The announcement seems rather ridiculous. I get the feeling, reading it, that Uro was only ever tested with sets prior to it and not necessarily ahead of it. What utter nonsense.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
What I find laughable is that they said they recognized how warping Uro was, but they wanted to wait for rotation to let the metagame change and adapt to him.
"Hey let's introduce this set full of landfall and other land-based interactions, I wonder how they'll adapt to Uro?"
"Gee, all of these decks are actually incorporating Uro, because it helps them survive the early game, draws them a card, gives them access to a recursive late-game threat, AND gives them extra land drops, which is what their deck cares about?"
"Who could have possibly predicted this?"
"-surprised pikachu face-"
and lotus cobra that’s the most important part of the deck
and to make it worse watch people replace uro in the omnath decks with Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Uro filled a unique role in the deck, and without him these ramp decks will be far less dominant. Uro provided both the acceleration and longevity needed for these decks to reach their late game, gave them a replacement card to work with, and sat in the graveyard to come back later in the game as a huge beater that generated insane amounts of value. Azusa won't be anywhere near Uro in terms of serving as a viable replacement, because she doesn't fill the same role. The deck will still be great, but it will definitely have more trouble surviving to the late game.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
and it seems it works... the secret lair thread has far more posts
R.I.P. standard ... no one cares
Unfortunately, there's just not a lot to talk about here. Most people saw this coming as they never ban brand new cards so Lotus Cobra and Omnath were strictly off the table. This was going to be the only thing that would happen.
On one hand, good riddance Uro. I'm really happy to see that stupid design out, however, considering Omnath is still a thing I don't see the format getting substantially better but hey, gotta sell those packs. On the other hand, I can't see Lotus Cobra being ban-worthy, a 2/1 for 2 without any defensive ability can be kept in check by pretty much every single removal spell in the format.
Exactly, but the problem is everyone now seemingly forgets to play removal because Magic has apparently become a game where everyone races to get their mythic finishers out while ignoring the fact that there's another game being played by the opposition. Arena has also increased best-of-one popularity which has no sideboarding, and only encourages less interactive responses. Many players make a similar mistake in chess and go when they overextend an attack while preemptively thinking they have a tempo advantage, but are overlooking a change in lines of sight or a countermove in their opponent's strategy which causes things to change drastically and disrupt the delicate balance of power in the board state.
On one hand, good riddance Uro. I'm really happy to see that stupid design out, however, considering Omnath is still a thing I don't see the format getting substantially better but hey, gotta sell those packs. On the other hand, I can't see Lotus Cobra being ban-worthy, a 2/1 for 2 without any defensive ability can be kept in check by pretty much every single removal spell in the format.
Exactly, but the problem is everyone now seemingly forgets to play removal because Magic has apparently become a game where everyone races to get their mythic finishers out while ignoring the fact that there's another game being played by the opposition. Arena has also increased best-of-one popularity which has no sideboarding, and only encourages less interactive responses. Many players make a similar mistake in chess and go when they overextend an attack while preemptively thinking they have a tempo advantage, but are overlooking a change in lines of sight or a countermove in their opponent's strategy which causes things to change drastically and disrupt the delicate balance of power in the board state.
well, the issue remains being the good old "threats are MUCH better than the answers" that we have today.
even in modern oftentimes we have a goldfish meta because of this.
if you´re going to print explosive stupid threats, you have to give players great answers to deal with those or else, the meta becomes the trainwreck that is standard today (and for the last 15 months or so)
I feel that this ban was just another example of them pushing too much power or not doing good enough testing to see just how powerful interactions were.
That being said, I think I'm fine with and understand why they only banned uro at first. Them not wanting to ban cards from the newest set is at least understandable from a business standpoint, as they wanna sell packs of the new set. It also allows the format to adapt and see if the new cards are actually broken.
keep in mind I haven't played standard in a while so I might just not even be in the same ballpark as everyone else
Honestly I'm fine with them pushing power level and sometimes having to ban things as a result. It means that we get more cool, powerful cards instead of nice, safe, boring cards. That said, the ideal situation is that they push threat power while simultaneously printing efficient removal and counterspells. It is really important for the health of the competitive scene that they stop listening to the brats who whine about having their big plays answered.
Honestly I'm fine with them pushing power level and sometimes having to ban things as a result. It means that we get more cool, powerful cards instead of nice, safe, boring cards. That said, the ideal situation is that they push threat power while simultaneously printing efficient removal and counterspells. It is really important for the health of the competitive scene that they stop listening to the brats who whine about having their big plays answered.
The point being "sometimes", not the clusterf*ck we've seen for the last year and a half, but yeah, they print busted crap like Omnath and instead of bringing back some good answers like Mana Leak at least or Doom Blade (God forbid they ever try and see if good ol' Counterspell is safe at this point),they take their sweet time to finally print a solid removal spell,also, too many powerful cards on their own right come with "draw a card" or "gain life" tacked on to them, often together like f****g Uro or Omnath, which means answering them with spot removal is a losing proposition, and the lifegain bit preemptively counters a burn spell just in case/blanks the free hit the opponent gets from you playing a ramp spell that adds nothing to the board.
It's clear testing is failing miserably, what I wonder is how bad is it going to be with the following sets, they KNEW Omnath+Fires, just to name one very stupid thing were going to be together in Standard, and still let those go through...and the less said about 1-mana Dismiss, 3feri or Broko the better.
Honestly I'm fine with them pushing power level and sometimes having to ban things as a result. It means that we get more cool, powerful cards instead of nice, safe, boring cards. That said, the ideal situation is that they push threat power while simultaneously printing efficient removal and counterspells. It is really important for the health of the competitive scene that they stop listening to the brats who whine about having their big plays answered.
The point being "sometimes", not the clusterf*ck we've seen for the last year and a half, but yeah, they print busted crap like Omnath and instead of bringing back some good answers like Mana Leak at least or Doom Blade (God forbid they ever try and see if good ol' Counterspell is safe at this point),they take their sweet time to finally print a solid removal spell,also, too many powerful cards on their own right come with "draw a card" or "gain life" tacked on to them, often together like f****g Uro or Omnath, which means answering them with spot removal is a losing proposition, and the lifegain bit preemptively counters a burn spell just in case/blanks the free hit the opponent gets from you playing a ramp spell that adds nothing to the board.
It's clear testing is failing miserably, what I wonder is how bad is it going to be with the following sets, they KNEW Omnath+Fires, just to name one very stupid thing were going to be together in Standard, and still let those go through...and the less said about 1-mana Dismiss, 3feri or Broko the better.
yeah the whole "gives extra value immediately even if answered" is a pretty big problem nowadays.
i mean, If I cast 4 Omnaths, you kill all 4 right away.
I can still have 4 cards in hand I got from it entering the play and 16 extra life from the lands I play the turn I play Omnath before I pass priority.....
so, even a 0 mana instant that says exile target omnath will still leave you laggin behind while you answer my omnaths.
Honestly I'm fine with them pushing power level and sometimes having to ban things as a result. It means that we get more cool, powerful cards instead of nice, safe, boring cards. That said, the ideal situation is that they push threat power while simultaneously printing efficient removal and counterspells. It is really important for the health of the competitive scene that they stop listening to the brats who whine about having their big plays answered.
The point being "sometimes", not the clusterf*ck we've seen for the last year and a half, but yeah, they print busted crap like Omnath and instead of bringing back some good answers like Mana Leak at least or Doom Blade (God forbid they ever try and see if good ol' Counterspell is safe at this point),they take their sweet time to finally print a solid removal spell,also, too many powerful cards on their own right come with "draw a card" or "gain life" tacked on to them, often together like f****g Uro or Omnath, which means answering them with spot removal is a losing proposition, and the lifegain bit preemptively counters a burn spell just in case/blanks the free hit the opponent gets from you playing a ramp spell that adds nothing to the board.
It's clear testing is failing miserably, what I wonder is how bad is it going to be with the following sets, they KNEW Omnath+Fires, just to name one very stupid thing were going to be together in Standard, and still let those go through...and the less said about 1-mana Dismiss, 3feri or Broko the better.
yeah the whole "gives extra value immediately even if answered" is a pretty big problem nowadays.
i mean, If I cast 4 Omnaths, you kill all 4 right away.
I can still have 4 cards in hand I got from it entering the play and 16 extra life from the lands I play the turn I play Omnath before I pass priority.....
so, even a 0 mana instant that says exile target omnath will still leave you laggin behind while you answer my omnaths.
would things like extirpate / surgical extraction / slaughter games be good enough to serve as balanced answers? it still leaves the problem that those are sb cards while uro is md card but maybe such effects would be enough.
Honestly I'm fine with them pushing power level and sometimes having to ban things as a result. It means that we get more cool, powerful cards instead of nice, safe, boring cards. That said, the ideal situation is that they push threat power while simultaneously printing efficient removal and counterspells. It is really important for the health of the competitive scene that they stop listening to the brats who whine about having their big plays answered.
The point being "sometimes", not the clusterf*ck we've seen for the last year and a half, but yeah, they print busted crap like Omnath and instead of bringing back some good answers like Mana Leak at least or Doom Blade (God forbid they ever try and see if good ol' Counterspell is safe at this point),they take their sweet time to finally print a solid removal spell,also, too many powerful cards on their own right come with "draw a card" or "gain life" tacked on to them, often together like f****g Uro or Omnath, which means answering them with spot removal is a losing proposition, and the lifegain bit preemptively counters a burn spell just in case/blanks the free hit the opponent gets from you playing a ramp spell that adds nothing to the board.
It's clear testing is failing miserably, what I wonder is how bad is it going to be with the following sets, they KNEW Omnath+Fires, just to name one very stupid thing were going to be together in Standard, and still let those go through...and the less said about 1-mana Dismiss, 3feri or Broko the better.
yeah the whole "gives extra value immediately even if answered" is a pretty big problem nowadays.
i mean, If I cast 4 Omnaths, you kill all 4 right away.
I can still have 4 cards in hand I got from it entering the play and 16 extra life from the lands I play the turn I play Omnath before I pass priority.....
so, even a 0 mana instant that says exile target omnath will still leave you laggin behind while you answer my omnaths.
would things like extirpate / surgical extraction / slaughter games be good enough to serve as balanced answers? it still leaves the problem that those are sb cards while uro is md card but maybe such effects would be enough.
Extirpate/Surgical extraction are powerful cards, but they are VERY specific, Slaughter Games doesn't seem fast enough, and it's only really efficient after sideboarding before at that time you already know what opponent is doing... but at that time, you already lost game 1.
yes, they ruin things like Uro, and is awesome against single card strategies in general, but don´t do much against other threats and other decks.
whet we need is general good answers all around... Mana Leak, Doom Blade, Lightning Bolt... stuff that REALLY puts the threats WotC insists on printing on check.
maybe some new mechanic to counteract all the "I get value anyway even if you kill my threat" trend we see today.
print stuff like
"Value Murder" 1BB Instant
Destroy target creature. If it has an enter the battlefield trigger, draw a card.
so you can actually trade up with all the "instant value" threats that plague the meta.
I mean, just imagine a deck with only threats that cantrip against a deck with a godlike removal that exiles anything for 0 mana at instant speed.
the eight and onwards threat for the threat deck will still go unanswered because the godlike removal deck just went out of gas.
we're at a point today where we have stupid powerful threats with reasonable mana costs that gives auto card advantage or some kind of value before they can even be dealt with...
I mean, Omnath Locus of Creation would still be a crazy powerful card, playable and probably ban worthy even if it did not cantrip when he comes into play.... that cantrip just pushes it completely over the border.
because even if it´s immediately killed it has already replaced itself....
picture the scenario where someone plays Omnath, it resolves, than plays a fetchland, and in response to the landfall trigger, opponent Swords to Plowshares Omnath.....
the guy who played Omnath, then cracks the fetch in response.
what´s the final result?
Omnath player has the same amount of cards, 7 more life than before (because STP gives 4, landfall trigger another 4, and cracking the fecth costs 1) and Omnath even gives back the mana that was used to cast it.
the dude killing Omnath is 1 mana down, 1 card down, and just ate a 7 points life swing.... and that's using the probably most broken creature response ever printed as an example.
there are just too many of those "immediate value" threats today, that's precisely what makes them broken.
and that´s the issue at hand.
stuff needs to be possible to answer without losing all that much just to answer it... the game goes downhill extremely quickly when that happens.
EDIT: yes, now I realize that the STP guy played it badly.
they could STP in response to the ETB trigger and at least avoid the 2 landfall triggers to go off.
and then he'd be 4 life, 1 card and 1 mana down. but opponent wouldn't get the mana back.
print stuff like
"Value Murder" 1BB Instant
Destroy target creature. If it has an enter the battlefield trigger, draw a card.
This makes sense. I remember in the days when Rishadan Port was the game ruiner and then in Invasion block they printed Tsabo's Web and Teferi's Response as a way to nullify it. Not sure how well it worked but it was something.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
print stuff like
"Value Murder" 1BB Instant
Destroy target creature. If it has an enter the battlefield trigger, draw a card.
This makes sense. I remember in the days when Rishadan Port was the game ruiner and then in Invasion block they printed Tsabo's Web and Teferi's Response as a way to nullify it. Not sure how well it worked but it was something.
'buster
well, those things are powerful sideboard cards, but aren't even close to be playable in the maindeck by any stretch.
we need to attack a generic issue with generic solutions.
if a lot of threats will keep generating value just because you have cast it, even if they are answered right away, then the generic spells that would deal with general threats also need to do something about that.
well, those things are powerful sideboard cards, but aren't even close to be playable in the maindeck by any stretch.
we need to attack a generic issue with generic solutions.
if a lot of threats will keep generating value just because you have cast it, even if they are answered right away, then the generic spells that would deal with general threats also need to do something about that.
Answers that cantrip are almost always great, if they are not overcosted.
A 2 mana answer that cantrips is total value if it hits what it needs to hit.
A Rest in Peace that cantrips, people would absolutely maindeck that all the time, as there is no downside and its all upside against the opponent that it will hurt.
----
Right now the "its all upside" is only true for planeswalkers and creatures that are just way too stupidely powerful , and even if they are answered, the player is still ahead at least a card, and if its not stopped immediately, these cards snowball a game on their own.
An "answer" is way too specific at this point, as removal now is even more expensive than what it wants to kill and you can answer a bomb even better with your own bomb (just like playing your own Jace back in the day to legend rule the opponents Jace away ; such interactions are just awful for the health of the game).
----
Magic has so many card types by now, that interacting with all of them is just not realistic.
If lands can win on their own, creatures, planeswalkers, enchantments, artifacts ; you need very efficient Vindicate style removal, and even then you cant win against an onslaught of 2for1 against you ; if creatures pack indestructible, hexproof, cant be countered, or simply return from the graveyard over and over ; removal just doesnt work in such a field of threats.
If almost any card provides a card draw effect, a removal is just not working.
To properly punish a player for a bomb creature, you would need to have powerful control magic effects to turn their powerful cards against them.
Its really difficult to design removal that is on par with the thread level for constructed.
print stuff like
"Value Murder" 1BB Instant
Destroy target creature. If it has an enter the battlefield trigger, draw a card.
This makes sense. I remember in the days when Rishadan Port was the game ruiner and then in Invasion block they printed Tsabo's Web and Teferi's Response as a way to nullify it. Not sure how well it worked but it was something.
print stuff like
"Value Murder" 1BB Instant
Destroy target creature. If it has an enter the battlefield trigger, draw a card.
This makes sense. I remember in the days when Rishadan Port was the game ruiner and then in Invasion block they printed Tsabo's Web and Teferi's Response as a way to nullify it. Not sure how well it worked but it was something.
'buster
well, those things are powerful sideboard cards, but aren't even close to be playable in the maindeck by any stretch.
we need to attack a generic issue with generic solutions.
if a lot of threats will keep generating value just because you have cast it, even if they are answered right away, then the generic spells that would deal with general threats also need to do something about that.
Well... those sideboard cards worked really well against those strategies. Thats the entire point in a sideboard. It helps you when the deck naturally cant deal with something, and no deck should be able to deal with everything all the time. Its kind of a modern idea, and fault in design, that a deck should be able to deal with everything
Well... those sideboard cards worked really well against those strategies. Thats the entire point in a sideboard. It helps you when the deck naturally cant deal with something, and no deck should be able to deal with everything all the time. Its kind of a modern idea, and fault in design, that a deck should be able to deal with everything
If you want to play a long controlish game you NEED to be able to deal with everything, otherwise the card you cant deal with will just wiggle you down.
An aggro deck can "ignore" cards simply by winning over or under them, they dont have to deal with them at all if they can just overpower them with even more threats.
If you play the answer-game you cannot have a real deck that just flat out cant deal with something (at least if its not super fringe, lets say, if its relevant in a metagame, a reasonable controll deck needs to be able to answer everything, otherwise its just not working).
----
The easiest way to archive that is with counterspells that simply counter anything and if only creatures matter, a simple board wipe will deal with it, no matter how many.
Planeswalkers represent a threat that wins the long game , so a control deck absolutely needs a way to deal with them, otherwise they cannot win the long game at all if 1 resolved Planeswalker would spell game over.
If the planeswalker is the threat AND the answer to any problem, you got a problem.
Well... those sideboard cards worked really well against those strategies. Thats the entire point in a sideboard. It helps you when the deck naturally cant deal with something, and no deck should be able to deal with everything all the time. Its kind of a modern idea, and fault in design, that a deck should be able to deal with everything
If you want to play a long controlish game you NEED to be able to deal with everything, otherwise the card you cant deal with will just wiggle you down.
An aggro deck can "ignore" cards simply by winning over or under them, they dont have to deal with them at all if they can just overpower them with even more threats.
If you play the answer-game you cannot have a real deck that just flat out cant deal with something (at least if its not super fringe, lets say, if its relevant in a metagame, a reasonable controll deck needs to be able to answer everything, otherwise its just not working).
----
The easiest way to archive that is with counterspells that simply counter anything and if only creatures matter, a simple board wipe will deal with it, no matter how many.
Planeswalkers represent a threat that wins the long game , so a control deck absolutely needs a way to deal with them, otherwise they cannot win the long game at all if 1 resolved Planeswalker would spell game over.
If the planeswalker is the threat AND the answer to any problem, you got a problem.
Oh okay, i guess 20 years of good sideboarding making all the difference in matchups was wrong then. Guess youre right. Control decks have always been an impermiable wall of denial.
print stuff like
"Value Murder" 1BB Instant
Destroy target creature. If it has an enter the battlefield trigger, draw a card.
This makes sense. I remember in the days when Rishadan Port was the game ruiner and then in Invasion block they printed Tsabo's Web and Teferi's Response as a way to nullify it. Not sure how well it worked but it was something.
'buster
well, those things are powerful sideboard cards, but aren't even close to be playable in the maindeck by any stretch.
we need to attack a generic issue with generic solutions.
if a lot of threats will keep generating value just because you have cast it, even if they are answered right away, then the generic spells that would deal with general threats also need to do something about that.
Well... those sideboard cards worked really well against those strategies. Thats the entire point in a sideboard. It helps you when the deck naturally cant deal with something, and no deck should be able to deal with everything all the time. Its kind of a modern idea, and fault in design, that a deck should be able to deal with everything
the point here is simple....
the problem cards are EVERYWHERE.
nowadays to even be playable, big threats must generate instant value, so removal that deals with them will still leave the player playing the threats ahead of the player dealing with them.
you don't deal with a trend that's everywhere printing sideboard.... you need maindeckable answers that are able to do it.
Instant value creatures really shouldn't be of a large and efficiently costed size. It's a trend that really started with Prime Time and friends, and has basically burned them every time it could.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
and a card can take uro’s place and that’s Solemn Simulacrum it’s only a single mana more and colorless
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
"Hey let's introduce this set full of landfall and other land-based interactions, I wonder how they'll adapt to Uro?"
"Gee, all of these decks are actually incorporating Uro, because it helps them survive the early game, draws them a card, gives them access to a recursive late-game threat, AND gives them extra land drops, which is what their deck cares about?"
"Who could have possibly predicted this?"
"-surprised pikachu face-"
Uro filled a unique role in the deck, and without him these ramp decks will be far less dominant. Uro provided both the acceleration and longevity needed for these decks to reach their late game, gave them a replacement card to work with, and sat in the graveyard to come back later in the game as a huge beater that generated insane amounts of value. Azusa won't be anywhere near Uro in terms of serving as a viable replacement, because she doesn't fill the same role. The deck will still be great, but it will definitely have more trouble surviving to the late game.
They managed to do that with the Secret Lair, instead. That's one good Monday for Wizards.
R.I.P. standard ... no one cares
Unfortunately, there's just not a lot to talk about here. Most people saw this coming as they never ban brand new cards so Lotus Cobra and Omnath were strictly off the table. This was going to be the only thing that would happen.
Exactly, but the problem is everyone now seemingly forgets to play removal because Magic has apparently become a game where everyone races to get their mythic finishers out while ignoring the fact that there's another game being played by the opposition. Arena has also increased best-of-one popularity which has no sideboarding, and only encourages less interactive responses. Many players make a similar mistake in chess and go when they overextend an attack while preemptively thinking they have a tempo advantage, but are overlooking a change in lines of sight or a countermove in their opponent's strategy which causes things to change drastically and disrupt the delicate balance of power in the board state.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
well, the issue remains being the good old "threats are MUCH better than the answers" that we have today.
even in modern oftentimes we have a goldfish meta because of this.
if you´re going to print explosive stupid threats, you have to give players great answers to deal with those or else, the meta becomes the trainwreck that is standard today (and for the last 15 months or so)
That being said, I think I'm fine with and understand why they only banned uro at first. Them not wanting to ban cards from the newest set is at least understandable from a business standpoint, as they wanna sell packs of the new set. It also allows the format to adapt and see if the new cards are actually broken.
keep in mind I haven't played standard in a while so I might just not even be in the same ballpark as everyone else
The point being "sometimes", not the clusterf*ck we've seen for the last year and a half, but yeah, they print busted crap like Omnath and instead of bringing back some good answers like Mana Leak at least or Doom Blade (God forbid they ever try and see if good ol' Counterspell is safe at this point),they take their sweet time to finally print a solid removal spell,also, too many powerful cards on their own right come with "draw a card" or "gain life" tacked on to them, often together like f****g Uro or Omnath, which means answering them with spot removal is a losing proposition, and the lifegain bit preemptively counters a burn spell just in case/blanks the free hit the opponent gets from you playing a ramp spell that adds nothing to the board.
It's clear testing is failing miserably, what I wonder is how bad is it going to be with the following sets, they KNEW Omnath+Fires, just to name one very stupid thing were going to be together in Standard, and still let those go through...and the less said about 1-mana Dismiss, 3feri or Broko the better.
yeah the whole "gives extra value immediately even if answered" is a pretty big problem nowadays.
i mean, If I cast 4 Omnaths, you kill all 4 right away.
I can still have 4 cards in hand I got from it entering the play and 16 extra life from the lands I play the turn I play Omnath before I pass priority.....
so, even a 0 mana instant that says exile target omnath will still leave you laggin behind while you answer my omnaths.
would things like extirpate / surgical extraction / slaughter games be good enough to serve as balanced answers? it still leaves the problem that those are sb cards while uro is md card but maybe such effects would be enough.
Extirpate/Surgical extraction are powerful cards, but they are VERY specific, Slaughter Games doesn't seem fast enough, and it's only really efficient after sideboarding before at that time you already know what opponent is doing... but at that time, you already lost game 1.
yes, they ruin things like Uro, and is awesome against single card strategies in general, but don´t do much against other threats and other decks.
whet we need is general good answers all around...
Mana Leak, Doom Blade, Lightning Bolt... stuff that REALLY puts the threats WotC insists on printing on check.
maybe some new mechanic to counteract all the "I get value anyway even if you kill my threat" trend we see today.
print stuff like
"Value Murder" 1BB Instant
Destroy target creature. If it has an enter the battlefield trigger, draw a card.
so you can actually trade up with all the "instant value" threats that plague the meta.
I mean, just imagine a deck with only threats that cantrip against a deck with a godlike removal that exiles anything for 0 mana at instant speed.
the eight and onwards threat for the threat deck will still go unanswered because the godlike removal deck just went out of gas.
we're at a point today where we have stupid powerful threats with reasonable mana costs that gives auto card advantage or some kind of value before they can even be dealt with...
I mean, Omnath Locus of Creation would still be a crazy powerful card, playable and probably ban worthy even if it did not cantrip when he comes into play.... that cantrip just pushes it completely over the border.
because even if it´s immediately killed it has already replaced itself....
picture the scenario where someone plays Omnath, it resolves, than plays a fetchland, and in response to the landfall trigger, opponent Swords to Plowshares Omnath.....
the guy who played Omnath, then cracks the fetch in response.
what´s the final result?
Omnath player has the same amount of cards, 7 more life than before (because STP gives 4, landfall trigger another 4, and cracking the fecth costs 1) and Omnath even gives back the mana that was used to cast it.
the dude killing Omnath is 1 mana down, 1 card down, and just ate a 7 points life swing.... and that's using the probably most broken creature response ever printed as an example.
there are just too many of those "immediate value" threats today, that's precisely what makes them broken.
and that´s the issue at hand.
stuff needs to be possible to answer without losing all that much just to answer it... the game goes downhill extremely quickly when that happens.
EDIT: yes, now I realize that the STP guy played it badly.
they could STP in response to the ETB trigger and at least avoid the 2 landfall triggers to go off.
and then he'd be 4 life, 1 card and 1 mana down. but opponent wouldn't get the mana back.
This makes sense. I remember in the days when Rishadan Port was the game ruiner and then in Invasion block they printed Tsabo's Web and Teferi's Response as a way to nullify it. Not sure how well it worked but it was something.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
well, those things are powerful sideboard cards, but aren't even close to be playable in the maindeck by any stretch.
we need to attack a generic issue with generic solutions.
if a lot of threats will keep generating value just because you have cast it, even if they are answered right away, then the generic spells that would deal with general threats also need to do something about that.
Answers that cantrip are almost always great, if they are not overcosted.
A 2 mana answer that cantrips is total value if it hits what it needs to hit.
A Rest in Peace that cantrips, people would absolutely maindeck that all the time, as there is no downside and its all upside against the opponent that it will hurt.
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Right now the "its all upside" is only true for planeswalkers and creatures that are just way too stupidely powerful , and even if they are answered, the player is still ahead at least a card, and if its not stopped immediately, these cards snowball a game on their own.
An "answer" is way too specific at this point, as removal now is even more expensive than what it wants to kill and you can answer a bomb even better with your own bomb (just like playing your own Jace back in the day to legend rule the opponents Jace away ; such interactions are just awful for the health of the game).
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Magic has so many card types by now, that interacting with all of them is just not realistic.
If lands can win on their own, creatures, planeswalkers, enchantments, artifacts ; you need very efficient Vindicate style removal, and even then you cant win against an onslaught of 2for1 against you ; if creatures pack indestructible, hexproof, cant be countered, or simply return from the graveyard over and over ; removal just doesnt work in such a field of threats.
If almost any card provides a card draw effect, a removal is just not working.
To properly punish a player for a bomb creature, you would need to have powerful control magic effects to turn their powerful cards against them.
Its really difficult to design removal that is on par with the thread level for constructed.
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In Visions, they printed Anvil of Bogardan as an answer to Necropotence.
Well... those sideboard cards worked really well against those strategies. Thats the entire point in a sideboard. It helps you when the deck naturally cant deal with something, and no deck should be able to deal with everything all the time. Its kind of a modern idea, and fault in design, that a deck should be able to deal with everything
If you want to play a long controlish game you NEED to be able to deal with everything, otherwise the card you cant deal with will just wiggle you down.
An aggro deck can "ignore" cards simply by winning over or under them, they dont have to deal with them at all if they can just overpower them with even more threats.
If you play the answer-game you cannot have a real deck that just flat out cant deal with something (at least if its not super fringe, lets say, if its relevant in a metagame, a reasonable controll deck needs to be able to answer everything, otherwise its just not working).
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The easiest way to archive that is with counterspells that simply counter anything and if only creatures matter, a simple board wipe will deal with it, no matter how many.
Planeswalkers represent a threat that wins the long game , so a control deck absolutely needs a way to deal with them, otherwise they cannot win the long game at all if 1 resolved Planeswalker would spell game over.
If the planeswalker is the threat AND the answer to any problem, you got a problem.
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Oh okay, i guess 20 years of good sideboarding making all the difference in matchups was wrong then. Guess youre right. Control decks have always been an impermiable wall of denial.
the problem cards are EVERYWHERE.
nowadays to even be playable, big threats must generate instant value, so removal that deals with them will still leave the player playing the threats ahead of the player dealing with them.
you don't deal with a trend that's everywhere printing sideboard.... you need maindeckable answers that are able to do it.
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