I've thought it through and I'm taking a break from the game and from the lore for a while.
We'll see how long it lasts as my investment in the game is pretty ingrained by now, but I can't help thinking that I possibly care about and prioritize Magic's setting and storyline at a deeper level than the staff (or at least the upper management) at WotC.
And that's not healthy.
There are loads of other franchises, series, and fandoms that do just as good, if not better jobs at developing engaging and consistent narratives.
Simply put: This game is not for me.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
People here seem to not get that not every product is for you. I hate lord of the rings but im not going to tell everybody I play with that they can't play with me and my friends even though the cards they have are official black bordered magic cards. Not allowing those people to play with you potentially gets rid of their only way to play magic.
Selfish.
I don't know...I see this the same as Silver-Border cards. We normally can say yes or no to people using them in decks. I wouldn't want to push anyone away from the table, but as a Vorthos player its going to be very very hard playing a Nicol Bolas commander deck against a Gollum deck.
I'm not gonna quit the game or anything, but like most of the internet, I hate it. I hate it for the same reasons everyone else does. And yeah, I hated the Gatewatch thing too-- still do.
But the fact is we are a calculated minority: enfranchised fans who think we know how to do MtG better than Wizards, and will yell about it on the internet before shutting up and buying product. And if we don't buy that product, it's no skin off their nose. Walking Dead did great without our support, and the Gatewatch macro-arc is probably considered very successful.
It's not that they don't care about us, but they've calculated that our outrage will equal to nothing, and profits will be up. This seriously sucks, and I hate it (doesn't matter that I'm a Tolkien fan). But like everyone else, I'm gonna suck it up, and accept it when Gollum equipped with a lightsaber is fighting Naruto equipped with Captain America's shield.
Who knows how long MtG will survive. I don't think anyone expects them to be putting out sets in 2120. This is not gonna kill the game. In no way will it do so. But it will be pointed to as a symptom of deeper problems.
And of course some people will love it. They might know sorta how to play the game, but have no real affection for it, and may be repelled by a deep internal MtG lore that they likely see as childish and contrived. But when the {Your favorite franchise here} set comes, they'll suddenly want to play Magic.
Also, the title of this thread is pretty click-bait-y, and I'd rather it were something else.
I've thought it through and I'm taking a break from the game and from the lore for a while.
We'll see how long it lasts as my investment in the game is pretty ingrained by now, but I can't help thinking that I possibly care about and prioritize Magic's setting and storyline at a deeper level than the staff (or at least the upper management) at WotC.
And that's not healthy.
There are loads of other franchises, series, and fandoms that do just as good, if not better jobs at developing engaging and consistent narratives.
Simply put: This game is not for me.
your choice but like I asked earlier why defend the storyline when ever since BFZ going forward especially war of the spark aftermath story it’s vast majorly is “boooooo”
the one and only reason it got interesting again is the phyrexians are finally coming back.
Basically this. Nobody's going to force you to put those cards in your deck. But if you are preventing other people from playing with you because they picked up a card with a particular creative treatment, then yeah, that's 100% gatekeeping. You can certainly chose to own that, but that's what you're doing.
You're using a really messed up definition of gatekeeping. Gatekeeping is preventing someone from doing or entering a certain activity or group. By not playing with a person for whatever reason I am not gatekeeping. In fact, if anything, I am keeping myself out of an activity. They are still free to play with whoever they want. They simply have to find a person to agree to play the game the way they want.
Is it gatekeeping when a person comes to the store and wants to play a draft of a certain set and people say "nah, we don't draft" or "nah, we'd rather play <another set>". No, it really isn't and I don't know what to tell people who think that that person is entitled to playing with anyone. I am not anyone's plaything and claiming I am gatekeeping and keeping players from playing, because I am not interested in playing a certain format is really disgusting. What is wrong with you.
This. I have a particular vibe I'm after when I play, and I don't play games that just aren't fun to me. I don't play competitive, I don't typically play against people who spend thousands on the best cards and that's all they talk about, etc. That's not gatekeeping, it's just me understanding what I find fun and not engaging with things that ruin that fun for me. In playgroups when stuff like that comes up, I just walk away and do something else. Get a drink, eat a snack, make a trade, check my phone ... whatever. Exactly like Arena games I concede on turn two when I see what the other player is doing and it's just going to be an irritating experience (but, if I'm being honest, playing with most MtG players is an irritating experience). These idiotic brand concepts are the same thing, people can play them all they want, just not with me.
I've thought it through and I'm taking a break from the game and from the lore for a while.
We'll see how long it lasts as my investment in the game is pretty ingrained by now, but I can't help thinking that I possibly care about and prioritize Magic's setting and storyline at a deeper level than the staff (or at least the upper management) at WotC.
And that's not healthy.
There are loads of other franchises, series, and fandoms that do just as good, if not better jobs at developing engaging and consistent narratives.
Simply put: This game is not for me.
Absolutely this. I've taken extensive breaks from the game more than a few times, which has typically refreshed my interest when I eventually wander back after whatever drove me off to begin with peters out. I'm going to give it to Strixhaven previews. Kaldheim didn't interest me at all, but I think Strixhaven could be more appealing so I want to see.
There's just too much jarring news with MTG. Relax Hasbro.
This has potential to be good or bad. Right now it leans more toward the latter. I am not sure what to make of it really. At this point the Theros gods might as well have literally been the Greek pantheon exactly.
I've thought it through and I'm taking a break from the game and from the lore for a while.
We'll see how long it lasts as my investment in the game is pretty ingrained by now, but I can't help thinking that I possibly care about and prioritize Magic's setting and storyline at a deeper level than the staff (or at least the upper management) at WotC.
And that's not healthy.
There are loads of other franchises, series, and fandoms that do just as good, if not better jobs at developing engaging and consistent narratives.
Simply put: This game is not for me.
your choice but like I asked earlier why defend the storyline when ever since BFZ going forward especially war of the spark aftermath story it’s vast majorly is “boooooo”
the one and only reason it got interesting again is the phyrexians are finally coming back.
To be honest the story in MTG only got bad the moment the game put more focus on Planeswalkers as critical to the story. Alpha until Gatewatch was the best time story-wise. The new stuff just seems so...Marvel.
I've thought it through and I'm taking a break from the game and from the lore for a while.
We'll see how long it lasts as my investment in the game is pretty ingrained by now, but I can't help thinking that I possibly care about and prioritize Magic's setting and storyline at a deeper level than the staff (or at least the upper management) at WotC.
And that's not healthy.
There are loads of other franchises, series, and fandoms that do just as good, if not better jobs at developing engaging and consistent narratives.
Simply put: This game is not for me.
your choice but like I asked earlier why defend the storyline when ever since BFZ going forward especially war of the spark aftermath story it’s vast majorly is “boooooo”
the one and only reason it got interesting again is the phyrexians are finally coming back.
To be honest the story in MTG only got bad the moment the game put more focus on Planeswalkers as critical to the story. Alpha until Gatewatch was the best time story-wise. The new stuff just seems so...Marvel.
I don't know much about Warhammer...does it even have "magic"? This is still Magic: the Gathering after all.
This is why I first called the Godzilla cards fake (check my old posts, I didn't delete them). I accepted that they were alters, because I've seen alters all over, but they were always alters of cards that existed in a non altered form.
Ponies: the Galloping was Silver bordered. Good. I actually like silver bordered cards.
Walking Dead should have been Silver bordered or alters...but they weren't. They had all the time in the world between the announcement and the drop date to switch to one or the other (or both!). Can you imagine how much of an uproar of EXCITEMENT when the first TWD secret drop was opened and there was the name of a card that did not exist yet underneath? The internet would go mad! Is it appearing in Zendikar Rising, Kaldheim, Strixhaven, the new Innistrad decks???
So here is what I have to say: treat these Expanded Universe cards as silver bordered cards.
I'm up for silverbordered games or decks that just run a few silver bordered cards (aside from the recommmended banned list and Meddling Kids, I ran that myself until I decided it was just too powerful) but of the two silverbordered decks one I'll always have an extra deck if people say "no" and the other I have a "regular board" to replace each silverborder one (even the commander).
So in short: I would like to see the rules committee treat these new sets like silver bordered cards.
To be honest the story in MTG only got bad the moment the game put more focus on Planeswalkers as critical to the story. Alpha until Gatewatch was the best time story-wise. The new stuff just seems so...Marvel.
Do you mean the story of Urza, who becomes a Planeswalker and influences the path of Dominaria for centuries? Or the story of the Thran and the man who destroyed them in an attempt to become a Planeswalker himself and while not becoming a Planeswalker, did still have find ways to interact with other planes? Or the story of Jodah and Jaya, a world-traveller and a Planeswalker, respectively? Or the story of the Weatherlight and it's crew, as they use the ship to walk to other planes and deal with the threats that are approaching their own? Or the story of Jhoira, Teferi, and Karn, as they deal with an interplanar threat and eventually become planeswalkers in two of three cases? Or the story of Kamahl, who's dealing with the ramifications of an extra-planar object of intense power?
Like...I understand the frustration with the modern story, even if I don't fully agree with it. I just think the idea of "The story didn't used to have Planeswalkers as critical to the story" is maybe a bit misguided. The only stories I can think of that don't involve Planeswalkers, soon to be Planeswalkers, people who still travel between planes without being Planeswalkers, or dealing with the ramifications of a Planeswalker are like... original Ravnica and maybe Kamigawa.
Same for me. I know it sounds overly dramatic and I know that "nobody cares", but it's the conclusion that I've arrived at after mulling things over.
The "slippery slope" is called a fallacy, but in the recent year or so, we legitimately saw one happen. First we had silver-bordered cards, then Godzilla skins, then Secret Lair TWD, and now whole commander sets are getting the TWD treatment ... personally, I stopped being comfortable with these choices at the point the Godzilla skins got made, but they cleverly moved the line inch by inch, people gobbled up the products, and here we are. And it's clear that they're not going to stop here, as long as it makes them big cash.
As someome who's mostly interested in Commander and occasionally Limited, this development is a pretty big hit. I haven't played Commander in quite a while, but that was not because of the cards, but because of the "finding a playgroup" hurdle. With UB being a thing, I'll not only have to find a playgroup, but specifically a playgroup that doesn't use UB cards, and I don't like being made to go that extra step. That being said, I still have no intention of playing against people who use Bilbo Baggins or Scooby Doo as their Commanders, so the only option that's left is to quit.
I feel a bit saddened that I'm being pushed into this direction and that Wizards stance towards people who don't like the UB stuff seems to be "well just leave then lol." They think they can get away with not listening to people like me ... and in fact, they probably can. After all, these are all well-measured business decisions that were made after hours of careful market research. But I'm not going to do them the favor of still engaging with their product in any meaningful way after this. I'm still going to look at the art for the game because I've always liked the illustrations, but that's going to be my line. I wish I could do something more than not buying stuff, but well.
Like...I understand the frustration with the modern story, even if I don't fully agree with it. I just think the idea of "The story didn't used to have Planeswalkers as critical to the story" is maybe a bit misguided.
I can only speak for myself, but for me it was never really the individual characters or the details of the lore that mattered. It was all the other creative efforts that went into creating the planes: Worldbuilding, art direction, illustration, using flavor text and art to paint a picture over hundreds of cards, using Magic rules and concepts as limitations to fuel creativity ... those kind of things. All these things created the illusion that I was dealing with a somehow internally consistent universe, even if that universe featured wildly different worlds. To me it's precisely this illusion that's shattered when my opponent casts MegaMan from the command zone and then equips the One Ring to it.
To be honest the story in MTG only got bad the moment the game put more focus on Planeswalkers as critical to the story. Alpha until Gatewatch was the best time story-wise. The new stuff just seems so...Marvel.
Do you mean the story of Urza, who becomes a Planeswalker and influences the path of Dominaria for centuries? Or the story of the Thran and the man who destroyed them in an attempt to become a Planeswalker himself and while not becoming a Planeswalker, did still have find ways to interact with other planes? Or the story of Jodah and Jaya, a world-traveller and a Planeswalker, respectively? Or the story of the Weatherlight and it's crew, as they use the ship to walk to other planes and deal with the threats that are approaching their own? Or the story of Jhoira, Teferi, and Karn, as they deal with an interplanar threat and eventually become planeswalkers in two of three cases? Or the story of Kamahl, who's dealing with the ramifications of an extra-planar object of intense power?
Like...I understand the frustration with the modern story, even if I don't fully agree with it. I just think the idea of "The story didn't used to have Planeswalkers as critical to the story" is maybe a bit misguided. The only stories I can think of that don't involve Planeswalkers, soon to be Planeswalkers, people who still travel between planes without being Planeswalkers, or dealing with the ramifications of a Planeswalker are like... original Ravnica and maybe Kamigawa.
Lorwyn was a great story full of worldbuilding that didn't really feature planeswalkers. I'm also partial to The Mirage War, Ice Age and a number of other stories. I don't actually mind if a Planeswalker is involved to a degree, but like putting sugar in coffee, its possible to put too many in the one story. I absolute hate Marvel avenger type team ups and Power Ranger-like superhero generation that modern Planeswalkers are used as.
Planeswalkers should be singular the majority of time, rarely two and world-ending events three or more imo.
There are so many different storylines from Magic's "old days," but WOTC chose to fulfill the Urza/Mishra story arc. I'd love to have had a focus on Greensleeves, Freyalise and even Sandruu more than Urza. Like how many (legendary) characters from Legends would've been ideal for a story arc to follow? But I guess it's the short attention span of the fanbase that dictates where the storyline(s) go.
I get the player base is bored and restless story-wise. Right now this period feels like the time of Odyssey and Onslaught after the most emotionally-intensive arc in the game's history, the post-Weatherlight arc. Odyssey and Onslaught felt pretty dead and aimless following Apocalypse. That's how it feels now with Eldraine to present. Don't get me wrong I love the Kenriths and am happy to see them arise again in Strixhaven. Maybe there'll be more concrete storyline directions but as it stands this is a huge lull in story development and I hope they course correct soon.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
There are so many different storylines from Magic's "old days," but WOTC chose to fulfill the Urza/Mishra story arc. I'd love to have had a focus on Greensleeves, Freyalise and even Sandruu more than Urza. Like how many (legendary) characters from Legends would've been ideal for a story arc to follow? But I guess it's the short attention span of the fanbase that dictates where the storyline(s) go.
I get the player base is bored and restless story-wise. Right now this period feels like the time of Odyssey and Onslaught after the most emotionally-intensive arc in the game's history, the post-Weatherlight arc. Odyssey and Onslaught felt pretty dead and aimless following Apocalypse. That's how it feels now with Eldraine to present. Don't get me wrong I love the Kenriths and am happy to see them arise again in Strixhaven. Maybe there'll be more concrete storyline directions but as it stands this is a huge lull in story development and I hope they course correct soon.
'buster
Outside of the original novels (which I love, they're so campy!), and the Giant Badger flavor text, has Greensleeves appeared on any cards in Magic? I would love if she showed up in a commander deck some day. I'd also like to see her with an old border
People here seem to not get that not every product is for you. I hate lord of the rings but im not going to tell everybody I play with that they can't play with me and my friends even though the cards they have are official black bordered magic cards. Not allowing those people to play with you potentially gets rid of their only way to play magic.
Selfish.
I don't know...I see this the same as Silver-Border cards. We normally can say yes or no to people using them in decks. I wouldn't want to push anyone away from the table, but as a Vorthos player its going to be very very hard playing a Nicol Bolas commander deck against a Gollum deck.
Yeah but the thing is they aren't silver border cards they're black border so it really doesn't matter much if people believe that others shouldn't be allowed to play them cause it's simply not their right to exclude people because they chose to play cards that are legal in the format, just because they don't like that they aren't from the magic lore. People are going to buy these cards expecting to be able to play them and if your playgroup decides not to play them thats fine but when some 16 year old kid shows up with their new Warhammer 40k deck they just purchased excited to play with the cards they bought and they're told they can't play with the local group because they decided those cards aren't allowed, the game could be completely ruined for them because they were excluded because they decided to buy cards someone else didn't like.
People here seem to not get that not every product is for you. I hate lord of the rings but im not going to tell everybody I play with that they can't play with me and my friends even though the cards they have are official black bordered magic cards. Not allowing those people to play with you potentially gets rid of their only way to play magic.
Selfish.
I don't know...I see this the same as Silver-Border cards. We normally can say yes or no to people using them in decks. I wouldn't want to push anyone away from the table, but as a Vorthos player its going to be very very hard playing a Nicol Bolas commander deck against a Gollum deck.
Yeah but the thing is they aren't silver border cards they're black border so it really doesn't matter much if people believe that others shouldn't be allowed to play them cause it's simply not their right to exclude people because they chose to play cards that are legal in the format, just because they don't like that they aren't from the magic lore. People are going to buy these cards expecting to be able to play them and if your playgroup decides not to play them thats fine but when some 16 year old kid shows up with their new Warhammer 40k deck they just purchased excited to play with the cards they bought and they're told they can't play with the local group because they decided those cards aren't allowed, the game could be completely ruined for them because they were excluded because they decided to buy cards someone else didn't like.
If that was really true, they would be legal in Standard and have the normal branding/look of normal MTG cards. I think even Wizards knows these are going to be fairly divisive for the current players versus new players.
Yeah but the thing is they aren't silver border cards they're black border so it really doesn't matter much if people believe that others shouldn't be allowed to play them cause it's simply not their right to exclude people because they chose to play cards that are legal in the format, just because they don't like that they aren't from the magic lore. People are going to buy these cards expecting to be able to play them and if your playgroup decides not to play them thats fine but when some 16 year old kid shows up with their new Warhammer 40k deck they just purchased excited to play with the cards they bought and they're told they can't play with the local group because they decided those cards aren't allowed, the game could be completely ruined for them because they were excluded because they decided to buy cards someone else didn't like.
Not their right ? Well you can play with whoever you want to, no reason needed at all.
Even in a tournament, if you dont like your opponent you can just pack your cards and leave. Yes you "lose", but thats your choice to make (not that it happens anywhere remotely often, extremely rare, but it does happen).
If you dont like someone you can totally not play with them.
The vast majority will not mind, but if people do, it simply means people have to build a different deck.
If someone really does not like the cards you bring to the table, for whatever reason, they will make you know.
If its a "casual" table with some specific rules, people already dont enjoy playing against specific decks, for various reasons.
The guy that brings the Armageddon deck, or any Stax deck, or the cEDH combo deck that nobody wants to play against ... a group has to reach a consensus what they want to play with, the easiest a format, a ban-list of cards, and if someone really dislikes artwork of a card, they can also say so.
There are people with sexually explicit alternate art cards, and some groups are fine with that, for others its a problem.
If anybody has a issue, they will tell the people they want to play with and find a deck thats fine.
----
A "store" in particular will most likely not tolerate arbitrary rules that exclude any product they sell themselves, would be kinda defeating the point of selling that stuff in the first place.
But in the end, everyone can choose against who they play, with who they play, with what cards they play.
Djau the Jackal:
That makes no sense whatsoever. They are not legal in standard for the same reason that commander legends, the yearly commander decks, Jumpstart, and double masters aren't legal in standard (or modern, or pioneer, et al). By your logic those products are equally contentious.
Do you mean the story of Urza, who becomes a Planeswalker and influences the path of Dominaria for centuries? Or the story of the Thran and the man who destroyed them in an attempt to become a Planeswalker himself and while not becoming a Planeswalker, did still have find ways to interact with other planes? Or the story of Jodah and Jaya, a world-traveller and a Planeswalker, respectively? Or the story of the Weatherlight and it's crew, as they use the ship to walk to other planes and deal with the threats that are approaching their own? Or the story of Jhoira, Teferi, and Karn, as they deal with an interplanar threat and eventually become planeswalkers in two of three cases? Or the story of Kamahl, who's dealing with the ramifications of an extra-planar object of intense power?
Like...I understand the frustration with the modern story, even if I don't fully agree with it. I just think the idea of "The story didn't used to have Planeswalkers as critical to the story" is maybe a bit misguided. The only stories I can think of that don't involve Planeswalkers, soon to be Planeswalkers, people who still travel between planes without being Planeswalkers, or dealing with the ramifications of a Planeswalker are like... original Ravnica and maybe Kamigawa.
Ravnica story was planeswalker-free (unless theres a tidbit that I missed in there somewhere) but Kamigawa had a character that could traverse planes. At the end of Saviors, Myojin of Night's Reach sends Toshiro Umezawa to Dominaria and blinds him in a Heliod-esque way (or should we say that Heliod was acting in a Myojin-esque way?) As payments for his services (might've been a punishment, Toshi was a shifty guy and I'm recalling the story from memory). Toshi's line would eventually bear Tetsuo Umezawa, the one guy credited with KILLING Nicol Bolas at Madara. Kamigawa, for those not in the know, was set WAY in the past. I dont know if it was ever said HOW far in the past but it does make me excited for that potential futuristic Kamigawa that was teased a little while back.
Anyways, just wanted to put in my two cents there.
As for this Universe Expanded, I'm always excited to see Magic move in new directions. I actually shared this info with a few coworkers that I would describe as "kitchen table players" that dont regularly follow Magic and they all expressed their interest to varying degrees. (Also as a part of that discussion I shared my acquisition of the Walking Dead Secret Lair and how it plays into the Universe Expanded with one such coworker and he was REALLY interested in those.)
This is the market that Wizards is targeting with this Universe Expanded. It was actually cool to see that someone that plays Magic peripherally and may not be up to date with what's going on in Magic would be able to pick up a Lord of the Rings pack on the shelf with the Magic logo and be excited. Or, for that matter, longtime LotR fans that see a booster pack and that is the gateway to them coming to play Magic.
Everyone on here seems to be harshing on Magic diversifying its product lineup to try to include new consumers. It really isnt about you. As Maro says, "not every product is meant for every player."
Oh and on the note of gatekeeping, I have a complete Silver Bordered EDH deck that prior to lockdown, I used to bring to my LGS and force into Commander games. I say force because by it's very nature, people immediately refuse to play with me because "I dont want to be forced to do the Hokey Pokey." This was an actual line dropped on me once and the sheer IGNORANCE of it left me speechless. But take my example and apply it to Johnny, LotR fanboy who has just built his first Magic deck and heard that this local comics and gaming store has people playing Magic, so he goes and takes his deck to play. But when he shows up to play, instead of maybe playing a game or two or if not willing to play against him offering a spare deck to play a couple games of Magic with him players instead give the above vehement rebuttal and oust him from the group "because Im.not playing with those cards" as I see SOOOO many people commenting, YOU are gatekeeping and YOU are part of the problem.
it Just accrued to me people are defend legacy/vintage why defend 2 formats that I hear is practically a ghost town of people in all stores outside tournament play so where do these legacy/vintage decks come from if barely anybody plays those formats anymore?
as i mentioned several time BFZ and forward story’s have been thumbs down vast majority
and are member count here and other sites with approximate grand total of MTG players nearly every single one is >1% of all players to be 1% it has to be around 350K since there 35 million PLUUUSS players And that so with all complaints are you absolutely positive it's the vast majority of the community?
While I hear a lot of people talking about "My playgroup will definitely do X" or "I don't think anyone at my LGS will allow Y", I haven't heard anyone discuss the real problem.
What happens when you are the only one who cares?
When people can gather to play once more and four people gather to play a game, what do you do when one player only has their Gandalf meme deck and the other two players don't care enough to force the other person out or to pressure you to stay? Do you personally force them out of the game because you want to have fun and refuse to play against those cards? Do you just walk away from the possibility of playing because you refuse to fight Gandalf? While people are ultimately only responsible for their own enjoyment, neither of these approaches really paints someone in a good light. Likewise, keep in mind that 40k or LotR cards could be used in the 99 and not all decks with UB cards are going to be immediately obvious. Are people going to sit down with strangers and tell the rest of the group "The moment any of you play a UB card, I am scooping and heading out".
I don't know. A lot of this stuff may make people look like jerks while simultaneously being perfectly reasonable responses.
Djau the Jackal:
That makes no sense whatsoever. They are not legal in standard for the same reason that commander legends, the yearly commander decks, Jumpstart, and double masters aren't legal in standard (or modern, or pioneer, et al). By your logic those products are equally contentious.
Not really, those commander and like products come from mtg itself and mtg lore.
While I hear a lot of people talking about "My playgroup will definitely do X" or "I don't think anyone at my LGS will allow Y", I haven't heard anyone discuss the real problem.
What happens when you are the only one who cares?
When people can gather to play once more and four people gather to play a game, what do you do when one player only has their Gandalf meme deck and the other two players don't care enough to force the other person out or to pressure you to stay? Do you personally force them out of the game because you want to have fun and refuse to play against those cards? Do you just walk away from the possibility of playing because you refuse to fight Gandalf? While people are ultimately only responsible for their own enjoyment, neither of these approaches really paints someone in a good light. Likewise, keep in mind that 40k or LotR cards could be used in the 99 and not all decks with UB cards are going to be immediately obvious. Are people going to sit down with strangers and tell the rest of the group "The moment any of you play a UB card, I am scooping and heading out".
Dude, if someone can't walk away without being a weird, standoffish dick about it, they probably don't have the most stable place in that group to begin with. And yes, that's what one would do if everyone else in the group is cool with something that you're not, just as in most other things in life. And this game.
I'm really confused by this. How are all of you interacting with people where walking away respectfully from something you don't want to be a part of is so outlandish a concept?
I've thought it through and I'm taking a break from the game and from the lore for a while.
We'll see how long it lasts as my investment in the game is pretty ingrained by now, but I can't help thinking that I possibly care about and prioritize Magic's setting and storyline at a deeper level than the staff (or at least the upper management) at WotC.
And that's not healthy.
There are loads of other franchises, series, and fandoms that do just as good, if not better jobs at developing engaging and consistent narratives.
Simply put: This game is not for me.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I don't know...I see this the same as Silver-Border cards. We normally can say yes or no to people using them in decks. I wouldn't want to push anyone away from the table, but as a Vorthos player its going to be very very hard playing a Nicol Bolas commander deck against a Gollum deck.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
But the fact is we are a calculated minority: enfranchised fans who think we know how to do MtG better than Wizards, and will yell about it on the internet before shutting up and buying product. And if we don't buy that product, it's no skin off their nose. Walking Dead did great without our support, and the Gatewatch macro-arc is probably considered very successful.
It's not that they don't care about us, but they've calculated that our outrage will equal to nothing, and profits will be up. This seriously sucks, and I hate it (doesn't matter that I'm a Tolkien fan). But like everyone else, I'm gonna suck it up, and accept it when Gollum equipped with a lightsaber is fighting Naruto equipped with Captain America's shield.
Who knows how long MtG will survive. I don't think anyone expects them to be putting out sets in 2120. This is not gonna kill the game. In no way will it do so. But it will be pointed to as a symptom of deeper problems.
And of course some people will love it. They might know sorta how to play the game, but have no real affection for it, and may be repelled by a deep internal MtG lore that they likely see as childish and contrived. But when the {Your favorite franchise here} set comes, they'll suddenly want to play Magic.
Also, the title of this thread is pretty click-bait-y, and I'd rather it were something else.
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your choice but like I asked earlier why defend the storyline when ever since BFZ going forward especially war of the spark aftermath story it’s vast majorly is “boooooo”
the one and only reason it got interesting again is the phyrexians are finally coming back.
This. I have a particular vibe I'm after when I play, and I don't play games that just aren't fun to me. I don't play competitive, I don't typically play against people who spend thousands on the best cards and that's all they talk about, etc. That's not gatekeeping, it's just me understanding what I find fun and not engaging with things that ruin that fun for me. In playgroups when stuff like that comes up, I just walk away and do something else. Get a drink, eat a snack, make a trade, check my phone ... whatever. Exactly like Arena games I concede on turn two when I see what the other player is doing and it's just going to be an irritating experience (but, if I'm being honest, playing with most MtG players is an irritating experience). These idiotic brand concepts are the same thing, people can play them all they want, just not with me.
Calling that gatekeeping is laughable.
Absolutely this. I've taken extensive breaks from the game more than a few times, which has typically refreshed my interest when I eventually wander back after whatever drove me off to begin with peters out. I'm going to give it to Strixhaven previews. Kaldheim didn't interest me at all, but I think Strixhaven could be more appealing so I want to see.
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Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
This has potential to be good or bad. Right now it leans more toward the latter. I am not sure what to make of it really. At this point the Theros gods might as well have literally been the Greek pantheon exactly.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
To be honest the story in MTG only got bad the moment the game put more focus on Planeswalkers as critical to the story. Alpha until Gatewatch was the best time story-wise. The new stuff just seems so...Marvel.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
amen to that my man
This is why I first called the Godzilla cards fake (check my old posts, I didn't delete them). I accepted that they were alters, because I've seen alters all over, but they were always alters of cards that existed in a non altered form.
Ponies: the Galloping was Silver bordered. Good. I actually like silver bordered cards.
Walking Dead should have been Silver bordered or alters...but they weren't. They had all the time in the world between the announcement and the drop date to switch to one or the other (or both!). Can you imagine how much of an uproar of EXCITEMENT when the first TWD secret drop was opened and there was the name of a card that did not exist yet underneath? The internet would go mad! Is it appearing in Zendikar Rising, Kaldheim, Strixhaven, the new Innistrad decks???
So here is what I have to say: treat these Expanded Universe cards as silver bordered cards.
I'm up for silverbordered games or decks that just run a few silver bordered cards (aside from the recommmended banned list and Meddling Kids, I ran that myself until I decided it was just too powerful) but of the two silverbordered decks one I'll always have an extra deck if people say "no" and the other I have a "regular board" to replace each silverborder one (even the commander).
So in short: I would like to see the rules committee treat these new sets like silver bordered cards.
Do you mean the story of Urza, who becomes a Planeswalker and influences the path of Dominaria for centuries? Or the story of the Thran and the man who destroyed them in an attempt to become a Planeswalker himself and while not becoming a Planeswalker, did still have find ways to interact with other planes? Or the story of Jodah and Jaya, a world-traveller and a Planeswalker, respectively? Or the story of the Weatherlight and it's crew, as they use the ship to walk to other planes and deal with the threats that are approaching their own? Or the story of Jhoira, Teferi, and Karn, as they deal with an interplanar threat and eventually become planeswalkers in two of three cases? Or the story of Kamahl, who's dealing with the ramifications of an extra-planar object of intense power?
Like...I understand the frustration with the modern story, even if I don't fully agree with it. I just think the idea of "The story didn't used to have Planeswalkers as critical to the story" is maybe a bit misguided. The only stories I can think of that don't involve Planeswalkers, soon to be Planeswalkers, people who still travel between planes without being Planeswalkers, or dealing with the ramifications of a Planeswalker are like... original Ravnica and maybe Kamigawa.
The "slippery slope" is called a fallacy, but in the recent year or so, we legitimately saw one happen. First we had silver-bordered cards, then Godzilla skins, then Secret Lair TWD, and now whole commander sets are getting the TWD treatment ... personally, I stopped being comfortable with these choices at the point the Godzilla skins got made, but they cleverly moved the line inch by inch, people gobbled up the products, and here we are. And it's clear that they're not going to stop here, as long as it makes them big cash.
As someome who's mostly interested in Commander and occasionally Limited, this development is a pretty big hit. I haven't played Commander in quite a while, but that was not because of the cards, but because of the "finding a playgroup" hurdle. With UB being a thing, I'll not only have to find a playgroup, but specifically a playgroup that doesn't use UB cards, and I don't like being made to go that extra step. That being said, I still have no intention of playing against people who use Bilbo Baggins or Scooby Doo as their Commanders, so the only option that's left is to quit.
I feel a bit saddened that I'm being pushed into this direction and that Wizards stance towards people who don't like the UB stuff seems to be "well just leave then lol." They think they can get away with not listening to people like me ... and in fact, they probably can. After all, these are all well-measured business decisions that were made after hours of careful market research. But I'm not going to do them the favor of still engaging with their product in any meaningful way after this. I'm still going to look at the art for the game because I've always liked the illustrations, but that's going to be my line. I wish I could do something more than not buying stuff, but well.
I can only speak for myself, but for me it was never really the individual characters or the details of the lore that mattered. It was all the other creative efforts that went into creating the planes: Worldbuilding, art direction, illustration, using flavor text and art to paint a picture over hundreds of cards, using Magic rules and concepts as limitations to fuel creativity ... those kind of things. All these things created the illusion that I was dealing with a somehow internally consistent universe, even if that universe featured wildly different worlds. To me it's precisely this illusion that's shattered when my opponent casts MegaMan from the command zone and then equips the One Ring to it.
Lorwyn was a great story full of worldbuilding that didn't really feature planeswalkers. I'm also partial to The Mirage War, Ice Age and a number of other stories. I don't actually mind if a Planeswalker is involved to a degree, but like putting sugar in coffee, its possible to put too many in the one story. I absolute hate Marvel avenger type team ups and Power Ranger-like superhero generation that modern Planeswalkers are used as.
Planeswalkers should be singular the majority of time, rarely two and world-ending events three or more imo.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
I get the player base is bored and restless story-wise. Right now this period feels like the time of Odyssey and Onslaught after the most emotionally-intensive arc in the game's history, the post-Weatherlight arc. Odyssey and Onslaught felt pretty dead and aimless following Apocalypse. That's how it feels now with Eldraine to present. Don't get me wrong I love the Kenriths and am happy to see them arise again in Strixhaven. Maybe there'll be more concrete storyline directions but as it stands this is a huge lull in story development and I hope they course correct soon.
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Outside of the original novels (which I love, they're so campy!), and the Giant Badger flavor text, has Greensleeves appeared on any cards in Magic? I would love if she showed up in a commander deck some day. I'd also like to see her with an old border
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In what way has it run its course that it would need to pull in other franchises to adapt?
Yeah but the thing is they aren't silver border cards they're black border so it really doesn't matter much if people believe that others shouldn't be allowed to play them cause it's simply not their right to exclude people because they chose to play cards that are legal in the format, just because they don't like that they aren't from the magic lore. People are going to buy these cards expecting to be able to play them and if your playgroup decides not to play them thats fine but when some 16 year old kid shows up with their new Warhammer 40k deck they just purchased excited to play with the cards they bought and they're told they can't play with the local group because they decided those cards aren't allowed, the game could be completely ruined for them because they were excluded because they decided to buy cards someone else didn't like.
If that was really true, they would be legal in Standard and have the normal branding/look of normal MTG cards. I think even Wizards knows these are going to be fairly divisive for the current players versus new players.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
Not their right ? Well you can play with whoever you want to, no reason needed at all.
Even in a tournament, if you dont like your opponent you can just pack your cards and leave. Yes you "lose", but thats your choice to make (not that it happens anywhere remotely often, extremely rare, but it does happen).
If you dont like someone you can totally not play with them.
The vast majority will not mind, but if people do, it simply means people have to build a different deck.
If someone really does not like the cards you bring to the table, for whatever reason, they will make you know.
If its a "casual" table with some specific rules, people already dont enjoy playing against specific decks, for various reasons.
The guy that brings the Armageddon deck, or any Stax deck, or the cEDH combo deck that nobody wants to play against ... a group has to reach a consensus what they want to play with, the easiest a format, a ban-list of cards, and if someone really dislikes artwork of a card, they can also say so.
There are people with sexually explicit alternate art cards, and some groups are fine with that, for others its a problem.
If anybody has a issue, they will tell the people they want to play with and find a deck thats fine.
----
A "store" in particular will most likely not tolerate arbitrary rules that exclude any product they sell themselves, would be kinda defeating the point of selling that stuff in the first place.
But in the end, everyone can choose against who they play, with who they play, with what cards they play.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
That makes no sense whatsoever. They are not legal in standard for the same reason that commander legends, the yearly commander decks, Jumpstart, and double masters aren't legal in standard (or modern, or pioneer, et al). By your logic those products are equally contentious.
Ravnica story was planeswalker-free (unless theres a tidbit that I missed in there somewhere) but Kamigawa had a character that could traverse planes. At the end of Saviors, Myojin of Night's Reach sends Toshiro Umezawa to Dominaria and blinds him in a Heliod-esque way (or should we say that Heliod was acting in a Myojin-esque way?) As payments for his services (might've been a punishment, Toshi was a shifty guy and I'm recalling the story from memory). Toshi's line would eventually bear Tetsuo Umezawa, the one guy credited with KILLING Nicol Bolas at Madara. Kamigawa, for those not in the know, was set WAY in the past. I dont know if it was ever said HOW far in the past but it does make me excited for that potential futuristic Kamigawa that was teased a little while back.
Anyways, just wanted to put in my two cents there.
As for this Universe Expanded, I'm always excited to see Magic move in new directions. I actually shared this info with a few coworkers that I would describe as "kitchen table players" that dont regularly follow Magic and they all expressed their interest to varying degrees. (Also as a part of that discussion I shared my acquisition of the Walking Dead Secret Lair and how it plays into the Universe Expanded with one such coworker and he was REALLY interested in those.)
This is the market that Wizards is targeting with this Universe Expanded. It was actually cool to see that someone that plays Magic peripherally and may not be up to date with what's going on in Magic would be able to pick up a Lord of the Rings pack on the shelf with the Magic logo and be excited. Or, for that matter, longtime LotR fans that see a booster pack and that is the gateway to them coming to play Magic.
Everyone on here seems to be harshing on Magic diversifying its product lineup to try to include new consumers. It really isnt about you. As Maro says, "not every product is meant for every player."
Oh and on the note of gatekeeping, I have a complete Silver Bordered EDH deck that prior to lockdown, I used to bring to my LGS and force into Commander games. I say force because by it's very nature, people immediately refuse to play with me because "I dont want to be forced to do the Hokey Pokey." This was an actual line dropped on me once and the sheer IGNORANCE of it left me speechless. But take my example and apply it to Johnny, LotR fanboy who has just built his first Magic deck and heard that this local comics and gaming store has people playing Magic, so he goes and takes his deck to play. But when he shows up to play, instead of maybe playing a game or two or if not willing to play against him offering a spare deck to play a couple games of Magic with him players instead give the above vehement rebuttal and oust him from the group "because Im.not playing with those cards" as I see SOOOO many people commenting, YOU are gatekeeping and YOU are part of the problem.
now I’m beyond confused
it Just accrued to me people are defend legacy/vintage why defend 2 formats that I hear is practically a ghost town of people in all stores outside tournament play so where do these legacy/vintage decks come from if barely anybody plays those formats anymore?
as i mentioned several time BFZ and forward story’s have been thumbs down vast majority
and are member count here and other sites with approximate grand total of MTG players nearly every single one is >1% of all players to be 1% it has to be around 350K since there 35 million PLUUUSS players And that so with all complaints are you absolutely positive it's the vast majority of the community?
What happens when you are the only one who cares?
When people can gather to play once more and four people gather to play a game, what do you do when one player only has their Gandalf meme deck and the other two players don't care enough to force the other person out or to pressure you to stay? Do you personally force them out of the game because you want to have fun and refuse to play against those cards? Do you just walk away from the possibility of playing because you refuse to fight Gandalf? While people are ultimately only responsible for their own enjoyment, neither of these approaches really paints someone in a good light. Likewise, keep in mind that 40k or LotR cards could be used in the 99 and not all decks with UB cards are going to be immediately obvious. Are people going to sit down with strangers and tell the rest of the group "The moment any of you play a UB card, I am scooping and heading out".
I don't know. A lot of this stuff may make people look like jerks while simultaneously being perfectly reasonable responses.
Not really, those commander and like products come from mtg itself and mtg lore.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
Dude, if someone can't walk away without being a weird, standoffish dick about it, they probably don't have the most stable place in that group to begin with. And yes, that's what one would do if everyone else in the group is cool with something that you're not, just as in most other things in life. And this game.
I'm really confused by this. How are all of you interacting with people where walking away respectfully from something you don't want to be a part of is so outlandish a concept?
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains