I decided to make a new thread since these three showed up a while after Toralf did. Here we have some of that "bad" white removal, the weirdest polymorph spell to day... and the normal art of Tyvar Kell.
I like that red is getting new stuff, but I wish things like Tibalt's Trickery and Wheel of Misfortune were less complicated, straightforward effects. Imagine explaining these to newer players.
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That white removal is so sad...
And they gave red a counter? An extremely clunky and suboptimal counter? Are they crazy?
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
The trickery is basicly a worse chaos warp because they dig till they hit a non land and less likely to whiff
im Never using divine gambit in edh I will wager (depending on the deck) a million bucks the opponent cheats out Omniscience or something just as game ending
What's the deal with the mill part of that red counterspell? I feel like it makes the design needlessly complicated and doesn't add anything.
EDIT: Is it to prevent abuse but without having to shuffle a library? If it's for that, that seems silly.
Maybe it shall add the flavor of red‘s affinity for randomness and chaos.
The main design is already chaotic though, I don't think there was a need to add a useless die roll or other random determination, just to mill some cards that won't be used in any way. Just make the spell's controller shuffle their library if you want to prevent top deck shenanigans.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
Yeah gambit even in limited is bad. In edh its worse and in modern its basically giving a opponent a free win con. Even with political games in EDH this is going to backfire badly if you pick the wrong combo bit on the board to nuke. Either you hit the part they need and you paint a target on yourself or you pick wrong and now have allowed them to put in play free no less the part of the combo they needed.
Agreed that the mill part of Tibalt's Trickery feels pretty pointless and just makes the card more complicated. However it's a funny card, and even if it's not that powerfull I'm glad it exists x)
Divine Gambit was pretty close to being a good removal spell, but it feels way too risky;
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
That white removal is so sad...
And they gave red a counter? An extremely clunky and suboptimal counter? Are they crazy?
In Standard you can cast Containment Priest EOT, then cast this. Against an aggro deck they most likely will drop a land or something. No the worst ever.
As for Tibalt's Trickery, the mill could matter if they just scryed a number of cards, I guess. I don't know. Lol. Classic Tibalt.
Agreed that the mill part of Tibalt's Trickery feels pretty pointless and just makes the card more complicated. However it's a funny card, and even if it's not that powerfull I'm glad it exists x)
There's also Spellshift if you like that kind of effect.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
the conditional part of divine gambit wasn't really necessary in its printed form. white is so far behind everything and thats just a huge liability that will relegate this card to the unplayable pile
red getting a counterspell is interesting, but that does indeed feel too complex
edit: wait wait wait... **** this white card. its double white. that's restrictive. they get to plop out a permanent of their choice, so that's massive ******* downside. its restrictive in what it can exile instead of just exiling any permanent. and its a sorcery? what the **** is this? is this one of those good white cards? because if that's good white card design philosophy just stop printing white cards.
The randomness clause on Tibalt's Trickery is obviously a way of preventing from countering their own spell and putting a scried Emrakul straight into play, but it seems like they're leaving the door open for a bit of manipulation.
The randomness clause on Tibalt's Trickery is obviously a way of preventing from countering their own spell and putting a scried Emrakul straight into play, but it seems like they're leaving the door open for a bit of manipulation.
Yeah, that's what I'm also thinking but still ... why not just shuffle or mill a fixed number of cards? As a fervent defender of randomness, it pains my heart to see needlessly complicated design like this one depreciate the already not so great opinion of players about randomness.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
The random mill is almost certainly a way to prevent using it to cheat in a fatty/expensive spell. While a shuffle ala Chaos Warp could accomplish the same thing, I believe they've been trying to cut back on shuffle effects in standard, as they represent a "loading screen" in competitive paper play. It can't just mill a set number of cards, because then you'd be able to just set up your spell that far down. By milling 1-3 cards, though, there's uncertainty and inconsistency that prevents it from being a reliable way to cheat out (if you put your spell 4 cards down, you might only mill 1 and one of the other two cards could be a spell you hit first. Any higher, and you risk milling it out). So basically they were trying to solve the "how can we make this random without shuffling" puzzle, and milling a random number between 1 and 3 (easily determined using a d6) seems like the best solution.
I like that red is getting new stuff, but I wish things like Tibalt's Trickery and Wheel of Misfortune were less complicated, straightforward effects. Imagine explaining these to newer players.
The wheel is especially great as its so overly text-heavy and complicated , as in casual tables you will know what the card is about and they have basically no clue what they are choosing.
That way you can profit of the card (till you played enough that they know the card too).
For this counterspell variation it seems overly text-heavy just to get a random effect and theres absolutely no upside to it at all as its so random.
Forget all the complex milling and exiling; the takeaway here is "red Counterspell". Any spell. For only 1R.
Sure, but that ramp spell you countered is now an Emrakul. Polymorph is very hit or miss unless you build your deck to it. This thing's best use will be pointed at yourself, so functionality as a counterspell is rare, if at all.
Forget all the complex milling and exiling; the takeaway here is "red Counterspell". Any spell. For only 1R.
Sure, but that ramp spell you countered is now an Emrakul. Polymorph is very hit or miss unless you build your deck to it. This thing's best use will be pointed at yourself, so functionality as a counterspell is rare, if at all.
Alternatively, it could be a pump spell that doesn't do them any good in the situation. It's a gamble either way but is a gamble I would probably be willing to take.
The random mill is almost certainly a way to prevent using it to cheat in a fatty/expensive spell. While a shuffle ala Chaos Warp could accomplish the same thing, I believe they've been trying to cut back on shuffle effects in standard, as they represent a "loading screen" in competitive paper play. It can't just mill a set number of cards, because then you'd be able to just set up your spell that far down. By milling 1-3 cards, though, there's uncertainty and inconsistency that prevents it from being a reliable way to cheat out (if you put your spell 4 cards down, you might only mill 1 and one of the other two cards could be a spell you hit first. Any higher, and you risk milling it out). So basically they were trying to solve the "how can we make this random without shuffling" puzzle, and milling a random number between 1 and 3 (easily determined using a d6) seems like the best solution.
Just mill a higher number then, like 5? If you don't want the caster to abuse it, you can also make it so that it can't target your own spells. This is an inelegant and overly complicated way to solve a problem that might not even exist (tournament play of a random card?).
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
What's the deal with the mill part of that red counterspell? I feel like it makes the design needlessly complicated and doesn't add anything.
EDIT: Is it to prevent abuse but without having to shuffle a library? If it's for that, that seems silly.
Yes I think it is, and agreed. Would be so much simpler if it just said "counter target spell you don't control" if they were that concerned about it being abused to cast your own spells for free.
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I decided to make a new thread since these three showed up a while after Toralf did. Here we have some of that "bad" white removal, the weirdest polymorph spell to day... and the normal art of Tyvar Kell.
Source: Card Image Gallery
And they gave red a counter? An extremely clunky and suboptimal counter? Are they crazy?
EDIT: Is it to prevent abuse but without having to shuffle a library? If it's for that, that seems silly.
im Never using divine gambit in edh I will wager (depending on the deck) a million bucks the opponent cheats out Omniscience or something just as game ending
Maybe it shall add the flavor of red‘s affinity for randomness and chaos.
The main design is already chaotic though, I don't think there was a need to add a useless die roll or other random determination, just to mill some cards that won't be used in any way. Just make the spell's controller shuffle their library if you want to prevent top deck shenanigans.
Divine Gambit was pretty close to being a good removal spell, but it feels way too risky;
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
In Standard you can cast Containment Priest EOT, then cast this. Against an aggro deck they most likely will drop a land or something. No the worst ever.
As for Tibalt's Trickery, the mill could matter if they just scryed a number of cards, I guess. I don't know. Lol. Classic Tibalt.
There's also Spellshift if you like that kind of effect.
red getting a counterspell is interesting, but that does indeed feel too complex
edit: wait wait wait... **** this white card. its double white. that's restrictive. they get to plop out a permanent of their choice, so that's massive ******* downside. its restrictive in what it can exile instead of just exiling any permanent. and its a sorcery? what the **** is this? is this one of those good white cards? because if that's good white card design philosophy just stop printing white cards.
Yeah, that's what I'm also thinking but still ... why not just shuffle or mill a fixed number of cards? As a fervent defender of randomness, it pains my heart to see needlessly complicated design like this one depreciate the already not so great opinion of players about randomness.
doesn't the “3” option counter a Sensei's Divining Top since all three cards you can see get put into the yard so they are stuck in the dark
The wheel is especially great as its so overly text-heavy and complicated , as in casual tables you will know what the card is about and they have basically no clue what they are choosing.
That way you can profit of the card (till you played enough that they know the card too).
For this counterspell variation it seems overly text-heavy just to get a random effect and theres absolutely no upside to it at all as its so random.
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Alternatively, it could be a pump spell that doesn't do them any good in the situation. It's a gamble either way but is a gamble I would probably be willing to take.
Just mill a higher number then, like 5? If you don't want the caster to abuse it, you can also make it so that it can't target your own spells. This is an inelegant and overly complicated way to solve a problem that might not even exist (tournament play of a random card?).
Yes I think it is, and agreed. Would be so much simpler if it just said "counter target spell you don't control" if they were that concerned about it being abused to cast your own spells for free.