People are overreacting a little bit but whatever. Better over this than over a black woman being a planeswalker or something.
yep I did realize that actually
as a matter of fact it just accured to me there might be a reason walking dead was chosen in the first place which is still a bad choice what some of you may not know is...hasbro...owns...the walking dead hasbro bought entertainment one for 4 billion Last year (then again amc is the one airing new episodes)
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If it's "it ruins my immersion" then why are other, real-world, things allowed? (like Arabian Nights, Shakespeare quotes, or Frankenstein's Monster)
I'm inclined to believe that people are upset about mechanically unique cards being limited-released, and, if that is the case, WHY ISN'T THE RESERVED LIST BANNED IN ALL FORMATS?
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If it's "it ruins my immersion" then why are other, real-world, things allowed? (like Arabian Nights, Shakespeare quotes, or Frankenstein's Monster)
I'm inclined to believe that people are upset about mechanically unique cards being limited-released, and, if that is the case, WHY ISN'T THE RESERVED LIST BANNED IN ALL FORMATS?
that’s another thing a realized thanks to a reddit user the reserve list and TWD secret lair has the exact same cons but difference is we don’t want reserve list cards banned but TWD we do part of it is crossover in blackborder that isn't the Godzilla treatment is not allowed to us
But really it was still so wrong to repeat that same stupid mistake they made with Nalathni dragon
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If it's "it ruins my immersion" then why are other, real-world, things allowed? (like Arabian Nights, Shakespeare quotes, or Frankenstein's Monster)
I'm inclined to believe that people are upset about mechanically unique cards being limited-released, and, if that is the case, WHY ISN'T THE RESERVED LIST BANNED IN ALL FORMATS?
1: It is ok for real life and literature references on cards "a monster created out of corpses" or literature quotes. Innistrad is full of references. Literature quotes is in the same level of pun quotes: it doesn't add to the flavor of the cards but at least gives some related flavor even if it isn't relevant. "monkey wants banana..". But all in all it is all canon to the universe of the game (not the real life literature quotes, those are kinda of a page note on a book). People complaining about immersion has the right to it because until now all magic collections that are legal in tournament play had a in gameuniverse canon or something that could happen. In Ikoria they did a off brand but they didn't made Godzilla verse a real thing in mtg as all the godzillas were cosmetics for other cards (even if the "real" card did not existed) and that is ok. I think the main issue with twd is that flatout no alternative name, they just exist now as well with firearms, nukes and non fantasy stuff (not a big thing for me but for some it is, remember that there is almost no firearms in mtg, and the ones that exist has some magical or exotic modifications).
2 Mechanical unique cards that will be released and sold during a single day in a sistem that had its issues in the past and said cards can probably never be released ever again, this is almost reserved list status to new products being released (soo if you don't like the reserved list why would you like this?). They are selling this in almost a ultimatum status "buy it now because you wont get another chance" and no you don't have 2 weeks to test and decide if the cards are good or if you like them soo much as to build new decks, no, you have 7 days from anouncement and by the time the last card is spoiled you will have 1 day to think if you want to buy it or not... At least with duals and reserverd list card you have the luxury, and probably all the copies in the market to think if you really want them.. Lets hope all the investors buying this secret lair makes wotc print them more than they have printed the dual lands.
Personally, I think it sets a pretty bad precedence with making a limited product have exclusive cards. On the other hand i feel this may have been a comic con promo earlier in the making and with the whole COVID situation repurposed into a secret lair. I'm hoping for the latter and not the former.
Sheldon and the RC committe Are listening to us, taking notes and weighing options Basicly they are discussing TWD cards
and they will have something to say and will definatly be before the secret lair drops
in other words This looks like a sign TWD cards will probably be considered silver bordered In commander format
Honestly? Good.
"Oh you want this new commander that has a playstyle you like? Well why didn't you buy it in this limited window for this price? Not in your country? OOooh don't worry, you can just buy it for this marked up price from someone on ebay. Thats fine right?"
Disgusting.
your clearing not seeing what they are talking about
the point is the RC of commander are looking into it for us
man did this secret lair left a taste so sour to you it like you didn't hear what they said at all
and plus if you read my comments in this thread i hate these and they outright lied to us about the promise they made back when Nalathni Dragon appeared which was "promise to never print functionally unique promos" they broke they promise and this really ticked me off
They broke that promise, yet see fit to make the reserve list as unbreakable as possible. Why does WotC bother promising anything at all?
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I'm inclined to believe that people are upset about mechanically unique cards being limited-released, and, if that is the case, WHY ISN'T THE RESERVED LIST BANNED IN ALL FORMATS?
That's a battle we can't win. Big sellers' interest trumps the average player' opinion. But at least we can try to stop new "reserved lists" from happening
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Part of me thinks that WOTC did this to secretly (!) undermine the integrity of the commander council.
If they go ahead and ban these cards from commander, WOTC can turn around and say, "we made these strictly for commander, now they're banned? Sorry, you don't have jurisdiction over the format anymore. Give it up."
I think that's what they're trying to do here.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If it's "it ruins my immersion" then why are other, real-world, things allowed? (like Arabian Nights, Shakespeare quotes, or Frankenstein's Monster)
I'm inclined to believe that people are upset about mechanically unique cards being limited-released, and, if that is the case, WHY ISN'T THE RESERVED LIST BANNED IN ALL FORMATS?
I don't think you can compare stuff like Frankenstein's Monster to this. Yes, they shouldn't have made that card either. But the game was still new and they were still trying things out. Besides, Frankenstein (as well as Godzilla, I'd argue) are established, iconic elements of popular culture. I still don't like the Godzilla cards, but it's a hell of a lot better than just some TV trendy show that has well since peaked in popularity.
As for the reserve list, I can see your point. But the reserve list seems like a painful compromise they came to. They should know better than to do anything like that again.
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If it's "it ruins my immersion" then why are other, real-world, things allowed? (like Arabian Nights, Shakespeare quotes, or Frankenstein's Monster)
I'm inclined to believe that people are upset about mechanically unique cards being limited-released, and, if that is the case, WHY ISN'T THE RESERVED LIST BANNED IN ALL FORMATS?
They have completely moved away from real-world quotes on cards because of this, and MaRo has gone on record saying they wouldn't make a setting like Rabiah anymore because it refers to real world locations...so yeah, making this cards outside of silver-bordered sets feels dumb, I'm certainly not a fan myself but as long as they are wise enough to keep these BS cards designed as Commander/casual only I couldn't care less about them as I do with all the SL products.
....man, this is the saddest thing I have ever seen especially the ending
brian (the professor) is just beyond livid like even more livid than the Vip boosters in Double masters in this and pretty much has everything perfectly of why this secret lair is just so beyond wrong
I definitely applaud the video on the issue of these
....man this is the saddest thing i have ever seen especially the ending
brian (the professor) is just beyond livid like even more livid than the Vip boosters in Double masters in this and pretty much has everything perfectly of why this secret lair is just so beyond wrong
i actually had no idea about his videos until the double masters one.
this video is top notch. i agree with everything he says, from start to finish. every single ounce of it.
So I've given it a couple of days of thought, and my conclusion is twofold:
There are three-and-a-half major arguments for banning these in EDH.
None of them hold up.
1. "These are a cash grab/intentionally limited, so we should ban them on principle."
The beauty of EDH is that unlike other formats, there isn't a defining best strategy for the overwhelming majority of environments. cEDH is a very small sliver of the community, and even there, there are still a multitude of top-tier deck builds and strategies (at least since the banning of Flash, which is tangentially relevant but not enough so for me to delve in-depth.) You don't need all the most expensive cards to play in an environment--and even if your playgroup is higher power, proxies or simple communication are always options. Not every product is for everyone.
To wit, there already is an artificial barrier to entry imposed on some cards with the RL. Do we say that these should be banned too? Sheldon stated as late as December of last year that scarcity/price is no longer an argument they use for banning a card. Thereby, this argument comes off as innately selfish, the inverse of the "I got mine so eff the rest" saw. To quote the official philosophy page:
The primary focus of the list is on cards which are problematic because of their extreme consistency, ubiquity, and/or ability to restrict others’ opportunities.
2. "TWD doesn't belong in Magic, so we should ban it on principle."
Ever since 1999, we have had an entire set pulled straight from another property: Portal: 3 Kingdoms. We have another one coming next year. Saying what aesthetically is "part of the game" and what isn't is entirely subjective and capricious: to use it as reasoning for a ban is dangerous. I have already seen reports of people excited to get in/back into the game with TWD as an impetus. Do we gatekeep them from using the cards that sparked their interest in one of the largest formats just because? I hope not.
(As an aside, I started following the game back in OG Ravnica. The number of things I've seen described as "not belonging" in Magic by now is too long to count.)
3. "The RC should be the voice of the community, and the majority has spoken for a bam."
The online community is not everyone that plays EDH. This is axiomatically true: to pretend otherwise is disingenuous. Similarly, it's within human nature to seek out things to criticize than to praise, especially on the Internet where opinions get amplified and reflected.
I also have the real fear that with the sanctioning of EDH as a format, the RC is no longer truly independent from WotC; and doing something to harm Hasbro's bottom line (like a ban) may cause the dissolution of the RC altogether.
3.5. "I don't like TWD."
...then that's a you problem. Please reread my point #2.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To anyone who read this, thanks for sticking with me, and going forward I hope you'll at least examine this release a bit more critically. I don't expect to change minds, though: this is a polarizing issue. But if I haven't, at least listen to my conclusion.
Banning these cards in EDH will do nothing but hurt the community. If you don't support Wizards' move of releasing this product, do not order it from them; do not buy the cards on the secondary market; and continue to respectfully voice criticism while understanding this is a complex problem.
We wanted to create top down designs that specifically captured the characters, so that fans of the show could see characters they know optimally expressed as Magic cards.
Are you........
he's just made the black border decision even worse now
If this was the goal just do the Godzilla skin treatment on upcoming cards or silver border them
So I've given it a couple of days of thought, and my conclusion is twofold:
There are three-and-a-half major arguments for banning these in EDH.
None of them hold up.
2. "TWD doesn't belong in Magic, so we should ban it on principle."
Ever since 1999, we have had an entire set pulled straight from another property: Portal: 3 Kingdoms. We have another one coming next year. Saying what aesthetically is "part of the game" and what isn't is entirely subjective and capricious: to use it as reasoning for a ban is dangerous. I have already seen reports of people excited to get in/back into the game with TWD as an impetus. Do we gatekeep them from using the cards that sparked their interest in one of the largest formats just because? I hope not.
(As an aside, I started following the game back in OG Ravnica. The number of things I've seen described as "not belonging" in Magic by now is too long to count.)
Argument 2 is the only one you need, I don't think you represented it correctly.
First, I don't think your two examples of a precedent are very good. Portal: Three Kingdoms came out 20 years ago, and in case anyone forgot, wasn't tournament-legal for quite a while. It was a weird, ceremonial set that was never designed to be part of the Magic universe, and I wasn't particularly a fan of their decision to retroactively make it "real". But again, that wasn't their original intent, and it was 20 years ago, and it was based on an interesting and significant period in history. The Walking Dead is just a washed-up intellectual property with very little cultural weight.
You also cite the D&D set that's coming out. I gotta say, I'm not a fan of that either. But Magic and D&D have a long history together, and if we have to have a crossover Magic set, D&D is about the only thing approaching acceptable. Again, I don't love it, but I hardly think opens up the door for Shrek and Iron Man Magic cards.
Also, I'm not sure what your idea of something "not belonging" in Magic is. Do you mean stuff like Izzet sciencey cards or Kaladesh technology? Characters with no vowels in their name? Nothing I can think of comes close to just straight-up making cards for TV show characters. That's just on a completely different axis than anything else you could complain about not being Magicky enough.
....man, this is the saddest thing I have ever seen especially the ending
brian (the professor) is just beyond livid like even more livid than the Vip boosters in Double masters in this and pretty much has everything perfectly of why this secret lair is just so beyond wrong
I definitely applaud the video on the issue of these
I feel like he went over the fact that this is hurting Magic in the long run too quickly. As someone else earlier in the thread has said, this is eroding the brand. This isn't about whether you like or not like the walking dead, my little pony or dungeons and dragons. The fact is that Magic's essence is becoming diluted more and more. It started out with silver border cards (talking about MLP here, not the un-sets), now we get mechanically unique black border cards and soon we will have an entire set. This isn't a slippery slope, this is an already fully designed descending elevator. We know what Magic's future plans are.
Unless this is going to become massively unpopular, which I doubt, then this will hurt the brand to a point of no return. Magic won't be Magic anymore and it will just fade away in the people's vision. This might end up as a great case study how short term profit ends up with the cannibalization and eventual death of an entire brand.
Now, people have been claiming "Magic will die!" ever since... it's existence I suppose. But the thing is, Magic will die. There is no around it. One day the brand will just disappear from the shelves, either with a bang or with a whimper. The question isn't "if" but "when" and "why". And I might be wrong, hopefully I am, but the recent developments in the past years seem like they are leading to the next stage of the brand's life cycle.
Of course, these secret lairs, the franchise crossovers, the reckless management of standard and what have you aren't going to be the direct causes of the downfall of Magic. But if I am right, they will be a symptom of the underlying illness. And if it really comes to all of it, then people in the future with their power of hindsight will point to all these things and say "See, here were the signs. It was inevitable.".
I was fine with MLP showing up as a fun random who cares and understood they only came about from Hasbro owning them, at the very least proceeds went to charity, and they are not usually playable. Me liking it probably had something to do with it too.
I was fine with Godzilla stuff popping up as they were just fancy alternate versions of real cards, and fit the theme of the set.
i would really like to see sales figures from this sl and mlp cards for comparison.
they could easily assure everyone that those cards can be reprinted by putting normal version in addition in this sl or release second version of this sl not tied to external ip. but they didn't.
Part of me almost wishes the game would die as a result of making these cards, because if it doesn't it merely gives them more leeway to make even worse decisions.
The whole thing is depressing and confusing. It doesn't make sense apart from a cash grab point of view. These cards are mechanically unique and furthermore will not be printed again (barring a, God help us, TWD set). We haven't been able to determine their power level yet in terms of how necessary to a game-winning combo they are, but they have the potential to become key pieces. It's disgusting that Hasbro is just staring at us manically, shoving these in our face, and saying "Buy it. Or else."
These should never have been legal in the first place. They are monetizing legality and that sets a very dangerous precedent - there's nothing to stop them from printing a 1 generic mana card that says "When you cast this card, you win the game." and then charging whatever they want for it, all the while shamelessly urging people to buy with arbitrary purchasing times.
Every card is available for a limited time and in a limited quantity. This one is simply not sold in stores and is made in as large a quantitiy as desired unlike From the Vault or Commander Arsenal.
You --------------------------------------------------------------------------- the point of why this is controversial.
It's actually 2 cards total that really caused problems out of hundreds. True Name Nemesis did in legacy and Nexus of Fate did in standard. They obviously took a hint from Nexus and never released another exclusive BaB promo that caused problems.
If they took the hint, wouldn't we not have had a similar situation with this exact product?
People are blowing this way out of proportion and this is apparently 5 different unique cards and tokens for $50.
Didn't realize you were batting for WotC this hard. How much they paying you?
Its price per card isn't necessarily going to be any worse than lots of other exclusive product cards.
Bruh really? You for real? You going to clickity clack on your keyboard and tell me if some new exclusive card was like Uro or Oko or Lurrus (pre-nerf) levels in power but its from a Secret Lair, its just fine? Right?
They're also all legendary so far and probably not going to be played a ton other than as a commander.
So what your saying is they can print whatever dumb stuff for commander, because its commander, and nobody should really care about the format? And if causes harm to other formats, thats just collateral damage? Right?
These aren't for me, I think their dumb BUT...........
I have a feeling this will be their best selling Secret Lair Drop. Time will tell.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
So I've given it a couple of days of thought, and my conclusion is twofold:
There are three-and-a-half major arguments for banning these in EDH.
None of them hold up.
1. "These are a cash grab/intentionally limited, so we should ban them on principle."
2. "TWD doesn't belong in Magic, so we should ban it on principle."
3. "The RC should be the voice of the community, and the majority has spoken for a bam."
3.5. "I don't like TWD."
So I read your post, and my conclusion is twofold:
You ignored several of the major arguments while misrepresenting or oversimplifying the ones you did list.
Of course they won't hold up when selecting the weakest arguments and not removing bias.
Just off the top of my head, here are some of the points you ignored:
- Broken promise - WOTC went into this knowing exactly what kind of backlash they got the last time they did a mechanically unique promo only available to limited people for a limited time and not in an actual expansion. They also knowingly broke their promise, made after that incident, to not do this again. We should not encourage this behavior.
- Limited global accessibility - Only available to players of certain nationalities. Don't live in the right country? No cards for you. Commander is a world-wide format, but now, not all cards are.
- Dangerous precedent - Remember True-Name Nemesis? Nexus of Fate? What happens when they print a staple this way, but again, only people who were in the right country at the right time with the extra spending cash could get it because it wasn't in a product in stores?
- Speaking of stores - Selling mechanically unique cards from their website that cuts out the LGS distribution model, without functionally equivalent versions elsewhere. Previous Secret Lairs offered alternate art on cards already in the LGS. This does not.
- There are several other arguments (probably a good dozen floating around), but I feel these are some of the stronger ones that you ignored. This list is by no means exhaustive.
yep I did realize that actually
as a matter of fact it just accured to me there might be a reason walking dead was chosen in the first place which is still a bad choice what some of you may not know is...hasbro...owns...the walking dead hasbro bought entertainment one for 4 billion Last year (then again amc is the one airing new episodes)
I'm inclined to believe that people are upset about mechanically unique cards being limited-released, and, if that is the case, WHY ISN'T THE RESERVED LIST BANNED IN ALL FORMATS?
that’s another thing a realized thanks to a reddit user the reserve list and TWD secret lair has the exact same cons but difference is we don’t want reserve list cards banned but TWD we do part of it is crossover in blackborder that isn't the Godzilla treatment is not allowed to us
But really it was still so wrong to repeat that same stupid mistake they made with Nalathni dragon
1: It is ok for real life and literature references on cards "a monster created out of corpses" or literature quotes. Innistrad is full of references. Literature quotes is in the same level of pun quotes: it doesn't add to the flavor of the cards but at least gives some related flavor even if it isn't relevant. "monkey wants banana..". But all in all it is all canon to the universe of the game (not the real life literature quotes, those are kinda of a page note on a book). People complaining about immersion has the right to it because until now all magic collections that are legal in tournament play had a in gameuniverse canon or something that could happen. In Ikoria they did a off brand but they didn't made Godzilla verse a real thing in mtg as all the godzillas were cosmetics for other cards (even if the "real" card did not existed) and that is ok. I think the main issue with twd is that flatout no alternative name, they just exist now as well with firearms, nukes and non fantasy stuff (not a big thing for me but for some it is, remember that there is almost no firearms in mtg, and the ones that exist has some magical or exotic modifications).
2 Mechanical unique cards that will be released and sold during a single day in a sistem that had its issues in the past and said cards can probably never be released ever again, this is almost reserved list status to new products being released (soo if you don't like the reserved list why would you like this?). They are selling this in almost a ultimatum status "buy it now because you wont get another chance" and no you don't have 2 weeks to test and decide if the cards are good or if you like them soo much as to build new decks, no, you have 7 days from anouncement and by the time the last card is spoiled you will have 1 day to think if you want to buy it or not... At least with duals and reserverd list card you have the luxury, and probably all the copies in the market to think if you really want them.. Lets hope all the investors buying this secret lair makes wotc print them more than they have printed the dual lands.
They broke that promise, yet see fit to make the reserve list as unbreakable as possible. Why does WotC bother promising anything at all?
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
That's a battle we can't win. Big sellers' interest trumps the average player' opinion. But at least we can try to stop new "reserved lists" from happening
If they go ahead and ban these cards from commander, WOTC can turn around and say, "we made these strictly for commander, now they're banned? Sorry, you don't have jurisdiction over the format anymore. Give it up."
I think that's what they're trying to do here.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I don't think you can compare stuff like Frankenstein's Monster to this. Yes, they shouldn't have made that card either. But the game was still new and they were still trying things out. Besides, Frankenstein (as well as Godzilla, I'd argue) are established, iconic elements of popular culture. I still don't like the Godzilla cards, but it's a hell of a lot better than just some TV trendy show that has well since peaked in popularity.
As for the reserve list, I can see your point. But the reserve list seems like a painful compromise they came to. They should know better than to do anything like that again.
They have completely moved away from real-world quotes on cards because of this, and MaRo has gone on record saying they wouldn't make a setting like Rabiah anymore because it refers to real world locations...so yeah, making this cards outside of silver-bordered sets feels dumb, I'm certainly not a fan myself but as long as they are wise enough to keep these BS cards designed as Commander/casual only I couldn't care less about them as I do with all the SL products.
brian (the professor) is just beyond livid like even more livid than the Vip boosters in Double masters in this and pretty much has everything perfectly of why this secret lair is just so beyond wrong
I definitely applaud the video on the issue of these
i actually had no idea about his videos until the double masters one.
this video is top notch. i agree with everything he says, from start to finish. every single ounce of it.
- There are three-and-a-half major arguments for banning these in EDH.
- None of them hold up.
1. "These are a cash grab/intentionally limited, so we should ban them on principle."The beauty of EDH is that unlike other formats, there isn't a defining best strategy for the overwhelming majority of environments. cEDH is a very small sliver of the community, and even there, there are still a multitude of top-tier deck builds and strategies (at least since the banning of Flash, which is tangentially relevant but not enough so for me to delve in-depth.) You don't need all the most expensive cards to play in an environment--and even if your playgroup is higher power, proxies or simple communication are always options. Not every product is for everyone.
To wit, there already is an artificial barrier to entry imposed on some cards with the RL. Do we say that these should be banned too? Sheldon stated as late as December of last year that scarcity/price is no longer an argument they use for banning a card. Thereby, this argument comes off as innately selfish, the inverse of the "I got mine so eff the rest" saw. To quote the official philosophy page:
2. "TWD doesn't belong in Magic, so we should ban it on principle."
Ever since 1999, we have had an entire set pulled straight from another property: Portal: 3 Kingdoms. We have another one coming next year. Saying what aesthetically is "part of the game" and what isn't is entirely subjective and capricious: to use it as reasoning for a ban is dangerous. I have already seen reports of people excited to get in/back into the game with TWD as an impetus. Do we gatekeep them from using the cards that sparked their interest in one of the largest formats just because? I hope not.
(As an aside, I started following the game back in OG Ravnica. The number of things I've seen described as "not belonging" in Magic by now is too long to count.)
3. "The RC should be the voice of the community, and the majority has spoken for a bam."
The online community is not everyone that plays EDH. This is axiomatically true: to pretend otherwise is disingenuous. Similarly, it's within human nature to seek out things to criticize than to praise, especially on the Internet where opinions get amplified and reflected.
I also have the real fear that with the sanctioning of EDH as a format, the RC is no longer truly independent from WotC; and doing something to harm Hasbro's bottom line (like a ban) may cause the dissolution of the RC altogether.
3.5. "I don't like TWD."
...then that's a you problem. Please reread my point #2.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To anyone who read this, thanks for sticking with me, and going forward I hope you'll at least examine this release a bit more critically. I don't expect to change minds, though: this is a polarizing issue. But if I haven't, at least listen to my conclusion.
Banning these cards in EDH will do nothing but hurt the community. If you don't support Wizards' move of releasing this product, do not order it from them; do not buy the cards on the secondary market; and continue to respectfully voice criticism while understanding this is a complex problem.
That's all.
- (W/U)(W/U) Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
- (W/B)(W/B) Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
- (R/G)(R/G) Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
- (B/G)(G/U) Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe BuildThe Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Are you........
he's just made the black border decision even worse now
If this was the goal just do the Godzilla skin treatment on upcoming cards or silver border them
Argument 2 is the only one you need, I don't think you represented it correctly.
First, I don't think your two examples of a precedent are very good. Portal: Three Kingdoms came out 20 years ago, and in case anyone forgot, wasn't tournament-legal for quite a while. It was a weird, ceremonial set that was never designed to be part of the Magic universe, and I wasn't particularly a fan of their decision to retroactively make it "real". But again, that wasn't their original intent, and it was 20 years ago, and it was based on an interesting and significant period in history. The Walking Dead is just a washed-up intellectual property with very little cultural weight.
You also cite the D&D set that's coming out. I gotta say, I'm not a fan of that either. But Magic and D&D have a long history together, and if we have to have a crossover Magic set, D&D is about the only thing approaching acceptable. Again, I don't love it, but I hardly think opens up the door for Shrek and Iron Man Magic cards.
Also, I'm not sure what your idea of something "not belonging" in Magic is. Do you mean stuff like Izzet sciencey cards or Kaladesh technology? Characters with no vowels in their name? Nothing I can think of comes close to just straight-up making cards for TV show characters. That's just on a completely different axis than anything else you could complain about not being Magicky enough.
I feel like he went over the fact that this is hurting Magic in the long run too quickly. As someone else earlier in the thread has said, this is eroding the brand. This isn't about whether you like or not like the walking dead, my little pony or dungeons and dragons. The fact is that Magic's essence is becoming diluted more and more. It started out with silver border cards (talking about MLP here, not the un-sets), now we get mechanically unique black border cards and soon we will have an entire set. This isn't a slippery slope, this is an already fully designed descending elevator. We know what Magic's future plans are.
Unless this is going to become massively unpopular, which I doubt, then this will hurt the brand to a point of no return. Magic won't be Magic anymore and it will just fade away in the people's vision. This might end up as a great case study how short term profit ends up with the cannibalization and eventual death of an entire brand.
Now, people have been claiming "Magic will die!" ever since... it's existence I suppose. But the thing is, Magic will die. There is no around it. One day the brand will just disappear from the shelves, either with a bang or with a whimper. The question isn't "if" but "when" and "why". And I might be wrong, hopefully I am, but the recent developments in the past years seem like they are leading to the next stage of the brand's life cycle.
Of course, these secret lairs, the franchise crossovers, the reckless management of standard and what have you aren't going to be the direct causes of the downfall of Magic. But if I am right, they will be a symptom of the underlying illness. And if it really comes to all of it, then people in the future with their power of hindsight will point to all these things and say "See, here were the signs. It was inevitable.".
they could easily assure everyone that those cards can be reprinted by putting normal version in addition in this sl or release second version of this sl not tied to external ip. but they didn't.
The whole thing is depressing and confusing. It doesn't make sense apart from a cash grab point of view. These cards are mechanically unique and furthermore will not be printed again (barring a, God help us, TWD set). We haven't been able to determine their power level yet in terms of how necessary to a game-winning combo they are, but they have the potential to become key pieces. It's disgusting that Hasbro is just staring at us manically, shoving these in our face, and saying "Buy it. Or else."
These should never have been legal in the first place. They are monetizing legality and that sets a very dangerous precedent - there's nothing to stop them from printing a 1 generic mana card that says "When you cast this card, you win the game." and then charging whatever they want for it, all the while shamelessly urging people to buy with arbitrary purchasing times.
If they took the hint, wouldn't we not have had a similar situation with this exact product?
Didn't realize you were batting for WotC this hard. How much they paying you?
Bruh really? You for real? You going to clickity clack on your keyboard and tell me if some new exclusive card was like Uro or Oko or Lurrus (pre-nerf) levels in power but its from a Secret Lair, its just fine? Right?
So what your saying is they can print whatever dumb stuff for commander, because its commander, and nobody should really care about the format? And if causes harm to other formats, thats just collateral damage? Right?
I have a feeling this will be their best selling Secret Lair Drop. Time will tell.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
- You ignored several of the major arguments while misrepresenting or oversimplifying the ones you did list.
- Of course they won't hold up when selecting the weakest arguments and not removing bias.
Just off the top of my head, here are some of the points you ignored:- Broken promise - WOTC went into this knowing exactly what kind of backlash they got the last time they did a mechanically unique promo only available to limited people for a limited time and not in an actual expansion. They also knowingly broke their promise, made after that incident, to not do this again. We should not encourage this behavior.
- Limited global accessibility - Only available to players of certain nationalities. Don't live in the right country? No cards for you. Commander is a world-wide format, but now, not all cards are.
- Dangerous precedent - Remember True-Name Nemesis? Nexus of Fate? What happens when they print a staple this way, but again, only people who were in the right country at the right time with the extra spending cash could get it because it wasn't in a product in stores?
- Speaking of stores - Selling mechanically unique cards from their website that cuts out the LGS distribution model, without functionally equivalent versions elsewhere. Previous Secret Lairs offered alternate art on cards already in the LGS. This does not.
- There are several other arguments (probably a good dozen floating around), but I feel these are some of the stronger ones that you ignored. This list is by no means exhaustive.
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If what I'm reading is right maro was probably not confident in this TWD secret lair execution and might be saying ”told you” to quite a bit of people
On one question occurred to me nobody is asking
It will be sold but here's the real question
Will it be TWD fans who don’t play magic or the ones who play it or neither
Possibly. But that response is mostly just a standard 'we are listening to criticism' response. Which, like, of course they're going to say that.
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