I refuse to play with anyone who uses this card. It's extremely detrimental to allow such card to be printed in a format with majority of the players being casual. WTF was they thinking? Mana Crypt is already eating its way into the format, now this???
I don't think its that good and is just a hype card that will be forgotten a week or so after the set comes out. Everything it does can already be achieved with better existing cards.
So, question: The rider that the mana can only be used to cast a commander is pretty 2sticky", right? For example, if you sack it and have Horizon Stone in play, then at the end of a phase it gets transformed into colorless mana - however, that colorless mana can still only be used to cast a commander. Right?
Correct, the mana can only be used to cast your commander. Per the Kruphix entry in Gatherer “If unused mana in your mana pool has any restrictions or riders associated with it (for example, if it was produced by Cavern of Souls), those restrictions or riders will remain associated with that mana when it becomes colorless.”
I have a Kozilek deck full of Eldrazi and was hoping I could use Horizon Stone to float mana from my Workshop to allow me to use Workshop’s mana to cast Eldrazi, but it doesn’t work that way, and it likewise can’t be used to cast anything other than your commander.
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People calling for a ban of this seem to be forgetting that Lion's Eye Diamond exists, and is, frankly, a better card. Everything this card can do, LED can do. And the format hasn't collapsed because of it.
Adding more broken cards that are similar to existing broken cards makes them more likely to ban one, not less. See: Wasteland/ Strip Mine.
As others have pointed out, LED is only better when it is time to combo out. Jeweled Lotus van combo and ramp into commanders far early than they are typically fair for.
It's not that limiting of a restriction to only spend it on a spell that you always have access to.
Not sure why it should be that good there. sure, you use it to pay half of Muldrotha's CMC. Muldrotha hits the battlefield, and you can immediately play it again.
But then it just sits around being mostly useless, a target to be destroyed or even exiled. You can't sac it and play it again and again that turn (which would be possible with any 0-mana artifact otherwise). Is there some special reason you'd like to re-cast Muldrotha? I'm just not seeing it.
Muldrotha is a removal magnet. It also starts at 6 mana. This gets Muldrotha out earlier and can then be recast at no expense. Should Muldrotha die, you've got three of your eight mana ready right here.
right exactly. every single deck will want this and benefit from it
How many black decks do you have that run Dark Ritual?
I can't think of a single deck I have that would want to lose a crucial draw step to this. Maybe if I were building a 5+ CMC commander and needed to guarantee it came out early for the deck to function, I might consider it? But then also this will end up more than $2 so it's not on my radar anyway. I'm sure someone will play this somewhere, but I'd rather have a mana rock.
Someone mentioned Muldrotha. That's the kind of deck I can see that would actually really want this. Specifically, Muldrotha generates a lot of value simply being in play and being in play sooner, means it will generate more value over the course of a game. Either it comes out earlier or the mana saved at the normal time of casting means it comes out with protection. In either case, getting the repeatable value engine happening sooner makes up for the card being just a ritual.
I'm sure I'll get flak for this, but I don't see it. Yes, it spurts out your commander faster, but all I'm seeing is a way for you to get your commander(s) killed far sooner and then you have to wait longer to try and do the thing you wanted in the first place. For some commanders they'll come out and....that's it, they'll just plop down on the table with nothing going on as they came out too early.
Not saying the card is bad,it's not, but it seems like people hoping for the best for this and nine times out of ten you're going to get disappointed when your commander comes down with no protection and gets removed.
You assume the commander coming out won't have some sort of protection?
Sweepers always work, but what happens when your opponent uses this lotus to ramp into Mikaeus, the unhallowed and then straps on a pair of lightning greaves before you can respond?!
That's one crazy ramped out zombie! Azami, lady of scrolls and Arcanis the omnipotent also come out way too early and potentially draw a ton of cards with this.
Even a turn 1 Kopala, warden of waves can be difficult to deal with
And what about a turn 1 Arixmethes, slumbering isle?! You certainly can't target that early ramp easily without Wasteland, strip mine, etc in the opener.
This is a very good card. But it's not as crazy as some of the hype leads you to believe. In practice it will push some decks over the edge and be merely ok in others.
I'm sure I'll get flak for this, but I don't see it. Yes, it spurts out your commander faster, but all I'm seeing is a way for you to get your commander(s) killed far sooner and then you have to wait longer to try and do the thing you wanted in the first place. For some commanders they'll come out and....that's it, they'll just plop down on the table with nothing going on as they came out too early.
Not saying the card is bad,it's not, but it seems like people hoping for the best for this and nine times out of ten you're going to get disappointed when your commander comes down with no protection and gets removed.
You assume the commander coming out won't have some sort of protection?
Sweepers always work, but what happens when your opponent uses this lotus to ramp into Mikaeus, the unhallowed and then straps on a pair of lightning greaves before you can respond?!
That's one crazy ramped out zombie! Azami, lady of scrolls and Arcanis the omnipotent also come out way too early and potentially draw a ton of cards with this.
Even a turn 1 Kopala, warden of waves can be difficult to deal with
And what about a turn 1 Arixmethes, slumbering isle?! You certainly can't target that early ramp easily without Wasteland, strip mine, etc in the opener.
Or jhoira that can just go off the chain on t1. Deal with that on the draw.
But even moving to late game, something like prime speaker zegana, youre pooping her out for basically half cost, potentially drawing a ton, and you can now keep going
Skythrix on t1 is a possibility now too, slap down greaves t2 (or hell t1 with a god hand), **** table repeatedly before they can do anything
Late game and your commander died? There goes the tax.
Need to kill your commander to recast it for more value? Easy!
The list is damn near endless. This card is stupid.
So, someone has put this card up for presale on eBay. as far as I can see it, it is neither the extended art version, nor a foil.
It's on sale for $199.99.
Two have been sold.
yup, and I almost bought 4 for $600 on Card Kingdom before my friend talked me out of it. People are buying into the “It’s BLACK LOTUS!!!” Hype and are paying whatever people are asking out of fear that this will somehow end up as a $300+ card at launch...
With that said:
1. There are other valuable cards in this set (Vamp Tutor and Scroll Rack, at the very least) make this set less of a “get the one card or you lose” type of set... which is going to lead to a lot of packs getting cracked... especially as players tend to dig the “guaranteed foil” and “two legendary slots that might be rare” sort of thing.
2. Even masters sets generally can’t sustain a card having a price tag over $150 or so. If a card is printed in a currently available set, we haven’t really seen any evidence of cards being able to actively maintain that sort of insane value (outside of masterpieces, of course).
3. This is a print to order set, from what I have heard so most initial FOMO worries can calm down.
4. As quite a few people are saying, not every deck NEEDS this card. I expect some of the hype to die down.
Indeed.
What makes this even more broken is that mana can also be divided up to cast two different commanders with partner during the same phase
Does the game also track the mana's condition beyond the phase if not spent right away?
For example, if the lotus is cracked with Omnath, locus of mana or Kruphix, god of horizons in play (or used partially to cast one of them), can any leftover mana be used during subsequent phases (or turns) on something other than commander casting costs? Technically, with Kruphix out the colorless mana left over isn't even the same mana as the colored mana created by the lotus previously, right?
Indeed.
What makes this even more broken is that mana can also be divided up to cast two different commanders with partner during the same phase
Does the game also track the mana's condition beyond the phase if not spent right away?
For example, if the lotus is cracked with Omnath, locus of mana or Kruphix, god of horizons in play (or used partially to cast one of them), can any leftover mana be used during subsequent phases (or turns) on something other than commander casting costs? Technically, with Kruphix out the colorless mana left over isn't even the same mana as the colored mana created by the lotus previously, right?
Interesting question. With Horizon Stone in the set I imagine this will need to be addressed.
You assume the commander coming out won't have some sort of protection?
Sweepers always work, but what happens when your opponent uses this lotus to ramp into Mikaeus, the unhallowed and then straps on a pair of lightning greaves before you can respond?!
That's one crazy ramped out zombie! Azami, lady of scrolls and Arcanis the omnipotent also come out way too early and potentially draw a ton of cards with this.
Even a turn 1 Kopala, warden of waves can be difficult to deal with
And what about a turn 1 Arixmethes, slumbering isle?! You certainly can't target that early ramp easily without Wasteland, strip mine, etc in the opener.
You make some good points, but your problem is the bolded word. There is likely a table of people and it's unlikely that all of what you have stated won't go unanswered to which then you've used a card to speed out your commander and now he costs 8 mana and you have to wait even longer to do the thing you wanted in the first place.
In your Mikaeus example so you've plopped out your commander on turn 3, boots turn 2, so all you have is your commander and by turn three there's plenty of removal that exists and all you've really done is swing for 5. Strong? Yes. Unbeatable? No. That and plenty of removal exists at 1-3 mana for not only the boots but also Mikaeus himself. Mikaeus works better when you already have creatures out as a way to stop board wipes, but in your example you nothing but that and that's still a flimsy board state.
Are people always going to have answers? No, and sometimes that play will lead to a strong and potentially game winning state, but all you've really done is put a target on your back from the get go.
Indeed.
What makes this even more broken is that mana can also be divided up to cast two different commanders with partner during the same phase
Does the game also track the mana's condition beyond the phase if not spent right away?
For example, if the lotus is cracked with Omnath, locus of mana or Kruphix, god of horizons in play (or used partially to cast one of them), can any leftover mana be used during subsequent phases (or turns) on something other than commander casting costs? Technically, with Kruphix out the colorless mana left over isn't even the same mana as the colored mana created by the lotus previously, right?
Interesting question. With Horizon Stone in the set I imagine this will need to be addressed.
SonofaBith75 answered that earlier on this thread. Infact on the same page...
People who want to break it will break it... But why are we encouraging it?
Is there any fair uses for this it seems super meh if you are using it fairly, Oh cool you got your commander out 3 turns earlier, Kill it? Is it even good if you don't immediately combo out?
I'm very happy to be able to get the Diamond cycle back at common. The Lotus is a nice budget alternative to Lion's Eye Diamond for decks that want it but don't have five billion dollars to huck at a single card. Course, cards like Vilis, Broker of Blood will want both.
As DirkGently mentioned on Nexus, Jeweled Lotus is another symptom of a problem seen in Wizards of the Coast's viewpoint of EDH / Commander and how they often fail to grasp what makes it good on a basic level. They're willing to print stupid broken things in the format because it's not a "real" format. Command Tower in a lot of aspects was the first wake up call. It's simply perfect mana fixing for no cost that's cheaper to get a hold of than City of Brass, Reflecting Pool, Forbidden Orchard, and Mana Confluence. Now we got a Black Lotus reprint stapled onto the format because balance doesn't matter If it's just caaaasual. Remember how competitive players used to poke fun at them by calling them "filthy" casuals? Go look at Standard right now.
This is literally the worst blatant attempt to push boxes to gambling addicts since Jace, the Mind Sculptor which was roughly sitting at around $200 at the time it was first printed in Worldwake. Granted, Jeweled Lotus isn't an auto-include though it is good enough to run in a majority of decks especially those who play cEDH. Whether the card is insanely broken or niche, it doesn't change the possibility that Wizards of the Coast printed this in order to move boxes because they care far more about short-term money than the long-term health of the format. That's the main problem not the cards themselves. Wizards of the Coast doesn't have as much insight into the format as the EDH / Commander Rules Committee does.
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ALL you winers should hear yourself "Ban it!" "I'm not playing WITH THAT!" "It'll break the game!"
Guess what! It's ONLY good for casting the Commander, not any activated abilities. Can't be used w/ a 4+ color deck that well. 3 color decks will struggle w/ it. 1 color & 2 color will use it.
"BUT what about recursion???" So what? They get to cut their Commander's recast cost by 3, maybe 6 if they dump other resources, time & mana into getting it back.
Personally? I like it. Anyone who doesn't like it or won't play it can send 'em to me. I'll find plenty of uses.
Also, colorless mana isn't a color, so for those that are thinking colorless decks, look elsewhere.
Time walk was weakened w/ 3 - 5 cost cards (or as w/ Final Fortune & other's that outright kill you if you do not win that turn, for a 2 mana costs). So many variations of the Moxen come out; no one bats an eye...
Snooze-fest here... you don't like it, don't play it. Just don't have a conniption fit when someone else does.
I do think it's very funny that a card printed with functionality that only works in Commander could potentially be too powerful in the format and be banned in it (After they stop distributing boxes, of course.)
Despite the fact that there's been tons of cards come out that large swaths of people claimed were problematic auto includes and then they tested them only to find out they weren't? Remember how everyone thought Drannith Magistrate was going to be an auto include in EDH / Commander and then 6 months later it didn't break 4% of decklists? I remember when a friend of mine thought that Tarmogoyf was an auto include in any EDH / Commander deck running Green when it simply wasn't true at all.
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
ALL you winers should hear yourself "Ban it!" "I'm not playing WITH THAT!" "It'll break the game!"
Guess what! It's ONLY good for casting the Commander, not any activated abilities. Can't be used w/ a 4+ color deck that well. 3 color decks will struggle w/ it. 1 color & 2 color will use it.
"BUT what about recursion???" So what? They get to cut their Commander's recast cost by 3, maybe 6 if they dump other resources, time & mana into getting it back.
Personally? I like it. Anyone who doesn't like it or won't play it can send 'em to me. I'll find plenty of uses.
Also, colorless mana isn't a color, so for those that are thinking colorless decks, look elsewhere.
Time walk was weakened w/ 3 - 5 cost cards (or as w/ Final Fortune & other's that outright kill you if you do not win that turn, for a 2 mana costs). So many variations of the Moxen come out; no one bats an eye...
Snooze-fest here... you don't like it, don't play it. Just don't have a conniption fit when someone else does.
Colorless decks most certainly can use it, so long as you aren’t using it for C-specific mana costs. There is nothing stopping me from making 3 white/blue/black/red/green mana to cast my Kozilek, Butcher of Truth commander. Spend 5 minutes on EDHREC and see just how many Eldrazi-led decks run LED’s. Or let me save you 5 minutes, the answer is pretty much every one where budget isn’t an issue.
ALL you winers should hear yourself "Ban it!" "I'm not playing WITH THAT!" "It'll break the game!"
Guess what! It's ONLY good for casting the Commander, not any activated abilities. Can't be used w/ a 4+ color deck that well. 3 color decks will struggle w/ it. 1 color & 2 color will use it.
"BUT what about recursion???" So what? They get to cut their Commander's recast cost by 3, maybe 6 if they dump other resources, time & mana into getting it back.
Personally? I like it. Anyone who doesn't like it or won't play it can send 'em to me. I'll find plenty of uses.
Also, colorless mana isn't a color, so for those that are thinking colorless decks, look elsewhere.
Time walk was weakened w/ 3 - 5 cost cards (or as w/ Final Fortune & other's that outright kill you if you do not win that turn, for a 2 mana costs). So many variations of the Moxen come out; no one bats an eye...
Snooze-fest here... you don't like it, don't play it. Just don't have a conniption fit when someone else does.
Colorless decks most certainly can use it, so long as you aren’t using it for C-specific mana costs. There is nothing stopping me from making 3 white/blue/black/red/green mana to cast my Kozilek, Butcher of Truth commander. Spend 5 minutes on EDHREC and see just how many Eldrazi-led decks run LED’s. Or let me save you 5 minutes, the answer is pretty much every one where budget isn’t an issue.
Ok, may be wrong there... But not seeing anything else said. But I guess there isn't much to argue then, right?
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Correct, the mana can only be used to cast your commander. Per the Kruphix entry in Gatherer “If unused mana in your mana pool has any restrictions or riders associated with it (for example, if it was produced by Cavern of Souls), those restrictions or riders will remain associated with that mana when it becomes colorless.”
I have a Kozilek deck full of Eldrazi and was hoping I could use Horizon Stone to float mana from my Workshop to allow me to use Workshop’s mana to cast Eldrazi, but it doesn’t work that way, and it likewise can’t be used to cast anything other than your commander.
It's on sale for $199.99.
Two have been sold.
Adding more broken cards that are similar to existing broken cards makes them more likely to ban one, not less. See: Wasteland/ Strip Mine.
As others have pointed out, LED is only better when it is time to combo out. Jeweled Lotus van combo and ramp into commanders far early than they are typically fair for.
It's not that limiting of a restriction to only spend it on a spell that you always have access to.
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I can't think of a single deck I have that would want to lose a crucial draw step to this. Maybe if I were building a 5+ CMC commander and needed to guarantee it came out early for the deck to function, I might consider it? But then also this will end up more than $2 so it's not on my radar anyway. I'm sure someone will play this somewhere, but I'd rather have a mana rock.
Someone mentioned Muldrotha. That's the kind of deck I can see that would actually really want this. Specifically, Muldrotha generates a lot of value simply being in play and being in play sooner, means it will generate more value over the course of a game. Either it comes out earlier or the mana saved at the normal time of casting means it comes out with protection. In either case, getting the repeatable value engine happening sooner makes up for the card being just a ritual.
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Gadwick, the Wizened does a bit better with Lotus freeing up other mana sources for the X draw.
You assume the commander coming out won't have some sort of protection?
Sweepers always work, but what happens when your opponent uses this lotus to ramp into Mikaeus, the unhallowed and then straps on a pair of lightning greaves before you can respond?!
That's one crazy ramped out zombie!
Azami, lady of scrolls and Arcanis the omnipotent also come out way too early and potentially draw a ton of cards with this.
Even a turn 1 Kopala, warden of waves can be difficult to deal with
And what about a turn 1 Arixmethes, slumbering isle?! You certainly can't target that early ramp easily without Wasteland, strip mine, etc in the opener.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
Or jhoira that can just go off the chain on t1. Deal with that on the draw.
But even moving to late game, something like prime speaker zegana, youre pooping her out for basically half cost, potentially drawing a ton, and you can now keep going
Skythrix on t1 is a possibility now too, slap down greaves t2 (or hell t1 with a god hand), **** table repeatedly before they can do anything
Late game and your commander died? There goes the tax.
Need to kill your commander to recast it for more value? Easy!
The list is damn near endless. This card is stupid.
yup, and I almost bought 4 for $600 on Card Kingdom before my friend talked me out of it. People are buying into the “It’s BLACK LOTUS!!!” Hype and are paying whatever people are asking out of fear that this will somehow end up as a $300+ card at launch...
With that said:
1. There are other valuable cards in this set (Vamp Tutor and Scroll Rack, at the very least) make this set less of a “get the one card or you lose” type of set... which is going to lead to a lot of packs getting cracked... especially as players tend to dig the “guaranteed foil” and “two legendary slots that might be rare” sort of thing.
2. Even masters sets generally can’t sustain a card having a price tag over $150 or so. If a card is printed in a currently available set, we haven’t really seen any evidence of cards being able to actively maintain that sort of insane value (outside of masterpieces, of course).
3. This is a print to order set, from what I have heard so most initial FOMO worries can calm down.
4. As quite a few people are saying, not every deck NEEDS this card. I expect some of the hype to die down.
What makes this even more broken is that mana can also be divided up to cast two different commanders with partner during the same phase
Does the game also track the mana's condition beyond the phase if not spent right away?
For example, if the lotus is cracked with Omnath, locus of mana or Kruphix, god of horizons in play (or used partially to cast one of them), can any leftover mana be used during subsequent phases (or turns) on something other than commander casting costs? Technically, with Kruphix out the colorless mana left over isn't even the same mana as the colored mana created by the lotus previously, right?
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
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You make some good points, but your problem is the bolded word. There is likely a table of people and it's unlikely that all of what you have stated won't go unanswered to which then you've used a card to speed out your commander and now he costs 8 mana and you have to wait even longer to do the thing you wanted in the first place.
In your Mikaeus example so you've plopped out your commander on turn 3, boots turn 2, so all you have is your commander and by turn three there's plenty of removal that exists and all you've really done is swing for 5. Strong? Yes. Unbeatable? No. That and plenty of removal exists at 1-3 mana for not only the boots but also Mikaeus himself. Mikaeus works better when you already have creatures out as a way to stop board wipes, but in your example you nothing but that and that's still a flimsy board state.
Are people always going to have answers? No, and sometimes that play will lead to a strong and potentially game winning state, but all you've really done is put a target on your back from the get go.
Again, I'm not saying that card isn't strong, it is, but it's not the holy promised land that will break Commander like some people believe. Mid to late game I don't want to be drawing this, I'd rather be seeing a Thran Dynamo, Hedron Archive, Mind Stone, Commander's Sphere, Dreamstone Hedron, Magnifying Glass, Bonder's Ornament or any number of other mana rocks that do more.
SonofaBith75 answered that earlier on this thread. Infact on the same page...
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Is there any fair uses for this it seems super meh if you are using it fairly, Oh cool you got your commander out 3 turns earlier, Kill it? Is it even good if you don't immediately combo out?
Turbo out Zurgo Helmsmasher and armageddon great... are we having fun yet?
I am considering it for Glissa, the traitor because I can reuse it but I also can't really turbo her out with it.
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This is literally the worst blatant attempt to push boxes to gambling addicts since Jace, the Mind Sculptor which was roughly sitting at around $200 at the time it was first printed in Worldwake. Granted, Jeweled Lotus isn't an auto-include though it is good enough to run in a majority of decks especially those who play cEDH. Whether the card is insanely broken or niche, it doesn't change the possibility that Wizards of the Coast printed this in order to move boxes because they care far more about short-term money than the long-term health of the format. That's the main problem not the cards themselves. Wizards of the Coast doesn't have as much insight into the format as the EDH / Commander Rules Committee does.
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Guess what! It's ONLY good for casting the Commander, not any activated abilities. Can't be used w/ a 4+ color deck that well. 3 color decks will struggle w/ it. 1 color & 2 color will use it.
"BUT what about recursion???" So what? They get to cut their Commander's recast cost by 3, maybe 6 if they dump other resources, time & mana into getting it back.
Personally? I like it. Anyone who doesn't like it or won't play it can send 'em to me. I'll find plenty of uses.
Also, colorless mana isn't a color, so for those that are thinking colorless decks, look elsewhere.
Time walk was weakened w/ 3 - 5 cost cards (or as w/ Final Fortune & other's that outright kill you if you do not win that turn, for a 2 mana costs). So many variations of the Moxen come out; no one bats an eye...
Snooze-fest here... you don't like it, don't play it. Just don't have a conniption fit when someone else does.
Now settle down class; it's not going to get an emergency banning:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/jkk8m7/rules_committee_says_jeweled_lotus_will_not_see/
Rules committee are A-OK w/ it. Either go along w/ the Jonses or get left behind:
https://twitter.com/mtgcommander/status/1321933001819889664
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Wrong.
Colorless decks most certainly can use it, so long as you aren’t using it for C-specific mana costs. There is nothing stopping me from making 3 white/blue/black/red/green mana to cast my Kozilek, Butcher of Truth commander. Spend 5 minutes on EDHREC and see just how many Eldrazi-led decks run LED’s. Or let me save you 5 minutes, the answer is pretty much every one where budget isn’t an issue.
Ok, may be wrong there... But not seeing anything else said. But I guess there isn't much to argue then, right?