Omg did anybody even notice the holo symbol on the bottom of the cards
It's a triangle instead of a oval
Folks consider those as silver border
yeah i noticed that. i wonder if that's a special thing for these or if that's going to be a change going forward. if its just for these types of secret lairs then we can easily say **** off and ban anything with that type of holofoil. problem solved.
though i can definitely see them disbanding the rules committee for edh over anything against this product. i can see tons more of these on the horizon and them doing exactly what we've been so vocally asking them not to do. that's just been their M.O. for the past 5 years at the very least. honestly, there is a part of me that sees maro stepping down at some point in the near future too. it feels like there's a tremendous amount of feedback being thrown at him and it doesn't even matter, some of the stuff he's posted the past few days makes him sound very... frustrated.
i really do think we're seeing the bubble bursting right in this very moment.
Omg did anybody even notice the holo symbol on the bottom of the cards
It's a triangle instead of a oval
Folks consider those as silver border
yeah i noticed that. i wonder if that's a special thing for these or if that's going to be a change going forward. if its just for these types of secret lairs then we can easily say **** off and ban anything with that type of holofoil. problem solved.
though i can definitely see them disbanding the rules committee for edh over anything against this product. i can see tons more of these on the horizon and them doing exactly what we've been so vocally asking them not to do. that's just been their M.O. for the past 5 years at the very least. honestly, there is a part of me that sees maro stepping down at some point in the near future too. it feels like there's a tremendous amount of feedback being thrown at him and it doesn't even matter, some of the stuff he's posted the past few days makes him sound very... frustrated.
i really do think we're seeing the bubble bursting right in this very moment.
though i can definitely see them disbanding the rules committee for edh
Yup that will happen someday, there will be 2 "commander" formats, the Wizard one with TWD bull*****,Un-sets and every planeswalker can be your commander and EDH
These cards are mechanically unique and come in a black border, which makes them perfectly legal in EDH (this is especially relevant because they're all legendary creatures). How would you like your opponent playing with a My Little Pony card as their legal, completely legitimate commander?
I’ve gotten a number of design oriented questions over the last few days about The Walking Dead cards that just got answered on the stream, but as I know not everyone was able to see the stream, I thought I’d repeat the answers here (adding in a little of my perspective):
Why aren’t these cards silver bordered?
Silver border means two things. 1) It’s non-tournament legal, and 2) It doesn’t do things we can do in black border (at least at the time of us printing the cards – Magic evolves over time, so silver bordered things can later get promoted into black border). We wanted these cards to be top-down designs of The Walking Dead characters that functioned like more normal black-bordered cards. In addition, there’s one other issue (one that really bothers me to be honest). Silver-bordered cards are treated by some Magic players as being less than black bordered cards and thus have a stigma to them. Some players refuse to play with players that have silver-bordered cards in their deck. We didn’t want players thinking these cards were something they couldn’t play with.
Why don’t these cards use the Godzilla “alternate skin” technology?
They kind of do, but not in the way we did them in Ikoria. That exact execution wasn’t a good fit for the product. Unlike the Godzilla cards that were distributed inside of booster packs along with the rest of Ikoria, The Walking Dead cards are sold by themselves. That meant we wanted them to maximize their appeal as a box set. Putting extra names on them was aesthetically unattractive. That said, we did build in a way to do backwards version of the Godzilla skins. If needed, we can print a Magic IP version of these cards with a Magic name and creative concept/art. We wanted to make sure that these cards were reprintable if needed.
Won’t that mean that players who own The Walking Dead cards can now play both versions in their deck?
No, it does not. The cards, in Oracle, would identify that they represent the same card and would be treated by deck building rules as if they were the same. Think of them as functioning identically to the Godzilla skins.
Are these characters now canon in Magic story?
No, they are not. The frames and triangle watermark specifically denote that they are not canon to the Magic universe. I will note that there are other cards with black borders (from the alternate reality of Planeshift) that are also not canon.
I don't understand why people are so angry about some cards for a non-essential luxury product.
If you want them just buy them.
Right now, the biggest thing I'm angry about is that availability simply isn't widespread. There are a large number of places in the world where this either won't be shipped or where the shipping easily doubles the price... which is kind of a problem for a product that is legal in any format.
While functional reprints can be created in the future (unlike RL cards), the fact is that 1) Wizards will probably never reprint these exact cards again (doing so would likely require another payment to AMC and another contract) and 2) those functional reprints and these cards will not be mutually exclusive. Players in America will have a much better chance of having both Negan as their commander AND "Not-Negan" in their 99 to double the treasures provided while other players in other regions are far more likely to be stuck with just Not-Negan unless they pay out the nose... because they live in the wrong country.
Imagine if a card that wizards could never reprint was only released in Japan and was only printed in Japanese and was legal in one or more formats. Not a good feeling or a good look.
I don't understand why people are so angry about some cards for a non-essential luxury product.
If you want them just buy them.
I think you may have missed the first 5 pages of this thread, the various discussions and arguments going on within the realms of Reddit AND Twitter, etc - as if you had read those, you would have seen a number of reasons that people dislike this, some thematic, many mechanical/with regard to handling releasing product to game, some regarding availability issues, etc.
These cards are mechanically unique and come in a black border, which makes them perfectly legal in EDH (this is especially relevant because they're all legendary creatures). How would you like your opponent playing with a My Little Pony card as their legal, completely legitimate commander?
That would be fine to me.
In fact I don't see how that is a problem for a casual format.
I know the cEDH hijack is real but jeez. Just let someone use a card if they want to.
I don't understand why people are so angry about some cards for a non-essential luxury product.
If you want them just buy them.
Right now, the biggest thing I'm angry about is that availability simply isn't widespread. There are a large number of places in the world where this either won't be shipped or where the shipping easily doubles the price... which is kind of a problem for a product that is legal in any format.
While functional reprints can be created in the future (unlike RL cards), the fact is that 1) Wizards will probably never reprint these exact cards again (doing so would likely require another payment to AMC and another contract) and 2) those functional reprints and these cards will not be mutually exclusive. Players in America will have a much better chance of having both Negan as their commander AND "Not-Negan" in their 99 to double the treasures provided while other players in other regions are far more likely to be stuck with just Not-Negan unless they pay out the nose... because they live in the wrong country.
Imagine if a card that wizards could never reprint was only released in Japan and was only printed in Japanese and was legal in one or more formats. Not a good feeling or a good look.
MaRo has already confirmed that if they did functional reprints it would work like the Godzilla promos and you wouldn't be able to play both. See just above in this thread.
I don't understand why people are so angry about some cards for a non-essential luxury product.
If you want them just buy them.
Right now, the biggest thing I'm angry about is that availability simply isn't widespread. There are a large number of places in the world where this either won't be shipped or where the shipping easily doubles the price... which is kind of a problem for a product that is legal in any format.
While functional reprints can be created in the future (unlike RL cards), the fact is that 1) Wizards will probably never reprint these exact cards again (doing so would likely require another payment to AMC and another contract) and 2) those functional reprints and these cards will not be mutually exclusive. Players in America will have a much better chance of having both Negan as their commander AND "Not-Negan" in their 99 to double the treasures provided while other players in other regions are far more likely to be stuck with just Not-Negan unless they pay out the nose... because they live in the wrong country.
Imagine if a card that wizards could never reprint was only released in Japan and was only printed in Japanese and was legal in one or more formats. Not a good feeling or a good look.
MaRo has already confirmed that if they did functional reprints it would work like the Godzilla promos and you wouldn't be able to play both. See just above in this thread.
Missed that part of the most recent post. Thanks.
Am considerably less angry now. They're just unlabeled re-skins of cards to be reprinted at an unlisted point... kind of like Zilortha. I can probably live with that.
I kinda hope Zilortha is Godzilla. Like he went there and that's what the Ikorians call him. It's implied Vivien does call on him to fight Obosh in the trailer.
The Walking Dead cards are sold by themselves. (1)
That meant we wanted them to maximize their appeal as a box set. (2)
Putting extra names on them was aesthetically unattractive. (3)
That said, we did build in a way to do backwards version of the Godzilla skins. (4)
If needed, we can print a Magic IP version of these cards with a Magic name and creative concept/art. (5)
We wanted to make sure that these cards were reprintable if needed. (6)
statement 3 contradicts statements 4, 5, and 6.
If the goal is to be reprintable if needed with the Magic IP with a Magic name and art, and the technology with the Godzilla cards exists, citing that they are "unaesthetically attractive" as why they don't use the technology, that means: They created more work for themselves in the future as they will have to errata and reprint TWD cards with proper formatting using the Godzilla technology to retrofit it.
One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned enough is that WotC says that down the road these cards will be reprinted, just not with the crossover art and name. That only makes these even worse when you realize eventually these will get a reprint that could be very common. Problem is here of course that the "walker" stuff is something we'll only see in other premium products, like Masters. Knowing that they will be reprinted eventually, thankfully without TWD attached to it, means there's even LESS of a reason to buy this compared to other Secret Lairs.
These cards are mechanically unique and come in a black border, which makes them perfectly legal in EDH (this is especially relevant because they're all legendary creatures). How would you like your opponent playing with a My Little Pony card as their legal, completely legitimate commander?
Let's take this a little further, if Rarity was blackbordered this could easily be considered strong in a format like Legacy and Vintage with rares and mythics. If they intended it for actual play you could see this having WU cost and be a 3/3 with those same abilities.
Hell, take a look at the Heroes of the Realms cards. Most of those would be between good to straight amazing in Commander, a few potentially in Eternal formats. Diabolical Salvation would be playable in Standard, potentially Modern. Inerva, Master of Insights could be played in any format it would be allowed in. The Legend of Arena would be insane in near every format. Even Chandra, Gremlin Wrangler could have easily been in War of the Spark and playable.
They've shown that they are unable to balance things like these well.
Feels weird quoting Rudy, but based on this Strixhaven isn't having the Harry Potter crossover anymore due to JKR running her mouth.
I usually hate Alpha Investments, and that start to the video by hand waving the legitimate frustration of this product is one of those reasons, but hearing what he said is really no surprise that we are seeing this. Hearing that they did this solely because they weren't doing so hot for a couple of years is amazing considering that Arena has done well for them and recent Magic sets, and products, have done better as well.
It it is quite jarring though. When you start wanting to do these crossovers and talking to dozens of companies it means you are desperate. Now that Magic is doing well this desperate move during recent successes may just hurt them again like that.
They really need to just make a damn game and not try and make an e-sport.
The Walking Dead cards are sold by themselves. (1)
That meant we wanted them to maximize their appeal as a box set. (2)
Putting extra names on them was aesthetically unattractive. (3)
That said, we did build in a way to do backwards version of the Godzilla skins. (4)
If needed, we can print a Magic IP version of these cards with a Magic name and creative concept/art. (5)
We wanted to make sure that these cards were reprintable if needed. (6)
statement 3 contradicts statements 4, 5, and 6.
If the goal is to be reprintable if needed with the Magic IP with a Magic name and art, and the technology with the Godzilla cards exists, citing that they are "unaesthetically attractive" as why they don't use the technology, that means: They created more work for themselves in the future as they will have to errata and reprint TWD cards with proper formatting using the Godzilla technology to retrofit it.
Even on damage control they can't get it right.
They're not going to errata anything. The triangle simply denotes that in gatherer, there might be another card that's the same, so you can only play one in commander or 4 in normal magic. I highly doubt that these walking dead cards will ever be reprinted as regular magic cards because they're simply not good enough to have a huge demand spike unless someone just buys them out randomly. It's a fail safe if we have a True Name Nemesis situation or maybe a better example would be Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Atraxa, etc. where the commander is so popular that it really spikes.
Now as for My Little Pony, my brother has one as a commander. We've been playing silver border cards since pre Unstable. I think some people have forgotten that commander is supposed to be FUN. You're supposed to sit around the table, eat fat kid food, joke around, and have a good time. This is a format people play tons of alters and I even have plenty of adult oriented ones that might not be so welcome in some LGS. Who cares if you can have an Optimus Prime or Scooby Doo commander? Some people play a flying purple hippo or a gang or beebles.
One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned enough is that WotC says that down the road these cards will be reprinted, just not with the crossover art and name. That only makes these even worse when you realize eventually these will get a reprint that could be very common. Problem is here of course that the "walker" stuff is something we'll only see in other premium products, like Masters. Knowing that they will be reprinted eventually, thankfully without TWD attached to it, means there's even LESS of a reason to buy this compared to other Secret Lairs.
These cards are mechanically unique and come in a black border, which makes them perfectly legal in EDH (this is especially relevant because they're all legendary creatures). How would you like your opponent playing with a My Little Pony card as their legal, completely legitimate commander?
Let's take this a little further, if Rarity was blackbordered this could easily be considered strong in a format like Legacy and Vintage with rares and mythics. If they intended it for actual play you could see this having WU cost and be a 3/3 with those same abilities.
They've shown that they are unable to balance things like these well.
Feels weird quoting Rudy, but based on this Strixhaven isn't having the Harry Potter crossover anymore due to JKR running her mouth.
I usually hate Alpha Investments, and that start to the video by hand waving the legitimate frustration of this product is one of those reasons, but hearing what he said is really no surprise that we are seeing this. Hearing that they did this solely because they weren't doing so hot for a couple of years is amazing considering that Arena has done well for them and recent Magic sets, and products, have done better as well.
It it is quite jarring though. When you start wanting to do these crossovers and talking to dozens of companies it means you are desperate. Now that Magic is doing well this desperate move during recent successes may just hurt them again like that.
They really need to just make a damn game and not try and make an e-sport.
Thank the heavens. JKR is an idiot. I don't care if she made a solid series; she quickly ruined it for me trying to appeal to people just to make herself relevant again. I'm very happy they're skipping out on that crossover.
Thank the heavens. JKR is an idiot. I don't care if she made a solid series; she quickly ruined it for me trying to appeal to people just to make herself relevant again. I'm very happy they're skipping out on that crossover.
While I disagree on Harry Potter being a solid series, although it did introduce reading to a generation of children, it is very strange why she is completely screwing with her own series this much. Usually you'd find a publisher, studio, or director screwing over your own vision, but with Rowling I've never seen someone do this to their own work like this.
How would you like your opponent playing with a My Little Pony card as their legal, completely legitimate commander?
I'd love it if it makes them happy. Let people have their fun. It's 2020.
Guess what: You can already do that! No one is stopping you from playing silver-bordered cards in Commander if you agree with your friends on it. I mean, you can also play with completely custom-made cards in EDH!
But there's a reason for why silver border or Godzilla-style "skins" are (or were, I guess…) a thing. Magic has its own universe. IP crossovers cards with no in-universe equivalent should not be legal by default because it dilutes MtGs own creative vision.
They're not going to errata anything. The triangle simply denotes that in gatherer, there might be another card that's the same, so you can only play one in commander or 4 in normal magic
Has a system used for this exact purpose.
Needlessly creates a new system to do the same thing anyway.
You gotta admit this is horrid decision making. At least if the Godzilla cards had this triangle stamp, that would mean there is still a precedent, but there isn't, as they have an oval stamp and use a bigname-smallname system. It only creates needless confusion because as to paraphrase Mark Rosewater 'muh aesthetics'.
If the goal is to be reprintable if needed with the Magic IP with a Magic name and art, and the technology with the Godzilla cards exists, citing that they are "unaesthetically attractive" as why they don't use the technology, that means: They created more work for themselves in the future as they will have to errata and reprint TWD cards with proper formatting using the Godzilla technology to retrofit it.
Well, I guess the real name of the card would be the TWD name, and the skin card would be the in-universe mtg card, so the latter would have the subtitle. They still might not reprint these cards for years, but it would be wrong to imply that they are on their own Reserved List, right?
It just stinks that they can make cards in this fashion when one of these cards could potentially become a 4x in an eternal format. It takes a long time to damage control by printing more in another product. Forcing this into a limited time window is a horrible idea because of that, and this product is not accessible to much of the world. If you have the extra cash, buying these just to sell out of country might be a "charitable" or "profitable" thing to do, but it comes with potential risks, and WOTC/Hazbro should be bearing that burden and not players.
How would you like your opponent playing with a My Little Pony card as their legal, completely legitimate commander?
I'd love it if it makes them happy. Let people have their fun. It's 2020.
IP crossovers cards with no in-universe equivalent should not be legal by default because it dilutes MtGs own creative vision.
You play the cards you feel fit “MtGs own creative vision” in your eyes, and let others play their Godzillas, Transformers, My Little Ponies, Walkers, cartoon Goblins, and anime waifu Planeswalkers if it makes them happy. Don’t police what others may find fun or interesting. Let them enjoy their cards as you enjoy yours.
Honestly all of the screeching about this product is coming from the very worst parts of the community. The game is dead, WotC is evil, people who like these are wrong, yadda yadda ten-page hyperbole about how this is the worst thing to ever happen.
Have you been outside lately?
This isn't even the worst thing going on in Magic, let alone the world, and you're investing this much emotional energy into it? Literally my entire livelihood is tied to this game and I'm not upset about this, what's wrong with y'all? Let people like things.
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yeah i noticed that. i wonder if that's a special thing for these or if that's going to be a change going forward. if its just for these types of secret lairs then we can easily say **** off and ban anything with that type of holofoil. problem solved.
though i can definitely see them disbanding the rules committee for edh over anything against this product. i can see tons more of these on the horizon and them doing exactly what we've been so vocally asking them not to do. that's just been their M.O. for the past 5 years at the very least. honestly, there is a part of me that sees maro stepping down at some point in the near future too. it feels like there's a tremendous amount of feedback being thrown at him and it doesn't even matter, some of the stuff he's posted the past few days makes him sound very... frustrated.
i really do think we're seeing the bubble bursting right in this very moment.
though i can definitely see them disbanding the rules committee for edh
Yup that will happen someday, there will be 2 "commander" formats, the Wizard one with TWD bull*****,Un-sets and every planeswalker can be your commander and EDH
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Feels weird quoting Rudy, but based on this Strixhaven isn't having the Harry Potter crossover anymore due to JKR running her mouth.
I mean … that's a stance you can take I guess.
If you want them just buy them.
These cards are mechanically unique and come in a black border, which makes them perfectly legal in EDH (this is especially relevant because they're all legendary creatures). How would you like your opponent playing with a My Little Pony card as their legal, completely legitimate commander?
Right now, the biggest thing I'm angry about is that availability simply isn't widespread. There are a large number of places in the world where this either won't be shipped or where the shipping easily doubles the price... which is kind of a problem for a product that is legal in any format.
While functional reprints can be created in the future (unlike RL cards), the fact is that 1) Wizards will probably never reprint these exact cards again (doing so would likely require another payment to AMC and another contract) and 2) those functional reprints and these cards will not be mutually exclusive. Players in America will have a much better chance of having both Negan as their commander AND "Not-Negan" in their 99 to double the treasures provided while other players in other regions are far more likely to be stuck with just Not-Negan unless they pay out the nose... because they live in the wrong country.
Imagine if a card that wizards could never reprint was only released in Japan and was only printed in Japanese and was legal in one or more formats. Not a good feeling or a good look.
I think you may have missed the first 5 pages of this thread, the various discussions and arguments going on within the realms of Reddit AND Twitter, etc - as if you had read those, you would have seen a number of reasons that people dislike this, some thematic, many mechanical/with regard to handling releasing product to game, some regarding availability issues, etc.
That would be fine to me.
In fact I don't see how that is a problem for a casual format.
I know the cEDH hijack is real but jeez. Just let someone use a card if they want to.
I do have a Rodan led commander deck.
MaRo has already confirmed that if they did functional reprints it would work like the Godzilla promos and you wouldn't be able to play both. See just above in this thread.
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Missed that part of the most recent post. Thanks.
Am considerably less angry now. They're just unlabeled re-skins of cards to be reprinted at an unlisted point... kind of like Zilortha. I can probably live with that.
If the goal is to be reprintable if needed with the Magic IP with a Magic name and art, and the technology with the Godzilla cards exists, citing that they are "unaesthetically attractive" as why they don't use the technology, that means: They created more work for themselves in the future as they will have to errata and reprint TWD cards with proper formatting using the Godzilla technology to retrofit it.
That stream was essentially WotC's own "Do you guys not have phones?" moment.
Let's take this a little further, if Rarity was blackbordered this could easily be considered strong in a format like Legacy and Vintage with rares and mythics. If they intended it for actual play you could see this having WU cost and be a 3/3 with those same abilities.
Hell, take a look at the Heroes of the Realms cards. Most of those would be between good to straight amazing in Commander, a few potentially in Eternal formats. Diabolical Salvation would be playable in Standard, potentially Modern. Inerva, Master of Insights could be played in any format it would be allowed in. The Legend of Arena would be insane in near every format. Even Chandra, Gremlin Wrangler could have easily been in War of the Spark and playable.
They've shown that they are unable to balance things like these well.
I usually hate Alpha Investments, and that start to the video by hand waving the legitimate frustration of this product is one of those reasons, but hearing what he said is really no surprise that we are seeing this. Hearing that they did this solely because they weren't doing so hot for a couple of years is amazing considering that Arena has done well for them and recent Magic sets, and products, have done better as well.
It it is quite jarring though. When you start wanting to do these crossovers and talking to dozens of companies it means you are desperate. Now that Magic is doing well this desperate move during recent successes may just hurt them again like that.
They really need to just make a damn game and not try and make an e-sport.
I'd love it if it makes them happy. Let people have their fun. It's 2020.
Now as for My Little Pony, my brother has one as a commander. We've been playing silver border cards since pre Unstable. I think some people have forgotten that commander is supposed to be FUN. You're supposed to sit around the table, eat fat kid food, joke around, and have a good time. This is a format people play tons of alters and I even have plenty of adult oriented ones that might not be so welcome in some LGS. Who cares if you can have an Optimus Prime or Scooby Doo commander? Some people play a flying purple hippo or a gang or beebles.
Thank the heavens. JKR is an idiot. I don't care if she made a solid series; she quickly ruined it for me trying to appeal to people just to make herself relevant again. I'm very happy they're skipping out on that crossover.
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While I disagree on Harry Potter being a solid series, although it did introduce reading to a generation of children, it is very strange why she is completely screwing with her own series this much. Usually you'd find a publisher, studio, or director screwing over your own vision, but with Rowling I've never seen someone do this to their own work like this.
But there's a reason for why silver border or Godzilla-style "skins" are (or were, I guess…) a thing. Magic has its own universe. IP crossovers cards with no in-universe equivalent should not be legal by default because it dilutes MtGs own creative vision.
Needlessly creates a new system to do the same thing anyway.
You gotta admit this is horrid decision making. At least if the Godzilla cards had this triangle stamp, that would mean there is still a precedent, but there isn't, as they have an oval stamp and use a bigname-smallname system. It only creates needless confusion because as to paraphrase Mark Rosewater 'muh aesthetics'.
Well, I guess the real name of the card would be the TWD name, and the skin card would be the in-universe mtg card, so the latter would have the subtitle. They still might not reprint these cards for years, but it would be wrong to imply that they are on their own Reserved List, right?
It just stinks that they can make cards in this fashion when one of these cards could potentially become a 4x in an eternal format. It takes a long time to damage control by printing more in another product. Forcing this into a limited time window is a horrible idea because of that, and this product is not accessible to much of the world. If you have the extra cash, buying these just to sell out of country might be a "charitable" or "profitable" thing to do, but it comes with potential risks, and WOTC/Hazbro should be bearing that burden and not players.
You play the cards you feel fit “MtGs own creative vision” in your eyes, and let others play their Godzillas, Transformers, My Little Ponies, Walkers, cartoon Goblins, and anime waifu Planeswalkers if it makes them happy. Don’t police what others may find fun or interesting. Let them enjoy their cards as you enjoy yours.
Have you been outside lately?
This isn't even the worst thing going on in Magic, let alone the world, and you're investing this much emotional energy into it? Literally my entire livelihood is tied to this game and I'm not upset about this, what's wrong with y'all? Let people like things.