-These cards will be legal.
-Everyone will have access to them.
-No player has the right to force another player to play the game their way.
-Any player may immediately leave any game they choose.
If you're butthurt about someone playing one of the thousands of cards legal in format (XYZ) you're absolutely within your rights to get up and leave. You are in no way allowed to force other people to do jack *****, and chances are that all of the reasonable people at your table are just going to stick around and enjoy a fun game of EDH with the cool new cards while you sulk off on your own. Then you're stuck in the position where you need to insert yourself into another table and repeat the process of trying to force them to play the game your way and potentially failing.
And for what gain? Ask yourself what you even hope to accomplish by gatekeeping certain cards out of the games you're in. Are you the RC now? Are these cards really hurting you? Is your mild annoyance more important than the joy of others, or even your own ability to play the game with the average person?
I'm really confused by this. How are all of you interacting with people where walking away respectfully from something you don't want to be a part of is so outlandish a concept?
Basically this. I'm baffled by the fact that some people here consider "not playing a game with someone" to be mean or gatekeepy.
In my playgroup we tend to play different games throughout a board game evening and not all games are for everyone. And sometimes someone says "oh, you're playing <game> now? I'll pass this round." and then they do something else until we start the next game after that. Now call me naive, but I would have assumed that adults all around the world take a similar approach. "Oh, you're playing silverbordered commander? Eh, not my thing. I'll pass this round." is -to me- a perfectly reasonable thing to say. I guess commander is a special case because the games take longer, but even then you could communicate that beforehand.
Oh and on the note of gatekeeping, I have a complete Silver Bordered EDH deck that prior to lockdown, I used to bring to my LGS and force into Commander games. I say force because by it's very nature, people immediately refuse to play with me because "I dont want to be forced to do the Hokey Pokey." This was an actual line dropped on me once and the sheer IGNORANCE of it left me speechless. But take my example and apply it to Johnny, LotR fanboy who has just built his first Magic deck and heard that this local comics and gaming store has people playing Magic, so he goes and takes his deck to play. But when he shows up to play, instead of maybe playing a game or two or if not willing to play against him offering a spare deck to play a couple games of Magic with him players instead give the above vehement rebuttal and oust him from the group "because Im.not playing with those cards" as I see SOOOO many people commenting, YOU are gatekeeping and YOU are part of the problem.
I'm not sure I follow your argument. You forced people into playing a commander format with you and... What is the takeaway here besides the fact that you're a jerk about it?
The gatekeeper analogy continues to be absurd. There are tons of playgroups that only play commander. Imagine little Timmy wants to play draft. Wow what a bunch of gatekeepers. Most players don't want to play with proxies. Sheer unimaginable that 99% of all Magic players are "proxy card" gatekeepers.
Once again, nobody is keeping you out of an activity or group. (As per the definition of gatekeeping) All that happens is that you propose an activity (or group) and others decline to join.
The gatekeeper analogy continues to be absurd. There are tons of playgroups that only play commander. Imagine little Timmy wants to play draft. Wow what a bunch of gatekeepers. Most players don't want to play with proxies. Sheer unimaginable that 99% of all Magic players are "proxy card" gatekeepers.
Once again, nobody is keeping you out of an activity or group. (As per the definition of gatekeeping) All that happens is that you propose an activity (or group) and others decline to join.
The problem is with the definition people use. Someone is going to propose a game of commander and a number of people will join or not join. Then when they see that someone is playing these cards some people will go "Oh, we don't allow those cards." This is gatekeeping, it's an unspoken extra modifier on what is allowed. No one gets up set when you say "Who wants to play standard" and you don't allow someone to play their modern burn deck. However, when you say "Who wants to play standard" then sit down with a player, see their opening play and go "We don't allow Rogues here it's unfun" then you are now gatekeeping. Even spelling it out makes it gatekeeping because you are modifying something everyone understands and accepts into something that has expressly exclude others. "Who wants to play Standard, no Rogues, those suck."
If you're butthurt about someone playing one of the thousands of cards legal in format (XYZ) you're absolutely within your rights to get up and leave. You are in no way allowed to force other people to do jack *****, and chances are that all of the reasonable people at your table are just going to stick around and enjoy a fun game of EDH with the cool new cards while you sulk off on your own. Then you're stuck in the position where you need to insert yourself into another table and repeat the process of trying to force them to play the game your way and potentially failing.
Thats the idea of ANY format in existence.
You can put any cards on there you dont like and you declare as to powerful or outright not fun for you.
If you build a deck for that specific format, you dont expect people to ignore the format.
For some reason people expect to be in a group of players that are perfectly aligned with their wishes for a game and format ...
The entire point of a casual EDH playgroup is that they all agree to play the game the way they wish to play.
If a specific card is unwanted, the playgroup will just ban it. If the playgroup does not want sexually explicit alternate arts, they will ban them.
If a playgroup is incredible annoyed by any other magic card, its gone, just like that.
Thats how it worked forever and ever, the entire point of a casual EDH table is that the playgroup makes the final rules, the "official" banlist and rules are just a starting point for the majority, but hardly the be all end all.
Everyone can endure stuff they dislike to some degree, till a breaking point.
If you really dont enjoy games with specific cards involved, its perfectly fine to tell your playgroup, and they can either ignore your pledge or adapt to it.
The vast majority of people will adapt their playgroup and then you dont play specific cards anymore, unless they really want to, in which case its a conflict you cant solve unless someone is giving up on their stance.
Basically any casual EDH player i found has at least 2 decks if not way more.
Only very new players bring just 1 rough deck to the table (and then they are not part of an established playgroup at that point).
Some enjoy competitive EDH decks, others want super casual variations of decks, there are even some players that enjoy a games that are purely about the artwork on cards (a guy has a deck for each block of magic, themed about the sets like Ravnica, Kamigawa, Apokalypse and so on, they share decks with newbie players if they have to, as it opens the game up for completely new and fresh inspiration that the new players never remotely thought of).
----
Neither is a bad person, nobody is part of a "problem", conflict of interest and different perspectives of how people enjoy their game is nothing new and the sheer fact that some are completely unable to solve such conflicts by speaking about it without being pitchy is telling about their experiences in playgroups.
If someone has a very real issue with some cards or artworks, they should tell the people they play with and the issue gets resolved, either way.
The problem is with the definition people use. Someone is going to propose a game of commander and a number of people will join or not join. Then when they see that someone is playing these cards some people will go "Oh, we don't allow those cards." This is gatekeeping, it's an unspoken extra modifier on what is allowed. No one gets up set when you say "Who wants to play standard" and you don't allow someone to play their modern burn deck. However, when you say "Who wants to play standard" then sit down with a player, see their opening play and go "We don't allow Rogues here it's unfun" then you are now gatekeeping. Even spelling it out makes it gatekeeping because you are modifying something everyone understands and accepts into something that has expressly exclude others. "Who wants to play Standard, no Rogues, those suck."
Irrelevant. It's still the same thing. Just because there's no official name for a format doesn't not make it a format. A format is by definition a set of cards allowed to be played in a defined environment. *cough calling non-official formats not real formats is actually gatekeeping as per the definition by the way, because you are excluding certain formats from being seen as equal to other formats cough*
Also I don't really see that above situation to be particularly realistic. When a new player will join a playgroup (or rather is invited to one) there is likely already some information about what product they have purchased and/or want to purchase. In a store environment people will likely still play the current match and then simply not play again. Claiming that people will be dicks about not wanting to play a certain format is about the same strategy used to paint "SJW's" and vegetarians as these extremely unreasonable and judgemental people, when in reality that's not true except in extreme cases.
Even if it was, though, still not gatekeeping. Being a dick doesn't mean you exclude someone from an activity or group. If someone were to somehow take political control of their local store and set up a bunch of rules of how to play that everone has to follow, then maybe it'd be true. But that is an absurd fantasy. Anyone can play Magic however they like as long as they find a willing playgroup.
Another problem I have with Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games like Universal Fighting System by Jasco games (re-branded as UniVersus) and Weiß Schwarz by Bushiroad is that instead of these licensed properties having their own Paper Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game with it's own unique gameplay mechanics they're forced to share the same gameplay mechanics with other licensed properties within the same Paper Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game that plays nothing like the source material they're based upon. It feels too watered down and generic with low learning curves for players who struggle with games being too complicated to learn. Less complexity equals more sales however something too complex won't sell at all as we've already seen with a lot of failed card games within the past couple of decades that missed the mark due to poor marketing and advertising. The sooner the Pay-to-Win business model changes from loot crates to something more convenient that isn't Online / Digital exclusive the better. Unfortunately we haven't found a real solution for it yet especially since now the ongoing pandemic has dramatically changed the paradigm.
The interesting thing I find about Weiss is that they incorporated Adventure Time into their card game even though AT already had/has a card game with Card Wars. For the longest time I just thought that Weiss was just the "anime card game" in that you saw a bunch of various anime show up there, but then Adventure Time showed up and I had no idea what it was anymore.
I don't believe Magic really needs to be doing this kind of crossover. As much as I hate TWD Secret Lair at the very least it was compact, I bought the MLP one and I figured that was fine as a strange one off, Hasbro owning both, their abilities are silly, and it was for charity, but it was pretty clear when TWD happened and how it was done (black border, eternal legal, etc) that this was going to happen more and more and that they had opened a box they shouldn't have. With the various rumors about them doing more SLs like that at the time (Harry Potter with Stryxhaven and others) this isn't surprising, but it is highly disappointing.
D&D is one thing, and even I'm not 100% a fan of that per se, but at least they do share some similarities, but with Lord of the Rings, Warhammer, and who knows what other abominations will take place (I can already see a Yugioh card in Magic) this does not seem to bode well for the game.
If the 40kommander decks are not filled with good reprints and strictly all about 40k then I will be skipping out on those decks for the first time in a long time. I'm just not interested in them and the same could be said about LotR, I have no real attachment to that franchise. If they did have ones with franchises I cared about I'd still not enjoy seeing them.
What I don't understand is why Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro couldn't let the MTG Community decide on what IP Crossovers they want instead of the company deciding for them like through an online poll or survey that isn't restricted to Social Media outlets like Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook. By all technicalities it's OUR game and WE should have a say in this as well. It was actually an idea I had for a thread I was thinking of posting here on MTG Salvation with franchise ideas like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ghostbusters, Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, Thundercats, etc. where whoever got the most votes or tied for the most votes would've been what IP Crossover Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro would've added to MTG. Given how divided the MTG Community is it doesn't appear that they want to go that route unfortunately.
It would also be a step in the right direction for Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro to help strengthen their public relations with the MTG Community which hasn't exactly been good over the last few years in regards to how they've been managing the game as of late. Maybe If they didn't take all criticism as being negative but also seeing the positive for what we could achieve together within the MTG Community. In the past they used to be more willing but now I think Social Media has tainted that in a lot of ways. It's rather unfortunate because we should be able to see eye to eye in all of this instead of jumping the gun and thinking one decision is best for all without any sort of given stamp of approval from the community. Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro appears to be in the attitude of "We don't care what your opinions are about what IP Crossovers we choose as long as it prints money!"
Private Mod Note
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
An honest question for players who object to this based on its chance to ruin one's immersion in the game's story: How does it make you feel when someone plays an altered card that touches on another IP? Is Dr. Doom on a Force of Will similarly jarring? Is the rarity of this enough to make it negligible as a concern?
An honest question for players who object to this based on its chance to ruin one's immersion in the game's story: How does it make you feel when someone plays an altered card that touches on another IP? Is Dr. Doom on a Force of Will similarly jarring? Is the rarity of this enough to make it negligible as a concern?
Altered cards where the art is completely replaced are VERY rare in my experience. I think I've seen less than 10 actually in play in a game I was in in my entire MTG playing time where it was actually a different character on the card (I've seen a ton of the old borderless extension alters etc). Plus, they weren't allowed to make the card unrecognizable, so when they cast it they'd say "cast Force of Will" not "cast Dr. Doom," so it was an incredibly minor thing and not an issue at all.
And funny you should mention this, cause I actually played at a weekly tavern draft where one of the players had his playmat featuring extremely scantily clad, but technically not nude, anime girls, and all his basic lands were altered to also have similarly barely clothed anime girls on them. Guess what? It was uncomfortable to play against and made magic not as fun whenever I got paired against him (and I'm a straight dude, I can't imagine how cringey it was for any players who are women who got paired against this guy). But hey I guess WOTC can go a "monster girl harem" (or whatever that show is called) IP crossover and it's no big deal cause I can just choose not to play with those cards.
Edit - I should say, it was uncomfortable both because I didn't want to be dealing with body pillows on cards in public, but also because that's not what I signed up to deal with when I played magic. It would be one thing if I was playing an anime crossover card game or something, but I wasn't.
What I don't understand is why Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro couldn't let the MTG Community decide on what IP Crossovers they want instead of the company deciding for them like through an online poll or survey that isn't restricted to Social Media outlets like Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook. By all technicalities it's OUR game and WE should have a say in this as well.
This idea sounds great and easy but if you stop and think for a few seconds its obviously impossible. If they were doing crossovers with strictly their own IPs then this could function but because they are doing it with outside IPs there is far too much prework to do something like this.
Say they had 4 choices(not a lot but not too few) they would have to sound out the holders of each of those IPs without a promise that they would actually execute any of them. Again this could be mitigated by working with a group that has many IPs and getting them to buy into the idea of "your fans" deciding which of their IPs is worth doing a crossover. But think about that from their side and you quickly realize what a terrible idea even trying this is. They could do the poll then work with the IP holders but such discussions take time. And they already take time to create their own product. So how would the fan base react to "Vote on this poll in 2021 to see what MTG crossover we'll do in 2030" That's being generous with their timeline as its more likely "Vote on this poll in 2021, the results of which will be kept secret as both a surprise and a get out of jail free card when we can't get the most requested IP to agree to let us do a crossover. Also, we may never bring this up again so don't actually expect us to talk about a release date." Then in 2026 at a panel, they finally admit that the only IP that wanted to do crossover was so disliked in the poll that they scraped the entire idea.
An honest question for players who object to this based on its chance to ruin one's immersion in the game's story: How does it make you feel when someone plays an altered card that touches on another IP? Is Dr. Doom on a Force of Will similarly jarring? Is the rarity of this enough to make it negligible as a concern?
Not really, that's their property and they chose to do something with it, though I would wonder why they would effectively ruin $50+ to have Dr. Doom on it, but again their property.
An honest question for players who object to this based on its chance to ruin one's immersion in the game's story: How does it make you feel when someone plays an altered card that touches on another IP? Is Dr. Doom on a Force of Will similarly jarring? Is the rarity of this enough to make it negligible as a concern?
Not really, that's their property and they chose to do something with it, though I would wonder why they would effectively ruin $50+ to have Dr. Doom on it, but again their property.
If we are going to switch IPs for Force of Will, it is going to be of Will Smith either in his Fresh Prince or ID4 role with the flavor text:
"This is the story
All about how
your spell got flipped
turned upside down
so I'd like you to take a moment
and sit right there
and move this card that's countered into your graveyard right over there"
Already thought up of some pre-existing MTG game mechanics that could be utilized for IP Crossovers in Universal Beyond:
Ninjutsu + Mutate = Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Morph + Megamorph = Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
Cat Tribal with Sword of Omens as Equip card = Thundercats
Crew + Vehicle = Voltron
Flanking + Banding + Horsemanship = Monty Python and the Holy Grail?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Already thought up of some pre-existing MTG game mechanics that could be utilized for IP Crossovers in Universal Beyond:
Ninjutsu + Mutate = Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Morph + Megamorph = Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
Cat Tribal with Sword of Omens as Equip card = Thundercats
Crew + Vehicle = Voltron
Flanking + Banding + Horsemanship = Monty Python and the Holy Grail?
No transform for Transformers? Sure, Wizard's own Transformers TCG died, but it could still see the light again here.
True I completely forgot about Transform for Transformers.
I also meant to add Legend of Zelda on the list cause one of my friends tried to design his own Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game off the franchise based on the Harry Potter TCG though sadly it was eventually discontinued. Link and Princess Zelda are shoe-in's for Elf Tribal, the Gorons for Giant Tribal, and even Zoras for Merfolk possibly?
Dinosaur Tribe = Jurassic Park
Homunculus Tribe = Fullmetal Alchemist?
Kithkin or Dwarf Tribes = Jim Henson's The Dark Crystal
Atog Tribe = Gremlins franchise with Gizmo
Zombie and Skeleton Tribes = Tim Burton's Beetlejuice and The Nightmare Before Christmas
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
The tables I play at and regular playgroup will ban all this universe beyond crap straight away just like TWD. That will suck for people coming to the store with these cards in their deck not being able to get in a game.
Then it sounds like the problem there would stem from your playgroup, no?
Sounds to me like the problem is Wizards making a mockery of the game and creating the false impression that this garbage will actually be accepted by everyone, no?
You better believe there will be a LOT of playgroups who will want to have nothing to do with ‘universe beyond’.
"Sorry new guy, but you can't play with anyone here because we collectively decided to not accept those Warhammer cards that are in your deck. I know it's not fair to you, but Wizards forced us to gatekeep you out of our group, so really it's their fault that you can't play, not ours."
That's more or less what you sound like from my perspective. You're free to disallow anyone with those cards from playing games with you, but I'm free to think that your playgroup is being whiny and immature for doing so.
Exactly. The new guy, or any guy for that matter, needs to understand there is a line to be drawn as far as what we will accept Wizards of the Coast does with our game. If they decide to sell out on what the game has always been and make a flat out mockery out of it then it needs to be clear there are people who will not allow that as opposed to your sheepish conformist mentality of blindly accepting whatever WotC tells you to like. I’m free to think that is having no standard and being weak to the bone.
An honest question for players who object to this based on its chance to ruin one's immersion in the game's story: How does it make you feel when someone plays an altered card that touches on another IP? Is Dr. Doom on a Force of Will similarly jarring? Is the rarity of this enough to make it negligible as a concern?
In my experience it’s too rare to matter.
There once was someone playing decks with naked boob manga girls drawn on all of his basic lands and some other similar stupid alters which he refused to replace. He ended up taking his talents elsewhere because the majority of players simply refused to play him as a result.
People unironically crying sheeple at the idea that spiderman pjs ruin the concept of pjs is some of the most hilarious discourse I've ever seen on this forum, and that's a really high bar considering how many people here have blue lives matter signatures.
6 pages of whining--and counting--on something we know so little about, and amounts to little more than official alters or maybe gun skins? *sigh* Never change, mtgs.
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Latest proof this forum is a trashfire:
Your authoritarianism will be the reason the company suffers another 60M in losses.
Exactly. The new guy, or any guy for that matter, needs to understand there is a line to be drawn as far as what we will accept Wizards of the Coast does with our game. If they decide to sell out on what the game has always been and make a flat out mockery out of it then it needs to be clear there are people who will not allow that as opposed to your sheepish conformist mentality of blindly accepting whatever WotC tells you to like. I’m free to think that is having no standard and being weak to the bone.
As opposed to you telling us all what to like and blindly conforming to your vision... That just sounds like trading one master for another.
I'm fine with these crossover cards. More players and diversity of interests is better for everyone. If they have their own little side-format that's fine, as that's no different to UNCommander, cEDH or Commander Draft - it's just format variance.
Don't like the cards, don't buy them. Simple. Not scream at those, in person or online, that might be wanting to learn the mechanics of MTG through something they're already familiar with, or those who get one gifted to them by a loved one because of that other IP, or just Mr Casual, who might actually like giant IP crossovers.
I get the purist mentality, there's nobody stopping you playing a WOTC-Only card list if you want, but nobody is entitled to give out orders on either side of the fence, and expressing someones individuality through their interests - even if that's contrary to yours - isn't 'sheepishness', it's good self-esteem.
Now, where's my Morrigan Aensland with Vampire creature typing - I neeeeedddd thisssss....
Exactly. The new guy, or any guy for that matter, needs to understand there is a line to be drawn as far as what we will accept Wizards of the Coast does with our game. If they decide to sell out on what the game has always been and make a flat out mockery out of it then it needs to be clear there are people who will not allow that as opposed to your sheepish conformist mentality of blindly accepting whatever WotC tells you to like. I’m free to think that is having no standard and being weak to the bone.
As opposed to you telling us all what to like and blindly conforming to your vision... That just sounds like trading one master for another.
I'm fine with these crossover cards. More players and diversity of interests is better for everyone. If they have their own little side-format that's fine, as that's no different to UNCommander, cEDH or Commander Draft - it's just format variance.
Don't like the cards, don't buy them. Simple. Not scream at those, in person or online, that might be wanting to learn the mechanics of MTG through something they're already familiar with, or those who get one gifted to them by a loved one because of that other IP, or just Mr Casual, who might actually like giant IP crossovers.
I get the purist mentality, there's nobody stopping you playing a WOTC-Only card list if you want, but nobody is entitled to give out orders on either side of the fence, and expressing someones individuality through their interests - even if that's contrary to yours - isn't 'sheepishness', it's good self-esteem.
Now, where's my Morrigan Aensland with Vampire creature typing - I neeeeedddd thisssss....
It is clear you don’t have a clue about what is going to happen once these cards are released.
We are not talking about “just format variance” or little side formats or UNCommander. If that is what it was nobody would mind it. The way WotC is doing this they are forcing EVERYBODY playing Commander games to deal with this garbage because everything is thrown on the same pile. You’ll never again be able to sit down with strangers joining your game without addressing this issue.
If people wants these other IP’s games then make games for the other IP’s. Not **** up a game that has been there for 25+ years.
Wow, people are so hurt by this, basically the equivalent of 10 years old arguing over which is the better console. You remind me of the bullies which used to mock other kids because of their hobbies.
And it is going to be even more shocking when this products have a large success and you see new players coming with their UB cards.
When all is said and done this products will bring new players, hope they are engaged and get more in to magic, I am going to welcomed them because sharing a hobby is nice, looking forward to teach them about the 25 years of magic history.
Wow, people are so hurt by this, basically the equivalent of 10 years old arguing over which is the better console. You remind me of the bullies which used to mock other kids because of their hobbies.
And it is going to be even more shocking when this products have a large success and you see new players coming with their UB cards.
When all is said and done this products will bring new players, hope they are engaged and get more in to magic, I am going to welcomed them because sharing a hobby is nice, looking forward to teach them about the 25 years of magic history.
this on endless levels
and Easily a would allow the crossover cards and to go one step further maybe even make new commander decks with them
Wow, people are so hurt by this, basically the equivalent of 10 years old arguing over which is the better console. You remind me of the bullies which used to mock other kids because of their hobbies.
I think that's quite the overstatement. There are people who don't enjoy this fairly radical change to the game (and for many reasons, some may think it breaks immersion, some may see it as a jump the shark moment, whatever the individual perception is) and won't engage with it. And others are excited by the possibilities and the change won't really impact how they interact with the game. No one's hurt, no one's bullying.
At worst, this is equivalent of arguing about whether one can/should skip the Edward Norton Hulk movie or Thor: the Dark World in an MCU rewatch. There's discussion on the merits, and ultimately most people will just quietly do what's best/fun for them and only a tiny number of maladjusted people will take it seriously enough to make bigger issue of it.
-These cards will be legal.
-Everyone will have access to them.
-No player has the right to force another player to play the game their way.
-Any player may immediately leave any game they choose.
If you're butthurt about someone playing one of the thousands of cards legal in format (XYZ) you're absolutely within your rights to get up and leave. You are in no way allowed to force other people to do jack *****, and chances are that all of the reasonable people at your table are just going to stick around and enjoy a fun game of EDH with the cool new cards while you sulk off on your own. Then you're stuck in the position where you need to insert yourself into another table and repeat the process of trying to force them to play the game your way and potentially failing.
And for what gain? Ask yourself what you even hope to accomplish by gatekeeping certain cards out of the games you're in. Are you the RC now? Are these cards really hurting you? Is your mild annoyance more important than the joy of others, or even your own ability to play the game with the average person?
Basically this. I'm baffled by the fact that some people here consider "not playing a game with someone" to be mean or gatekeepy.
In my playgroup we tend to play different games throughout a board game evening and not all games are for everyone. And sometimes someone says "oh, you're playing <game> now? I'll pass this round." and then they do something else until we start the next game after that. Now call me naive, but I would have assumed that adults all around the world take a similar approach. "Oh, you're playing silverbordered commander? Eh, not my thing. I'll pass this round." is -to me- a perfectly reasonable thing to say. I guess commander is a special case because the games take longer, but even then you could communicate that beforehand.
I'm not sure I follow your argument. You forced people into playing a commander format with you and... What is the takeaway here besides the fact that you're a jerk about it?
The gatekeeper analogy continues to be absurd. There are tons of playgroups that only play commander. Imagine little Timmy wants to play draft. Wow what a bunch of gatekeepers. Most players don't want to play with proxies. Sheer unimaginable that 99% of all Magic players are "proxy card" gatekeepers.
Once again, nobody is keeping you out of an activity or group. (As per the definition of gatekeeping) All that happens is that you propose an activity (or group) and others decline to join.
Thats the idea of ANY format in existence.
You can put any cards on there you dont like and you declare as to powerful or outright not fun for you.
If you build a deck for that specific format, you dont expect people to ignore the format.
For some reason people expect to be in a group of players that are perfectly aligned with their wishes for a game and format ...
The entire point of a casual EDH playgroup is that they all agree to play the game the way they wish to play.
If a specific card is unwanted, the playgroup will just ban it. If the playgroup does not want sexually explicit alternate arts, they will ban them.
If a playgroup is incredible annoyed by any other magic card, its gone, just like that.
Thats how it worked forever and ever, the entire point of a casual EDH table is that the playgroup makes the final rules, the "official" banlist and rules are just a starting point for the majority, but hardly the be all end all.
Everyone can endure stuff they dislike to some degree, till a breaking point.
If you really dont enjoy games with specific cards involved, its perfectly fine to tell your playgroup, and they can either ignore your pledge or adapt to it.
The vast majority of people will adapt their playgroup and then you dont play specific cards anymore, unless they really want to, in which case its a conflict you cant solve unless someone is giving up on their stance.
Basically any casual EDH player i found has at least 2 decks if not way more.
Only very new players bring just 1 rough deck to the table (and then they are not part of an established playgroup at that point).
Some enjoy competitive EDH decks, others want super casual variations of decks, there are even some players that enjoy a games that are purely about the artwork on cards (a guy has a deck for each block of magic, themed about the sets like Ravnica, Kamigawa, Apokalypse and so on, they share decks with newbie players if they have to, as it opens the game up for completely new and fresh inspiration that the new players never remotely thought of).
----
Neither is a bad person, nobody is part of a "problem", conflict of interest and different perspectives of how people enjoy their game is nothing new and the sheer fact that some are completely unable to solve such conflicts by speaking about it without being pitchy is telling about their experiences in playgroups.
If someone has a very real issue with some cards or artworks, they should tell the people they play with and the issue gets resolved, either way.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Irrelevant. It's still the same thing. Just because there's no official name for a format doesn't not make it a format. A format is by definition a set of cards allowed to be played in a defined environment. *cough calling non-official formats not real formats is actually gatekeeping as per the definition by the way, because you are excluding certain formats from being seen as equal to other formats cough*
Also I don't really see that above situation to be particularly realistic. When a new player will join a playgroup (or rather is invited to one) there is likely already some information about what product they have purchased and/or want to purchase. In a store environment people will likely still play the current match and then simply not play again. Claiming that people will be dicks about not wanting to play a certain format is about the same strategy used to paint "SJW's" and vegetarians as these extremely unreasonable and judgemental people, when in reality that's not true except in extreme cases.
Even if it was, though, still not gatekeeping. Being a dick doesn't mean you exclude someone from an activity or group. If someone were to somehow take political control of their local store and set up a bunch of rules of how to play that everone has to follow, then maybe it'd be true. But that is an absurd fantasy. Anyone can play Magic however they like as long as they find a willing playgroup.
Narrator: They won't.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
It would also be a step in the right direction for Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro to help strengthen their public relations with the MTG Community which hasn't exactly been good over the last few years in regards to how they've been managing the game as of late. Maybe If they didn't take all criticism as being negative but also seeing the positive for what we could achieve together within the MTG Community. In the past they used to be more willing but now I think Social Media has tainted that in a lot of ways. It's rather unfortunate because we should be able to see eye to eye in all of this instead of jumping the gun and thinking one decision is best for all without any sort of given stamp of approval from the community. Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro appears to be in the attitude of "We don't care what your opinions are about what IP Crossovers we choose as long as it prints money!"
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Altered cards where the art is completely replaced are VERY rare in my experience. I think I've seen less than 10 actually in play in a game I was in in my entire MTG playing time where it was actually a different character on the card (I've seen a ton of the old borderless extension alters etc). Plus, they weren't allowed to make the card unrecognizable, so when they cast it they'd say "cast Force of Will" not "cast Dr. Doom," so it was an incredibly minor thing and not an issue at all.
And funny you should mention this, cause I actually played at a weekly tavern draft where one of the players had his playmat featuring extremely scantily clad, but technically not nude, anime girls, and all his basic lands were altered to also have similarly barely clothed anime girls on them. Guess what? It was uncomfortable to play against and made magic not as fun whenever I got paired against him (and I'm a straight dude, I can't imagine how cringey it was for any players who are women who got paired against this guy). But hey I guess WOTC can go a "monster girl harem" (or whatever that show is called) IP crossover and it's no big deal cause I can just choose not to play with those cards.
Edit - I should say, it was uncomfortable both because I didn't want to be dealing with body pillows on cards in public, but also because that's not what I signed up to deal with when I played magic. It would be one thing if I was playing an anime crossover card game or something, but I wasn't.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Say they had 4 choices(not a lot but not too few) they would have to sound out the holders of each of those IPs without a promise that they would actually execute any of them. Again this could be mitigated by working with a group that has many IPs and getting them to buy into the idea of "your fans" deciding which of their IPs is worth doing a crossover. But think about that from their side and you quickly realize what a terrible idea even trying this is. They could do the poll then work with the IP holders but such discussions take time. And they already take time to create their own product. So how would the fan base react to "Vote on this poll in 2021 to see what MTG crossover we'll do in 2030" That's being generous with their timeline as its more likely "Vote on this poll in 2021, the results of which will be kept secret as both a surprise and a get out of jail free card when we can't get the most requested IP to agree to let us do a crossover. Also, we may never bring this up again so don't actually expect us to talk about a release date." Then in 2026 at a panel, they finally admit that the only IP that wanted to do crossover was so disliked in the poll that they scraped the entire idea.
Not really, that's their property and they chose to do something with it, though I would wonder why they would effectively ruin $50+ to have Dr. Doom on it, but again their property.
If we are going to switch IPs for Force of Will, it is going to be of Will Smith either in his Fresh Prince or ID4 role with the flavor text:
"This is the story
All about how
your spell got flipped
turned upside down
so I'd like you to take a moment
and sit right there
and move this card that's countered into your graveyard right over there"
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I also meant to add Legend of Zelda on the list cause one of my friends tried to design his own Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game off the franchise based on the Harry Potter TCG though sadly it was eventually discontinued. Link and Princess Zelda are shoe-in's for Elf Tribal, the Gorons for Giant Tribal, and even Zoras for Merfolk possibly?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Exactly. The new guy, or any guy for that matter, needs to understand there is a line to be drawn as far as what we will accept Wizards of the Coast does with our game. If they decide to sell out on what the game has always been and make a flat out mockery out of it then it needs to be clear there are people who will not allow that as opposed to your sheepish conformist mentality of blindly accepting whatever WotC tells you to like. I’m free to think that is having no standard and being weak to the bone.
In my experience it’s too rare to matter.
There once was someone playing decks with naked boob manga girls drawn on all of his basic lands and some other similar stupid alters which he refused to replace. He ended up taking his talents elsewhere because the majority of players simply refused to play him as a result.
6 pages of whining--and counting--on something we know so little about, and amounts to little more than official alters or maybe gun skins? *sigh* Never change, mtgs.
As opposed to you telling us all what to like and blindly conforming to your vision... That just sounds like trading one master for another.
I'm fine with these crossover cards. More players and diversity of interests is better for everyone. If they have their own little side-format that's fine, as that's no different to UNCommander, cEDH or Commander Draft - it's just format variance.
Don't like the cards, don't buy them. Simple. Not scream at those, in person or online, that might be wanting to learn the mechanics of MTG through something they're already familiar with, or those who get one gifted to them by a loved one because of that other IP, or just Mr Casual, who might actually like giant IP crossovers.
I get the purist mentality, there's nobody stopping you playing a WOTC-Only card list if you want, but nobody is entitled to give out orders on either side of the fence, and expressing someones individuality through their interests - even if that's contrary to yours - isn't 'sheepishness', it's good self-esteem.
Now, where's my Morrigan Aensland with Vampire creature typing - I neeeeedddd thisssss....
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
It is clear you don’t have a clue about what is going to happen once these cards are released.
We are not talking about “just format variance” or little side formats or UNCommander. If that is what it was nobody would mind it. The way WotC is doing this they are forcing EVERYBODY playing Commander games to deal with this garbage because everything is thrown on the same pile. You’ll never again be able to sit down with strangers joining your game without addressing this issue.
If people wants these other IP’s games then make games for the other IP’s. Not **** up a game that has been there for 25+ years.
How about including "Meld" for the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers?
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
And it is going to be even more shocking when this products have a large success and you see new players coming with their UB cards.
When all is said and done this products will bring new players, hope they are engaged and get more in to magic, I am going to welcomed them because sharing a hobby is nice, looking forward to teach them about the 25 years of magic history.
this on endless levels
and Easily a would allow the crossover cards and to go one step further maybe even make new commander decks with them
I think that's quite the overstatement. There are people who don't enjoy this fairly radical change to the game (and for many reasons, some may think it breaks immersion, some may see it as a jump the shark moment, whatever the individual perception is) and won't engage with it. And others are excited by the possibilities and the change won't really impact how they interact with the game. No one's hurt, no one's bullying.
At worst, this is equivalent of arguing about whether one can/should skip the Edward Norton Hulk movie or Thor: the Dark World in an MCU rewatch. There's discussion on the merits, and ultimately most people will just quietly do what's best/fun for them and only a tiny number of maladjusted people will take it seriously enough to make bigger issue of it.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains