One of my friends at my locals said that Jeweled Lotus was actually chosen as the One Ring instead of Sol Ring.
What a HUGE missed opportunity If that rumor ends up being true.
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Fortunately, I've had that since Innistrad came out & I made a whole deck with new skins. Some just foil-overs, some painted cards, some judge foils/FTV/promos. It's a "Kaalia of the Vast" deck. There isn't a single "normal" looking card in the deck. Aside from the One Ring, there's Star Wars, Marvel & Skimpy cards, but they're all real. I guess I'm lucky to play with a group that's been together since '96. We play team vintage. Either 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3, depending on who can show up. It's been over a year since we've been together though. When I first played the deck, they all thought it was cool. There's one that sometimes acts like Oscar the Grouch & complains that he can't see what the card is because it's covered over with a picture. I just hand the card over to him so he can see it better. Then I tell him to get glasses so he can see better. But after all these years, as long as they are magic cards, they're accepted.
I had to start a new message to add more pix. These are just to show people what skins of cards can look like over cards that already exist. I know people (investors/collectors) are worried that WOTC will use this to get around or do away with the Reserved List, but that's another argument for a different thread.
When all is said and done this products will bring new players, hope they are engaged and get more in to magic, I am going to welcomed them because sharing a hobby is nice, looking forward to teach them about the 25 years of magic history.
Will this really bring in players though? It seems more likely this will bring in random buyers more than anything else.
Seems to me that it's far more likely that fans of LotR and 40k are more likely to buy the cards that feature their favorite characters, scenes, etc. to collect more of the thing they love rather than learning to play the game that they are featured on. I'm sure many in those fandoms are of the nerdy variety and know Magic exists, likely having seen it played at some point. I don't believe Magic incorporating these franchises will bring in new players, but instead just extra buyers.
This feels more like a quick way to get some cash in the short term while forgoing the long term, I base this on Magic's current personality in the last couple of years. There are FAR more quick FOMO kind of products than ever. This kind of attitude I feel is hurting the game, and based on the bannings and the card power lately that is my evidence.
Personally, I foresee many buying this because of their favorite IP, but not stick around once they no longer see that IP anymore. Sure, some may join, but many will also leave for this. Honestly, feels like a wash to me.
If these products were reprints of existing cards with those franchises arts on them I wouldn't mind it, but an entire set and deck series for them? To me that goes too far. I will not be buying any of that product. If a single happens to catch my eye then maybe I'll buy them. The 40Kommander decks better have amazing reprints or I will not buy it whatsoever. I don't care if there is a $200 trap god 40k card in them, I will not.
That was a crossover of all Nintendo franchises at first, at its very core it literally started as a crossover and that was the point. As of late though I do not enjoy seeing characters like Cloud, Ryu, Sephiroth, Joker, and other characters like them. There are far more Nintendo characters they could use (Midna, Imp Midna, Geno, Waluigi, Birdo, other Mario villains, different versions of Ganandorf, Sunshine Mario, hundreds of Pokemon, etc) and other characters that would fit within the style (Zero (Mega Man), X (Mega Man), Sigma, Shadow the Hedgehog, Tails, etc.) Sonic was acceptable to a degree and even Mega Man as one is a legendary rival to Nintendo and has history with them and Mega Man was on Nintendo consoles for a long time. Castlevania was also this way.
The problem with characters like Cloud, Ryu, Sephiroth, and others is the asthetic they bring. They don't match really anything going on. Sooner or later you'll see far more non-Nintendo characters than Nintendo ones soon, at that point you might as well not call it SSB, but that's my opinion. I stopped playing SSB by the third game that came out as I wasn't having fun with it anymore.
Kingdom Hearts is a crossover between Disney, Final Fantasy, and a random C-class anime story. KH3 lacking Final Fantasy (until the DLC) to focus even more on the incredibly confusing subpar story was exceptionally stupid and if they suddenly went "Hey guys, here's Manny the Mammoth from Ice Age" you'd be like "Huh.....that's neither Disney, FF, or terrible anime bull crap."
When it comes to crossovers you have to set a boundary sometimes within the context of the franchise. For SSB you have to take into account Nintendo and its asthetics, For KH3 its certain companies/franchises, and for Magic it was acceptable with some silly silver bordered Hasbro company IP cards, but then it got worse with The Walking Dead and then they decided to jump the shark with this.
Honestly I'm willing to see how this plays out. LOTR I can understand. Warhammer 40K seems strange for a fantasy game but I'll stay open minded about it.
I just hope they select an IP I'd be interested in.
Frankly I just wanted a Water World from the shortlist and more Blue and Blue/Green lands that depict oceanic biomes (coral reefs, kelp forests, hydrothermal vents, shipwrecks, etc.) which evidently is too outrageous for creative to implement. Return to Kamigawa, a MTG IP, is unfathomable. A sea monster Gishath-level commander - unlikely. But UB is perfectly acceptable. It's this concept that bothers me more than crossovers. That reasonable, in-house or on-theme requests are unobtainable.
I'll just keep an open mind and let people enjoy the game their way. It's probably their way of bringing people into MTG and isn't much different from Oricas. The game is already making records though, but I guess it's all about new boundaries. We'll see...
Exactly. The new guy, or any guy for that matter, needs to understand there is a line to be drawn as far as what we will accept Wizards of the Coast does with our game. If they decide to sell out on what the game has always been and make a flat out mockery out of it then it needs to be clear there are people who will not allow that as opposed to your sheepish conformist mentality of blindly accepting whatever WotC tells you to like. I’m free to think that is having no standard and being weak to the bone.
As opposed to you telling us all what to like and blindly conforming to your vision... That just sounds like trading one master for another.
I'm fine with these crossover cards. More players and diversity of interests is better for everyone. If they have their own little side-format that's fine, as that's no different to UNCommander, cEDH or Commander Draft - it's just format variance.
Don't like the cards, don't buy them. Simple. Not scream at those, in person or online, that might be wanting to learn the mechanics of MTG through something they're already familiar with, or those who get one gifted to them by a loved one because of that other IP, or just Mr Casual, who might actually like giant IP crossovers.
I get the purist mentality, there's nobody stopping you playing a WOTC-Only card list if you want, but nobody is entitled to give out orders on either side of the fence, and expressing someones individuality through their interests - even if that's contrary to yours - isn't 'sheepishness', it's good self-esteem.
Now, where's my Morrigan Aensland with Vampire creature typing - I neeeeedddd thisssss....
It is clear you don’t have a clue about what is going to happen once these cards are released.
First off, don't talk down to me, as it's not only clear I'm your senior in terms of age, but also in terms of the game itself and its associated design.
We are not talking about “just format variance” or little side formats or UNCommander. If that is what it was nobody would mind it. The way WotC is doing this they are forcing EVERYBODY playing Commander games to deal with this garbage because everything is thrown on the same pile. You’ll never again be able to sit down with strangers joining your game without addressing this issue.
Which, as I correctly pointed out, is also true of cEDH, UNCommander and any other 'not to everyones taste' elements of the game. These cards are no different to any other argument, wether it be silver borders, gold borders, proxies, alternate arts or mechanical concepts like land destruction.
That I can speak to that pattern is because I know 'exactly' how this plays out, and I'm all for more diversity and an increased player base, because hopefully it means more players celebrating their collective interests rather than self-entitled, spoilt brats trying to bully others out of enjoying a hobby.
If people wants these other IP’s games then make games for the other IP’s. Not **** up a game that has been there for 25+ years.
Just like the stack, removing mana burn, the introduction of Planeswalkers and ending of Extended was going to kill Magic, I find your rantings less doomsday, and more pompousgrandstanding...
I will talk down on you when you deserve to be talked down on, lmao.
You are not my senior in anything and you have no clue what is going on. If you can’t even understand how the stack, removing mana burn, planeswalkers, etc... all changes WITHIN the game... are of a completely different nature than the crap they are pulling now, then that instantly excludes you from being taken seriously in a conversation. Good stories though buddy
Here's hoping Sol Ring gets printed in the LoTR set as the One Ring. That flavour text would be very suitable.
That actually would be pretty good.
How would that be good?
The One Ring is a unique item. Let’s call it legendary. A Sol Ring is an artifact that three out of four people slap on the table in turn one in the average game of Commander
Wow dude, I think it's time everybody stepped away from their computer. It's just cardboard with ******* dragons and fairies on them.
The idea that people cannot have opinions or criticisms about something they enjoy is asinine at best and stupid's second cousin at worst.
You can have an opinion, but it's still 7 pages discussing opinions about cardboards having gandalf on it and not random grey wizard. People are losing their minds way too much about this. Everybody needs to chill a bit, it's just a ******* game.
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there are a lot of situations where you really can't. not if you, you know... actually want to play magic. if i have a problem with what these mean for the game, and it breaks my immersion in the game space, sure i can choose to walk away from that pod. except maybe now i don't get to play magic all night, maybe the event doesn't fire because there aren't enough participants, maybe i'm now cheated out of prizes because someone knew how much these are despised and that that some people will actively quit. what do you do on turn 8 when one of the 99 is inquisitor eisenhorn? pack up and go? why is that okay to force onto me?
at the same time the people who choose to run these are going to be sitting there going what the ****, these are legit cards, why do these people not want to play me. how is this fair to me. why is that okay to force onto them?
i read a point someone made where it basically says, why is it okay for magic to borrow from all these other IP's and just slap them onto a card, but its not okay for the jedi to come save the day at helms deep or something. there's a reason why an homage is okay, why borrowing with a twist is okay. you see it in wow constantly, its in 40k, its even already in magic and its a fine concept. it takes something and gives it an in universe twist, keeps it relevant to the experience.
this whole concept is just creatively bankrupt. why make innistrad when you can just make the walking dead set, why bother with phyrexians when we can just print up some adeptus mechanicus machine cult cards. **** the weatherlight saga, we're replacing it with the enterprise d. it wears away so much of the experience. so much at the game. it basically says the cards don't matter, the name magic the gathering matters... yet we keep blurring what magic the gathering IS. we don't play magic to play pokemon, or dragonball, or whatever else, we play magic because of the flavor that is magic the gathering.
there's also the bull***** distribution model. put it in a secret lair and it turns out to be good? better hope you had the cash and foresight to buy in! missed the initial printing? well you're probably ****ed because of licensing, have fun! it creates a secondary reserve list and further disenfranchises newer players who might find these cards and think they're cool, but then not be able to obtain them. it also exploits older competitive ones by making them feel forced into a purchase to stay relevant. we already get this from newly released sets - but we can acquire those cards through means such as, well playing magic. limited, draft, pack cracking, all ways to build the collection. all ways to get cards reprint sometimes to make them more available.
skins are okay, they're not mechanically unique cards - and on top of that, well as was mentioned... they're rare. in the past 11 years i've encountered just 2 people playing altered cards. their names were the same (the cards), the art was just different. a demonic tutor with the joker on it can still FEEL like a demonic tutor. if i announce i'm casting demonic tutor people still know what that does. a card named the joker, with a mechanical uniqueness, feels extremely out of place in an established universe.
but this is all nothing new. the walking dead sparked intense backlash, and fierce debate, for weeks. it still sold. the problems were discussed and all there, but people felt the need to buy in for various reasons such as fear of missing out (FOMO), or the idea that the cards would be strong (with some of them seeing legacy play even). so really, the entire concept of this crossover ***** is just exploitation and unless we actively speak with our wallets nothing will change.
the cardboard crack comic is extremely relevant. some would argue it isn't. it'll never get to that point. it doesn't seem like it will right now, but what about in 5 years? how about 10? where will we be in 15? will the game even exist? will anyone seek it out any more if it doesn't even have its own identity? its being treated like its no different than monopoly, that at its heart its still just monopoly despite whats slapped on the board. games like that though, they don't have a fierce identity, they don't have over two decades of flavor and lore. would it be star wars if the jedi were actually my little ponies that pilot helicopters and turn into werewolves or is it just a ******* mess at that point?
other games have done this. other games have failed. other games have been oriented around franchises in other mediums. those games have failed. magic has a tried and proven model that's worked for almost 30 years, and yet decisions are being made that act like its a brand new game without a history, without a history that worked.
all for a short term profit.
its okay to be critical of the things we enjoy my guy. especially when we've enjoyed those things and put money into them, for in some cases decades. even more so when those things are headed in directions that, well... we don't enjoy.
if not discussed here, then where? do you just accept it in silence and keep pumping money and time into something that went in a direction you dislike just so you can keep playing it? if it moves in that direction in the future, but you enjoy playing it and your existing cards are still useable, what do you do? do you keep going? do you get outclassed? do you resign and give up on the thing that you love despite having the tools to play the game?
and if you do walk away, from discussing it, from participating, how is that good for the game? how is that good for the community either? at a certain point it just dies.
the only thing that will kill magic is magic. many feel this is a step in that direction, and would prefer to not see that happen. there's nothing wrong with that.
First off, don't talk down to me, as it's not only clear I'm your senior in terms of age, but also in terms of the game itself and its associated design.
Which, as I correctly pointed out, is also true of cEDH, UNCommander and any other 'not to everyones taste' elements of the game. These cards are no different to any other argument, wether it be silver borders, gold borders, proxies, alternate arts or mechanical concepts like land destruction.
That I can speak to that pattern is because I know 'exactly' how this plays out, and I'm all for more diversity and an increased player base, because hopefully it means more players celebrating their collective interests rather than self-entitled, spoilt brats trying to bully others out of enjoying a hobby.
Just like the stack, removing mana burn, the introduction of Planeswalkers and ending of Extended was going to kill Magic, I find your rantings less doomsday, and more pompous grandstanding...
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
I'm asking because that's pretty much the granddaddy of crossover IPs in one platform. If you say you like SSB then you can essentially say dick all about MTG and its forthcoming developmental plans.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
You don't find that to be a disingenuous comparison? Seems to me that there's a difference in terms of context and expectations of what the games are. And incidentally, I started disliking SSB the more they broadened the pool of characters outside the core Nintendo/Mario cohort because it felt dissonant to me. But I also don't have much investment in that game so your mileage may vary. Regardless, one can like cross-IP blending in some contexts and not others, it's not an all or nothing thing.
I generally don't love fourth wall breaking in media, but sometimes in some contexts it can elevate the experience. Liking a concept doesn't mean you have to like it applied in all contexts.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Chandra Nalaar is the next DLC character for SSB Ultimate. Release to be accompanied by a secret lair with a Bowser reskin of Yidaro, Wandering Monster. You heard it here first.
The crossover content in SSB is contained to SSB though. I can choose to play SSB or Zelda. Link being in SSB does not lessen my experience of playing any of the Zelda games. But the same is not true for Magic. As long as the format allows it, anyone can play any card they want.
Imagine Bowser, Peach and the villager or whoever is now part of the Zelda universe and they walk around in BotW and all future games. I mean, some players may not mind it, or even like it, but others will definitely say "What the hell, Nintendo?!", rightfully so.
Or if Star Trek was suddenly canonized into the Star Wars universe. It's the same thing, because it isn't contained. It would affect all future installments of either IP.
Note that I am not talking about these crossovers being canon, because they won't. But the issue is that both are comparable in terms of how the franchise is consumed. Star Wars and Star Trek are movies with a narrative and worldbuilding, while Magic is a game showcasing certain cards of the universe. No single Magic match is canon, but at least it's all Magic. Until, with the new universes beyond, it's not anymore.
It worked for Marvel, but that's because superheroes are their own brands and the worldbuilding was... there. As such they could be easily consolidated into one setting. It's not easy to consolidate Warhammer into the Magic universe, at least not any easier (or controversial) than consolidating Star Wars into Star Trek.
I think this is an important point. This new move bears the danger of eroding the brand. The effects will be subtle but probably affect how many players enter the game and how many stay. It's not so much that people will not necessarily like it and thus not get into it or drop out. It's just that the game isn't particularly recognizable anymore. It's not that you can point out any particular instance where this move directly hurt the game, but it may lead to a death of thousand unnoticed papercuts.
And when numbers drop, corporate will take even more desperate measures to try and save the brand, alienating more of their established palyer base while confusing new players as the game pulls in multiple different directions.
I don't have the numbers and I'm just a rando with a keyboard so what the hell to I even know, but the past years Magic hasn't felt particularly healthy, and I don't mean in terms of raw numbers of players but in terms of how likely the brand is able to survive itself in the upcoming years. So many business decisions just reek of desperation as if Hasbro is aware (or just pessimistic) that Magic likely won't last much longer and they just try to milk it for as much as they can before it's gone. There are no recent decisions or changes to the game that help its longevity. Instead they cut out things that kept Magic stable just to increase the output of product.
"People in the past have been wrong about Magic dying, therefore Magic will never die." is a pretty weird take. Magic will die, that's just the nature of things. The question is just when and how it will happen.
The stack and the removal of mana burn did not kill Magic because both were in truth measures to make Magic more robust and helped its longevity. Everyone who knew what they were talking about knew that neither was bad for the game. The only people who complained about it were the usual "they're dumbing down the game" crowd. Planeswalkers didn't kill Magic because it was really just a new (minor) card type that didn't fundamentally change how Magic was played.
But this is different because it has far reaching -and irreversible- consequences not just to some people who don't like the change, but also to potential new players. It not only changes the experience of the game itself, but also how it is perceived from the outside.
Will it kill Magic? Hell if I know. Humans are absolutely terrible at predicting the future, so I won't even try. But it wouldn't surprise me if it did. If it will kill Magic it won't be because 90% of the player base decides to leave the game. It will happen over the course of years as the effects will be felt. And by the time the downwards spiral has started people will blame other things for the downfall of Magic, things that may have contributed to it, but not started it.
There is a big difference in choosing not to buy this UB stuff and leaving a table. It is one thing to be emotionally invested in the game, but how much is healthy anyway? Like if we are getting so triggered about a foreign Ip getting some cards in our beloved game that it gets us so mad that we quit and stop playing with other people?
If you are really not enjoying the game anymore why are you still playing it? are you in an abusive relationship with WotC?
To me all this reaction is overblown and then shows a lot of issues about how and why we engage with this game. Does really a decission like this has to make us so unhappy? does it really destroys the experience?
Or maybe is just internet era drama where we have to get all up in arms over everything. Either way I really think this doesn't take away anything from the actual game, the immersion argument seems weird given than the magic universe is already all over the place, from tolkien influence in Dominaria, to steampunk in Kaladesh, to lovecraft in zendikar eldrazi's and then all the other planes that borrow from pop culture.
My guess is that in the future there would be a Non UB format for commander where is the only significant format that will get to play with this cards anyway.
Super Smash Bros. was literally made from the start to be a crossover though.
This is something that I personally massively hate. Its a serious disconnect. Luckily its considerably more rare to encounter.
I agree its going to bring in new players and I agree its going to be a success. But will MTG history still be relevant or will it be overwhelmed by Marvel and other Comic Book lores? Will new players be learning and building decks around the stories of the Weatherlight, of Urza...the Ravnica Guilds and so on or will it be a case of big-name pop culture icons that have nothing to do with MTG getting their stories told? Time will tell.
Referencing or basing off of real-life Mythology or Culture is a very common aspect of Fantasy since its inception. To take Dominaria...MTG took Tolkien and D&D asthetics and ideas and used them to build a unique, extremely lore-rich setting with some of the best fantasy stories of its time. While unconfirmed, its looking like the Universes Beyond products are just going to get dumped into the game wholesale.
I don't even think artistically they'll get changed to look like they fit the setting more.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
That actually would be pretty good.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
By that logic, you are saying that Commander Legends, for instance, should be treated as not allowed in commander, because it wasn't in standard.
Please don't post flawed reasoning, in this case "If that was really true, they would be legal in Standard", and then deny what you wrote. I don't give a crap about Universes Beyond, but saying "If that was really true, they would be legal in Standard" as a test for how much Wizards believes in their product is B.S., and you know it. If everything released was for standard, there would be no Commander Decks each year.
What a HUGE missed opportunity If that rumor ends up being true.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Will this really bring in players though? It seems more likely this will bring in random buyers more than anything else.
Seems to me that it's far more likely that fans of LotR and 40k are more likely to buy the cards that feature their favorite characters, scenes, etc. to collect more of the thing they love rather than learning to play the game that they are featured on. I'm sure many in those fandoms are of the nerdy variety and know Magic exists, likely having seen it played at some point. I don't believe Magic incorporating these franchises will bring in new players, but instead just extra buyers.
This feels more like a quick way to get some cash in the short term while forgoing the long term, I base this on Magic's current personality in the last couple of years. There are FAR more quick FOMO kind of products than ever. This kind of attitude I feel is hurting the game, and based on the bannings and the card power lately that is my evidence.
Personally, I foresee many buying this because of their favorite IP, but not stick around once they no longer see that IP anymore. Sure, some may join, but many will also leave for this. Honestly, feels like a wash to me.
If these products were reprints of existing cards with those franchises arts on them I wouldn't mind it, but an entire set and deck series for them? To me that goes too far. I will not be buying any of that product. If a single happens to catch my eye then maybe I'll buy them. The 40Kommander decks better have amazing reprints or I will not buy it whatsoever. I don't care if there is a $200 trap god 40k card in them, I will not.
The idea that people cannot have opinions or criticisms about something they enjoy is asinine at best and stupid's second cousin at worst.
That was a crossover of all Nintendo franchises at first, at its very core it literally started as a crossover and that was the point. As of late though I do not enjoy seeing characters like Cloud, Ryu, Sephiroth, Joker, and other characters like them. There are far more Nintendo characters they could use (Midna, Imp Midna, Geno, Waluigi, Birdo, other Mario villains, different versions of Ganandorf, Sunshine Mario, hundreds of Pokemon, etc) and other characters that would fit within the style (Zero (Mega Man), X (Mega Man), Sigma, Shadow the Hedgehog, Tails, etc.) Sonic was acceptable to a degree and even Mega Man as one is a legendary rival to Nintendo and has history with them and Mega Man was on Nintendo consoles for a long time. Castlevania was also this way.
The problem with characters like Cloud, Ryu, Sephiroth, and others is the asthetic they bring. They don't match really anything going on. Sooner or later you'll see far more non-Nintendo characters than Nintendo ones soon, at that point you might as well not call it SSB, but that's my opinion. I stopped playing SSB by the third game that came out as I wasn't having fun with it anymore.
Kingdom Hearts is a crossover between Disney, Final Fantasy, and a random C-class anime story. KH3 lacking Final Fantasy (until the DLC) to focus even more on the incredibly confusing subpar story was exceptionally stupid and if they suddenly went "Hey guys, here's Manny the Mammoth from Ice Age" you'd be like "Huh.....that's neither Disney, FF, or terrible anime bull crap."
When it comes to crossovers you have to set a boundary sometimes within the context of the franchise. For SSB you have to take into account Nintendo and its asthetics, For KH3 its certain companies/franchises, and for Magic it was acceptable with some silly silver bordered Hasbro company IP cards, but then it got worse with The Walking Dead and then they decided to jump the shark with this.
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
I just hope they select an IP I'd be interested in.
Frankly I just wanted a Water World from the shortlist and more Blue and Blue/Green lands that depict oceanic biomes (coral reefs, kelp forests, hydrothermal vents, shipwrecks, etc.) which evidently is too outrageous for creative to implement. Return to Kamigawa, a MTG IP, is unfathomable. A sea monster Gishath-level commander - unlikely. But UB is perfectly acceptable. It's this concept that bothers me more than crossovers. That reasonable, in-house or on-theme requests are unobtainable.
I'll just keep an open mind and let people enjoy the game their way. It's probably their way of bringing people into MTG and isn't much different from Oricas. The game is already making records though, but I guess it's all about new boundaries. We'll see...
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Yes. I want The Fonz as a legendary creature and his Jacket as an Equipment.
I will talk down on you when you deserve to be talked down on, lmao.
You are not my senior in anything and you have no clue what is going on. If you can’t even understand how the stack, removing mana burn, planeswalkers, etc... all changes WITHIN the game... are of a completely different nature than the crap they are pulling now, then that instantly excludes you from being taken seriously in a conversation. Good stories though buddy
How would that be good?
The One Ring is a unique item. Let’s call it legendary. A Sol Ring is an artifact that three out of four people slap on the table in turn one in the average game of Commander
You can have an opinion, but it's still 7 pages discussing opinions about cardboards having gandalf on it and not random grey wizard. People are losing their minds way too much about this. Everybody needs to chill a bit, it's just a ******* game.