This is how a ban list should be used. Not just as an emergency fix for obviously broken formats but as a healthy booster for when formats stagnate or as basic quality of play improvements.
This is how a ban list should be used. Not just as an emergency fix for obviously broken formats but as a healthy booster for when formats stagnate or as basic quality of play improvements.
I disagree, new sets and rotation should be the only needed cure for stagnation. This was an obviously broken format and some of these bannings are a year overdue.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
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But there stupid mistake is Teferi and growth should have happened way way way way...way sooner
and now that balistia got the hammer in pioneer how much will it drop now first reprint in 2XM and now this
and I pulled inverter as my Nearly my first few ever mythics when I saw thassa Oracle and war Jace I knew it would spike for a loophole to do laboratory maniac Deck in pioneer
And also HOW DOES URO KEEP SURVIVING THESE BAN HAMMERS!?!?!
Almost 70% of decks in the arena tournament on Saturday (day 1) was using spiral. When a 2-color card appears in 70% of all decks... that isn’t a good sign.
Almost 70% of decks in the arena tournament on Saturday (day 1) was using spiral. When a 2-color card appears in 70% of all decks... that isn’t a good sign.
how many of those decks used uro? for that matter how many decks in that tournament used all these cards?
i'm not saying those bans were uwarranted but rather that spiral would be fine with the other ones banned and if uro was banned as well. but as it was pointed out commons do not sell packs. :/
i wonder how this bans will affect pioneer in long term. i would not feel confident in investing neither my time nor money into format where from time to time wotc decides to remove top decks because they are... well, top decks. if the underlying issue (which is that format warping cards are being printed in standard sets) will not be fixed then the same problem will arise sooner or later.
Anyone who is mad about the Pioneer bannings are the ones who play combo decks in CEDH and want to win as fast as possible. That in itself is parasitic for the game. My buddy got so mad that he’s done with Pioneer because of Ballista being banned. It’s not about the decks being strong. It’s about them being too value driven and you either playing those decks or not having a reason to even play the format.
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I'm quite shocked and disappointed to say the least because I ordered the artifact Secret Lair x4 which hasn't even been shipped out yet, and now I can't even use the cards!
WTF Wizards?
What kind of scandalous bait and switch is that?
Do you like intentionally upsetting your own paying consumers?
Step 1: Design pushed competitive game pieces
Step 2: Design obvious combo piece to synergize with and improve competitive recently printed game piece
Step 3: Sell premium alternate art copies of said cards directly to the consumer at a mark-up for people who may have missed them the first time around
Step 4: Ban them so players who haven't even received their reprint shipments yet can't even use them in the formats they were intended for.
Really?
Can anyone explain the logic behind this process?
Can combo decks only exist in vintage without players getting upset when they lose to them?
I specifically ordered that lair because I didn't have walking ballistas or arcbound ravagers (I couldn't care less about darksteel colossus which I was planning to sell immediately), but now I feel like a sucker who paid a premium for nothing, and I don't even have my order yet! Unbelievable! Is the combo even viable in modern? Seems way too slow, and I certainly don't need ballistas for commander. I had bett4r open some sweet stained glass window walkers in those lairs to make up the loss or I'll never take the bait for one of these overpriced special edition products again!
Standard bans of course make sense but happened way too late. I see a card like cauldron familiar, at uncommon no less, and I wonder how broken the design system is to begin with.
Clearly powercreep has gotten way out of control!
If there's one thing which should be banned and never printed again, it's mythic rarity!
What has it done for the game except drive up the cost for all of us?
Has it actually made the game more "fun"?
At the risk of sounding nostalgic about the 90s (which admittedly I am), without mythic rarity things would go back to normal (at least in standard), the game can be properly balanced and slowed down (surely we can all agree that standard feels faster than it should be), chase cards in standard won't be $50+, and then nothing will need to be banned because cards won't be absurdly designed, created intentionally as auto-includes for particular colors (or archetypes), and pushed to sell packs to the consumer under the false pretense that those players can actually use the cards contained within for at least as long as they remain legal in standard format.
Banning these cards now is nothing short of trying to fix one mistake by making another which directly alienates and upsets customers who buy these cards with the understanding they can actually be played with in sanctioned events (regardless of whether live events are on hold for the time being which is entirely circumstantial and irrelevant to the ban decision, as many among us still purchase physical cards which we hope(d) to use when live events eventually resume.
i'll say the same thing i've said almost all year, but maybe i'll say it a little louder this time:
more resources need to be poured into development. not just design. they also need to nail down the disconnect between design and development. these types of bannings should not be happening this frequently. let design go ham, but development needs to reign it in and achieve balance. they haven't been doing that. the long term health of the game, and faith in the product, erodes the more frequently this happens.
that said, some of these were LONG overdue. i also feel ugin and uro both need to go too, but i'm sure we'll see them hit with the ban hammer eventually.
At the risk of sounding nostalgic about the 90s (which admittedly I am), without mythic rarity things would go back to normal (at least in standard), the game can be properly balanced and slowed down (surely we can all agree that standard feels faster than it should be), chase cards in standard won't be $50+, and then nothing will need to be banned because cards won't be absurdly designed, created intentionally as auto-includes for particular colors (or archetypes), and pushed to sell packs to the consumer under the false pretense that those players can actually use the cards contained within for at least as long as they remain legal in standard format.
It is nostalgic but also correct. The problem is that: that particular style of game is not what WoTC is going for right now. Its instant gratification, quick matches. I wouldn't mind it slowed down and powered down but the current commenters on many sites every set is that it's not powerful enough and these are the sets will all these broken cards.
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Resigned up after getting lost in the Twitch/MTGS whatever crossover
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
Hey at least playing on Arena will be tolerable now...hopefully.
The amount of neglect in design as of late is mind boggling. It shows how much emphasis they put on designing premium product versus their bread-and-butter sets.
‘buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
before dominaria revist you guys were complaining the sets were too weak but now They too powerful what is happening here
It’s a constant pendulum swing, possibly even an intentional strategy from WotC;
For every New Phyrexia or War of the Spark, there’s a Battle for Zendikar or Born of the Gods
(jeez, poor Kiora’s had it rough! )
Can't wait to have fun playing standard, pioneer and historic again.
These should've been banned back in Jan or Feb, not wait so long until most of the cards will rotate out of standard next month.
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Clearly powercreep has gotten way out of control!
If there's one thing which should be banned and never printed again, it's mythic rarity!
What has it done for the game except drive up the cost for all of us?
Has it actually made the game more "fun"?
At the risk of sounding nostalgic about the 90s (which admittedly I am), without mythic rarity things would go back to normal (at least in standard), the game can be properly balanced and slowed down (surely we can all agree that standard feels faster than it should be), chase cards in standard won't be $50+, and then nothing will need to be banned because cards won't be absurdly designed, created intentionally as auto-includes for particular colors (or archetypes), and pushed to sell packs to the consumer under the false pretense that those players can actually use the cards contained within for at least as long as they remain legal in standard format.
Banning these cards now is nothing short of trying to fix one mistake by making another which directly alienates and upsets customers who buy these cards with the understanding they can actually be played with in sanctioned events (regardless of whether live events are on hold for the time being which is entirely circumstantial and irrelevant to the ban decision, as many among us still purchase physical cards which we hope(d) to use when live events eventually resume.
Well, before mythic rarity was introduced, rares were actually rarer. Rares from the larger sets (because sets varied more in the number of rares) were actually as rare as mythic rares were, and they are making mythic rares slightly more frequent now as well. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/year-living-changerously-2008-06-02
The problem with mythic rarity is a problem with the TCG format in general. WotC simply aren't going to stop pushing high rarity chase cards, because that's the business model. Reprint products and reprints in general are the best chance we have of keeping individual card prices in check, because WotC is very unlikely to make any major changes to the rarity system when it's so central to the game's monetisation.
On the subject of the bannings, these are sensible decisions, but I have to say the ban fatigue is definitely setting in for me. I'm in favour of being willing to do standard bans regularly, not just as an emergency answer, but there has been quite a few recently and it's a little exhausting. I like that the cards being banned here have all been in standard for a while so its more like an early rotation than a card just being erased, but I hope WotC finds a way to get the number of banning down a bit in future. Would like to hear more from WotC about this and what they are doing in response.
I'm quite shocked and disappointed to say the least because I ordered the artifact Secret Lair x4 which hasn't even been shipped out yet, and now I can't even use the cards!
WTF Wizards?
What kind of scandalous bait and switch is that?
Do you like intentionally upsetting your own paying consumers?
Step 1: Design pushed competitive game pieces
Step 2: Design obvious combo piece to synergize with and improve competitive recently printed game piece
Step 3: Sell premium alternate art copies of said cards directly to the consumer at a mark-up for people who may have missed them the first time around
Step 4: Ban them so players who haven't even received their reprint shipments yet can't even use them in the formats they were intended for.
Really?
Can anyone explain the logic behind this process?
Can combo decks only exist in vintage without players getting upset when they lose to them?
I specifically ordered that lair because I didn't have walking ballistas or arcbound ravagers (I couldn't care less about darksteel colossus which I was planning to sell immediately), but now I feel like a sucker who paid a premium for nothing, and I don't even have my order yet! Unbelievable! Is the combo even viable in modern? Seems way too slow, and I certainly don't need ballistas for commander. I had bett4r open some sweet stained glass window walkers in those lairs to make up the loss or I'll never take the bait for one of these overpriced special edition products again!
WotC spoke before about the ballista/heliod combo and how they were watching it. That alone should have given you the sign that ballista was on the chopping block eventually. I think you'd need to be a bit silly to think that they'd never ban it in Pioneer. You can still play it in modern/legacy though.
As for who was talking about Legacy...Legacy has NOT been healthy for quite a long time. They finally got around to banning astrolabe though. But I assure you that Legacy is not fine. Oko is a huge problem still. The only reason why you think that legacy is doing "ok" is because it's barely played on any level of competition.
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YESSSSS!!!!
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
I disagree, new sets and rotation should be the only needed cure for stagnation. This was an obviously broken format and some of these bannings are a year overdue.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
But there stupid mistake is Teferi and growth should have happened way way way way...way sooner
and now that balistia got the hammer in pioneer how much will it drop now first reprint in 2XM and now this
and I pulled inverter as my Nearly my first few ever mythics when I saw thassa Oracle and war Jace I knew it would spike for a loophole to do laboratory maniac Deck in pioneer
And also HOW DOES URO KEEP SURVIVING THESE BAN HAMMERS!?!?!
Because they want to sell more Uro still
Almost 70% of decks in the arena tournament on Saturday (day 1) was using spiral. When a 2-color card appears in 70% of all decks... that isn’t a good sign.
i'm not saying those bans were uwarranted but rather that spiral would be fine with the other ones banned and if uro was banned as well. but as it was pointed out commons do not sell packs. :/
i wonder how this bans will affect pioneer in long term. i would not feel confident in investing neither my time nor money into format where from time to time wotc decides to remove top decks because they are... well, top decks. if the underlying issue (which is that format warping cards are being printed in standard sets) will not be fixed then the same problem will arise sooner or later.
WTF Wizards?
What kind of scandalous bait and switch is that?
Do you like intentionally upsetting your own paying consumers?
Step 1: Design pushed competitive game pieces
Step 2: Design obvious combo piece to synergize with and improve competitive recently printed game piece
Step 3: Sell premium alternate art copies of said cards directly to the consumer at a mark-up for people who may have missed them the first time around
Step 4: Ban them so players who haven't even received their reprint shipments yet can't even use them in the formats they were intended for.
Really?
Can anyone explain the logic behind this process?
Can combo decks only exist in vintage without players getting upset when they lose to them?
I specifically ordered that lair because I didn't have walking ballistas or arcbound ravagers (I couldn't care less about darksteel colossus which I was planning to sell immediately), but now I feel like a sucker who paid a premium for nothing, and I don't even have my order yet! Unbelievable! Is the combo even viable in modern? Seems way too slow, and I certainly don't need ballistas for commander. I had bett4r open some sweet stained glass window walkers in those lairs to make up the loss or I'll never take the bait for one of these overpriced special edition products again!
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
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If there's one thing which should be banned and never printed again, it's mythic rarity!
What has it done for the game except drive up the cost for all of us?
Has it actually made the game more "fun"?
At the risk of sounding nostalgic about the 90s (which admittedly I am), without mythic rarity things would go back to normal (at least in standard), the game can be properly balanced and slowed down (surely we can all agree that standard feels faster than it should be), chase cards in standard won't be $50+, and then nothing will need to be banned because cards won't be absurdly designed, created intentionally as auto-includes for particular colors (or archetypes), and pushed to sell packs to the consumer under the false pretense that those players can actually use the cards contained within for at least as long as they remain legal in standard format.
Banning these cards now is nothing short of trying to fix one mistake by making another which directly alienates and upsets customers who buy these cards with the understanding they can actually be played with in sanctioned events (regardless of whether live events are on hold for the time being which is entirely circumstantial and irrelevant to the ban decision, as many among us still purchase physical cards which we hope(d) to use when live events eventually resume.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
more resources need to be poured into development. not just design. they also need to nail down the disconnect between design and development. these types of bannings should not be happening this frequently. let design go ham, but development needs to reign it in and achieve balance. they haven't been doing that. the long term health of the game, and faith in the product, erodes the more frequently this happens.
that said, some of these were LONG overdue. i also feel ugin and uro both need to go too, but i'm sure we'll see them hit with the ban hammer eventually.
It is nostalgic but also correct. The problem is that: that particular style of game is not what WoTC is going for right now. Its instant gratification, quick matches. I wouldn't mind it slowed down and powered down but the current commenters on many sites every set is that it's not powerful enough and these are the sets will all these broken cards.
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
The amount of neglect in design as of late is mind boggling. It shows how much emphasis they put on designing premium product versus their bread-and-butter sets.
‘buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
before dominaria revist you guys were complaining the sets were too weak but now you guys are complaining They too powerful what is happening here.
Heh same as always i guess
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
It’s a constant pendulum swing, possibly even an intentional strategy from WotC;
For every New Phyrexia or War of the Spark, there’s a Battle for Zendikar or Born of the Gods
(jeez, poor Kiora’s had it rough! )
These should've been banned back in Jan or Feb, not wait so long until most of the cards will rotate out of standard next month.
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
Well, before mythic rarity was introduced, rares were actually rarer. Rares from the larger sets (because sets varied more in the number of rares) were actually as rare as mythic rares were, and they are making mythic rares slightly more frequent now as well.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/year-living-changerously-2008-06-02
The problem with mythic rarity is a problem with the TCG format in general. WotC simply aren't going to stop pushing high rarity chase cards, because that's the business model. Reprint products and reprints in general are the best chance we have of keeping individual card prices in check, because WotC is very unlikely to make any major changes to the rarity system when it's so central to the game's monetisation.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
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I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
WotC spoke before about the ballista/heliod combo and how they were watching it. That alone should have given you the sign that ballista was on the chopping block eventually. I think you'd need to be a bit silly to think that they'd never ban it in Pioneer. You can still play it in modern/legacy though.
As for who was talking about Legacy...Legacy has NOT been healthy for quite a long time. They finally got around to banning astrolabe though. But I assure you that Legacy is not fine. Oko is a huge problem still. The only reason why you think that legacy is doing "ok" is because it's barely played on any level of competition.