WotC's decision to draw attention to these cards is in itself part of their fight against racism. They're not just pointing out the existence of these cards - sure someone can still play them - they are saying: Playing with these cards is wrong; if you play with these cards you should consider their connotations and consider that playing them is wrong; playing with these cards can hurt people. They are acknowledging a systemic racism that gives negative power to text like "Destroy all black creatures". This is a step in the direction of being actively anti-racist - and being actively anti-racist is what we should strive to be. This should not and cannot and is not a debate.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
I mean to be fair, in the last thread someone literally said that racism has never existed and still doesn't exist. So there's a good reason that thread needed to be locked. Censorship or not.
No. You don’t impede, stymie, or outright censor a necessary conversation just because there are bad faith actors. There will always be bad faith actors, and locking or deleting threads only perpetuates the status quo.
I adamantly disagree. If your player base is actively hurting marginalized communities in the game then they absolutely should be shut down. There's no productive conversation from it. Period.
The problem is that I learned nothimg from this which actually helps me fight racism.
If a person calls another person a rock-throwing devil I would have recognized that as an insult. It is a pretty obvious one.
The only people who gain something from that knowledge are literally the racists how just found a new toy to play with.
Also I am not entirely sure if I am your ally. I just want to treat all people with common decency regardless of who they are.
Aren’t there grades of wrongdoing, though? There are harsher penalties for hate crimes, even if both actions are illegal. There are many insults I can sling at someone that won’t rise (sink?) to the same level as the n-word, and the different reactions they provoke will be correspondingly disproportionate. You might recognize an insult, but what’s the threshold for you to stand up and risk your personal wellbeing for a stranger?
I don't think so. Insults are insults. I do not apply a grading scale. You are saying something to hurt another person whst your are saying is of less importance. You could use nice words to say harsh things.
That being said I am European so there might be diffrent culturally sensibility at work. For example, one of the harshest insults in my country translates to "victim". Putting literally insult to injury.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
I mean to be fair, in the last thread someone literally said that racism has never existed and still doesn't exist. So there's a good reason that thread needed to be locked. Censorship or not.
No. You don’t impede, stymie, or outright censor a necessary conversation just because there are bad faith actors. There will always be bad faith actors, and locking or deleting threads only perpetuates the status quo.
I adamantly disagree. If your player base is actively hurting marginalized communities in the game then they absolutely should be shut down. There's no productive conversation from it. Period.
Sure, but we’re talking about promoting an actual dialogue here, not letting an echo chamber go unchecked. There’s enough responsible conversation going on in just this thread to be cautiously optimistic, so again, no. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.
No longer the place for conversation, sadly. The mods have been hard at work, actively censoring this topic.
It wasn't that they were censoring the topic, the replies had just devolved into a bunch of whining and personal attacks. As with most nuanced conversations, the internet rarely stay s a forum for productive discussion for a long period of time.
I’m actually fresh off a week-long ban for mentioning ‘privilege.’ That’s outright censorship.
Unpopular speech and opinions can be dangerous, apparently.
I didn't even get to read that thread before it was locked, which given the circumstances left me with more questions and even more confusion than when I first read the news. And isn't it an interesting coincidence that the moderator who locked that thread also just so happens to be from Minneapolis?
Does one really need more evidence to prove a politically motivated bias to stifle the debate on the topic of art censorship (which is in itself ironic as an important topic that should always be left open for debate)?
Was it only locked because that thread wasn't specifically created to discuss art censorship in general, but those particular cards?
Even if that were the case, why is it so inappropriate when the conversation evolved and stays within the realm of that topic, how people feel about those cards, their censorship, or how the game and collections are indirectly affected by politics which compromise a creator's artistic vision?
It's reasonable to assume that such an arguably whimsical or arbitrary albeit interestingly timed decision would invoke an emotional response from all sides. Why lock that thread when a new one being generated on the topic was virtually inevitable?
Should all art (Magic related or otherwise) moving forward only be created as "safe art", which is to say art that can't possibly offend anyone for any reason whatsoever? Who should be the judge for what is or isn't possibly deemed offensive? Who can possibly be qualified and well enough versed in every culture on earth (and beyond, since we obviously wouldn't want to offend extraterrestrials with our risky art lest there could potentially be disastrous consequences) to know whether something written or drawn on a card may inadvertently insult a particular demographic?
Hasn't it been proven throughout human history that oftentimes the best and most famous art is that which is inherently controversial or avant-garde, perhaps even blasphemous?
Some people say that all pornography is inherently misogynistic and harmful, but can we ever prove that or all agree that's a fact and not a matter of personal opinion?
Isn't the whole purpose of creating art in any form to encourage critical analysis and discussion on important topics, differences of opinion, and to freely express oneself without creative restriction, or having to worry about the social judgments of what future generations may consider offensive or politically incorrect?
How can any artist ever truly express how they feel when they always feel pressured or forced to limit themselves and write, sing, or color within the lines of what may or may not be considered socially acceptable elsewhere or in the future?
If enough people find red offensive because it remind them of communism, will red cards eventually be shifted to purple which is more neutral?
How were these particular cards ever harming anyone?
Crusade never even saw play because it was outclassed by honor of the pure over a decade ago, and the others were so niche that barely anyone even owns them let alone plays them.
How were those cards causing anyone to feel excluded, antagonized, or ruining anyone's experience playing the game?
Nobody was forced to look at these cards, play with them or even play against them.
If someone had crusade in their deck and you were so offended by the image, what was to stop you from just covering the art or ending the game?
Was the very existence of those cards really causing someone that much personal anxiety?
If so, this might be a symptom of a much more deep-seeded emotional impulse control problem or medical condition.
Freaking out over a trivial piece of cardboard, which is literally nothing more than a game piece, and was never designed with the intent to be a political statement or offend is NOT a normal reaction or response.
Also, why are all the knights printed with the word Crusader in their names not deemed equally as offensive as the card Crusade itself?
This is a strange dual standard to say the least.
Since Hasbro also has many board games under their umbrella (some of which I love more than others), should all board games moving forward never have pieces which are either white, brown, or black as to not encourage conflicts between units/players/peoples represented by those colors because of the apparent subconscious implications of encouraging real world violence between groups or individuals from such denominations. At what point are game objects and emotions being muddled and conflated more than they need to be?
Should the game Axis and Allies be banned from store shelves because one can play and win as a faction which was dedicated to racist ideology?
Wouldn't that imply the game glorifies evil? Of course not.
Are Tarantino movies inherently racist too because he as a white man has occasionally used the N word in his own dialog?
Were Voltaire's opinions of Jews and other religions inherently racist, or simply enlightened criticism of superstition?
(I happen to be Jewish and wouldn't support taking down statues of him in France, because taking down statues which is essentially damaging other people's property and destroying art is never the answer and not something an angry mob of understandably disgruntled individuals are legally allowed to do unilaterally. Instead, these depictions and monuments (which don't necessarily have to mean they're glorifying or even validating that individual's acts whom they represent) can be amended with informative plaques, and used to better educate people so future generations don't forget about both the positive and disgraceful things people did in their time which have since become part of our collective history.
In this world there are people who create and people who destroy.
Most of us do both, and some people revel in destruction, perhaps because it makes them feel righteous, vindicated, and free.
What I do know for certain is that just because someone else created art which is controversial or you find offense, that doesn't give you or me the right to damage it. Critique it all you want (as we should!), but art which is unique and created by another person cost them time, has a right to exist, be preserved, and enjoyed by others who might have a different opinion or an appreciation for that art on a level that perhaps you and I cannot fully understand, unfortunately because we may be too focused on certain offensive elements of that art, or our own interpretation of the meaning behind that art.
*sigh*
Why can't games and art simply remain those things without people trying to dissect them for some hidden meaning which often isn't there so they can expunge them and feel self-righteous about taking away enjoyment from others?
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
-Evelyn Beatrice Hall
WotC's decision to draw attention to these cards is in itself part of their fight against racism. They're not just pointing out the existence of these cards - sure someone can still play them - they are saying: Playing with these cards is wrong; if you play with these cards you should consider their connotations and consider that playing them is wrong; playing with these cards can hurt people. They are acknowledging a systemic racism that gives negative power to text like "Destroy all black creatures". This is a step in the direction of being actively anti-racist - and being actively anti-racist is what we should strive to be. This should not and cannot and is not a debate.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
To more directly answer your question: there’s no card titled Holocaust, but if there was it should absolutely be banned right now.
WotC's decision to draw attention to these cards is in itself part of their fight against racism. They're not just pointing out the existence of these cards - sure someone can still play them - they are saying: Playing with these cards is wrong; if you play with these cards you should consider their connotations and consider that playing them is wrong; playing with these cards can hurt people. They are acknowledging a systemic racism that gives negative power to text like "Destroy all black creatures". This is a step in the direction of being actively anti-racist - and being actively anti-racist is what we should strive to be. This should not and cannot and is not a debate.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
Thats not what the post I quoted said though.
I want to see that this won't turn into a Triumph of Ferocity/Triumph of Cruelty situation where people thought the first was sexist but the second not.
WotC's decision to draw attention to these cards is in itself part of their fight against racism. They're not just pointing out the existence of these cards - sure someone can still play them - they are saying: Playing with these cards is wrong; if you play with these cards you should consider their connotations and consider that playing them is wrong; playing with these cards can hurt people. They are acknowledging a systemic racism that gives negative power to text like "Destroy all black creatures". This is a step in the direction of being actively anti-racist - and being actively anti-racist is what we should strive to be. This should not and cannot and is not a debate.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
Actually that is a good point. Even though Ethnic Cleansing was not the first thing that jumped to mind when reading the card given the good vs evil connotation and the depicted demons/devils.
Honestly early Wizards must have had some sickos in their ranks to think of these stuff.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
The problem is that I learned nothimg from this which actually helps me fight racism.
If a person calls another person a rock-throwing devil I would have recognized that as an insult. It is a pretty obvious one.
The only people who gain something from that knowledge are literally the racists how just found a new toy to play with.
Also I am not entirely sure if I am your ally. I just want to treat all people with common decency regardless of who they are.
Aren’t there grades of wrongdoing, though? There are harsher penalties for hate crimes, even if both actions are illegal. There are many insults I can sling at someone that won’t rise (sink?) to the same level as the n-word, and the different reactions they provoke will be correspondingly disproportionate. You might recognize an insult, but what’s the threshold for you to stand up and risk your personal wellbeing for a stranger?
I don't think so. Insults are insults. I do not apply a grading scale. You are saying something to hurt another person whst your are saying is of less importance. You could use nice words to say harsh things.
That being said I am European so there might be diffrent culturally sensibility at work. For example, one of the harshest insults in my country translates to "victim". Putting literally insult to injury.
You’re missing the point. These aren’t just insults, they’re subordinating language. They promote and reinforce social stratification, the repressive effects of which have been mounting for hundreds of years.
WotC's decision to draw attention to these cards is in itself part of their fight against racism. They're not just pointing out the existence of these cards - sure someone can still play them - they are saying: Playing with these cards is wrong; if you play with these cards you should consider their connotations and consider that playing them is wrong; playing with these cards can hurt people. They are acknowledging a systemic racism that gives negative power to text like "Destroy all black creatures". This is a step in the direction of being actively anti-racist - and being actively anti-racist is what we should strive to be. This should not and cannot and is not a debate.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
Actually that is a good point. Even though Ethnic Cleansing was not the first thing that jumped to mind when reading the card given the good vs evil connotation and the depicted demons/devils.
Honestly early Wizards must have had some sickos in their ranks to think of these stuff.
Its probably more a reference to old Pen and Paper fantasy; where the Paladin cleanses the land of all the foul imps, abominations, demons, devils, undead (especially). Necromancy, Devilry, dark magic and the like are all represented by the colour Black which is traditionally negative in Western culture and mythology; especially Celtic!
WotC's decision to draw attention to these cards is in itself part of their fight against racism. They're not just pointing out the existence of these cards - sure someone can still play them - they are saying: Playing with these cards is wrong; if you play with these cards you should consider their connotations and consider that playing them is wrong; playing with these cards can hurt people. They are acknowledging a systemic racism that gives negative power to text like "Destroy all black creatures". This is a step in the direction of being actively anti-racist - and being actively anti-racist is what we should strive to be. This should not and cannot and is not a debate.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
Actually that is a good point. Even though Ethnic Cleansing was not the first thing that jumped to mind when reading the card given the good vs evil connotation and the depicted demons/devils.
Honestly early Wizards must have had some sickos in their ranks to think of these stuff.
Its probably more a reference to old Pen and Paper fantasy; where the Paladin cleanses the land of all the foul imps, abominations, demons, devils, undead (especially). Necromancy, Devilry, dark magic and the like are all represented by the colour Black which is traditionally negative in Western culture and mythology; especially Celtic!
Which makes it all the more tragic when something benign is coopted by toxic ideology. There’s no redeeming the swastika, the “okay” hand gesture is being flashed by cops in riot gear now, and this... paladins against dark forces is cool and all, until that guy plays Cleanse at an EDH table, makes an off color joke, and the owners of your LGS are too timid or uncaring to do anything about it. Tell me something similarly toxic has never happened at your LGS so I can come give them my money.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
Actually that is a good point. Even though Ethnic Cleansing was not the first thing that jumped to mind when reading the card given the good vs evil connotation and the depicted demons/devils.
Honestly early Wizards must have had some sickos in their ranks to think of these stuff.
Its probably more a reference to old Pen and Paper fantasy; where the Paladin cleanses the land of all the foul imps, abominations, demons, devils, undead (especially). Necromancy, Devilry, dark magic and the like are all represented by the colour Black which is traditionally negative in Western culture and mythology; especially Celtic!
Which makes it all the more tragic when something benign is coopted by toxic ideology. There’s no redeeming the swastika, the “okay” hand gesture is being flashed by cops in riot gear now, and this... paladins against dark forces is cool and all, until that guy plays Cleanse at an EDH table, makes an off color joke, and the owners of your LGS are too timid or uncaring to do anything about it. Tell me something similarly toxic has never happened at your LGS so I can come give them my money.
Now a debate about weak LGS owners who won't kick out someone trying to be racist on purpose sure, cause thats a problem. Western Mythology isn't.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
Actually that is a good point. Even though Ethnic Cleansing was not the first thing that jumped to mind when reading the card given the good vs evil connotation and the depicted demons/devils.
Honestly early Wizards must have had some sickos in their ranks to think of these stuff.
Its probably more a reference to old Pen and Paper fantasy; where the Paladin cleanses the land of all the foul imps, abominations, demons, devils, undead (especially). Necromancy, Devilry, dark magic and the like are all represented by the colour Black which is traditionally negative in Western culture and mythology; especially Celtic!
Which makes it all the more tragic when something benign is coopted by toxic ideology. There’s no redeeming the swastika, the “okay” hand gesture is being flashed by cops in riot gear now, and this... paladins against dark forces is cool and all, until that guy plays Cleanse at an EDH table, makes an off color joke, and the owners of your LGS are too timid or uncaring to do anything about it. Tell me something similarly toxic has never happened at your LGS so I can come give them my money.
The pen and paper fantasy was by the way what was in my mind. Ethic cleaning wasn't even close to my association when I read the card. Which is why the banning left me so puzzled and confused.
Honestly I crinch every time I hear or see the word toxic. That is so close to Nazi language that it makes me really uncomfortable. They would often describe people as vermin, parasites and toxic to dehumanize them.
But then again it is probably diffrent cultural sensibility.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
No longer the place for conversation, sadly. The mods have been hard at work, actively censoring this topic.
it's cause every thread about these types of topics descends into an uncleanable ***** storm. i don't blame the mods even if there are many things i'd like to say about the topic.
Ethnic Cleansing was not the first thing that jumped to mind
Not to your mind ( In your defense not to mine either) but it's not a big jump if you've interacted with/ come in contact with people who use the term ethnic cleansing.
I don't think so. Insults are insults. That being said I am European so there might be diffrent culturally sensibility at work. For example, one of the harshest insults in my country translates to "victim". Putting literally insult to injury.
So you use grading "harshest" insult.
But yes there is different culurally senisbility some things are harsher to some people. I tend to agree with Flossed beaver though some of the "insults" are subordinating language.
As a fellow German (and a half black one at that) I don't think "opfer"(Victim) is particularly harsh nor do I find the term "Polake/Kanacke" (Degrading terms for Polish/Turkish people) that harsh. But the first one insults the person the second one implies that they are lesser for just being from those places. Thats why even If I think they are not that harsh they are more problematic.
No longer the place for conversation, sadly. The mods have been hard at work, actively censoring this topic.
it's cause every thread about these types of topics descends into an uncleanable ***** storm. i don't blame the mods even if there are many things i'd like to say about the topic.
A sincere, if misguided, question was asked by someone politically relevant (the mayor of Petal?) a few weeks back, when the protests began in earnest: why would someone want to become a cop?
The right answer to that question is “to make a contribution to the community they care about.” The wrong answer to that question is “to wield power and authority over others.” A good mod understands that some days are more difficult than others, and some topics require more time, effort, and energy to police for our mutual benefit. If allowing this conversation - and maybe even participating in it - is too much, then perhaps they should rethink their prerogatives. In the interim, it’s time to stop feeling sorry for those in positions of power and authority over us, because it’s just not being reciprocated.
No longer the place for conversation, sadly. The mods have been hard at work, actively censoring this topic.
it's cause every thread about these types of topics descends into an uncleanable ***** storm. i don't blame the mods even if there are many things i'd like to say about the topic.
I get where you're coming from, but that's on us as a community and the mod team as the stewards of the community. We can and should be better at developing a culture of nuanced and respectful dialogue, and I'm of the belief that just locking every thread that might be more challenging to keep on track is antithetical to developing a better culture here.
It's part of what I believe WotC wants, the fandom as a whole and individual communities that make up the fandom addressing issues of racism and bigotry.
WotC's decision to draw attention to these cards is in itself part of their fight against racism. They're not just pointing out the existence of these cards - sure someone can still play them - they are saying: Playing with these cards is wrong; if you play with these cards you should consider their connotations and consider that playing them is wrong; playing with these cards can hurt people. They are acknowledging a systemic racism that gives negative power to text like "Destroy all black creatures". This is a step in the direction of being actively anti-racist - and being actively anti-racist is what we should strive to be. This should not and cannot and is not a debate.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
To more directly answer your question: there’s no card titled Holocaust, but if there was it should absolutely be banned right now.
Poor argument.
False dichotomy / equivalence.
The word "cleanse" existed long before it was adopted for the phrase "ethnic cleansing".
The act may be old, but the term itself is rather new.
The definition of cleanse using Google is:
Verb: make (something, especially the skin) thoroughly clean.
Noun: a process or period of time during which a person attempts to rid the body of substances regarded as toxic or unhealthy, typically by consuming only water or other liquids.
Holocaust was a word specifically created as a result of what happened to describe that specific horrific situation and historical event. Genocide may be a similar word, but is not even a synonym as this means something very precise, and it has no other meaning.
This reminds me of a legal case over a license plate which said "assimil8" along with a Star Trek Borg sticker to clarify the reference, which someone who saw it took offense to because they misinterpreted it as promoting assimilation of indigenous peoples, a sensitive topic for sure, but completely unrelated to the purpose or intent of what that license plate was trying to promote (Star Trek, even though Borg ideology is itself comparable to communism, which is besides the point). But I digress.
My point is that "Cleanse" is not an offense word by nature in a vacuum.
99.9% of words require context to give them proper, accurate meaning, and holocaust certainly isn't among them.
It means what it means on its own or accompanied by other words before or after, whereas cleanse can clearly be used in many ways, the great majority of which are never offensive or meant to cause discomfort to the reader.
WotC's decision to draw attention to these cards is in itself part of their fight against racism. They're not just pointing out the existence of these cards - sure someone can still play them - they are saying: Playing with these cards is wrong; if you play with these cards you should consider their connotations and consider that playing them is wrong; playing with these cards can hurt people. They are acknowledging a systemic racism that gives negative power to text like "Destroy all black creatures". This is a step in the direction of being actively anti-racist - and being actively anti-racist is what we should strive to be. This should not and cannot and is not a debate.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
To more directly answer your question: there’s no card titled Holocaust, but if there was it should absolutely be banned right now.
Poor argument.
False dichotomy / equivalence.
The word "cleanse" existed long before it was adopted for the phrase "ethnic cleansing".
The act may be old, but the term itself it rather new.
The definition of cleanse using Google is:
Verb: make (something, especially the skin) thoroughly clean.
Noun: a process or period of time during which a person attempts to rid the body of substances regarded as toxic or unhealthy, typically by consuming only water or other liquids.
Holocaust was a word specifically created as a result of what happened to describe that specific horrific situation and historical event. Genocide may be a similar word, but is not even a synonym as this means something very precise, and it has no other meaning.
This reminds me of a legal case over a license plate which said "assimil8" along with a Star Trek Borg sticker to clarify the reference, which someone who saw it took offense to because the misinterpreted it as promoting assimilation of indigenous peoples, a sensitive topic for sure, but completely unrelated to the purpose or intent of what that license plate was trying to promote (Star Trek, even though Borg ideology is itself comparable to communism, which is besides the point). But I digress.
My point is that "Cleanse" is not an offense word by nature in a vacuum.
99.9% of words require context to give them proper, accurate meaning, and holocaust certainly isn't among them.
It means what it means on its own or accompanied by other words before or after, whereas cleanse can clearly be used in many ways, the great majority of which are never offensive or meant to cause discomfort to the reader.
Cleanse: kill all of [x].
That’s Magic’s context; when I googled cleanse and then clicked “more definitions” (immediately below the definitions you posted) I got this:
• rid (a person, place, or thing) of something seen as unpleasant, unwanted, or defiling.
"the mission to cleanse the nation of subversives"
You’re right, we don’t live in a vacuum, so that’s not how I see the world.
My point was that "Cleanse" is not an offense word by nature.
99.9% of words require context to give them proper, accurate meaning, and holocaust certainly isn't among them.
It means what it means on its own or accompanied by other words before or after, whereas cleanse can clearly be used in many ways, the great majority of which are never offensive or meant cause discomfort.
Yeah an that context seems to be the problem cleanse on it's own wouldn't be a problem (seePlanar cleansing) the context of cleansing with the black creatures might be. Sure I didn't make that connection either but it's not a big jump. Just because not everyone makes the connection a card named tower crusher which is a 9/11 would still be problematic because people will make that connection.
I'd argue the Reparations card is more offensive than Cleanse; practically every people have experienced some form of ethnic cleansing through history.
My point was that "Cleanse" is not an offense word by nature.
99.9% of words require context to give them proper, accurate meaning, and holocaust certainly isn't among them.
It means what it means on its own or accompanied by other words before or after, whereas cleanse can clearly be used in many ways, the great majority of which are never offensive or meant cause discomfort.
Yeah an that context seems to be the problem cleanse on it's own wouldn't be a problem (seePlanar cleansing) the context of cleansing with the black creatures might be. Sure I didn't make that connection either but it's not a big jump. Just because not everyone makes the connection a card named tower crusher which is a 9/11 would still be problematic because people will make that connection.
Cleanse 2BB
Sorcery
All White creatures in play are destroyed.
Have you considered the possibility that's the intent?
Perhaps there are those among the hierarchy who don't want change.
People often fear change because it disrupts what they've been accustomed to and find comfortable and familiar.
As something of a preservationist, I myself have an aversion to change at times when it happens quickly or harms tradition, but it's something we often have to accept as an inevitability, something necessary which is an essential component of creating progress, stronger social interactions, and better productivity.
Ethnic Cleansing was not the first thing that jumped to mind
Not to your mind ( In your defense not to mine either) but it's not a big jump if you've interacted with/ come in contact with people who use the term ethnic cleansing.
I don't think so. Insults are insults. That being said I am European so there might be diffrent culturally sensibility at work. For example, one of the harshest insults in my country translates to "victim". Putting literally insult to injury.
So you use grading "harshest" insult.
But yes there is different culurally senisbility some things are harsher to some people. I tend to agree with Flossed beaver though some of the "insults" are subordinating language.
As a fellow German (and a half black one at that) I don't think "opfer"(Victim) is particularly harsh nor do I find the term "Polake/Kanacke" (Degrading terms for Polish/Turkish people) that harsh. But the first one insults the person the second one implies that they are lesser for just being from those places. Thats why even If I think they are not that harsh they are more problematic.
Yeah there is some grading, but it all stays in the same ball park. Could be that Germans are naturally harsh.
Because I would be hard pressed to find any insult in German that would cause the same reaction as the n-word would for Americans.
And the reason I find Opfer harsh is that is makes you a lesser person because you were victimized, which is pretty f***ed up in my book.
And I agree Polake or Kanacke are both stupid insults for the reason you pointed out. But ultimately intend is all that matters not the words you use.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
I honestly fear that this is exacly what is happening. Before this I didn't know that rock-throwing devils was a slur against Arabs. Now my racist vocabulary has increased and I don't think that is a good thing at all.
It is a good thing to be aware of, because it means you are educated on something not to say and you can identify someone else's intentions if they say it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Does that mean "Destroy all White creatures" should be removed?
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
I adamantly disagree. If your player base is actively hurting marginalized communities in the game then they absolutely should be shut down. There's no productive conversation from it. Period.
I don't think so. Insults are insults. I do not apply a grading scale. You are saying something to hurt another person whst your are saying is of less importance. You could use nice words to say harsh things.
That being said I am European so there might be diffrent culturally sensibility at work. For example, one of the harshest insults in my country translates to "victim". Putting literally insult to injury.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Sure, but we’re talking about promoting an actual dialogue here, not letting an echo chamber go unchecked. There’s enough responsible conversation going on in just this thread to be cautiously optimistic, so again, no. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Unpopular speech and opinions can be dangerous, apparently.
I didn't even get to read that thread before it was locked, which given the circumstances left me with more questions and even more confusion than when I first read the news. And isn't it an interesting coincidence that the moderator who locked that thread also just so happens to be from Minneapolis?
Does one really need more evidence to prove a politically motivated bias to stifle the debate on the topic of art censorship (which is in itself ironic as an important topic that should always be left open for debate)?
Was it only locked because that thread wasn't specifically created to discuss art censorship in general, but those particular cards?
Even if that were the case, why is it so inappropriate when the conversation evolved and stays within the realm of that topic, how people feel about those cards, their censorship, or how the game and collections are indirectly affected by politics which compromise a creator's artistic vision?
It's reasonable to assume that such an arguably whimsical or arbitrary albeit interestingly timed decision would invoke an emotional response from all sides. Why lock that thread when a new one being generated on the topic was virtually inevitable?
Should all art (Magic related or otherwise) moving forward only be created as "safe art", which is to say art that can't possibly offend anyone for any reason whatsoever? Who should be the judge for what is or isn't possibly deemed offensive? Who can possibly be qualified and well enough versed in every culture on earth (and beyond, since we obviously wouldn't want to offend extraterrestrials with our risky art lest there could potentially be disastrous consequences) to know whether something written or drawn on a card may inadvertently insult a particular demographic?
Hasn't it been proven throughout human history that oftentimes the best and most famous art is that which is inherently controversial or avant-garde, perhaps even blasphemous?
Some people say that all pornography is inherently misogynistic and harmful, but can we ever prove that or all agree that's a fact and not a matter of personal opinion?
Isn't the whole purpose of creating art in any form to encourage critical analysis and discussion on important topics, differences of opinion, and to freely express oneself without creative restriction, or having to worry about the social judgments of what future generations may consider offensive or politically incorrect?
How can any artist ever truly express how they feel when they always feel pressured or forced to limit themselves and write, sing, or color within the lines of what may or may not be considered socially acceptable elsewhere or in the future?
If enough people find red offensive because it remind them of communism, will red cards eventually be shifted to purple which is more neutral?
How were these particular cards ever harming anyone?
Crusade never even saw play because it was outclassed by honor of the pure over a decade ago, and the others were so niche that barely anyone even owns them let alone plays them.
How were those cards causing anyone to feel excluded, antagonized, or ruining anyone's experience playing the game?
Nobody was forced to look at these cards, play with them or even play against them.
If someone had crusade in their deck and you were so offended by the image, what was to stop you from just covering the art or ending the game?
Was the very existence of those cards really causing someone that much personal anxiety?
If so, this might be a symptom of a much more deep-seeded emotional impulse control problem or medical condition.
Freaking out over a trivial piece of cardboard, which is literally nothing more than a game piece, and was never designed with the intent to be a political statement or offend is NOT a normal reaction or response.
Also, why are all the knights printed with the word Crusader in their names not deemed equally as offensive as the card Crusade itself?
This is a strange dual standard to say the least.
Since Hasbro also has many board games under their umbrella (some of which I love more than others), should all board games moving forward never have pieces which are either white, brown, or black as to not encourage conflicts between units/players/peoples represented by those colors because of the apparent subconscious implications of encouraging real world violence between groups or individuals from such denominations. At what point are game objects and emotions being muddled and conflated more than they need to be?
Should the game Axis and Allies be banned from store shelves because one can play and win as a faction which was dedicated to racist ideology?
Wouldn't that imply the game glorifies evil? Of course not.
Are Tarantino movies inherently racist too because he as a white man has occasionally used the N word in his own dialog?
Were Voltaire's opinions of Jews and other religions inherently racist, or simply enlightened criticism of superstition?
(I happen to be Jewish and wouldn't support taking down statues of him in France, because taking down statues which is essentially damaging other people's property and destroying art is never the answer and not something an angry mob of understandably disgruntled individuals are legally allowed to do unilaterally. Instead, these depictions and monuments (which don't necessarily have to mean they're glorifying or even validating that individual's acts whom they represent) can be amended with informative plaques, and used to better educate people so future generations don't forget about both the positive and disgraceful things people did in their time which have since become part of our collective history.
In this world there are people who create and people who destroy.
Most of us do both, and some people revel in destruction, perhaps because it makes them feel righteous, vindicated, and free.
What I do know for certain is that just because someone else created art which is controversial or you find offense, that doesn't give you or me the right to damage it. Critique it all you want (as we should!), but art which is unique and created by another person cost them time, has a right to exist, be preserved, and enjoyed by others who might have a different opinion or an appreciation for that art on a level that perhaps you and I cannot fully understand, unfortunately because we may be too focused on certain offensive elements of that art, or our own interpretation of the meaning behind that art.
*sigh*
Why can't games and art simply remain those things without people trying to dissect them for some hidden meaning which often isn't there so they can expunge them and feel self-righteous about taking away enjoyment from others?
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
-Evelyn Beatrice Hall
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
Each person who focuses solely on the text is ignoring the context of a word like “cleanse,” which is unredeemable no matter which color(s) it references. Ethnic cleansing exists, presently and historically, well outside the bounds of the current movements.
To more directly answer your question: there’s no card titled Holocaust, but if there was it should absolutely be banned right now.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Thats not what the post I quoted said though.
I want to see that this won't turn into a Triumph of Ferocity/Triumph of Cruelty situation where people thought the first was sexist but the second not.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
Actually that is a good point. Even though Ethnic Cleansing was not the first thing that jumped to mind when reading the card given the good vs evil connotation and the depicted demons/devils.
Honestly early Wizards must have had some sickos in their ranks to think of these stuff.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
You’re missing the point. These aren’t just insults, they’re subordinating language. They promote and reinforce social stratification, the repressive effects of which have been mounting for hundreds of years.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Its probably more a reference to old Pen and Paper fantasy; where the Paladin cleanses the land of all the foul imps, abominations, demons, devils, undead (especially). Necromancy, Devilry, dark magic and the like are all represented by the colour Black which is traditionally negative in Western culture and mythology; especially Celtic!
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
Which makes it all the more tragic when something benign is coopted by toxic ideology. There’s no redeeming the swastika, the “okay” hand gesture is being flashed by cops in riot gear now, and this... paladins against dark forces is cool and all, until that guy plays Cleanse at an EDH table, makes an off color joke, and the owners of your LGS are too timid or uncaring to do anything about it. Tell me something similarly toxic has never happened at your LGS so I can come give them my money.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Now a debate about weak LGS owners who won't kick out someone trying to be racist on purpose sure, cause thats a problem. Western Mythology isn't.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
The pen and paper fantasy was by the way what was in my mind. Ethic cleaning wasn't even close to my association when I read the card. Which is why the banning left me so puzzled and confused.
Honestly I crinch every time I hear or see the word toxic. That is so close to Nazi language that it makes me really uncomfortable. They would often describe people as vermin, parasites and toxic to dehumanize them.
But then again it is probably diffrent cultural sensibility.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
it's cause every thread about these types of topics descends into an uncleanable ***** storm. i don't blame the mods even if there are many things i'd like to say about the topic.
Not to your mind ( In your defense not to mine either) but it's not a big jump if you've interacted with/ come in contact with people who use the term ethnic cleansing.
So you use grading "harshest" insult.
But yes there is different culurally senisbility some things are harsher to some people. I tend to agree with Flossed beaver though some of the "insults" are subordinating language.
As a fellow German (and a half black one at that) I don't think "opfer"(Victim) is particularly harsh nor do I find the term "Polake/Kanacke" (Degrading terms for Polish/Turkish people) that harsh. But the first one insults the person the second one implies that they are lesser for just being from those places. Thats why even If I think they are not that harsh they are more problematic.
A sincere, if misguided, question was asked by someone politically relevant (the mayor of Petal?) a few weeks back, when the protests began in earnest: why would someone want to become a cop?
The right answer to that question is “to make a contribution to the community they care about.” The wrong answer to that question is “to wield power and authority over others.” A good mod understands that some days are more difficult than others, and some topics require more time, effort, and energy to police for our mutual benefit. If allowing this conversation - and maybe even participating in it - is too much, then perhaps they should rethink their prerogatives. In the interim, it’s time to stop feeling sorry for those in positions of power and authority over us, because it’s just not being reciprocated.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
I get where you're coming from, but that's on us as a community and the mod team as the stewards of the community. We can and should be better at developing a culture of nuanced and respectful dialogue, and I'm of the belief that just locking every thread that might be more challenging to keep on track is antithetical to developing a better culture here.
It's part of what I believe WotC wants, the fandom as a whole and individual communities that make up the fandom addressing issues of racism and bigotry.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Poor argument.
False dichotomy / equivalence.
The word "cleanse" existed long before it was adopted for the phrase "ethnic cleansing".
The act may be old, but the term itself is rather new.
The definition of cleanse using Google is:
Verb: make (something, especially the skin) thoroughly clean.
Noun: a process or period of time during which a person attempts to rid the body of substances regarded as toxic or unhealthy, typically by consuming only water or other liquids.
Holocaust was a word specifically created as a result of what happened to describe that specific horrific situation and historical event. Genocide may be a similar word, but is not even a synonym as this means something very precise, and it has no other meaning.
This reminds me of a legal case over a license plate which said "assimil8" along with a Star Trek Borg sticker to clarify the reference, which someone who saw it took offense to because they misinterpreted it as promoting assimilation of indigenous peoples, a sensitive topic for sure, but completely unrelated to the purpose or intent of what that license plate was trying to promote (Star Trek, even though Borg ideology is itself comparable to communism, which is besides the point). But I digress.
My point is that "Cleanse" is not an offense word by nature in a vacuum.
99.9% of words require context to give them proper, accurate meaning, and holocaust certainly isn't among them.
It means what it means on its own or accompanied by other words before or after, whereas cleanse can clearly be used in many ways, the great majority of which are never offensive or meant to cause discomfort to the reader.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
Cleanse: kill all of [x].
That’s Magic’s context; when I googled cleanse and then clicked “more definitions” (immediately below the definitions you posted) I got this:
• rid (a person, place, or thing) of something seen as unpleasant, unwanted, or defiling.
"the mission to cleanse the nation of subversives"
You’re right, we don’t live in a vacuum, so that’s not how I see the world.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Yeah an that context seems to be the problem cleanse on it's own wouldn't be a problem (seePlanar cleansing) the context of cleansing with the black creatures might be. Sure I didn't make that connection either but it's not a big jump. Just because not everyone makes the connection a card named tower crusher which is a 9/11 would still be problematic because people will make that connection.
Cleanse 2BB
Sorcery
All White creatures in play are destroyed.
Would that apply as well?
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
Have you considered the possibility that's the intent?
Perhaps there are those among the hierarchy who don't want change.
People often fear change because it disrupts what they've been accustomed to and find comfortable and familiar.
As something of a preservationist, I myself have an aversion to change at times when it happens quickly or harms tradition, but it's something we often have to accept as an inevitability, something necessary which is an essential component of creating progress, stronger social interactions, and better productivity.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
Yeah there is some grading, but it all stays in the same ball park. Could be that Germans are naturally harsh.
Because I would be hard pressed to find any insult in German that would cause the same reaction as the n-word would for Americans.
And the reason I find Opfer harsh is that is makes you a lesser person because you were victimized, which is pretty f***ed up in my book.
And I agree Polake or Kanacke are both stupid insults for the reason you pointed out. But ultimately intend is all that matters not the words you use.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
It is a good thing to be aware of, because it means you are educated on something not to say and you can identify someone else's intentions if they say it.