Just to clarify: the problem is not that this is playable everywhere. It's not. It's that people THINK it is. This turns into a even more useless Darksteel Relic in the late game, when your commander has finally stuck in play and is there doing its thing. Lots of people will learn that the hard way. Watch EDHRec for the next six months (Or six months after the pandemic, whichever metric you want to use); this will drop in use as even the Omnath, Locus of Mana player drops this in favor of mana rocks that do something else later on. Frankly, I would preferred this as a 4-mana commander-only (casting and abilities) Gilded Lotus to maybe help Voltron decks, but we're way past that point.
I remember opening an Electrodominance during the RNA Prerelease, and getting offered twice what I paid for for said PR for the card. I kept it because my Jaya Ballard, Task Mage deck needed it, and saw the price drop after 6 weeks. Is it a bad marketing practice for Wizards? Yes. Will this send shockwaves through cEDH? Maybe. Will this kill casual Commander? Of course not.
Flashy card, beautiful art and iconic effect. Absolutely useless (for the first cast) in my Sliver Legion deck. Chromatic Lantern seems way better for 5-color decks. Is it a bad card? Not at all. Some decks will love it, getting out a 4-cost commander on turn 1 is just great.
...why are people freaking out over this? It's 1 card out of 99 that's generally only going to be really good if you draw it in your opening hand. It doesn't even ramp you beyond that initial burst like the rest of the fast mana in the format. Seriously for every game you open it and run out the gate face first into a board wipe or counterspell and have to wait WAY longer to do commandery things, you'll top deck it on turn thirty five where it doesn't do anything. Is it cause of cEDH? Cause the only two decks I could really see this kind of pushing even more are Urza and Godo, and lets be honest those two are kinda there own problem. This feels like a card where if I open it I'd be happy to play it, but not playing it also seems fine.
Honestly everyone seems so eager to bust out the pitchforks and torches for a one shot mana boost in a format with sol ring and mana crypt. Is it the rarity? It's a freaking lotus, and if want to play with the dang thing you ONLY EVER NEED TO BUY ONE.
The Lotus is a major boost for mono-color decks and decks with mono-color partners. Some Commanders can be dropped early to provide some benefit like Nylea, Keen-Eyed or Thassa, God of the Sea. Then some are more of timed plays like holding up mana to get out God-Eternal Oketra with mana spared to speed on some creature spells to get those 4/4 tokens. God-Eternal Rhonas when you're ready to attack hard that turn.
Yeah, its situationally broken but pretty tame on average. I'm going to jam a copy in my Najeela and Korvold decks because they're conducive to abusing it, but other than that my other decks dgaf.
Interesting how the Commander people are freaking out over a card that even if every single deck ran it, would still be 1 out of 100 in the deck, sure, this will be ridiculously expensive, but banning it? ONE card out of 100 isn't going to break any format wide open considering the original Black Lotus or Mana Crypt are already legal in it.
Interesting how the Commander people are freaking out over a card that even if every single deck ran it, would still be 1 out of 100 in the deck, sure, this will be ridiculously expensive, but banning it? ONE card out of 100 isn't going to break any format wide open considering the original Black Lotus or Mana Crypt are already legal in it.
Since when is the original Black Lotus legal in commander ?
Interesting how the Commander people are freaking out over a card that even if every single deck ran it, would still be 1 out of 100 in the deck, sure, this will be ridiculously expensive, but banning it? ONE card out of 100 isn't going to break any format wide open considering the original Black Lotus or Mana Crypt are already legal in it.
Pretty sure black lotus has been banned in commander since the beginning. Also it's not 1 out of 100, you get an opening hand of seven cards out of a 99 card deck, with a free mulligan, so that would be a 7 out of 99 chance, twice, every game to have it in the opening hand.
Interesting how the Commander people are freaking out over a card that even if every single deck ran it, would still be 1 out of 100 in the deck, sure, this will be ridiculously expensive, but banning it? ONE card out of 100 isn't going to break any format wide open considering the original Black Lotus or Mana Crypt are already legal in it.
Man if wotc's opinion on the format is similar to this we are really screwed
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I would consider it in some of my mono colored decks and in my Bruna deck. My mono colored are lower power so I don't know if I really need it there. It would be nice for my Avacyn deck I guess.
The power ceiling on this is definitely very high but I can also see this causing a lot of people to lose. This is not free to put in your deck and while most decks would want to power out their commander early if they can the fact that this does nothing else can leave you very vulnerable with a big target on your head. I think this will end up in far more decks than it should and most of the time would be better served by a mana dork or a talisman or similar permanent ramp..
I'm acknowledging what some are saying and starting to think it could indeed be a wait and see for normal "Casual" commander. There are drawbacks to it... Still, we should keep a critical eye on it.
It will probably be softbanned by groups which already ban fast mana such as Sol Ring and Mana Crypt (e.g. the Mtggoldfish Commander Clash crew).
The card is nut crazy in cEDH but I don't care about the format.
The card is nut crazy in 1v1 or French Commander and there is no doubt it should get banned here.
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
People calling for a ban of this seem to be forgetting that Lion's Eye Diamond exists, and is, frankly, a better card. Everything this card can do, LED can do. And the format hasn't collapsed because of it.
I think they both have very different uses, despite cosmetic similarities. You are never using LED for a fair purpose. You aren't using LED to power out your commander on turn 1 unless something seriously busted is already going on in your deck.
This card, on the other hand, just randomly appears in your hand some games and makes your commander cost 3 less to cast, which is a nuts unfair advantage even if your deck is totally "fair" otherwise.
Yes, lion's eye diamond does amazing things if you want it to. Same for mana crypt. Those are both $100+ cards. How does the format benefit from printing a new one of these things?
LED and Mana Crypt are also used outside of EDH. This can't be. We're going to see just how much EDH has an effect on prices. I expect this to settle between $30-50. Maybe even less. Regular printing, of course.
The card is nut crazy in cEDH but I don't care about the format.
I'm actually curious about how busted it is in CEDH. Not saying it's bad, and far from an expert on the format, but CEDH is already built to deal with powerful turn 1 plays and there are a bunch of Commanders where due to there cost this is closer to a lotus peddle, which can be used to power out non commander cards early (tutors, non commander combo and lock prices, other ramp, interaction)
I'm sure I'll get flak for this, but I don't see it. Yes, it spurts out your commander faster, but all I'm seeing is a way for you to get your commander(s) killed far sooner and then you have to wait longer to try and do the thing you wanted in the first place. For some commanders they'll come out and....that's it, they'll just plop down on the table with nothing going on as they came out too early.
Not saying the card is bad,it's not, but it seems like people hoping for the best for this and nine times out of ten you're going to get disappointed when your commander comes down with no protection and gets removed.
You assume the commander coming out won't have some sort of protection?
Sweepers always work, but what happens when your opponent uses this lotus to ramp into Mikaeus, the unhallowed and then straps on a pair of lightning greaves before you can respond?!
That's one crazy ramped out zombie! Azami, lady of scrolls and Arcanis the omnipotent also come out way too early and potentially draw a ton of cards with this.
Even a turn 1 Kopala, warden of waves can be difficult to deal with
And what about a turn 1 Arixmethes, slumbering isle?! You certainly can't target that early ramp easily without Wasteland, strip mine, etc in the opener.
Wasteland/Strip Mine in the opening hand is just as likely as your opponent getting Jeweled Lotus in their opening hand.
This card is an absolute abomination. You can howl at the moon that it's not great in every deck, but that doesn't matter.its amazing in most decks. Printed in a single set at mythic rare. The decks that want this will be forced to pay stupid amounts to have access to it. Sol Ring has been printed something like 23 times at uncommon over the entire history of this game... And is still 3 to 5 bucks. And for what? What great game play does it offer commander tables? The lottery effect of just going "oops, I win".
We already have swaths of the commander players who don't like the auto include nature of sol ring. Hell me personally my distaste for sol ring is exactly that it creates lottery situations where someone just goes... Oh, sol ring into arcane signet. Turn 2 a 5 cmc commander with hexproof. Now we get to increase the chances of these stupid starts that create non games. People will play this lottery and steal games. To participate in this lottery you'll need to get a copy of this $200 card. It's infuriating. We ask for cool new legends to build around, and they jump the shark. This card feels like it was designed by someone down at the local card shop and marketed by people who don't have to pay for thier cards...
Interesting how the Commander people are freaking out over a card that even if every single deck ran it, would still be 1 out of 100 in the deck, sure, this will be ridiculously expensive, but banning it? ONE card out of 100 isn't going to break any format wide open considering the original Black Lotus or Mana Crypt are already legal in it.
Pretty sure black lotus has been banned in commander since the beginning. Also it's not 1 out of 100, you get an opening hand of seven cards out of a 99 card deck, with a free mulligan, so that would be a 7 out of 99 chance, twice, every game to have it in the opening hand.
Pick a one-off card in any of your decks, shuffle that deck, and draw an opening hand. Do this until you draw that card. Then do it again. See how many proper shuffles and draws it takes to get a specific card, in an opening hand, twice.
Yes, lion's eye diamond does amazing things if you want it to. Same for mana crypt. Those are both $100+ cards. How does the format benefit from printing a new one of these things?
I think ultimately, Commander is going to benefit from this card.
My initial thoughts were that this card was largely an unnecessary printing that nobody really asked for or needed, but as I sat on it for a bit, I think that mindset comes from a player who plays 3+ colors in the format. Mono colored decks have a lot more explosive potential with this card around, and even dual-color decks. Decks that are, at somewhat of a disadvantage in the format at large.
I still don't think this is really a card that anyone asked for or wanted, but I have come around to starting to think about what decks gain the biggest advantage from it - and those decks are decks that need more help to shine in a format that is getting more and more complex and powerful.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Just to clarify: the problem is not that this is playable everywhere. It's not. It's that people THINK it is. This turns into a even more useless Darksteel Relic in the late game, when your commander has finally stuck in play and is there doing its thing. Lots of people will learn that the hard way. Watch EDHRec for the next six months (Or six months after the pandemic, whichever metric you want to use); this will drop in use as even the Omnath, Locus of Mana player drops this in favor of mana rocks that do something else later on. Frankly, I would preferred this as a 4-mana commander-only (casting and abilities) Gilded Lotus to maybe help Voltron decks, but we're way past that point.
I remember opening an Electrodominance during the RNA Prerelease, and getting offered twice what I paid for for said PR for the card. I kept it because my Jaya Ballard, Task Mage deck needed it, and saw the price drop after 6 weeks. Is it a bad marketing practice for Wizards? Yes. Will this send shockwaves through cEDH? Maybe. Will this kill casual Commander? Of course not.
I'm pretty sure Omnath still likes this no matter what. You just crack it and add 3 that just stays there. It's not busted in every deck, but this card makes getting out more pricey commanders even easier at no cost. People are over exaggerating it being universally broken but I also think that people are gratefully underestimating how good this can be in one/ two color commander decks.
The power ceiling on this is definitely very high but I can also see this causing a lot of people to lose. This is not free to put in your deck and while most decks would want to power out their commander early if they can the fact that this does nothing else can leave you very vulnerable with a big target on your head. I think this will end up in far more decks than it should and most of the time would be better served by a mana dork or a talisman or similar permanent ramp..
big targets don't matter if you're in a position to oppress the table.
it also has the unintended effect of showing up in casual groups and just wrecking them. a casual deck that sticks this early and gets their commander out sooner is in a far better position than one that didn't.
late game it pays off your commander tax. if you made it to late game chances are your commander has died at least once. you're basically getting that tax paid off. that's always helpful.
regardless, so what if its a dead card late game? so what if its a little more narrow? how many decks have you seen throw away a mana crypt on tur 8 to fuel something else because they were set on mana. its amazing when it needs to be, and like literally every other card it can be junked when you don't need it.
it also begs the question, is it even going to be a dead card late game? i have a feldon build, he dies a lot, this helps pay for it. meanwhile other decks can win with the right hand within turns 1-3, often accidentally just from the acceleration afforded in the early game. the card is nonsense.
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Spoiler EditorI remember opening an Electrodominance during the RNA Prerelease, and getting offered twice what I paid for for said PR for the card. I kept it because my Jaya Ballard, Task Mage deck needed it, and saw the price drop after 6 weeks. Is it a bad marketing practice for Wizards? Yes. Will this send shockwaves through cEDH? Maybe. Will this kill casual Commander? Of course not.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Honestly everyone seems so eager to bust out the pitchforks and torches for a one shot mana boost in a format with sol ring and mana crypt. Is it the rarity? It's a freaking lotus, and if want to play with the dang thing you ONLY EVER NEED TO BUY ONE.
Liliana, Heretical Healer is also a good choice.
So you get to recast it with Lurrus or Muldrotha. So what? You're commander is already in play and the lotus doesn't do anything.
Decks that it's good in like Urza or Jhoira already have a ton of artifacts to work with and this doesn't enable anything that they can't already do.
Sol Ring is a better card.
Since when is the original Black Lotus legal in commander ?
Never was and never will be.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Pretty sure black lotus has been banned in commander since the beginning. Also it's not 1 out of 100, you get an opening hand of seven cards out of a 99 card deck, with a free mulligan, so that would be a 7 out of 99 chance, twice, every game to have it in the opening hand.
Man if wotc's opinion on the format is similar to this we are really screwed
It will probably be softbanned by groups which already ban fast mana such as Sol Ring and Mana Crypt (e.g. the Mtggoldfish Commander Clash crew).
The card is nut crazy in cEDH but I don't care about the format.
The card is nut crazy in 1v1 or French Commander and there is no doubt it should get banned here.
Modern :
Legacy :
LED and Mana Crypt are also used outside of EDH. This can't be. We're going to see just how much EDH has an effect on prices. I expect this to settle between $30-50. Maybe even less. Regular printing, of course.
I'm actually curious about how busted it is in CEDH. Not saying it's bad, and far from an expert on the format, but CEDH is already built to deal with powerful turn 1 plays and there are a bunch of Commanders where due to there cost this is closer to a lotus peddle, which can be used to power out non commander cards early (tutors, non commander combo and lock prices, other ramp, interaction)
Wasteland/Strip Mine in the opening hand is just as likely as your opponent getting Jeweled Lotus in their opening hand.
We already have swaths of the commander players who don't like the auto include nature of sol ring. Hell me personally my distaste for sol ring is exactly that it creates lottery situations where someone just goes... Oh, sol ring into arcane signet. Turn 2 a 5 cmc commander with hexproof. Now we get to increase the chances of these stupid starts that create non games. People will play this lottery and steal games. To participate in this lottery you'll need to get a copy of this $200 card. It's infuriating. We ask for cool new legends to build around, and they jump the shark. This card feels like it was designed by someone down at the local card shop and marketed by people who don't have to pay for thier cards...
Pick a one-off card in any of your decks, shuffle that deck, and draw an opening hand. Do this until you draw that card. Then do it again. See how many proper shuffles and draws it takes to get a specific card, in an opening hand, twice.
I think ultimately, Commander is going to benefit from this card.
My initial thoughts were that this card was largely an unnecessary printing that nobody really asked for or needed, but as I sat on it for a bit, I think that mindset comes from a player who plays 3+ colors in the format. Mono colored decks have a lot more explosive potential with this card around, and even dual-color decks. Decks that are, at somewhat of a disadvantage in the format at large.
I still don't think this is really a card that anyone asked for or wanted, but I have come around to starting to think about what decks gain the biggest advantage from it - and those decks are decks that need more help to shine in a format that is getting more and more complex and powerful.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
I'm pretty sure Omnath still likes this no matter what. You just crack it and add 3 that just stays there. It's not busted in every deck, but this card makes getting out more pricey commanders even easier at no cost. People are over exaggerating it being universally broken but I also think that people are gratefully underestimating how good this can be in one/ two color commander decks.
big targets don't matter if you're in a position to oppress the table.
it also has the unintended effect of showing up in casual groups and just wrecking them. a casual deck that sticks this early and gets their commander out sooner is in a far better position than one that didn't.
late game it pays off your commander tax. if you made it to late game chances are your commander has died at least once. you're basically getting that tax paid off. that's always helpful.
regardless, so what if its a dead card late game? so what if its a little more narrow? how many decks have you seen throw away a mana crypt on tur 8 to fuel something else because they were set on mana. its amazing when it needs to be, and like literally every other card it can be junked when you don't need it.
it also begs the question, is it even going to be a dead card late game? i have a feldon build, he dies a lot, this helps pay for it. meanwhile other decks can win with the right hand within turns 1-3, often accidentally just from the acceleration afforded in the early game. the card is nonsense.
It puts out your commander early or pays for tax. There are extremely few decks where this isn’t an auto-include.