In my pov they do good buisness rn. Ofc it upsets the poor, but they will spend less in their lifetime than whale in a week, so who cares?
Until the low end and middle section consumers outright quit buying and the whales can't peddle or play with anyone but themselves and the whole game collapses on itself as the whales grow bored and find something else. So yeah, the whole 80 to 90 percent of general playership cares about this if they are truly paying attention.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
A whale collects and doesnt play or plays modo/arena where are always player.. At this point papermagic is a collectors item first and a game second. Have you ever checked baseball cards or stamps
This oversaturation of basic product and introduction of exclusive Premium product is definately getting into Sports card territory.
I might regret it later but I'm pretty sure I'm about to bail on all my high end stuff, sell out before the collapse and continue our fun janky games every week with friends.
In some ways, Commander is probably the "safest" way to play with paper cards, since competitiveness is not a requirement. I am out of all competitive MTG formats. My collection of cards is just one Commander deck and its "sideboard" that I use to mix and match.
It hit me today, these packs having double rares in them is kind of annoying. Theme boosters are 30 cards and only have a chance at two rares. I get that theme boosters aren't the best, I just couldn't help but notice.
As for the "you don't have to buy it, so what's the problem" argument. It is certainly true that people don't have to buy these more premium packs, but these being all the time and for the price they are shows the company is caring more for money than the health of the game. It's definitely a long vs. short term gain. They have been pushing the envelope this past year or so with far more cards that are becoming problematic so people spend more that way, with far more products, far more premium products, far more ways to spend more, and things that just don't seem necessary.
This is showing a trend and that trend that doesn't have the best light at the end of the tunnel. Remember the first premium product we had was for Alara then it took years later to have the Premium Deck Series (that lasted only three decks) and then we had From the Vault once a year. Now count since Eldraine and suddenly you'll find dozens of premium products and it hasn't even been a full year yet.
Eldraine collectors pack, Eldraine collecters fat pack, that $400 premium bundle, Theros collectors packs, 23 different Secret Lairs with one of them costing $400, and by the time we've hit a full year we'll have a Masters product with its own collectors pack, Zendikar 3 will have its own collectors packs, if not more stuff, and M21 will have a collectors pack. Finally, that doesn't even include the other normal products during this time. Then you get to Christmas and we might have a Zendikar collectors fat pack and $400 bundle, and that's not to mention another 20+ Secret Lairs we'll probably have throughout the year.
Product fatigue set in a while ago and at this point its product abuse. They need to pull back on a lot of this.
Disclaimer: I'm not complaining that I can't afford all of it, in fact I'm glad not to pay for most of this stuff, but the past year and the rest of this year have shown a worrying degree that doesn't look like it will be good for the game in the long run.
So... from what I'm hearing, those VIP packs will contain 21 premium cards, 10 lands, 2 full-art lands, and 2 tokens. If each pack were to guarantee 6-8 mythics (or 4-6 mythics + 2 boxtoppers)... That may actually break even on value more often than not. Will have to wait and see if Wizards intends to be that "generous" with its contents... and I would still probably hold off even in that case.
Edit: Never mind. 2 foil showcase rares+mythics + 2 foil rares/mythics + 8 uncommons and 9 commons. All 12 lands are full art but only 2 are foil. Even if all of them are foil, I don't think that 4 rares in a pack commands a $100 price tag... It's better than getting two packs, I guess, but it doesn't seem three times better (though I personally don't care about collecting holographic cards).
These products have the effect that foils get cheaper.
So to prevent that, they increase the price tag so much, that even with the extra supply, the value doesnt crash completely.
---
But in the end it does increase supply no matter what, so these foils will never keep a proper value, as you simply get too many of them.
What you see of the collectors products in general is that they push a lot more foils and rares/mythics into the system, which devalues anything else.
At this point a lot of alternate art cards that are supposed to be more rare cost the same as the regular version, as you get too many of them.
Full art foils are the actual "rare" in the collectors packs, so they have some value and a complete set of full arts is pretty expensive.
----
Anyway the product is so made-up expensive that the people that actually buy these products are the kind of whales that would buy anything as long as its the most expensive version no matter what.
For my taste it would be tremendously better to have these alternate art cards (including the Drops) in regular booster packs, just rare.
So if someone wants them, they have to crack a lot of product and the value of all of these alternate art cards spreads over to all booster packs.
Also in that case theres only 1 product, normal booster packs, instead of thousands of product that nobody has any view over, and nobody really knows what you get from what product (and for some special cards like Commander products if they are even legal in standard or what format exactly, as the "date" of the card is not enough to know that).
----
This mess can be cleaned up, but WotC has absolutely no interest in doing this cleaning.
They are totally fine with the dirty mess as long as people pay to see the show.
In some ways, Commander is probably the "safest" way to play with paper cards, since competitiveness is not a requirement.
Not really since there will be no LGSs left to go to due to the pandemic requiring everyone to continue social distancing. Do you know how hard it is to find playgroups for EDH / Commander without a place to meet-up at? That's like trying to get a game with someone younger than you at their house while their parents falsely suspect you of being a pedophile.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
A whale collects and doesnt play or plays modo/arena where are always player.. At this point papermagic is a collectors item first and a game second. Have you ever checked baseball cards or stamps
I was "cracking" packs of baseball and football cards maybe before you were born in the mid to late 70's. Also dabbled in coin and stamps as well but they didn't hold my interest long. Still am sitting on lots of cards that spiked in value in the 90's then tanked after they did what WotC is doing right now. I've seen this before, its happening again. I am a player of Magic first, a collector second. Lots of whales that play out there to flaunt their collections. Hey its their money. It doesn't mean I have to like it though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
In some ways, Commander is probably the "safest" way to play with paper cards, since competitiveness is not a requirement.
Not really since there will be no LGSs left to go to due to the pandemic requiring everyone to continue social distancing. Do you know how hard it is to find playgroups for EDH / Commander without a place to meet-up at? That's like trying to get a game with someone younger than you at their house while their parents falsely suspect you of being a pedophile.
LGSes shutting down would also hamper any MTG paper format gathering. This isn't just restricted to the Commander format.
My original statement is that with a Commander deck, a player wouldn't need to rush to get every new product out there.
I still think that price point is rather absurd. The idea of a premium product for a Masters set is essentially giving a premium product its own premium product. It's very strange.
It raises some good points justifying Double Masters's existence, but it doesn't solve the reprint problem in the long term. Like other master sets, reprinted cards drop a little to a lot, but often go back up in price in a year. Also, why limit the box to whales and investors? And if the box is really valuable, people might hoard the boxes, preventing the cards from entering circulation on the secondary market. Also, as a commenter there pointed out, how can people who like the draft format play draft if the box is so expensive, because Wizards designs a draft experience for these sets, premium or not?
The only sustainable solution is to reprint more often. Pokemon and YuGiOh reprint often in a variety of products, and it's not harming their overall sales.
It's claimed to be the same leaker that Got the leylines in core 2020 right
Also the enemy ultimatum's and triomes in ikoria right
next it the leak got the next ban in standard (Fires of Invention) and how they are changing companion mechanic
Finally marks new teasers and from the same supposed leak a reprint would be ugin, the spirit dragon (also incredible since $62) and phasing is a mechanic two of marks teasers fit both perfectly
”A card that uses a nonevergreen named ability over twenty years old.” (phasing from mirage 24 years ago)
”A popular character first introduced in flavor text.” (ghostfire introduced ugin by flavor text and in reprint section)
It's claimed to be the same leaker that Got the leylines in core 2020 right
Also the enemy ultimatum's and triomes in ikoria right
next it the leak got the next ban in standard (Fires of Invention) and how they are changing companion mechanic
Finally marks new teasers and from the same suposive leak a reprint would be ugin, the spirit dragon (also incredible since $62) and phasing is a mechanic two of marks teasers fit both perfectly
”A card that uses a nonevergreen named ability over twenty years old.” (phasing from mirage 24 years ago)
”A popular character first introduced in flavor text.” (ghostfire introduced ugin by flavor text and in reprint section)
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Why is Grim Tutor worth 10x the cost of a Demonic Tutor, a card that's better in every way?
Supply. Grim Tutor was only printed in paper in Starter 1999, so there is a very small supply of it. And quite a few decks that want one tutor (like the best Demonic Tutor) want all the tutors in order to increase consistency. So if you're building a very competitive EDH deck, and you want all the available tutors in order to tutor out your combo, this card can be in demand.
Why is Grim Tutor worth 10x the cost of a Demonic Tutor, a card that's better in every way?
Because it's rare. A reprint of this card will probably be in the $20 realm and drop from there. Presales will start high, but if it's a rare, it won't be worth much for quite a while.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Until the low end and middle section consumers outright quit buying and the whales can't peddle or play with anyone but themselves and the whole game collapses on itself as the whales grow bored and find something else. So yeah, the whole 80 to 90 percent of general playership cares about this if they are truly paying attention.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
In some ways, Commander is probably the "safest" way to play with paper cards, since competitiveness is not a requirement. I am out of all competitive MTG formats. My collection of cards is just one Commander deck and its "sideboard" that I use to mix and match.
Then you kinda established a free to play system. Im totally fine with that.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
As for the "you don't have to buy it, so what's the problem" argument. It is certainly true that people don't have to buy these more premium packs, but these being all the time and for the price they are shows the company is caring more for money than the health of the game. It's definitely a long vs. short term gain. They have been pushing the envelope this past year or so with far more cards that are becoming problematic so people spend more that way, with far more products, far more premium products, far more ways to spend more, and things that just don't seem necessary.
This is showing a trend and that trend that doesn't have the best light at the end of the tunnel. Remember the first premium product we had was for Alara then it took years later to have the Premium Deck Series (that lasted only three decks) and then we had From the Vault once a year. Now count since Eldraine and suddenly you'll find dozens of premium products and it hasn't even been a full year yet.
Eldraine collectors pack, Eldraine collecters fat pack, that $400 premium bundle, Theros collectors packs, 23 different Secret Lairs with one of them costing $400, and by the time we've hit a full year we'll have a Masters product with its own collectors pack, Zendikar 3 will have its own collectors packs, if not more stuff, and M21 will have a collectors pack. Finally, that doesn't even include the other normal products during this time. Then you get to Christmas and we might have a Zendikar collectors fat pack and $400 bundle, and that's not to mention another 20+ Secret Lairs we'll probably have throughout the year.
Product fatigue set in a while ago and at this point its product abuse. They need to pull back on a lot of this.
Disclaimer: I'm not complaining that I can't afford all of it, in fact I'm glad not to pay for most of this stuff, but the past year and the rest of this year have shown a worrying degree that doesn't look like it will be good for the game in the long run.
Edit: Never mind. 2 foil showcase rares+mythics + 2 foil rares/mythics + 8 uncommons and 9 commons. All 12 lands are full art but only 2 are foil. Even if all of them are foil, I don't think that 4 rares in a pack commands a $100 price tag... It's better than getting two packs, I guess, but it doesn't seem three times better (though I personally don't care about collecting holographic cards).
So to prevent that, they increase the price tag so much, that even with the extra supply, the value doesnt crash completely.
---
But in the end it does increase supply no matter what, so these foils will never keep a proper value, as you simply get too many of them.
What you see of the collectors products in general is that they push a lot more foils and rares/mythics into the system, which devalues anything else.
At this point a lot of alternate art cards that are supposed to be more rare cost the same as the regular version, as you get too many of them.
Full art foils are the actual "rare" in the collectors packs, so they have some value and a complete set of full arts is pretty expensive.
----
Anyway the product is so made-up expensive that the people that actually buy these products are the kind of whales that would buy anything as long as its the most expensive version no matter what.
For my taste it would be tremendously better to have these alternate art cards (including the Drops) in regular booster packs, just rare.
So if someone wants them, they have to crack a lot of product and the value of all of these alternate art cards spreads over to all booster packs.
Also in that case theres only 1 product, normal booster packs, instead of thousands of product that nobody has any view over, and nobody really knows what you get from what product (and for some special cards like Commander products if they are even legal in standard or what format exactly, as the "date" of the card is not enough to know that).
----
This mess can be cleaned up, but WotC has absolutely no interest in doing this cleaning.
They are totally fine with the dirty mess as long as people pay to see the show.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I was "cracking" packs of baseball and football cards maybe before you were born in the mid to late 70's. Also dabbled in coin and stamps as well but they didn't hold my interest long. Still am sitting on lots of cards that spiked in value in the 90's then tanked after they did what WotC is doing right now. I've seen this before, its happening again. I am a player of Magic first, a collector second. Lots of whales that play out there to flaunt their collections. Hey its their money. It doesn't mean I have to like it though.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
LGSes shutting down would also hamper any MTG paper format gathering. This isn't just restricted to the Commander format.
My original statement is that with a Commander deck, a player wouldn't need to rush to get every new product out there.
Looks like we all may have jumped the gun on the $100 price tag of vip packs
https://news.toyark.com/2020/05/22/magic-the-gathering-double-masters-with-vip-collector-box-information-388935
They say $35-$40 here so that
I still think that price point is rather absurd. The idea of a premium product for a Masters set is essentially giving a premium product its own premium product. It's very strange.
Well then.....that seems pretty reasonable actually
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/double-masters-is-for-you-whether-you-buy-a-box-or-not
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
It raises some good points justifying Double Masters's existence, but it doesn't solve the reprint problem in the long term. Like other master sets, reprinted cards drop a little to a lot, but often go back up in price in a year. Also, why limit the box to whales and investors? And if the box is really valuable, people might hoard the boxes, preventing the cards from entering circulation on the secondary market. Also, as a commenter there pointed out, how can people who like the draft format play draft if the box is so expensive, because Wizards designs a draft experience for these sets, premium or not?
The only sustainable solution is to reprint more often. Pokemon and YuGiOh reprint often in a variety of products, and it's not harming their overall sales.
It's grim tutor average is $228 for the moment
It's claimed to be the same leaker that Got the leylines in core 2020 right
Also the enemy ultimatum's and triomes in ikoria right
next it the leak got the next ban in standard (Fires of Invention) and how they are changing companion mechanic
Finally marks new teasers and from the same supposed leak a reprint would be ugin, the spirit dragon (also incredible since $62) and phasing is a mechanic two of marks teasers fit both perfectly
”A card that uses a nonevergreen named ability over twenty years old.” (phasing from mirage 24 years ago)
”A popular character first introduced in flavor text.” (ghostfire introduced ugin by flavor text and in reprint section)
*Supposed.
Also, there’s already a thread for this.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Supply. Grim Tutor was only printed in paper in Starter 1999, so there is a very small supply of it. And quite a few decks that want one tutor (like the best Demonic Tutor) want all the tutors in order to increase consistency. So if you're building a very competitive EDH deck, and you want all the available tutors in order to tutor out your combo, this card can be in demand.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsBecause it's rare. A reprint of this card will probably be in the $20 realm and drop from there. Presales will start high, but if it's a rare, it won't be worth much for quite a while.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
If a card has no reprint at all, its expensive simply for being actually rare.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I think I heard mid-July.