The new companion mechanic from Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths is a reward for imposing an extra restriction on how you build your deck. Our goal in designing these cards was to give players more choices in deck building and more options for self-expression.
In the case of the companion card Lutri, the Spellchaser, the deck-building restriction is to play "singleton," with no more than one copy of each nonland card in your deck. The idea is to reward a player for choosing a diversity of different cards rather than multiple copies of the most efficient card for the job. This makes a lot of sense in most formats, where it often dramatically alters the way a player would choose to build their deck in exchange for starting the game with an extra powerful card.
In Brawl, however, the Singleton deck-building restriction is already built into the format rules. This means that there is no trade-off against how one would normally build a deck. Any deck including both blue and red would benefit from including Lutri at no deck-building cost. This isn't in line with the design intent of the companion mechanic, and we believe it would create a large imbalance between decks capable of including Lutri and those that can't. Therefore, we've decided to begin Ikoria's release with Lutri, the Spellchaser banned in Brawl.
This isn't an oversight or a case where we underestimated a card that was too powerful. In fact, discussions surrounding the legality of this card in Singleton formats began early in the design process. As we playtested with Lutri, we decided that the fun deck-building challenge and opportunity for self-expression it presents in other Magic formats clearly made the design worth printing, even if it didn't make sense in Brawl.
Banning cards in any format is something we take seriously, and it has been and will continue to be a rare situation in which we ban a card before its release. In this case, we felt an exception was clearly warranted based on the design goals of the card.
Other companion creatures will still be usable in Brawl and may even be chosen as your companion (in addition to Brawl's usual Commander mechanics). We're looking forward to the release of Ikoria and hope you enjoy building around and playing with Ikoria's companion creatures as much as we have!
Oh look a buff to tainted pact decks. Also yeah, thats all folks for changes.
while their logic to ban the card is sound, their logic to print the card anyway feels fundamentally flawed.
its now banned in 2 formats, and its restriction is so limiting there almost zero chance it's going to show up anywhere else given the nature of variance and how hard decks want consistency.
while their logic to ban the card is sound, their logic to print the card anyway feels fundamentally flawed.
its now banned in 2 formats, and its restriction is so limiting there almost zero chance it's going to show up anywhere else given the nature of variance and how hard decks want consistency.
I agree. I think it is also uniquely bad in that your oppeont can not really check if you follow the requirement - you need judge checks for it. Every other companion can easily be checked (except theoretically the one that requires you to pick a nonland type) on a card by card level, like if you play the the br companion (requiring odd converted mana costs), then you can only cheat with it by never playing any of your even costed cards - thus non of those cards matters for the game and you are better of by following the constraimt. Here, you can cheat by simply keeping the second copy in hand. Like, say card X is a two card combo with Lutri, then it clearly increases the likelyhood of you winning if you play 4 of card X andd just never play a second copy, ensuring none can see you cheat, outside judge checks.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
while their logic to ban the card is sound, their logic to print the card anyway feels fundamentally flawed.
its now banned in 2 formats, and its restriction is so limiting there almost zero chance it's going to show up anywhere else given the nature of variance and how hard decks want consistency.
I agree. I think it is also uniquely bad in that your oppeont can not really check if you follow the requirement - you need judge checks for it. Every other companion can easily be checked (except theoretically the one that requires you to pick a nonland type) on a card by card level, like if you play the the br companion (requiring odd converted mana costs), then you can only cheat with it by never playing any of your even costed cards - thus non of those cards matters for the game and you are better of by following the constraimt. Here, you can cheat by simply keeping the second copy in hand. Like, say card X is a two card combo with Lutri, then it clearly increases the likelyhood of you winning if you play 4 of card X andd just never play a second copy, ensuring none can see you cheat, outside judge checks.
There is a logic to that but couldn't players break singleton in Commander in the same way or run 6x a spell in constructed?
while their logic to ban the card is sound, their logic to print the card anyway feels fundamentally flawed.
its now banned in 2 formats, and its restriction is so limiting there almost zero chance it's going to show up anywhere else given the nature of variance and how hard decks want consistency.
I don't know about all that. If their intent is to continue imitating Hearthstone, there was about a year gap between the even / odd deck SNAFU and the most recent batch of highlander decks, most of which are still quite viable in standard. Don't put it past WotC to really push these deck restrictions in the not-too-distant future.
Ofcoarse lutri is it’s because the companion is a 100§ approved for any deck and it’s a dualcaster mage so any deck would do it
Its a wateredown Dualcaster Mage. If it weren't for the clause of ", if cast," then it would be more powerful than Dualcaster as you always had access to it.
Oh look a buff to tainted pact decks. Also yeah, thats all folks for changes.
What does Tainted Pact have to do with Brawl bannings?
Nothing for Brawl. But the intent by Wizards was for Lutri to see play in non-singleton formats. The only decks that would want a Lutri are decks that already singleton like Tainted Pact. The payoff for making your deck singleton and have less redunant pieces is a watered down Dualcaster Mage. If it was just Dualcaster Mage but legendary, yeah new decks would crop up for it.
I think it is also uniquely bad in that your oppeont can not really check if you follow the requirement - you need judge checks for it.
You never had to check if the opponent's deck had 5 copies of a card of a minimum of 60. You start with their companion revealed, so you know which criteria all his cards have to meet. Once he plays an illegal card, slap a nearby judge on opponent's face.
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My favorite thing about MTG Salvation is the "Ignore User" feature.
I think it is also uniquely bad in that your oppeont can not really check if you follow the requirement - you need judge checks for it.
You never had to check if the opponent's deck had 5 copies of a card of a minimum of 60. You start with their companion revealed, so you know which criteria all his cards have to meet. Once he plays an illegal card, slap a nearby judge on opponent's face.
True, but you need something like 8 of a card to match the difference between singleton and two of each card... Also, it is plausible that there is a 2 cards combo with Lutri which was the issue I focused on, which makes it quite different from a normal deck situration
Also, the second part WAS my point; for the others, you cheating with them will not actually help (since you cant play the card you cheat with). Lutri can not be checked essily and you just have to be a bit careful to cheat with it.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
The moment someone with Lutri has a second copy of a card you know they're cheating. As others have pointed out, deck building restrictions have existed for a few decades and it has been fine.
If you've ever done tournament play, you would know that deck lists are submitted in advance and random deck checks are performed by judges. So in no real sense is anyone at risk of being bamboozled.
The moment someone with Lutri has a second copy of a card you know they're cheating. As others have pointed out, deck building restrictions have existed for a few decades and it has been fine.
If you've ever done tournament play, you would know that deck lists are submitted in advance and random deck checks are performed by judges. So in no real sense is anyone at risk of being bamboozled.
As I mentioned, you can just keep the second copy in hand - that way they typically cant catch you - outside discard effects. It hurts a bit, but if you say play 2 of each card, you are still very unlikely to see both and in that case it does not hurt at all.
Deck checks: note that the requirement is on your main deck only. You can have cards in sb breaking the singleton rule (if you followed the rules you could then sb in and not play with your companion or you could use it as a wishboard in older formats that has wishes). Failure to de sideboard is typically game loss (I imagine this stuff will get you DQed though if it just smells like this). Thus, you just put your duplicates in sb, shuffle them in and then “forget” to de-sideboard. Heck, deck checks are typically only performed before first game, so you can cheat this way in the second an third game and be fairly safe. Note that this is a new problem. It is not the same thing as cheating by playing more than 4 of a card, because that can be caught by a standaed deck check. You might say that you just check if they sb anything in, but quite many people -as I am sure you know, since you seemingly have played in tournaments - hides the number they sb by shuffling in their full sb and then removing cards. Therefore, yes, you can bambozle people with this...
(Just in case someone missunderstand me, I am only playing online, so I really really cant cheat with this - I am trying to see what kind of problems this card can cause and no, it is just this card with that issue really it is not the mechanic)
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
The moment someone with Lutri has a second copy of a card you know they're cheating. As others have pointed out, deck building restrictions have existed for a few decades and it has been fine.
If you've ever done tournament play, you would know that deck lists are submitted in advance and random deck checks are performed by judges. So in no real sense is anyone at risk of being bamboozled.
As I mentioned, you can just keep the second copy in hand - that way they typically cant catch you - outside discard effects. It hurts a bit, but if you say play 2 of each card, you are still very unlikely to see both and in that case it does not hurt at all.
Deck checks: note that the requirement is on your main deck only. You can have cards in sb breaking the singleton rule (if you followed the rules you could then sb in and not play with your companion or you could use it as a wishboard in older formats that has wishes). Failure to de sideboard is typically game loss (I imagine this stuff will get you DQed though if it just smells like this). Thus, you just put your duplicates in sb, shuffle them in and then “forget” to de-sideboard. Heck, deck checks are typically only performed before first game, so you can cheat this way in the second an third game and be fairly safe. Note that this is a new problem. It is not the same thing as cheating by playing more than 4 of a card, because that can be caught by a standaed deck check. You might say that you just check if they sb anything in, but quite many people -as I am sure you know, since you seemingly have played in tournaments - hides the number they sb by shuffling in their full sb and then removing cards. Therefore, yes, you can bambozle people with this...
(Just in case someone missunderstand me, I am only playing online, so I really really cant cheat with this - I am trying to see what kind of problems this card can cause and no, it is just this card with that issue really it is not the mechanic)
Do you mean checks are only done in the first game of a match, or the first match? Because checks are done at the beginning of the match and that's the only time it matters. They are done randomly for every match throughout the tournament. You can't "forget to unsideboard" and get away with it if you get chosen for a deck check.
I can tell you play online, because you talk like you haven't been to a lot of paper tournaments.
Cheating deck construction rules are very rare. Most cheating is gameplay based.
I can guarantee you that any issues with companions are overblown. I'm not saying someone somewhere won't try. But let's be honest, none of the companions are very competitive and are unlikely to see much tournament play. They're a gimmick for arena players to play with and that's it.
Edit: second copy in hand is risky if you're aiming to cheat. Your forgetting about discard and Thoughtseize effects. Also, judges roam and observe.
Do you mean checks are only done in the first game of a match, or the first match? Because checks are done at the beginning of the match and that's the only time it matters. They are done randomly for every match throughout the tournament. You can't "forget to unsideboard" and get away with it if you get chosen for a deck check.
I can guarantee you that any issues with companions are overblown. I'm not saying someone somewhere won't try. But let's be honest, none of the companions are very competitive and are unlikely to see much tournament play. They're a gimmick for arena players to play with and that's it.
Edit: second copy in hand is risky if you're aiming to cheat. Your forgetting about discard and Thoughtseize effects. Also, judge
I am saying that you CAN cheat by sbing in extra copies in game 2 and 3 (note, Lutri, like the others, specify a rule for your starting deck and those extra copies in sb is fine) and still play your companion and as I also mentioned before, you cant see that ppl sb something in because they just mix their full sb into main deck and extract some cards. This is a new problem! You can cheat on deck construction in game 2 and 3 only!
I agree that in practice it wont be too important because as Lutri is not that strong (I disagree with that you said that none of them are that strong. The ug one will be very strong in standard fires - one of the top decks - they are mostly following the rule anyway and could use more cards - but luckily it is one of those you cant cheat with)
(I considered being quite sacastic abou me overlooking discard effects in regards to second copy in hand cheating. I literally wrote that the only way to catch you keeping a second copy in hand is discard effects. They aint common in standard anyway).
I guess you are right in that judges can see a second copy while walking around, but judges tries hard not to interfer in games without reason (which should be clear) and if you play with your cards close to your body or play with some of the cards in your hand lying face down on the table (both something people actually do) they wont be able to see your cards in hand while walking around. Besides that if you only cheat wit instants or sorceries, people typically play with their gy in a stack, so the judges cant actually see it unless it is the top card of your gy and in your hand.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
Most judges are pretty good. I've been to a lot of events and I trust that the few times people will try something they have a good chance of being caught.
But just to note, of course you CAN cheat. I've never said you can't. But there are always ways to cheat, and new ways with almost every set. I would say the most sketchy standard environment for shady plays was Khans of Tarkir with both manifest and morph at the same time. There was a lot of room for abuse, yet it all worked out. I'm just an optimist.
Most judges are pretty good. I've been to a lot of events and I trust that the few times people will try something they have a good chance of being caught.
But just to note, of course you CAN cheat. I've never said you can't. But there are always ways to cheat, and new ways with almost every set. I would say the most sketchy standard environment for shady plays was Khans of Tarkir with both manifest and morph at the same time. There was a lot of room for abuse, yet it all worked out. I'm just an optimist.
You could not abuse/cheat with morph/manifests with very little effort. In fact the rules required you to clearly mark which one is which.
With all companions except Lutri you can verify if opponent is not cheating as soon as offending card is put on the stack (or earlier if you have ways to reveal hidden information eg Duress). But with the otter you cannot do this in all situations. Opponent can still cast rule-breaking spell and you have no way of verifying if it breaks companion restriction.
Consider the following scenario: opponent casts Impact Tremors, casts Release to the Wind, casts Lutri. Wins the game. At no point you had a chance to verify that opponent did not cheat by having multiple copies of those cards while opponent could increase the probability of assembling them.
So right now in formats that could be interested in playing that card instead of UR having the best companion it has none. Good job. :/
Most judges are pretty good. I've been to a lot of events and I trust that the few times people will try something they have a good chance of being caught.
But just to note, of course you CAN cheat. I've never said you can't. But there are always ways to cheat, and new ways with almost every set. I would say the most sketchy standard environment for shady plays was Khans of Tarkir with both manifest and morph at the same time. There was a lot of room for abuse, yet it all worked out. I'm just an optimist.
You could not abuse/cheat with morph/manifests with very little effort. In fact the rules required you to clearly mark which one is which.
With all companions except Lutri you can verify if opponent is not cheating as soon as offending card is put on the stack (or earlier if you have ways to reveal hidden information eg Duress). But with the otter you cannot do this in all situations. Opponent can still cast rule-breaking spell and you have no way of verifying if it breaks companion restriction.
Consider the following scenario: opponent casts Impact Tremors, casts Release to the Wind, casts Lutri. Wins the game. At no point you had a chance to verify that opponent did not cheat by having multiple copies of those cards while opponent could increase the probability of assembling them.
So right now in formats that could be interested in playing that card instead of UR having the best companion it has none. Good job. :/
I think the point being made in this thread is that cheating Lutri's deckbuilding has little difference from cheating EDH deckbuilding rules or running five copies of your best card in regular 60 card constructed. Either way, the cheater can, theoretically, make in-game choices that hide the cheat, but the ease in which that can be revealed makes deckbuilding cheats unappetizing to all but the dumbest of cheaters. Even without a full deck check, anything that the opponent does that gives them information will the reveal the illegal deckbuilding and get the cheater DQ'd in a competitive setting and ostracized in a casual one. Any type of peek, discard, or mill will do this, and then there are cards that let a player search their opponent's deck like Surgical Extraction.
To reiterate, cheating in deckbuilding has existed as long as there have been deckbuilding rules, has always been able to benefit cheaters, and has always been incredibly transparent because of how many ways opponents have to expose the cheaters. The companions do not change this.
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Banned in Brawl: Lutri, the Spellchaser
In the case of the companion card Lutri, the Spellchaser, the deck-building restriction is to play "singleton," with no more than one copy of each nonland card in your deck. The idea is to reward a player for choosing a diversity of different cards rather than multiple copies of the most efficient card for the job. This makes a lot of sense in most formats, where it often dramatically alters the way a player would choose to build their deck in exchange for starting the game with an extra powerful card.
In Brawl, however, the Singleton deck-building restriction is already built into the format rules. This means that there is no trade-off against how one would normally build a deck. Any deck including both blue and red would benefit from including Lutri at no deck-building cost. This isn't in line with the design intent of the companion mechanic, and we believe it would create a large imbalance between decks capable of including Lutri and those that can't. Therefore, we've decided to begin Ikoria's release with Lutri, the Spellchaser banned in Brawl.
This isn't an oversight or a case where we underestimated a card that was too powerful. In fact, discussions surrounding the legality of this card in Singleton formats began early in the design process. As we playtested with Lutri, we decided that the fun deck-building challenge and opportunity for self-expression it presents in other Magic formats clearly made the design worth printing, even if it didn't make sense in Brawl.
Banning cards in any format is something we take seriously, and it has been and will continue to be a rare situation in which we ban a card before its release. In this case, we felt an exception was clearly warranted based on the design goals of the card.
Other companion creatures will still be usable in Brawl and may even be chosen as your companion (in addition to Brawl's usual Commander mechanics). We're looking forward to the release of Ikoria and hope you enjoy building around and playing with Ikoria's companion creatures as much as we have!
Oh look a buff to tainted pact decks. Also yeah, thats all folks for changes.
its now banned in 2 formats, and its restriction is so limiting there almost zero chance it's going to show up anywhere else given the nature of variance and how hard decks want consistency.
I agree. I think it is also uniquely bad in that your oppeont can not really check if you follow the requirement - you need judge checks for it. Every other companion can easily be checked (except theoretically the one that requires you to pick a nonland type) on a card by card level, like if you play the the br companion (requiring odd converted mana costs), then you can only cheat with it by never playing any of your even costed cards - thus non of those cards matters for the game and you are better of by following the constraimt. Here, you can cheat by simply keeping the second copy in hand. Like, say card X is a two card combo with Lutri, then it clearly increases the likelyhood of you winning if you play 4 of card X andd just never play a second copy, ensuring none can see you cheat, outside judge checks.
There is a logic to that but couldn't players break singleton in Commander in the same way or run 6x a spell in constructed?
I don't know about all that. If their intent is to continue imitating Hearthstone, there was about a year gap between the even / odd deck SNAFU and the most recent batch of highlander decks, most of which are still quite viable in standard. Don't put it past WotC to really push these deck restrictions in the not-too-distant future.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Nothing
(Wizards already said brawl would do the same for lutri due to the companion ability)
Yes, but the EDH Rules Committee manages the actual banned list for commander, not Wizards. They announced their decision on April 2nd:
https://mtgcommander.net/
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Ofcoarse lutri is it’s because the companion is a 100§ approved for any deck and it’s a dualcaster mage so any deck would do it
What does Tainted Pact have to do with Brawl bannings?
You never had to check if the opponent's deck had 5 copies of a card of a minimum of 60. You start with their companion revealed, so you know which criteria all his cards have to meet. Once he plays an illegal card, slap a nearby judge on opponent's face.
True, but you need something like 8 of a card to match the difference between singleton and two of each card... Also, it is plausible that there is a 2 cards combo with Lutri which was the issue I focused on, which makes it quite different from a normal deck situration
Also, the second part WAS my point; for the others, you cheating with them will not actually help (since you cant play the card you cheat with). Lutri can not be checked essily and you just have to be a bit careful to cheat with it.
If you've ever done tournament play, you would know that deck lists are submitted in advance and random deck checks are performed by judges. So in no real sense is anyone at risk of being bamboozled.
As I mentioned, you can just keep the second copy in hand - that way they typically cant catch you - outside discard effects. It hurts a bit, but if you say play 2 of each card, you are still very unlikely to see both and in that case it does not hurt at all.
Deck checks: note that the requirement is on your main deck only. You can have cards in sb breaking the singleton rule (if you followed the rules you could then sb in and not play with your companion or you could use it as a wishboard in older formats that has wishes). Failure to de sideboard is typically game loss (I imagine this stuff will get you DQed though if it just smells like this). Thus, you just put your duplicates in sb, shuffle them in and then “forget” to de-sideboard. Heck, deck checks are typically only performed before first game, so you can cheat this way in the second an third game and be fairly safe. Note that this is a new problem. It is not the same thing as cheating by playing more than 4 of a card, because that can be caught by a standaed deck check. You might say that you just check if they sb anything in, but quite many people -as I am sure you know, since you seemingly have played in tournaments - hides the number they sb by shuffling in their full sb and then removing cards. Therefore, yes, you can bambozle people with this...
(Just in case someone missunderstand me, I am only playing online, so I really really cant cheat with this - I am trying to see what kind of problems this card can cause and no, it is just this card with that issue really it is not the mechanic)
Do you mean checks are only done in the first game of a match, or the first match? Because checks are done at the beginning of the match and that's the only time it matters. They are done randomly for every match throughout the tournament. You can't "forget to unsideboard" and get away with it if you get chosen for a deck check.
I can tell you play online, because you talk like you haven't been to a lot of paper tournaments.
Cheating deck construction rules are very rare. Most cheating is gameplay based.
I can guarantee you that any issues with companions are overblown. I'm not saying someone somewhere won't try. But let's be honest, none of the companions are very competitive and are unlikely to see much tournament play. They're a gimmick for arena players to play with and that's it.
Edit: second copy in hand is risky if you're aiming to cheat. Your forgetting about discard and Thoughtseize effects. Also, judges roam and observe.
I am saying that you CAN cheat by sbing in extra copies in game 2 and 3 (note, Lutri, like the others, specify a rule for your starting deck and those extra copies in sb is fine) and still play your companion and as I also mentioned before, you cant see that ppl sb something in because they just mix their full sb into main deck and extract some cards. This is a new problem! You can cheat on deck construction in game 2 and 3 only!
I agree that in practice it wont be too important because as Lutri is not that strong (I disagree with that you said that none of them are that strong. The ug one will be very strong in standard fires - one of the top decks - they are mostly following the rule anyway and could use more cards - but luckily it is one of those you cant cheat with)
(I considered being quite sacastic abou me overlooking discard effects in regards to second copy in hand cheating. I literally wrote that the only way to catch you keeping a second copy in hand is discard effects. They aint common in standard anyway).
I guess you are right in that judges can see a second copy while walking around, but judges tries hard not to interfer in games without reason (which should be clear) and if you play with your cards close to your body or play with some of the cards in your hand lying face down on the table (both something people actually do) they wont be able to see your cards in hand while walking around. Besides that if you only cheat wit instants or sorceries, people typically play with their gy in a stack, so the judges cant actually see it unless it is the top card of your gy and in your hand.
But just to note, of course you CAN cheat. I've never said you can't. But there are always ways to cheat, and new ways with almost every set. I would say the most sketchy standard environment for shady plays was Khans of Tarkir with both manifest and morph at the same time. There was a lot of room for abuse, yet it all worked out. I'm just an optimist.
With all companions except Lutri you can verify if opponent is not cheating as soon as offending card is put on the stack (or earlier if you have ways to reveal hidden information eg Duress). But with the otter you cannot do this in all situations. Opponent can still cast rule-breaking spell and you have no way of verifying if it breaks companion restriction.
Consider the following scenario: opponent casts Impact Tremors, casts Release to the Wind, casts Lutri. Wins the game. At no point you had a chance to verify that opponent did not cheat by having multiple copies of those cards while opponent could increase the probability of assembling them.
So right now in formats that could be interested in playing that card instead of UR having the best companion it has none. Good job. :/
I think the point being made in this thread is that cheating Lutri's deckbuilding has little difference from cheating EDH deckbuilding rules or running five copies of your best card in regular 60 card constructed. Either way, the cheater can, theoretically, make in-game choices that hide the cheat, but the ease in which that can be revealed makes deckbuilding cheats unappetizing to all but the dumbest of cheaters. Even without a full deck check, anything that the opponent does that gives them information will the reveal the illegal deckbuilding and get the cheater DQ'd in a competitive setting and ostracized in a casual one. Any type of peek, discard, or mill will do this, and then there are cards that let a player search their opponent's deck like Surgical Extraction.
To reiterate, cheating in deckbuilding has existed as long as there have been deckbuilding rules, has always been able to benefit cheaters, and has always been incredibly transparent because of how many ways opponents have to expose the cheaters. The companions do not change this.