If we see signs of long-term health issues resulting from high metagame share of companion decks, we're willing to take steps up to or including changing how the companion mechanic works.
I think it's interesting they would consider this as an option. It's not uncommon for something like this in a digital-only card game, but it seems unexpected for Magic to change a mechanic after set release.
edit: I guess they did sort of change a mechanic post-release with Lifelink, but still my interpretation is that the change would be bigger than something like changing a mechanic from a triggered ability to a static ability. But like more of a power-level errata.
In fairness they changed how phasing worked a few times even after its initial release so it is plausible to have an errata that significantly affects how a mechanic operates post-release.
That said this is a remarkable development. Cards that were banned in Vintage that aren’t ante, physically involved (Chaos Orb for example), gameplay modifying (Shaharazad), silver border or novelty à la Conspiracies hasn’t happened in a long time.
It’s a huge scar on the design and designers involved. Now we have to see how this affects standard and modern. I bet it’ll be as widespread as the original Mirrodin bannings in ‘03/‘04.
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Yet Oko is still legal in Legacy. Probably because Ikoria packs are selling like hotcakes and the have tons of Throne sitting in a warehouse. lol
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i wonder about the winota ban.
do i understand it right, she is banned because to many play her ? popularity shouldnt be a reason for ban in my opinion. if the deck would be problematic with a high win rate, okay, but because she gets played to much ???
and on social media people complain to much about "how fail of an ability companion is". i think the point of view from the community is wrong here. the problem is not companion on its own, but the ability these companion cards have. some are just to powerful for a 100% guarantied card in your "hand", especially zirda. which is why i understand the lurrus and zirda ban. but the problem is not the mechanic. the mechanic is actually totally fine and it gives constructed a little commander touch. and in commander we dont have this discussion besides a few expectations. if every constructet deck could run a companion, that is not to powerful, the ability would be totally fine. imagine cards like thieving otter having companion (lets say with lurrus restriction), would it than be overpowered or just ok to good ? so while i think lurrus design was a mistake, i dont think companion in itself was a mistake. it is actually a new interesting mechanic, and one of the fewer creative mechanics in recent years
i wonder about the winota ban.
do i understand it right, she is banned because to many play her ? popularity shouldnt be a reason for ban in my opinion. if the deck would be problematic with a high win rate, okay, but because she gets played to much ???
They start by saying she has too high win rates. Its the high win rates which are making her played a lot. They then say they are normally forgiving of high win rates in more casual setting like brawl but her increasing popularity combined with her already impressive win rate made them take action. Meaning if a commander is too strong but unpopular or popular but weak they won't ban. It has to be strong and popular.
If they included Companion in the actual deck and allowed it to cycle away for free or something it would totally do the trick and fix all the bull*****ery with the mechanic (while also working with the sets cycling theme in general).
----
They simply did a piss poor job with the mechanic and got burned heavily.
Should just ban all the Campanions and get it over with.
Instead we deal with this crap for the upcoming year.
I am guessing they already have Companion cooked into an upcoming set like M21 or whatever comes after Zendikar 3.0 and they don't want to kill the mechanic but possibly change it.
That they haven't banned Lurrus from Modern and Pioneer (and possibly Standard) yet tells me they want to sell more cards over the next few weeks. That is flat out scummy business practice.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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If we see signs of long-term health issues resulting from high metagame share of companion decks, we're willing to take steps up to or including changing how the companion mechanic works.
I think it's interesting they would consider this as an option. It's not uncommon for something like this in a digital-only card game, but it seems unexpected for Magic to change a mechanic after set release.
edit: I guess they did sort of change a mechanic post-release with Lifelink, but still my interpretation is that the change would be bigger than something like changing a mechanic from a triggered ability to a static ability. But like more of a power-level errata.
Convoke was significantly changed when it was reprinted. Initially only generic mana could be paid with convoke and now colored mana can be paid as well with matching creature.
It's incredibly scummy behavior to not ban companions in other formats as well. It's obvious that the same problem is visible in all formats with varying degree depending on the availability of cards that fulfill companion restriction and decks that can leverage having free additional card in starting hand.
The argument that there was enough data to warrant banning Lurrus in vintage and not enough data to ban anything in modern/pioneer/standard is laughable considering comparison between the number of matches that is being played in those formats.
If we see signs of long-term health issues resulting from high metagame share of companion decks, we're willing to take steps up to or including changing how the companion mechanic works.
I think it's interesting they would consider this as an option. It's not uncommon for something like this in a digital-only card game, but it seems unexpected for Magic to change a mechanic after set release.
edit: I guess they did sort of change a mechanic post-release with Lifelink, but still my interpretation is that the change would be bigger than something like changing a mechanic from a triggered ability to a static ability. But like more of a power-level errata.
Convoke was significantly changed when it was reprinted. Initially only generic mana could be paid with convoke and now colored mana can be paid as well with matching creature.
It's incredibly scummy behavior to not ban companions in other formats as well. It's obvious that the same problem is visible in all formats with varying degree depending on the availability of cards that fulfill companion restriction and decks that can leverage having free additional card in starting hand.
The argument that there was enough data to warrant banning Lurrus in vintage and not enough data to ban anything in modern/pioneer/standard is laughable considering comparison between the number of matches that is being played in those formats.
That is not correct. Convoke always allowed you to tap creatures for color.
Originally, convoke was an additional cost that reduced the cost in mana. With the return of convoke in Magic 2015, the rules for convoke changed to their current form as an alternative way of paying a mana cost. This affects how it interacts with, for example, Eldrazi Spawn tokens' sacrifice-based mana ability (mana abilities must be activated before paying costs), and effects such as Trinisphere that care about total costs.
Convoke was significantly changed when it was reprinted. Initially only generic mana could be paid with convoke and now colored mana can be paid as well with matching creature.
That isn't what changed. They only changed that you could no longer "overpay" for a spell with Convoke, changing it from a cost reduction to a payment method. It was always able to pay for colored mana.
I know Winota is an obnoxiously powerful beast that needs to eat removal a bunch of times in Commander but I didn't expect it would be banned for having too high a winrate in Brawl.
Yet Oko is still legal in Legacy. Probably because Ikoria packs are selling like hotcakes and the have tons of Throne sitting in a warehouse. lol
Oko, Thief of Crowns is also incompatible with several of the Companions and notably cannot be played in decks that use Lurrus of the Dream-Den as a Companion. Oko definitely took a dip after Ikoria got released.
If they included Companion in the actual deck and allowed it to cycle away for free or something it would totally do the trick and fix all the bull*****ery with the mechanic (while also working with the sets cycling theme in general).
----
They simply did a piss poor job with the mechanic and got burned heavily.
Some Companions can and do see play in the maindecks of decks they are Companions for, the most prominent example being Gyruda, Doom of Depths. What do you see as the bull with Companion, and how will adding Cycling to them fix it? (The biggest bull I saw at first was and is the need to enforce deckbuilding restrictions for them in a game where you're typically not supposed to know the precise contents of your opponent's deck.)
It’s crap like this that makes me so happy that I enjoy this game as a casual, kitchen table, Commander only game with friends.
So glad that we continue to play with cards we enjoy regardless of what some sanctioning body tells us we can play with despite them being the ones that put the cards into production.
I feel bad for anyone that enjoys this mechanic or specific companions and plays a format where they’re no longer to allowed that enjoyment. Hope those impacted didn’t spend too much money to get these cards.
Lurrus sucks in Modern what are you talking about. It's more than fine. Hell, it's a welcome change of pace because it encourages durdling. Which is not a thing that is often found in Modern. You wanna talk about bannings in modern? I would kill Amulet Titan already. And what are you doing with Lurrus in pioneer that is so broken anyways???
Lurrus sucks in Modern what are you talking about. It's more than fine. Hell, it's a welcome change of pace because it encourages durdling. Which is not a thing that is often found in Modern. You wanna talk about bannings in modern? I would kill Amulet Titan already. And what are you doing with Lurrus in pioneer that is so broken anyways???
Well for one my brother might be testing it for a fix to the affinity decks I’ve seen it almost every card fits the bill for the companion condition plus the the Ozolith might be good too since it combos with arcbound ravager (doubles counters on a creature before attack)
Lurrus sucks in Modern what are you talking about. It's more than fine. Hell, it's a welcome change of pace because it encourages durdling. Which is not a thing that is often found in Modern. You wanna talk about bannings in modern? I would kill Amulet Titan already. And what are you doing with Lurrus in pioneer that is so broken anyways???
From all the MTGO Challenges, Super Qualifiers, Premiers, and other high-level events I see, I'd say around a third of the Modern decks have Lurrus of the Dream-Den as their Companion. That's kinda scary. Unfortunately, I'd say that Stoneforge Mystic decks and Snapcaster Mage decks are more diverse than Lurrus decks (among other commonly played, strong Modern creatures), being found more often in control decks and even combo decks.
The percentage of Modern decks in those tournaments with Yorion, Sky Nomad as their Companion is actually kinda scary, too. Yorion encourages bigger durdling than Lurrus (Lurrus is found in more aggro decks and combo decks than Yorion) to boot, partially because of Yorion's significantly higher mana cost. In fact, I suspect it's the Yorion decks that may be the biggest factor encouraging Wizards to not ban Lurrus in Modern.
And yes, I'm seeing Lurrus Companion decks pop up in numbers in the Top 8s of paper tournaments, too.
While my initial impression I got from playtesting Lurrus as a Companion in Modern is that it keeps dying to removal immediately and therefore that Companion was a wee bit overrated, quite a lot of Lurrus decks in Modern have graveyard recursion such as Kolaghan's Command or Unearth to ensure that Lurrus sticks.
Lurrus doesn't suck in Modern, it's reasonably easy to get one card's worth of value from it, and the times when all it recurs is Mishra's Bauble for turns straight, it wins games. It helps grind out that last bit of advantage even if it dies on the spot, and it's quite cheap at 3 mana, and those are why it has reached what I believe to be dangerously high levels of play in Modern.
I feel bad for anyone that enjoys this mechanic or specific companions and plays a format where they’re no longer to allowed that enjoyment. Hope those impacted didn’t spend too much money to get these cards.
People who bought the two Companions only were gonna buy one per deck, and Brawl of course is a singleton format so that's the same (I'm guessing a majority of Brawl happens on Arena so those bans are even less consequential monetarily)
It's a bit different than banning Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, I think, and for people playing Vintage, being out 12-25 bucks is something they wouldn't even think about because they have money printers at home. I honestly think it would have been okay for Lurrus to be in every Vintage game, though, since the format seems already to be a shell of "must-play" cards with like 12 flexslots for a wincon (This is maybe an exagerration and I'm uninformed, but you do seem to need the power mana and forces and such to even begin to compete) but if Lurrus is in every deck, that means that Vintage has a much smaller cardpool than "Almost every card in Magic," with any permanent card 3cmc+ being rendered totally unplayable in the format, it's like banning way more cards that way, in a sense.
Either starting with one less card or skipping your first draw step seem like reasonable fixes for companion. Maybe even skipping your next draw step after casting your companion. Anything to take away the "8th card advantage".
The difference between phasing and companion is that phasing was a much more complicated mechanic. Phasing has been pruned down for the sake of balance and accessibility, its no longer the behemoth of a mechanic it once was. It was essentially the mutate of its time. Companion meanwhile is a sloppy version of the unknown tempest mechanic and the commander mechanic.
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Brawl
Drannith Magistrate and Winota, Joiner of Forces are banned
Legacy
Lurrus of the Dream-Den and Zirda, the Dawnwaker are banned
Vintage
Lurrus of the Dream-Den is banned.
https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2020/05/18/18-may-2020-update/
Basically, they were only using the vintage banned list as a shortcut to say antes/conspiracies/chaos orb/falling star/Shahrazad is banned in Edh
But they can’t use that shortcut anymore because of Lurrus of the Dream-Den because they know lurrus is not even close to bannable
By the way, I wouldn’t get too comfy with lurrus in modern and pioneer it’s possibly a matter of time there
I dunno, Vintage is such an unaccessable format I wonder why the even bother.
I think it's interesting they would consider this as an option. It's not uncommon for something like this in a digital-only card game, but it seems unexpected for Magic to change a mechanic after set release.
edit: I guess they did sort of change a mechanic post-release with Lifelink, but still my interpretation is that the change would be bigger than something like changing a mechanic from a triggered ability to a static ability. But like more of a power-level errata.
[180 classic cube]
That said this is a remarkable development. Cards that were banned in Vintage that aren’t ante, physically involved (Chaos Orb for example), gameplay modifying (Shaharazad), silver border or novelty à la Conspiracies hasn’t happened in a long time.
It’s a huge scar on the design and designers involved. Now we have to see how this affects standard and modern. I bet it’ll be as widespread as the original Mirrodin bannings in ‘03/‘04.
‘buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
do i understand it right, she is banned because to many play her ? popularity shouldnt be a reason for ban in my opinion. if the deck would be problematic with a high win rate, okay, but because she gets played to much ???
and on social media people complain to much about "how fail of an ability companion is". i think the point of view from the community is wrong here. the problem is not companion on its own, but the ability these companion cards have. some are just to powerful for a 100% guarantied card in your "hand", especially zirda. which is why i understand the lurrus and zirda ban. but the problem is not the mechanic. the mechanic is actually totally fine and it gives constructed a little commander touch. and in commander we dont have this discussion besides a few expectations. if every constructet deck could run a companion, that is not to powerful, the ability would be totally fine. imagine cards like thieving otter having companion (lets say with lurrus restriction), would it than be overpowered or just ok to good ? so while i think lurrus design was a mistake, i dont think companion in itself was a mistake. it is actually a new interesting mechanic, and one of the fewer creative mechanics in recent years
----
They simply did a piss poor job with the mechanic and got burned heavily.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Instead we deal with this crap for the upcoming year.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I am guessing they already have Companion cooked into an upcoming set like M21 or whatever comes after Zendikar 3.0 and they don't want to kill the mechanic but possibly change it.
That they haven't banned Lurrus from Modern and Pioneer (and possibly Standard) yet tells me they want to sell more cards over the next few weeks. That is flat out scummy business practice.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
It's incredibly scummy behavior to not ban companions in other formats as well. It's obvious that the same problem is visible in all formats with varying degree depending on the availability of cards that fulfill companion restriction and decks that can leverage having free additional card in starting hand.
The argument that there was enough data to warrant banning Lurrus in vintage and not enough data to ban anything in modern/pioneer/standard is laughable considering comparison between the number of matches that is being played in those formats.
That is not correct. Convoke always allowed you to tap creatures for color.
Originally, convoke was an additional cost that reduced the cost in mana. With the return of convoke in Magic 2015, the rules for convoke changed to their current form as an alternative way of paying a mana cost. This affects how it interacts with, for example, Eldrazi Spawn tokens' sacrifice-based mana ability (mana abilities must be activated before paying costs), and effects such as Trinisphere that care about total costs.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
EDIT: Oh, Dunharrow got to it before me
I know Winota is an obnoxiously powerful beast that needs to eat removal a bunch of times in Commander but I didn't expect it would be banned for having too high a winrate in Brawl.
Oko, Thief of Crowns is also incompatible with several of the Companions and notably cannot be played in decks that use Lurrus of the Dream-Den as a Companion. Oko definitely took a dip after Ikoria got released.
Some Companions can and do see play in the maindecks of decks they are Companions for, the most prominent example being Gyruda, Doom of Depths. What do you see as the bull with Companion, and how will adding Cycling to them fix it? (The biggest bull I saw at first was and is the need to enforce deckbuilding restrictions for them in a game where you're typically not supposed to know the precise contents of your opponent's deck.)
I was actually thinking that it may be easier to implement something like, “If you reveal a companion, skip the first time you would draw a card”.
So glad that we continue to play with cards we enjoy regardless of what some sanctioning body tells us we can play with despite them being the ones that put the cards into production.
I feel bad for anyone that enjoys this mechanic or specific companions and plays a format where they’re no longer to allowed that enjoyment. Hope those impacted didn’t spend too much money to get these cards.
Well for one my brother might be testing it for a fix to the affinity decks I’ve seen it almost every card fits the bill for the companion condition plus the the Ozolith might be good too since it combos with arcbound ravager (doubles counters on a creature before attack)
From all the MTGO Challenges, Super Qualifiers, Premiers, and other high-level events I see, I'd say around a third of the Modern decks have Lurrus of the Dream-Den as their Companion. That's kinda scary. Unfortunately, I'd say that Stoneforge Mystic decks and Snapcaster Mage decks are more diverse than Lurrus decks (among other commonly played, strong Modern creatures), being found more often in control decks and even combo decks.
The percentage of Modern decks in those tournaments with Yorion, Sky Nomad as their Companion is actually kinda scary, too. Yorion encourages bigger durdling than Lurrus (Lurrus is found in more aggro decks and combo decks than Yorion) to boot, partially because of Yorion's significantly higher mana cost. In fact, I suspect it's the Yorion decks that may be the biggest factor encouraging Wizards to not ban Lurrus in Modern.
And yes, I'm seeing Lurrus Companion decks pop up in numbers in the Top 8s of paper tournaments, too.
While my initial impression I got from playtesting Lurrus as a Companion in Modern is that it keeps dying to removal immediately and therefore that Companion was a wee bit overrated, quite a lot of Lurrus decks in Modern have graveyard recursion such as Kolaghan's Command or Unearth to ensure that Lurrus sticks.
Lurrus doesn't suck in Modern, it's reasonably easy to get one card's worth of value from it, and the times when all it recurs is Mishra's Bauble for turns straight, it wins games. It helps grind out that last bit of advantage even if it dies on the spot, and it's quite cheap at 3 mana, and those are why it has reached what I believe to be dangerously high levels of play in Modern.
People who bought the two Companions only were gonna buy one per deck, and Brawl of course is a singleton format so that's the same (I'm guessing a majority of Brawl happens on Arena so those bans are even less consequential monetarily)
It's a bit different than banning Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, I think, and for people playing Vintage, being out 12-25 bucks is something they wouldn't even think about because they have money printers at home. I honestly think it would have been okay for Lurrus to be in every Vintage game, though, since the format seems already to be a shell of "must-play" cards with like 12 flexslots for a wincon (This is maybe an exagerration and I'm uninformed, but you do seem to need the power mana and forces and such to even begin to compete) but if Lurrus is in every deck, that means that Vintage has a much smaller cardpool than "Almost every card in Magic," with any permanent card 3cmc+ being rendered totally unplayable in the format, it's like banning way more cards that way, in a sense.