There's also the YA novel Wizard's Hall from 1991, and Ursala K. Le Guin's Earthsea Series (first novel in 1968) features a school for wizards quite prominently. While certainly the Harry Potter association will invite comparisons, the fact is wizarding schools are their own trope outside of the HP license.
Did you guys read Maro's response? Strixhaven is "not just a reskinning of any one version," which leaves it fairly open to borrow from any number of sources. Just like every other set.
Yeah, not sure where people are getting "there will be zero Harry Potter references" from.
My guess: it's an instants and sorceries matter set. This has been described by MaRo as a difficult concept due to needing a certain volume of creatures for a set to work, but was possibly solved by MDFCs with instants and sorceries on the back of creatures.
My other, way more farfetched guess: the plane it's on is Vryn, which has a specific need for a lot of mages.
Relax, he didn't say anything about not using tropes. He's just saying it's not a reskin of an existing property. Like how Theros is a reskin of greek mythology rather than being their own take on mythology as a medium.
Will it have deus ex machina spells, and important objects to drive the story, and guilds/houses/dark wizards/fantastic beasts? Yes. Because this is their take on the genre and those are tropes that exist in the genre. He just literally means (and literally says) there isn't going to be reskins aka intentional parallel versions of any one of the existing magic school takes.
The problem here is that people already associate wizard schools with things outside of MTG. I am reluctant to say that this won't feel like Harry Potter or something similar, because humans are creatures that observe patterns and make associations based on them.
It will feel like Harry Potter *and* something similar. It will feel like Harry Potter in the same way other magic school stories feel like Harry Potter and the same way Harry Potter feels like other magic school stories.
I'm not sure what the confusion is about. Remember Innistrad? That was also a genre-based setting. It felt like Dracula, and the Wolfman, and Frankenstein and a number of other stories of the like. But it wasn't a reskin of any of those stories, it was it's own world and story that used a combination of familiar elements. Expect something similar here.
Really, there isn't a good way to do this without it having a Harry Potter feel anymore than it is possible to remove Mindflayers from the feel of Cthulu, Theros from Greek Mythos, Ixalan from Un'Goro, etc.
See, Ixalan is actually a perfect comparison here, because it's not based on Un'Goro, it's based a classic subgenre of 'lost world' stories including Marvel's Savage Land, the Dinotopia series, and the original Lost World by Arthur Conan Doyle.
Considering some Maro's comments, i hope it will be more X-men than Harry Potter
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Did you guys read Maro's response? Strixhaven is "not just a reskinning of any one version," which leaves it fairly open to borrow from any number of sources. Just like every other set.
Yeah, not sure where people are getting "there will be zero Harry Potter references" from.
My guess: it's an instants and sorceries matter set. This has been described by MaRo as a difficult concept due to needing a certain volume of creatures for a set to work, but was possibly solved by MDFCs with instants and sorceries on the back of creatures.
My other, way more farfetched guess: the plane it's on is Vryn, which has a specific need for a lot of mages.
You are on to something.
ZNR was land/X and KLD was god/permenent. Spell/creature is one missing combination. Perhaps the theme is : either you summon your teacher or you learned the spell form him/her. And that inspired the school theme, maybe?
It may be a Magic version of school tropes, and not necessarily from Magic School tropes. So not necessarily Horcruxes or Dark Lords but definitely MTG versions of Potions or Herbology. A Xmen Danger Room, perhaps? Quidditch?
I could see this being Vryn and the academy itself is one Jace never had a chance to attend, which teaches wizards to manage the Mage Rings. I'm not sure though, because I'd like a visit to Vryn to be about Jace's past and the plane itself, not just one school.
Did you guys read Maro's response? Strixhaven is "not just a reskinning of any one version," which leaves it fairly open to borrow from any number of sources. Just like every other set.
Yeah, not sure where people are getting "there will be zero Harry Potter references" from.
My guess: it's an instants and sorceries matter set. This has been described by MaRo as a difficult concept due to needing a certain volume of creatures for a set to work, but was possibly solved by MDFCs with instants and sorceries on the back of creatures.
My other, way more farfetched guess: the plane it's on is Vryn, which has a specific need for a lot of mages.
You are on to something.
ZNR was land/X and KLD was god/permenent. Spell/creature is one missing combination. Perhaps the theme is : either you summon your teacher or you learned the spell form him/her. And that inspired the school theme, maybe?
It may be a Magic version of school tropes, and not necessarily from Magic School tropes. So not necessarily Horcruxes or Dark Lords but definitely MTG versions of Potions or Herbology. A Xmen Danger Room, perhaps? Quidditch?
I'm pretty sure that Maro also mentioned that DFC will be closer to Kaldheim than Zendikar regarding how many there will be (Read: 1 mythic and 2-3 rares per color), meaning that this won't be the mechanic that pushes up the As-fan of sorcery/instant cards to a level where we can get a dedicated "spell-slinger set"... and I would actually be pretty worried if MDFCs were being used in that way, honestly.
In Zendikar, players generally aren't punished too badly for playing their MDFCs as lands instead of tools or creatures. If you need to do so, you are probably low on lands and making that choice may actually remove what would have otherwise been a non-game. Most players will stop playing MDFC lands that they top-deck in the late-game when they have enough mana and the "correct choice" for which side to play is rarely too obscure for new players. With Creatures/Spells, however... that's just not the case. If I have 3 creature//counterspells, playing the first two as counterspells doesn't make me more likely to want to use the last one as a creature. I could imagine games where players keep using the spell sides and end up with with long limited games where one or both players legitimately run out of threats (imagine running 12-14 creatures as normal and being forced to use 6 of those creatures as spells, for example, and you only have around 6-8 creatures to survive all of your opponent's answers and win the game). While it can be done with careful planning, using MDFC as the primary "spells matter" mechanic would be really risky.
I'd anticipate some sort of spell-morph (like that one test card) or Awaken Variant tacked onto lands so that spells make threats. Also, I believe that there was that one flavor blurb regarding Kasmina trying to recruit potential planeswalkers to respond to a threat. We might see that Spark mechanic from that other test card (loyalty counters on creatures) to reflect that to give a taste of "Planeswalkers matter" while tying everything to a traditional creature body.
long story short it’s not based in Harry Potter or any other magic school theme in anything
This will be 100% unqiue outside anything even tolarian academy
(Fun fact are tolarian academy was born before Harry Potter)
Harry Potter and the Philosopher's stone, published in 1997
Urza's Saga (not sure if that was the first time Tolarian Academy was mentioned though) was released in 1998
Even if you take into account that the design took place one year before, at best, they were invented at the same time. But considering that Rowling came up with the story before it was officially published...Looks like Potter WAS before Tolarian
Edit: The first time the players heard of Tolarian was in 1998, so Potter precedes. But perhaps you're tacit to additional facts I missed?
As far as I can tell, the first mention of Tolaria at all would have been in Legends, but in the storyline the Academy first appeared in the Weatherlight set (where the crew picked up Hanna and Ertai before heading to Rath). As luck would have it, the Weatherlight set released on June 9th, 1997, while the first UK publication of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is actually, June 26th, 1997.
So, while we never saw it mentioned specifically on a Card until Urza's Saga in 1998, the Tolarian Academy in the MTG storyline ACTUALLY predates Harry Potter by 25 days, and the Island itself by a bit longer.
Breath of Fire II featured a "magic school" which allowed you to craft different magics with various elements, and that predated Harry Potter, so Schools of Magic are not exclusive to a particular pop culture phenomenon whether stated or otherwise.
I'm curious to see how this unfolds and the lore/design/world connectivity it has behind it. They say there's no reskin but honestly how can you not do a reskin of a concept that's been done many times before in some form or another?
'buster
The easy answer to that is to have the students use things other than wands, like staves, swords, rings, etc.
Ah, a video game reference! I also remember a PS2 game called GrimGrimoire that also featured a magic school setting, but the rather than magic houses, students were specialized by magic type (sorcery, glamour, alchemy, etc.)
It is possible to avoid using Harry Potter as a reference if they researched other Magic School stories. But, if the students have to use a magic wand that looks like it is from the Harry Potter movies to cast spells, then the association with Harry Potter is unavoidable.
I also think that Maro is backpedalling. Harry Potter is one of the most popular magic school world stories in the last decade, so how can WotC not use ideas from that world?
A lot of folks acting like Harry Potter was some ground-breaking original concept. Very few of the concepts themselves were unique although Rowling clearly found a new way to captivate children with the tropes.
I don't expect Strixhaven to be anything brand new conceptually either, which is going to lead to people claiming it a Harry Potter knockoff without even being aware of all of the other similar products and stories that inspired it.
I genuinely hope Strixhaven brings back an emphasis on spell casting and has creatures take a back seat from the spotlight for a bit. I feel that is what this game needs the most.
Did you guys read Maro's response? Strixhaven is "not just a reskinning of any one version," which leaves it fairly open to borrow from any number of sources. Just like every other set.
Yeah, not sure where people are getting "there will be zero Harry Potter references" from.
My guess: it's an instants and sorceries matter set. This has been described by MaRo as a difficult concept due to needing a certain volume of creatures for a set to work, but was possibly solved by MDFCs with instants and sorceries on the back of creatures.
My other, way more farfetched guess: the plane it's on is Vryn, which has a specific need for a lot of mages.
You are on to something.
ZNR was land/X and KLD was god/permenent. Spell/creature is one missing combination. Perhaps the theme is : either you summon your teacher or you learned the spell form him/her. And that inspired the school theme, maybe?
It may be a Magic version of school tropes, and not necessarily from Magic School tropes. So not necessarily Horcruxes or Dark Lords but definitely MTG versions of Potions or Herbology. A Xmen Danger Room, perhaps? Quidditch?
I'm pretty sure that Maro also mentioned that DFC will be closer to Kaldheim than Zendikar regarding how many there will be (Read: 1 mythic and 2-3 rares per color), meaning that this won't be the mechanic that pushes up the As-fan of sorcery/instant cards to a level where we can get a dedicated "spell-slinger set"... and I would actually be pretty worried if MDFCs were being used in that way, honestly.
In Zendikar, players generally aren't punished too badly for playing their MDFCs as lands instead of tools or creatures. If you need to do so, you are probably low on lands and making that choice may actually remove what would have otherwise been a non-game. Most players will stop playing MDFC lands that they top-deck in the late-game when they have enough mana and the "correct choice" for which side to play is rarely too obscure for new players. With Creatures/Spells, however... that's just not the case. If I have 3 creature//counterspells, playing the first two as counterspells doesn't make me more likely to want to use the last one as a creature. I could imagine games where players keep using the spell sides and end up with with long limited games where one or both players legitimately run out of threats (imagine running 12-14 creatures as normal and being forced to use 6 of those creatures as spells, for example, and you only have around 6-8 creatures to survive all of your opponent's answers and win the game). While it can be done with careful planning, using MDFC as the primary "spells matter" mechanic would be really risky.
I'd anticipate some sort of spell-morph (like that one test card) or Awaken Variant tacked onto lands so that spells make threats. Also, I believe that there was that one flavor blurb regarding Kasmina trying to recruit potential planeswalkers to respond to a threat. We might see that Spark mechanic from that other test card (loyalty counters on creatures) to reflect that to give a taste of "Planeswalkers matter" while tying everything to a traditional creature body.
Still, I do think creature/spell is a likely combination. The adventure mechanic from Throne of Eldraine is similar and there are plenty of cases where just casting the creature is right.
I don't understand why a certain volume of creatures are needed. Perhaps he just means in the modern style of game design they have chosen to pursue. Because, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, it feels as though creatures are just so much more plentiful in each new set than they ever used to be. If I am wrong about that, maybe it just feels that way because of the way they have moved so many effects, keywords, and abilities onto the creatures. Effects which spells used to be the primary source.
I guess that's what I am saying. I don't mind having the same literal number of creatures, but I want them to be more watered down. Give them a keyword here or there; just let the spells be the power houses for this set. There are already plenty of strong creatures to carry Standard from the other sets.
Honestly, if that doesn't end up being the case and this just turns into a Wizard tribal set I think I will sit it out like I had been doing since Dominaria up until Kaldheim.
I don't understand why a certain volume of creatures are needed. Perhaps he just means in the modern style of game design they have chosen to pursue. Because, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, it feels as though creatures are just so much more plentiful in each new set than they ever used to be. If I am wrong about that, maybe it just feels that way because of the way they have moved so many effects, keywords, and abilities onto the creatures. Effects which spells used to be the primary source.
It isn't about needing a certain volume of creatures. In fact, I'd say that's kind of backwards.
MDFC lands didn't make players put more land slots into their deck. What it did was allow some of your nonland slots to double as lands when mana screwed or allow some of your land slots to function as gas if flooded (depending on your perspective). Likewise, MDFC creature//spells would let players have extra creatures if they don't need an expensive broken wings or annul at the moment (as examples) or use their creature as an answer if they are on the backfoot. MDFC creature//spells would increase the frequency of spells while allowing players to still have access to game-progressing threats. The only problem is that MDFC land/spells naturally funnel players into using the land side early on and the spell slide later on (with a few exceptions like the weak counterspell) while a card that's a spell on both sides does not make that distinction (which would likely make the cards trickier for newer or less skilled players to navigate, which wizards doesn't want).
I guess that's what I am saying. I don't mind having the same literal number of creatures, but I want them to be more watered down. Give them a keyword here or there; just let the spells be the power houses for this set. There are already plenty of strong creatures to carry Standard from the other sets.
Yeah... I have a hard time imagining a future in which you are anything other than disappointed.
Either you are expecting a standard set to churn out vintage-level all-star answers or you are hoping for the power level of the entire set to be punched in the face so that normal spells doing spell things of the appropriate power level for standard don't overshadow the creatures. Like, we'll probably get a cycle of "splashy" commander spells (like the CMD 8-9 cycle in commander legends) and a couple of good rare spells/enchantments but... yeah.
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Yeah, not sure where people are getting "there will be zero Harry Potter references" from.
My guess: it's an instants and sorceries matter set. This has been described by MaRo as a difficult concept due to needing a certain volume of creatures for a set to work, but was possibly solved by MDFCs with instants and sorceries on the back of creatures.
My other, way more farfetched guess: the plane it's on is Vryn, which has a specific need for a lot of mages.
It will feel like Harry Potter *and* something similar. It will feel like Harry Potter in the same way other magic school stories feel like Harry Potter and the same way Harry Potter feels like other magic school stories.
I'm not sure what the confusion is about. Remember Innistrad? That was also a genre-based setting. It felt like Dracula, and the Wolfman, and Frankenstein and a number of other stories of the like. But it wasn't a reskin of any of those stories, it was it's own world and story that used a combination of familiar elements. Expect something similar here.
See, Ixalan is actually a perfect comparison here, because it's not based on Un'Goro, it's based a classic subgenre of 'lost world' stories including Marvel's Savage Land, the Dinotopia series, and the original Lost World by Arthur Conan Doyle.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
You are on to something.
ZNR was land/X and KLD was god/permenent. Spell/creature is one missing combination. Perhaps the theme is : either you summon your teacher or you learned the spell form him/her. And that inspired the school theme, maybe?
It may be a Magic version of school tropes, and not necessarily from Magic School tropes. So not necessarily Horcruxes or Dark Lords but definitely MTG versions of Potions or Herbology. A Xmen Danger Room, perhaps? Quidditch?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I'm pretty sure that Maro also mentioned that DFC will be closer to Kaldheim than Zendikar regarding how many there will be (Read: 1 mythic and 2-3 rares per color), meaning that this won't be the mechanic that pushes up the As-fan of sorcery/instant cards to a level where we can get a dedicated "spell-slinger set"... and I would actually be pretty worried if MDFCs were being used in that way, honestly.
In Zendikar, players generally aren't punished too badly for playing their MDFCs as lands instead of tools or creatures. If you need to do so, you are probably low on lands and making that choice may actually remove what would have otherwise been a non-game. Most players will stop playing MDFC lands that they top-deck in the late-game when they have enough mana and the "correct choice" for which side to play is rarely too obscure for new players. With Creatures/Spells, however... that's just not the case. If I have 3 creature//counterspells, playing the first two as counterspells doesn't make me more likely to want to use the last one as a creature. I could imagine games where players keep using the spell sides and end up with with long limited games where one or both players legitimately run out of threats (imagine running 12-14 creatures as normal and being forced to use 6 of those creatures as spells, for example, and you only have around 6-8 creatures to survive all of your opponent's answers and win the game). While it can be done with careful planning, using MDFC as the primary "spells matter" mechanic would be really risky.
I'd anticipate some sort of spell-morph (like that one test card) or Awaken Variant tacked onto lands so that spells make threats. Also, I believe that there was that one flavor blurb regarding Kasmina trying to recruit potential planeswalkers to respond to a threat. We might see that Spark mechanic from that other test card (loyalty counters on creatures) to reflect that to give a taste of "Planeswalkers matter" while tying everything to a traditional creature body.
As far as I can tell, the first mention of Tolaria at all would have been in Legends, but in the storyline the Academy first appeared in the Weatherlight set (where the crew picked up Hanna and Ertai before heading to Rath). As luck would have it, the Weatherlight set released on June 9th, 1997, while the first UK publication of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is actually, June 26th, 1997.
So, while we never saw it mentioned specifically on a Card until Urza's Saga in 1998, the Tolarian Academy in the MTG storyline ACTUALLY predates Harry Potter by 25 days, and the Island itself by a bit longer.
*retreats into nerd cave*
I don't expect Strixhaven to be anything brand new conceptually either, which is going to lead to people claiming it a Harry Potter knockoff without even being aware of all of the other similar products and stories that inspired it.
I genuinely hope Strixhaven brings back an emphasis on spell casting and has creatures take a back seat from the spotlight for a bit. I feel that is what this game needs the most.
Ah, so he did:
"It’s closer to Kaldheim. When we moved MDFCs into Zendikar Rusing and Kaldheim, it moved us away from our original plans for Strixhaven which had a higher as-fan of MDFCs."
Still, I do think creature/spell is a likely combination. The adventure mechanic from Throne of Eldraine is similar and there are plenty of cases where just casting the creature is right.
I guess that's what I am saying. I don't mind having the same literal number of creatures, but I want them to be more watered down. Give them a keyword here or there; just let the spells be the power houses for this set. There are already plenty of strong creatures to carry Standard from the other sets.
Honestly, if that doesn't end up being the case and this just turns into a Wizard tribal set I think I will sit it out like I had been doing since Dominaria up until Kaldheim.
It isn't about needing a certain volume of creatures. In fact, I'd say that's kind of backwards.
MDFC lands didn't make players put more land slots into their deck. What it did was allow some of your nonland slots to double as lands when mana screwed or allow some of your land slots to function as gas if flooded (depending on your perspective). Likewise, MDFC creature//spells would let players have extra creatures if they don't need an expensive broken wings or annul at the moment (as examples) or use their creature as an answer if they are on the backfoot. MDFC creature//spells would increase the frequency of spells while allowing players to still have access to game-progressing threats. The only problem is that MDFC land/spells naturally funnel players into using the land side early on and the spell slide later on (with a few exceptions like the weak counterspell) while a card that's a spell on both sides does not make that distinction (which would likely make the cards trickier for newer or less skilled players to navigate, which wizards doesn't want).
Yeah... I have a hard time imagining a future in which you are anything other than disappointed.
Either you are expecting a standard set to churn out vintage-level all-star answers or you are hoping for the power level of the entire set to be punched in the face so that normal spells doing spell things of the appropriate power level for standard don't overshadow the creatures. Like, we'll probably get a cycle of "splashy" commander spells (like the CMD 8-9 cycle in commander legends) and a couple of good rare spells/enchantments but... yeah.
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