When Zendikar first came out, it had a lot going on. It had the first appearance of enemy fetchlands. It had 'priceless treasures' repacked as a for-bearer of the lottery cards we got years later. Landfall was one of the best mechanics designed in a long time, finally overcoming the shortcomings of drawing unneeded lands late-game. It was the first block ever to feature vampires as a proper tribe (this was around the time that the Twilight movies were popular, so an obvious move), but most of all it was toted as Magic's version of a plane most resembling Dungeons and Dragons (which lets not forget that WotC also owns).
While Magic has never had an official crossover with D&D yet, D&D has had a couple Magic planes (Ravnica and Theros) as source material for campaigns. Zendikar was a sort of love letter to those of us who really loved the classic D&D settings and tropes. Adventuring guilds, quests for all sorts of reasons, deadly traps, the list goes on. To say that Zendikar has no identity without Eldrazi is pretty weak in my opinion.
The fact that so many of you are saying "Zendikar has no identity out side of the Eldrazi is precisely the problem created by the Eldrazi. Moonliteknight gets it, as do others. Zendikar had more identity without the Eldrazi than many other sets/blocks. However once the Eldrazi arrived, they steamrollered all of that flavor and depth with their one loud note. Which is kinda exactly what happened in all limited games and most constructed games during those blocks. It doesnt matter what deck you were running, what strategy you were using, during the midgame an Eldrazi would show up for one side or the other (since they were colorless and everyone had them) and whoever got theirs first simply won. That's why many of you think that the Eldrazi is all there was, because they're pretty much all that mattered.
That's not prog rock that the masses don't understand. That's a top-40's hit from a band that only knows two chords and uses them in all of their songs.
No here’s the real fatal mistake everyone making with it’s not zendikar is a staple for the eldrazi
zendikar is not the home plane of the eldrazi because they have gone to way more planes than everybody thinks if you look at the lore they basicly older than the dinosaurs
I'm not mad about returning to Zendikar, and very thankful it will be without Eldrazi.
The question for me is, what is the conflict going to be? Who is the antagonists? Will it be vampires, now that they don't need to team up with others to defeat a common foe? (Also, remember that creepy story where we learned that Zendikar vampires were basically created by Eldrazi? Something wild like that.)
Or maybe it will be a bit of Jace vs. Nissa, him trying to get her to rejoin the guildpact? Or Nahiri, still mad, as some sort of antagonist trying to save/rebuild Zendikar but really causing more harm?
I'm not mad about returning to Zendikar, and very thankful it will be without Eldrazi.
The question for me is, what is the conflict going to be? Who is the antagonists? Will it be vampires, now that they don't need to team up with others to defeat a common foe? (Also, remember that creepy story where we learned that Zendikar vampires were basically created by Eldrazi? Something wild like that.)
Or maybe it will be a bit of Jace vs. Nissa, him trying to get her to rejoin the guildpact? Or Nahiri, still mad, as some sort of antagonist trying to save/rebuild Zendikar but really causing more harm?
1. Well if Nahiri finds out that Nissa was the one letting them free in the first place... She helped to destroy them but well damage is done now. I don't know how Nahiri would react to that.
2. We have the vampires (kind of Ulamogs creation) that aren't really natives to Zendikar. We can imaging some kind of tension with the Kor and Humans, here. And well the Eldrazi cult like Ayli.
3. Maybe there isn't a big baddy this time. Just a planes that needs to heal and is creating new forms of life which we can witness.
4. We have Jace there, too. Maybe he try to settle things between Sorin and Nahiri or convince Nissa to join the Gatewatch again. Maybe he will support Nissa with some kind of problem in the plane that we don't know about yet.
I wasn’t playing when Original Zendikar Block came out but I’ve always seen The Roil as Zendikars defining feature not the Eldrazi. It’s greatest facet has been that it, more than any other plane, is it’s own living actor. But in BFZ block we learned that the roil was basically an immune reaction to the eldrazi being sealed there. So what happens to Zendikar now? Emeria comes crashing to the ground? The weather becomes even more volatile as the plane itself adjusts to a new norm? And now all of its denizens have to as well. And here comes Nissa, the person most suited to lead that adjustment because she’s literally it’s best friend.
Also we’ve been gone from Zendikar for coming up on a year(in universe) now? And without their parent eldrazi there empowering them and refreshing their numbers of course Munda and Tazri are eliminating the spawn. Also The people of Zendikar need to learn that their hero is dead, which is probably one of the reasons Jace is there.
1. Well if Nahiri finds out that Nissa was the one letting them free in the first place... She helped to destroy them but well damage is done now. I don't know how Nahiri would react to that.
Nahiri is raging and killing anything and everyone, that how she rolls. Leading Eldrazi to Innistrad is among the top evil you can commit to and she had no problems with that.
2. We have the vampires (kind of Ulamogs creation) that aren't really natives to Zendikar. We can imaging some kind of tension with the Kor and Humans, here. And well the Eldrazi cult like Ayli.
If Nissa does her job and with Nahiri around for utter vengeance on every living being, chances are the plane gets "cleansed".
3. Maybe there isn't a big baddy this time. Just a planes that needs to heal and is creating new forms of life which we can witness.
Unless we get a suprise Phyrexian Invasion that leads us directly to Return to Mirrodin ... wouldnt even be surprised to get some oil on the plane.
4. We have Jace there, too. Maybe he try to settle things between Sorin and Nahiri or convince Nissa to join the Gatewatch again. Maybe he will support Nissa with some kind of problem in the plane that we don't know about yet.
If Sorin and Nahiri get anywhere close to "peace" it would utterly undermine the catastrophic terror they brought upon each other.
They are not really the forgiving type.
Maybe Jace will erase the minds of all of them, including the entire population on the plane, make them forget and "restart" clean.
No here’s the real fatal mistake everyone making with it’s not zendikar is a staple for the eldrazi
zendikar is not the home plane of the eldrazi because they have gone to way more planes than everybody thinks if you look at the lore they basicly older than the dinosaurs
The Eldrazi have gone to probably 3 still alive planes other than Zendikar or Innistrad and thats all we can speculate on known information.
It’s possible sorin will need Nahiri, Nissa and Jace to deal with Emrakul and an allegiance somehow forms in this set. Perhaps sorin pays his dues by helping rebuild Zendikar
The set is called 'Zendikar Rising'. Why do you think it's 'rising'? Look at some of the art they've revealed already also— the set will very clearly have a theme of being in the aftermath of the Eldrazi. There won't be any actual Eldrazi on plane or on cards, but their former presence will clearly be felt in art and lore.
Uhuh, no one is claiming that Zendikar isn't healing from the Eldrazi, but the idea that they have all been wiped out and WotC should ignore that they exist(ed) is just silly. Just because BFZ was terrible and Eldrazi got tiring doesn't mean you ignore an active and living world.
Again, I am not arguing for a set filled with them, but a few in the set isn't going to suddenly mean the eldrazi are coming back full force. You fumigating your house to get rid of ants doesn't mean all ants disappear forever.
The new design space I LOVED that OGW introduced was colorless mana now matters. MaRo has gone on record saying that to do more of that in future sets requires colorless mana resources set aside in the expansion design to make it work, but that’s always something I wish they explore more of, maybe in Zendikar Rising.
This is something I've been waiting for. They made colorless mana matters and we haven't seen any of it in near five years. It amazes me that there hasn't been one other card since then that requires colorless mana.
3. Maybe there isn't a big baddy this time. Just a planes that needs to heal and is creating new forms of life which we can witness.
I think this is more likely, like the last Dominaria set, taking the cabal aside, it was just a story of a world healing/healed from the last time we saw it. The only antagonists I can think of are creatures like Yarok, Kalitas and his followers and people like Ayli, if they still exist.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Thanks to DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this sick Signature.
The set is called 'Zendikar Rising'. Why do you think it's 'rising'? Look at some of the art they've revealed already also— the set will very clearly have a theme of being in the aftermath of the Eldrazi. There won't be any actual Eldrazi on plane or on cards, but their former presence will clearly be felt in art and lore.
Uhuh, no one is claiming that Zendikar isn't healing from the Eldrazi, but the idea that they have all been wiped out and WotC should ignore that they exist(ed) is just silly. Just because BFZ was terrible and Eldrazi got tiring doesn't mean you ignore an active and living world.
Again, I am not arguing for a set filled with them, but a few in the set isn't going to suddenly mean the eldrazi are coming back full force. You fumigating your house to get rid of ants doesn't mean all ants disappear forever.
The new design space I LOVED that OGW introduced was colorless mana now matters. MaRo has gone on record saying that to do more of that in future sets requires colorless mana resources set aside in the expansion design to make it work, but that’s always something I wish they explore more of, maybe in Zendikar Rising.
This is something I've been waiting for. They made colorless mana matters and we haven't seen any of it in near five years. It amazes me that there hasn't been one other card since then that requires colorless mana.
On Arena there's a new symbol- the gold filled circle with a black hollow circle in it. Its the symbol for multicolored cards to sort by in the collection filter / deckbuilder.
This would make a nice new mana symbol to go along with the "must be colorless" symbol that I agree is way underused.
This symbol would be "Must be colored mana, and if multiple symbols appear must be different colored mana than any other mana used for this symbol". Would be useful for multi-modal spells that pay attention to how many/what colors were spent on them, could be Omarth's signature theme, etc.
The set is called 'Zendikar Rising'. Why do you think it's 'rising'? Look at some of the art they've revealed already also— the set will very clearly have a theme of being in the aftermath of the Eldrazi. There won't be any actual Eldrazi on plane or on cards, but their former presence will clearly be felt in art and lore.
Uhuh, no one is claiming that Zendikar isn't healing from the Eldrazi, but the idea that they have all been wiped out and WotC should ignore that they exist(ed) is just silly. Just because BFZ was terrible and Eldrazi got tiring doesn't mean you ignore an active and living world.
Again, I am not arguing for a set filled with them, but a few in the set isn't going to suddenly mean the eldrazi are coming back full force. You fumigating your house to get rid of ants doesn't mean all ants disappear forever.
The new design space I LOVED that OGW introduced was colorless mana now matters. MaRo has gone on record saying that to do more of that in future sets requires colorless mana resources set aside in the expansion design to make it work, but that’s always something I wish they explore more of, maybe in Zendikar Rising.
This is something I've been waiting for. They made colorless mana matters and we haven't seen any of it in near five years. It amazes me that there hasn't been one other card since then that requires colorless mana.
On Arena there's a new symbol- the gold filled circle with a black hollow circle in it. Its the symbol for multicolored cards to sort by in the collection filter / deckbuilder.
This would make a nice new mana symbol to go along with the "must be colorless" symbol that I agree is way underused.
This symbol would be "Must be colored mana, and if multiple symbols appear must be different colored mana than any other mana used for this symbol". Would be useful for multi-modal spells that pay attention to how many/what colors were spent on them, could be Omarth's signature theme, etc.
I’ve seen the gold symbol on rainbow theme in jumpstart as well
and it’s spelled omnath
I would love to see the gold symbol with the circle on offical cards but one problem wouldn’t putting it on legendaries make them five color by default?
The set is called 'Zendikar Rising'. Why do you think it's 'rising'? Look at some of the art they've revealed already also— the set will very clearly have a theme of being in the aftermath of the Eldrazi. There won't be any actual Eldrazi on plane or on cards, but their former presence will clearly be felt in art and lore.
Uhuh, no one is claiming that Zendikar isn't healing from the Eldrazi, but the idea that they have all been wiped out and WotC should ignore that they exist(ed) is just silly.
That's my point. They're not ignoring the Eldrazi existed.
Just because BFZ was terrible and Eldrazi got tiring doesn't mean you ignore an active and living world.
Again, I am not arguing for a set filled with them, but a few in the set isn't going to suddenly mean the eldrazi are coming back full force. You fumigating your house to get rid of ants doesn't mean all ants disappear forever.
I don't know what to tell you dude, the Eldrazi are gone from Zendikar. WotC and many players do not want them to be there. You might, but that's not going to change anything. You're just on the losing side here.
The new design space I LOVED that OGW introduced was colorless mana now matters. MaRo has gone on record saying that to do more of that in future sets requires colorless mana resources set aside in the expansion design to make it work, but that’s always something I wish they explore more of, maybe in Zendikar Rising.
This is something I've been waiting for. They made colorless mana matters and we haven't seen any of it in near five years. It amazes me that there hasn't been one other card since then that requires colorless mana.
We haven't seen it again, because, as what stated, it requires resources to be set aside for a set. That, combined with the issues of confusion it causes with some players, the trickiness in getting it right for design and development, and the need for certain flavour backing—which all make it less likely to be used without a stronger fit.
The set is called 'Zendikar Rising'. Why do you think it's 'rising'? Look at some of the art they've revealed already also— the set will very clearly have a theme of being in the aftermath of the Eldrazi. There won't be any actual Eldrazi on plane or on cards, but their former presence will clearly be felt in art and lore.
Uhuh, no one is claiming that Zendikar isn't healing from the Eldrazi, but the idea that they have all been wiped out and WotC should ignore that they exist(ed) is just silly. Just because BFZ was terrible and Eldrazi got tiring doesn't mean you ignore an active and living world.
Again, I am not arguing for a set filled with them, but a few in the set isn't going to suddenly mean the eldrazi are coming back full force. You fumigating your house to get rid of ants doesn't mean all ants disappear forever.
The new design space I LOVED that OGW introduced was colorless mana now matters. MaRo has gone on record saying that to do more of that in future sets requires colorless mana resources set aside in the expansion design to make it work, but that’s always something I wish they explore more of, maybe in Zendikar Rising.
This is something I've been waiting for. They made colorless mana matters and we haven't seen any of it in near five years. It amazes me that there hasn't been one other card since then that requires colorless mana.
As said, the way the lore currently works the Eldrazi are gone. If you wanted to complain about that you missed your window by over four years now. Your ant analogy is flawed. A better analogy is killing someone means their fingers stop doing things, which again is the equivalent for the Eldrazi. They weren't a hive, they were three giant entities with smaller but still connected pieces.
As said, the way the lore currently works the Eldrazi are gone. If you wanted to complain about that you missed your window by over four years now.
Not sure what the hell you mean by this. I played BFZ and it was terrible. I played RoE and it was great.
I don't care about the Eldrazi specifically just that because people whined like their five that the world of Zendikar loses part of itself. It would be like people getting tired of vampires and they no longer exist on Innistrad. If WotC can just blink things out of existence from worlds then they no longer feel alive and it gives those things a "Why did they exist in the first place if you're just going to get rid of it" sort of feel.
Sorry, but I'd much rather have worlds that feel alive rather than a company removing crap just because some people didn't like a thing.
We haven't seen it again, because, as what stated, it requires resources to be set aside for a set. That, combined with the issues of confusion it causes with some players, the trickiness in getting it right for design and development, and the need for certain flavour backing—which all make it less likely to be used without a stronger fit.
A card every so often that requires colorless mana, even in ability activations, doesn't need a set strictly made for it. It's not like colorless mana was hard to figure out. If they can bring back phasing with little to no issues on one or two cards they can do it with colorless mana.
As said, the way the lore currently works the Eldrazi are gone. If you wanted to complain about that you missed your window by over four years now.
Not sure what the hell you mean by this. I played BFZ and it was terrible. I played RoE and it was great.
I don't care about the Eldrazi specifically just that because people whined like their five that the world of Zendikar loses part of itself. It would be like people getting tired of vampires and they no longer exist on Innistrad. If WotC can just blink things out of existence from worlds then they no longer feel alive and it gives those things a "Why did they exist in the first place if you're just going to get rid of it" sort of feel.
Sorry, but I'd much rather have worlds that feel alive rather than a company removing crap just because some people didn't like a thing.
Opinions are subjective and yours is a minority one in this case. But the point is that lore-wise the Eldrazi being wiped out was already explained and expressed in the original Battle for Zendikar/Oath of the Gatewatch sets.
You also are rather clearly demonstrating you don't know what makes Zendikar what it is when they've been rather straight forward about the Eldrazi being alien invaders, and the majority of fans of Zendikar complaining about them taking over the set. If they felt like a natural extension of the world then they're not doing what they're supposed to do. It's like saying the Phyrexians were a natural part of Mirrodin when, again, they are explicitly outsiders taking it over and subverting it.
Eldrazi are horrible. Ruining a beloved plane. An unpopular concept (Eldrazi) vs. a popular concept (Adventure World). WOTC literally has Zendikar vs. ROE and Zendikar vs. BFZ/OGW - two sets of data confirming that Eldrazi is not liked, while Adventure World is loved. They suffer from Kami unpopularity of just being these abstract, intangible, unfamiliar eyesores that don't resonate, especially in the large numbers in which they were delivered. From the beginning, it should have only been the Eldrazi titans, and when defeated, that's it. Emrakul twisting life is fine, and was done well in low numbers in SOI/Eldritch Moon, showing her influence without corrupting the Innistrad feel. But players have had enough of this unpopular concept. Save it for a Commander deck or something, where its niche fans can appreciate it would compromising an entire plane and block.
We haven't seen it again, because, as what stated, it requires resources to be set aside for a set. That, combined with the issues of confusion it causes with some players, the trickiness in getting it right for design and development, and the need for certain flavour backing—which all make it less likely to be used without a stronger fit.
A card every so often that requires colorless mana, even in ability activations, doesn't need a set strictly made for it. It's not like colorless mana was hard to figure out. If they can bring back phasing with little to no issues on one or two cards they can do it with colorless mana.
Colourless mana requires support in set in order to be able to consistently activate, and like hybrid mana, it's sheer existence in a set no matter the volume adds complexity such that it's not really worth adding just one or two colorless cards to a set (just like with hybrid). Besides, the whole point of colorless mana costs was to be a whole thing with infrastructure. That was part of the appeal. Like a lot of mechanics, it wants to be built around. That's where much of the fun lies.
Phasing has no support necessary and no inherent build around element. It's as to scry to colourless mana costs are to devotion. They aren't comparable in this regard. The fact that phasing can be used like scry scattered wherever in sets is crucial to it being considered as deciduous, while colourless mana costs are not.
As said, the way the lore currently works the Eldrazi are gone. If you wanted to complain about that you missed your window by over four years now.
Not sure what the hell you mean by this. I played BFZ and it was terrible. I played RoE and it was great.
The point was that the Eldrazi were already eliminated from Zendikar. It's not a decision that's been made with Zendikar Rising, it had already been made in advance. Zendikar Rising was always going to be an Eldrazi free Zendikar even before the bad reaction to the Eldrazi in BFZ.
[quote from="Xeruh »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/818169-zendikar-rising-first-look-on-july-25th?comment=115"]
I don't care about the Eldrazi specifically just that because people whined like their five that the world of Zendikar loses part of itself. It would be like people getting tired of vampires and they no longer exist on Innistrad. If WotC can just blink things out of existence from worlds then they no longer feel alive and it gives those things a "Why did they exist in the first place if you're just going to get rid of it" sort of feel.
Sorry, but I'd much rather have worlds that feel alive rather than a company removing crap just because some people didn't like a thing.
The Eldrazi were never a Zendikar thing. From the beginning, the Eldrazi were always something separate from the plane they happened to first appear on. They were designed with Zendikar in mind and vice versa, but they were always supposed to be separate things. The Eldrazi were never supposed to be part of Zendikar's identity, and while you might put them as part of it, many other players did not and WotC has no reason here to go against their own intentions and the majority of the playerbase for the sake of the minority.
You simply can't win this debate,, because you've already lost it. Opinions were already heard, the scales were already weighed, plans were already made. Different people want different things and have different expectations from the game, and there's constantly going to be people who miss out on that. And you can't really argue that your wants and expectations are simply more valid than other peoples. Good game design is not all personal taste, but some of it is and that clearly comes into play here. You can't expect to reason people out of not wanting to see any more Eldrazi. At a certain point, people either like it or they don't. And when it comes to the Eldrazi, a lot of people don't. And that's the end of it.
You're right, they were so not part of Zendikar that the denizens of the world didn't mistake them as their various gods, they didn't have an entire prison system that showed up on near every piece of art for the plane, and there was no history or lore with them on the plane whatsoever.
Look, alien invaders or not you don't hint at something for two sets, have a set dedicated to them (before BFZ), have a backstory where major characters were involved with them in the past on that very plane which also pushed character motivations recently and currently, are the reason vampires exist on the plane, and go "they are not part of the world whatsoever." From the beginning of Zendikar as we know it the Eldrazi were always part of that plane. Yes, the Eldrazi are not 100% the plane, what Zendikar is all about, nor its entire identity, but you cannot sit there and say they are not part of Zendikar's story just like Disney can't go "Rey Palpatine who?"
Again, I'm not arguing that we need a set filled with them, f*** no, but to try and ignore the Eldrazi existed at all is ignoring part of Zendikar's story. I'm not arguing for the Eldrazi themselves, but arguing for why it is important to acknowledge that they did in fact exist and that a giant battle for a plane took place rather than trying to ignore it because a pair of sets was accepted poorly. I am arguing for a breathing world that feels real and not just trying to ignore something because some wish it hadn't happened.
The good and the bad should always be remembered in a story.
You're right, they were so not part of Zendikar that the denizens of the world didn't mistake them as their various gods, they didn't have an entire prison system that showed up on near every piece of art for the plane, and there was no history or lore with them on the plane whatsoever.
Look, alien invaders or not you don't hint at something for two sets, have a set dedicated to them (before BFZ), have a backstory where major characters were involved with them in the past on that very plane which also pushed character motivations recently and currently, are the reason vampires exist on the plane, and go "they are not part of the world whatsoever." From the beginning of Zendikar as we know it the Eldrazi were always part of that plane. Yes, the Eldrazi are not 100% the plane, what Zendikar is all about, nor its entire identity, but you cannot sit there and say they are not part of Zendikar's story just like Disney can't go "Rey Palpatine who?"
As I said earlier:
They were designed with Zendikar in mind and vice versa, but they were always supposed to be separate things. The Eldrazi were never supposed to be part of Zendikar's identity, and while you might put them as part of it, many other players did not and WotC has no reason here to go against their own intentions and the majority of the playerbase for the sake of the minority.
Yes, Zendikar has been affected by the Eldrazi, but that doesn't make the actual Eldrazi themselves hanging around on the plane part of Zendikar's identity. Not everything that appears on Zendikar is a necessary part of the plane's identity. The Eldrazi don't need to be there. Just because the Eldrazi were there once doesn't mean they always need to be there. Things can change. And in fact, they were always going to. The Eldrazi were never going to be on Zendikar forever. Are the Eldrazi part of Innistrad's identity too now that they showed up there as well? Do we need to see Eldrazi next time we visit Innsitrad as well? Mirrodin got taken over by the Phyrexians, does that mean Mirrodin could never be rid of the Phyrexians in the future without it betraying Mirrodin's identity?
Again, I'm not arguing that we need a set filled with them, f*** no, but to try and ignore the Eldrazi existed at all is ignoring part of Zendikar's story. I'm not arguing for the Eldrazi themselves, but arguing for why it is important to acknowledge that they did in fact exist and that a giant battle for a plane took place rather than trying to ignore it because a pair of sets was accepted poorly. I am arguing for a breathing world that feels real and not just trying to ignore something because some wish it hadn't happened.
The good and the bad should always be remembered in a story.
Stop equivocating not including any Eldrazi on cards with ignoring the Eldrazi existed at all. I'm sure you know full well it's entirely possible to avoid the later without doing the former, so stop saying this, because it's dishonest.
Zendikar Rising is very obviously not going to ignore the Eldrazi ever existed, but there won't be any actual Eldrazi.
The point was that the Eldrazi were already eliminated from Zendikar. It's not a decision that's been made with Zendikar Rising, it had already been made in advance. Zendikar Rising was always going to be an Eldrazi free Zendikar even before the bad reaction to the Eldrazi in BFZ.
That's not true. In-lore we know that Eldrazi can exist without their titans, like shown on Vestige of Emrakul and out-of-lore we were told after BFZ/OGW that with the titans being defeated, some Eldrazi remain in some remote corners of Zendikar. That was the plan for the next return. Then BFZ/OGW was a complete disaster (apparently, not playing competitively myself I didn't really mind it but there you go) and wizards completely recoiled in shock and terror like a child burning themselves on the stove and refusing to enter the kitchen anymore.
The real reason why there are no Eldrazi in Zendikar Rising (as in, one or two cards, as opposed to half the set) is because of the power level of BFZ/OGW. It has nothing to do with world-building or how popular eldritch horror is in a vacuum. And personally I hate it when wizards makes world-building or story decisions based on power level. It misses the mark completely and does not help solve the issue. Rather than trying to fight power-creep they just slap a band-aid on it. "No more Eldrazi, we solved BFZ, whoo!"
You simply can't win this debate,, because you've already lost it.
I find this to be a very callous and dismissive thing to say. Why are people allowed to say that there should be no Eldrazi but not that they want to see at least one or two Eldrazi on Zendikar? How would we know what is a majority opinion, if some opinions are told to shut up whenever they appear?
Nobody here is attacking others for not wanting Eldrazi (the music analogy kind of skirted that a little though) so I fail to see why voicing disappointment over a decision some of us disagree with is something that needs to be shut down immediately.
The point was that the Eldrazi were already eliminated from Zendikar. It's not a decision that's been made with Zendikar Rising, it had already been made in advance. Zendikar Rising was always going to be an Eldrazi free Zendikar even before the bad reaction to the Eldrazi in BFZ.
That's not true. In-lore we know that Eldrazi can exist without their titans, like shown on Vestige of Emrakul and out-of-lore we were told after BFZ/OGW that with the titans being defeated, some Eldrazi remain in some remote corners of Zendikar. That was the plan for the next return. Then BFZ/OGW was a complete disaster (apparently, not playing competitively myself I didn't really mind it but there you go) and wizards completely recoiled in shock and terror like a child burning themselves on the stove and refusing to enter the kitchen anymore.
Vestige of Emrakul was around while Emrakul was still around, just not on Zendikar. But Ulamog and Kozilek have been destroyed, or at least, essentially destroyed, and Emrakul has been trapped in a way that presumably stops her spawn as well given that the Hedron prison seemed to have stopped all three of them from using their spawn previously.
As far as I can tell, The lore in BFZ and OGw already established that the Eldrazi spawn are all entirely dependant on the larger titan, so the fates of the three titans in BFZ and SOI blocks already set up for all of the Eldrazi to disappear.
The real reason why there are no Eldrazi in Zendikar Rising (as in, one or two cards, as opposed to half the set) is because of the power level of BFZ/OGW. It has nothing to do with world-building or how popular eldritch horror is in a vacuum.
People in WotC have explicitly stated that they thought it was a mistake to focus on the Eldrazi so much in general, not because of the power level. You can claim it was just about power level and they're lying if you like, but you'll need some fairly good evidence to back that up. And even if that's true, there is plenty of reason regardless for WotC to want to do a new Zendikar block without the Eldrazi because there's plenty of people who just want more Zendikar (and only Zendikar).
After all, (according to WotC people) the Eldrazi were literally added on to the original Zendikar block because of concerns about whether the world could carry three sets in a row, and not part of the original concept for the world.
I also find it somewhat unlikely that they would ever do just one or two Eldrazi cards in a set regardless of any lore context. You wouldn't have just one or two Phyrexians. They're a whole thing. It kind of goes against the point of them to do them like that.
You simply can't win this debate,, because you've already lost it.
I find this to be a very callous and dismissive thing to say. Why are people allowed to say that there should be no Eldrazi but not that they want to see at least one or two Eldrazi on Zendikar? How would we know what is a majority opinion, if some opinions are told to shut up whenever they appear?
Nobody here is attacking others for not wanting Eldrazi (the music analogy kind of skirted that a little though) so I fail to see why voicing disappointment over a decision some of us disagree with is something that needs to be shut down immediately.
No one was told to shut up or that they can't have whatever preferences. But it's worth pointing out how far preferences go, especially when there is a suggestion of an actual problem with it not being done that way.
If people just want to express their preferences they should stop arguing with me when I say that WotC's decision was justified whether those people prefer it or not. You shouldn't debate someone on a point you agree with, if people do indeed agree. And if people aren't agreeing with me on that, then of course I'm going to respond in kind.
We can tell what the majority opinion was about the Eldrazi based on WotC's statements and the general community response you saw around. I don't have actual concrete statistics to look at to prove it, but I don't think the margins look close enough that you particularly need to prove it as far as this discussion is concerned. And even if it wasn't the majority opinion, it was certainly a popular one regardless, to the point that it makes sense for WotC to throw a bone to those people with Zendikar Rising. The pro-Eldrazi-on-Zendikar people already had their block, whether it was particularly good or not. And there will most likely be more Eldrazi on some plane in the future. They did very conspicuously *not* kill off Emrakul, and leave open the possibility of more titans we just haven't seen/heard of yet.
To be clear, I'm not even anti-Eldrazi, or anti-Eldrazi-on-Zendikar.
The fact that so many of you are saying "Zendikar has no identity out side of the Eldrazi is precisely the problem created by the Eldrazi. Moonliteknight gets it, as do others. Zendikar had more identity without the Eldrazi than many other sets/blocks. However once the Eldrazi arrived, they steamrollered all of that flavor and depth with their one loud note. Which is kinda exactly what happened in all limited games and most constructed games during those blocks. It doesnt matter what deck you were running, what strategy you were using, during the midgame an Eldrazi would show up for one side or the other (since they were colorless and everyone had them) and whoever got theirs first simply won. That's why many of you think that the Eldrazi is all there was, because they're pretty much all that mattered.
That's not prog rock that the masses don't understand. That's a top-40's hit from a band that only knows two chords and uses them in all of their songs.
zendikar is not the home plane of the eldrazi because they have gone to way more planes than everybody thinks if you look at the lore they basicly older than the dinosaurs
The question for me is, what is the conflict going to be? Who is the antagonists? Will it be vampires, now that they don't need to team up with others to defeat a common foe? (Also, remember that creepy story where we learned that Zendikar vampires were basically created by Eldrazi? Something wild like that.)
Or maybe it will be a bit of Jace vs. Nissa, him trying to get her to rejoin the guildpact? Or Nahiri, still mad, as some sort of antagonist trying to save/rebuild Zendikar but really causing more harm?
Infernal Reckoning hints at some demon dude being a little angry.
2. We have the vampires (kind of Ulamogs creation) that aren't really natives to Zendikar. We can imaging some kind of tension with the Kor and Humans, here. And well the Eldrazi cult like Ayli.
3. Maybe there isn't a big baddy this time. Just a planes that needs to heal and is creating new forms of life which we can witness.
4. We have Jace there, too. Maybe he try to settle things between Sorin and Nahiri or convince Nissa to join the Gatewatch again. Maybe he will support Nissa with some kind of problem in the plane that we don't know about yet.
Also we’ve been gone from Zendikar for coming up on a year(in universe) now? And without their parent eldrazi there empowering them and refreshing their numbers of course Munda and Tazri are eliminating the spawn. Also The people of Zendikar need to learn that their hero is dead, which is probably one of the reasons Jace is there.
Nahiri is raging and killing anything and everyone, that how she rolls. Leading Eldrazi to Innistrad is among the top evil you can commit to and she had no problems with that.
If Nissa does her job and with Nahiri around for utter vengeance on every living being, chances are the plane gets "cleansed".
Unless we get a suprise Phyrexian Invasion that leads us directly to Return to Mirrodin ... wouldnt even be surprised to get some oil on the plane.
If Sorin and Nahiri get anywhere close to "peace" it would utterly undermine the catastrophic terror they brought upon each other.
They are not really the forgiving type.
Maybe Jace will erase the minds of all of them, including the entire population on the plane, make them forget and "restart" clean.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
The Eldrazi have gone to probably 3 still alive planes other than Zendikar or Innistrad and thats all we can speculate on known information.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Uhuh, no one is claiming that Zendikar isn't healing from the Eldrazi, but the idea that they have all been wiped out and WotC should ignore that they exist(ed) is just silly. Just because BFZ was terrible and Eldrazi got tiring doesn't mean you ignore an active and living world.
Again, I am not arguing for a set filled with them, but a few in the set isn't going to suddenly mean the eldrazi are coming back full force. You fumigating your house to get rid of ants doesn't mean all ants disappear forever.
This is something I've been waiting for. They made colorless mana matters and we haven't seen any of it in near five years. It amazes me that there hasn't been one other card since then that requires colorless mana.
I think this is more likely, like the last Dominaria set, taking the cabal aside, it was just a story of a world healing/healed from the last time we saw it. The only antagonists I can think of are creatures like Yarok, Kalitas and his followers and people like Ayli, if they still exist.
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this sick Signature.
On Arena there's a new symbol- the gold filled circle with a black hollow circle in it. Its the symbol for multicolored cards to sort by in the collection filter / deckbuilder.
This would make a nice new mana symbol to go along with the "must be colorless" symbol that I agree is way underused.
This symbol would be "Must be colored mana, and if multiple symbols appear must be different colored mana than any other mana used for this symbol". Would be useful for multi-modal spells that pay attention to how many/what colors were spent on them, could be Omarth's signature theme, etc.
I’ve seen the gold symbol on rainbow theme in jumpstart as well
and it’s spelled omnath
I would love to see the gold symbol with the circle on offical cards but one problem wouldn’t putting it on legendaries make them five color by default?
That's my point. They're not ignoring the Eldrazi existed.
I don't know what to tell you dude, the Eldrazi are gone from Zendikar. WotC and many players do not want them to be there. You might, but that's not going to change anything. You're just on the losing side here.
We haven't seen it again, because, as what stated, it requires resources to be set aside for a set. That, combined with the issues of confusion it causes with some players, the trickiness in getting it right for design and development, and the need for certain flavour backing—which all make it less likely to be used without a stronger fit.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
As said, the way the lore currently works the Eldrazi are gone. If you wanted to complain about that you missed your window by over four years now. Your ant analogy is flawed. A better analogy is killing someone means their fingers stop doing things, which again is the equivalent for the Eldrazi. They weren't a hive, they were three giant entities with smaller but still connected pieces.
Not sure what the hell you mean by this. I played BFZ and it was terrible. I played RoE and it was great.
I don't care about the Eldrazi specifically just that because people whined like their five that the world of Zendikar loses part of itself. It would be like people getting tired of vampires and they no longer exist on Innistrad. If WotC can just blink things out of existence from worlds then they no longer feel alive and it gives those things a "Why did they exist in the first place if you're just going to get rid of it" sort of feel.
Sorry, but I'd much rather have worlds that feel alive rather than a company removing crap just because some people didn't like a thing.
A card every so often that requires colorless mana, even in ability activations, doesn't need a set strictly made for it. It's not like colorless mana was hard to figure out. If they can bring back phasing with little to no issues on one or two cards they can do it with colorless mana.
Opinions are subjective and yours is a minority one in this case. But the point is that lore-wise the Eldrazi being wiped out was already explained and expressed in the original Battle for Zendikar/Oath of the Gatewatch sets.
You also are rather clearly demonstrating you don't know what makes Zendikar what it is when they've been rather straight forward about the Eldrazi being alien invaders, and the majority of fans of Zendikar complaining about them taking over the set. If they felt like a natural extension of the world then they're not doing what they're supposed to do. It's like saying the Phyrexians were a natural part of Mirrodin when, again, they are explicitly outsiders taking it over and subverting it.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Colourless mana requires support in set in order to be able to consistently activate, and like hybrid mana, it's sheer existence in a set no matter the volume adds complexity such that it's not really worth adding just one or two colorless cards to a set (just like with hybrid). Besides, the whole point of colorless mana costs was to be a whole thing with infrastructure. That was part of the appeal. Like a lot of mechanics, it wants to be built around. That's where much of the fun lies.
Phasing has no support necessary and no inherent build around element. It's as to scry to colourless mana costs are to devotion. They aren't comparable in this regard. The fact that phasing can be used like scry scattered wherever in sets is crucial to it being considered as deciduous, while colourless mana costs are not.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
The point was that the Eldrazi were already eliminated from Zendikar. It's not a decision that's been made with Zendikar Rising, it had already been made in advance. Zendikar Rising was always going to be an Eldrazi free Zendikar even before the bad reaction to the Eldrazi in BFZ.
The Eldrazi were never a Zendikar thing. From the beginning, the Eldrazi were always something separate from the plane they happened to first appear on. They were designed with Zendikar in mind and vice versa, but they were always supposed to be separate things. The Eldrazi were never supposed to be part of Zendikar's identity, and while you might put them as part of it, many other players did not and WotC has no reason here to go against their own intentions and the majority of the playerbase for the sake of the minority.
You simply can't win this debate,, because you've already lost it. Opinions were already heard, the scales were already weighed, plans were already made. Different people want different things and have different expectations from the game, and there's constantly going to be people who miss out on that. And you can't really argue that your wants and expectations are simply more valid than other peoples. Good game design is not all personal taste, but some of it is and that clearly comes into play here. You can't expect to reason people out of not wanting to see any more Eldrazi. At a certain point, people either like it or they don't. And when it comes to the Eldrazi, a lot of people don't. And that's the end of it.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
You're right, they were so not part of Zendikar that the denizens of the world didn't mistake them as their various gods, they didn't have an entire prison system that showed up on near every piece of art for the plane, and there was no history or lore with them on the plane whatsoever.
Look, alien invaders or not you don't hint at something for two sets, have a set dedicated to them (before BFZ), have a backstory where major characters were involved with them in the past on that very plane which also pushed character motivations recently and currently, are the reason vampires exist on the plane, and go "they are not part of the world whatsoever." From the beginning of Zendikar as we know it the Eldrazi were always part of that plane. Yes, the Eldrazi are not 100% the plane, what Zendikar is all about, nor its entire identity, but you cannot sit there and say they are not part of Zendikar's story just like Disney can't go "Rey Palpatine who?"
Again, I'm not arguing that we need a set filled with them, f*** no, but to try and ignore the Eldrazi existed at all is ignoring part of Zendikar's story. I'm not arguing for the Eldrazi themselves, but arguing for why it is important to acknowledge that they did in fact exist and that a giant battle for a plane took place rather than trying to ignore it because a pair of sets was accepted poorly. I am arguing for a breathing world that feels real and not just trying to ignore something because some wish it hadn't happened.
The good and the bad should always be remembered in a story.
As I said earlier:
Yes, Zendikar has been affected by the Eldrazi, but that doesn't make the actual Eldrazi themselves hanging around on the plane part of Zendikar's identity. Not everything that appears on Zendikar is a necessary part of the plane's identity. The Eldrazi don't need to be there. Just because the Eldrazi were there once doesn't mean they always need to be there. Things can change. And in fact, they were always going to. The Eldrazi were never going to be on Zendikar forever. Are the Eldrazi part of Innistrad's identity too now that they showed up there as well? Do we need to see Eldrazi next time we visit Innsitrad as well? Mirrodin got taken over by the Phyrexians, does that mean Mirrodin could never be rid of the Phyrexians in the future without it betraying Mirrodin's identity?
Stop equivocating not including any Eldrazi on cards with ignoring the Eldrazi existed at all. I'm sure you know full well it's entirely possible to avoid the later without doing the former, so stop saying this, because it's dishonest.
Zendikar Rising is very obviously not going to ignore the Eldrazi ever existed, but there won't be any actual Eldrazi.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
That's not true. In-lore we know that Eldrazi can exist without their titans, like shown on Vestige of Emrakul and out-of-lore we were told after BFZ/OGW that with the titans being defeated, some Eldrazi remain in some remote corners of Zendikar. That was the plan for the next return. Then BFZ/OGW was a complete disaster (apparently, not playing competitively myself I didn't really mind it but there you go) and wizards completely recoiled in shock and terror like a child burning themselves on the stove and refusing to enter the kitchen anymore.
The real reason why there are no Eldrazi in Zendikar Rising (as in, one or two cards, as opposed to half the set) is because of the power level of BFZ/OGW. It has nothing to do with world-building or how popular eldritch horror is in a vacuum. And personally I hate it when wizards makes world-building or story decisions based on power level. It misses the mark completely and does not help solve the issue. Rather than trying to fight power-creep they just slap a band-aid on it. "No more Eldrazi, we solved BFZ, whoo!"
I find this to be a very callous and dismissive thing to say. Why are people allowed to say that there should be no Eldrazi but not that they want to see at least one or two Eldrazi on Zendikar? How would we know what is a majority opinion, if some opinions are told to shut up whenever they appear?
Nobody here is attacking others for not wanting Eldrazi (the music analogy kind of skirted that a little though) so I fail to see why voicing disappointment over a decision some of us disagree with is something that needs to be shut down immediately.
Vestige of Emrakul was around while Emrakul was still around, just not on Zendikar. But Ulamog and Kozilek have been destroyed, or at least, essentially destroyed, and Emrakul has been trapped in a way that presumably stops her spawn as well given that the Hedron prison seemed to have stopped all three of them from using their spawn previously.
As far as I can tell, The lore in BFZ and OGw already established that the Eldrazi spawn are all entirely dependant on the larger titan, so the fates of the three titans in BFZ and SOI blocks already set up for all of the Eldrazi to disappear.
People in WotC have explicitly stated that they thought it was a mistake to focus on the Eldrazi so much in general, not because of the power level. You can claim it was just about power level and they're lying if you like, but you'll need some fairly good evidence to back that up. And even if that's true, there is plenty of reason regardless for WotC to want to do a new Zendikar block without the Eldrazi because there's plenty of people who just want more Zendikar (and only Zendikar).
After all, (according to WotC people) the Eldrazi were literally added on to the original Zendikar block because of concerns about whether the world could carry three sets in a row, and not part of the original concept for the world.
I also find it somewhat unlikely that they would ever do just one or two Eldrazi cards in a set regardless of any lore context. You wouldn't have just one or two Phyrexians. They're a whole thing. It kind of goes against the point of them to do them like that.
No one was told to shut up or that they can't have whatever preferences. But it's worth pointing out how far preferences go, especially when there is a suggestion of an actual problem with it not being done that way.
If people just want to express their preferences they should stop arguing with me when I say that WotC's decision was justified whether those people prefer it or not. You shouldn't debate someone on a point you agree with, if people do indeed agree. And if people aren't agreeing with me on that, then of course I'm going to respond in kind.
We can tell what the majority opinion was about the Eldrazi based on WotC's statements and the general community response you saw around. I don't have actual concrete statistics to look at to prove it, but I don't think the margins look close enough that you particularly need to prove it as far as this discussion is concerned. And even if it wasn't the majority opinion, it was certainly a popular one regardless, to the point that it makes sense for WotC to throw a bone to those people with Zendikar Rising. The pro-Eldrazi-on-Zendikar people already had their block, whether it was particularly good or not. And there will most likely be more Eldrazi on some plane in the future. They did very conspicuously *not* kill off Emrakul, and leave open the possibility of more titans we just haven't seen/heard of yet.
To be clear, I'm not even anti-Eldrazi, or anti-Eldrazi-on-Zendikar.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice