Folks, when you say "secondary market" remember that you're talking about a lot of your flgs's that power the entire ecosystem of this card game to begin with. When you go on tcgplayer and pick up a bunch of singles those are primarily stores doing the reselling through the tcgplayer interface. If wizards ever decided "to heck with the secondary market we're gonna sell cheap singles ourself now" flgs's will just stop carrying magic and the entire house of cards will collapse.
I don't at all disagree that the secondary market is incredibly stupid in terms of actually playing this card game instead of playing stock market with cards but it is what it is and there's no real way to back out of it without upsetting a lot of livelihoods. Selling singles is one of the few things that makes a real margin for stores. Traditional games have a surprisingly small margin on them. This isn't like, skincare products with a 500% markup, it's paper products with maybe 20%. Talk to your local store owner about it.
Those basic lands are ******* amazing looking... can't believe you only get one of each for ******* $30
They're snow lands. It's on par with how much you'd be spending on the open market, if not a bit less.
That is a problem though.
Wizards has a number of ways to go about rectifying the high prices of cards. They can do what they have said they have been doing and print cards they think people want or cards that fit with whatever set they are making but realize people who already have the cards don't want to lose value. This doesn't seem to work because it doesn't do anything. In order to really make things accessible, they need to print more copies or put the packs of cards at a reasonable price point. Something they are not willing to do. Plus, there are too many cards people want and not enough avenues to print them.
Or, they can ignore the secondary market, and the value of people's collections entirely, and just print these supplemental sets to demand. No more limited print runs. No more high cost packs. They seem reluctant to do this to because they don't want people to lose focus of the "cheaper" format of Standard so getting reprint sets always command a premium. But this would arguably be a pretty decent route for accessibility.
Or, they do what they have done here with these "Secret Lair" boxes: they print cards and price them based on the secondary market. That is, they have given us sets that are priced based on the individual cards' values on the secondary market. This is Wizards saying "we don't pay attention to the secondary market (wink, wink)". This is especially egregious with Bitterblossom as they are selling us a Single for lower than, but still close to, current market value. There is a reason this card is the only one included in that box.
This is why I think arguing that these boxes are a "good deal" misses the point of people's complaints entirely. This product, if successful, creates a conflict of interest within Wizards. There will now be a reason not to reprint cards to make them accessible. They are better off *not* making things accessible so the prices jump. With this product, they could cease major reprints going forward. Instead, and the fetchlands are a good example for this right now, they could simply allow prices to skyrocket out of control and then come in with their own product for cheaper.
If they neglect to reprint a Pioneer staple and it gets to $100 over the course of the next 3 years. And then they come out with a product that gives us a single, "special edition" copy of that card for $50. That is certainly a "good deal" but why is that card $100 to begin with? At what point do we no longer accept their excuse not to reprint as simply "we couldn't find room for it in a set" and start seeing it as "we wanted it to get high enough where we could make money selling that same card direct to players".
Now, as this is the beginning of this product line, it is difficult to go too far down the rabbit hole on what they will do. This is only speculation but this opens the doors to some pretty scummy stuff Wizards could do.
So, no, I don't think getting 5 foil basic lands is a deal since there should have been more than 2 reprints of snow basics in the last 20 years (and definitely should not have been in a limited, overpriced product). I don't believe getting a Single, Alt-Art Bitterblossom for $30 is a good thing just because the current version in $40.
There is a way to do these products right. Releasing the basic land pack with 2 of each would have been more acceptable. 3 of each I think would have been the sweet spot. Perhaps more than that is giving a bit too much, but they are still basics that are only expensive because of scarcity. This product doesn't change that and only exacerbates it by setting an artificial floor on these lands right out of the gate.
The kaleidoscope box is a good way to do this too. Overlord was $30+ before this box and they gave us a couple other good cards with it. It won't drastically reduce the buy in, but it does a lot to lower existing prices. Overloard is already down about 50% from where it started. That is a good thing for accessibility.
We can enjoy these products for what they are and buy the ones we want to buy. Overall, while I don't feel any but two of them are worth it (and I am being very generous with the Cats one since the cards themselves are worth less than half what they are charging) others may like certain ones for different reasons. But the Basic Land box is the most damning of them all. There is nothing special about them and there is nothing that dictates that price beyond what the current market says because of lack of supply. These could have arguably been in a Holiday Gift Box and would make perfect sense (in NA anyway) as Winter = Snow. But Wizards chose to put them in this product, where people need to spend hundreds to get enough for a deck when they could have done so much more with them. If only they would truly ignore the secondary market like they want us to think they do.
It's not that these aren't a good deal, based on current market prices (at least most of these). It is that wotc is just exactly meeting what the current, inflated, market might be for these cards.
Fortunately, I feel like none of these are "must-haves" for all but the most die hard collector. So I'm actually relieved that I won't need to participate.
Those basic lands are ******* amazing looking... can't believe you only get one of each for ******* $30
They're snow lands. It's on par with how much you'd be spending on the open market, if not a bit less.
Who wants one of each though??? People want more than just one. It's more like something shiny to put in your binder when it's made like this so you can go "look at these cool lands!" instead of actually use them.
Those basic lands are ******* amazing looking... can't believe you only get one of each for ******* $30
They're snow lands. It's on par with how much you'd be spending on the open market, if not a bit less.
Who wants one of each though??? People want more than just one.
Are they preventing people from placing an order for multiple? I was suspecting that they hope the people who want 20 of each... order 20 copies of that drop. Is that not the case?
Those basic lands are ******* amazing looking... can't believe you only get one of each for ******* $30
They're snow lands. It's on par with how much you'd be spending on the open market, if not a bit less.
Who wants one of each though??? People want more than just one.
Are they preventing people from placing an order for multiple? I was suspecting that they hope the people who want 20 of each... order 20 copies of that drop. Is that not the case?
Of course not, but it's still ******* ridiculous, but I have a pretty good feeling neither of us will change each other's mind on this case, so **** it.
I would have been all over it if they included a couple of non foil for each land. I honestly wouldn't even want the foil versions if it was just a stack of them, but I ain't touching that ***** now. It's still going to be sold out instantly though, so what the **** do I know.
They’re not going to sell out of any of these boxes in the 24 hour period they’re on sale. They will honor every order that’s registered in that 24 hr period.
<insert picture of captain Ahab hunting for whales with MaRo face photoshopped over his>
WotC is lately trying to introduce products which only aim to syphon as much money from the playerbase as possible. Mythic editions, lairs, mystery boosters, those use the same "suprise mechanic" to do this. I'm disgusted by that blatant cash grab and my hopes that supplemental products from next year will be good for players (reprints of chase cards to increase staples availability due to lowering prices) are more or less dead.
<insert picture of captain Ahab hunting for whales with MaRo face photoshopped over his>
WotC is lately trying to introduce products which only aim to syphon as much money from the playerbase as possible. Mythic editions, lairs, mystery boosters, those use the same "suprise mechanic" to do this. I'm disgusted by that blatant cash grab and my hopes that supplemental products from next year will be good for players (reprints of chase cards to increase staples availability due to lowering prices) are more or less dead.
It’s a commander set coming next year “command legends” I think we are gonna see the most amazing reprints and new cards there there’s 70 new legendaries (it’s give or take but about down in the middle of never gotten a Card old lore legends/new legends/2.0 legendaries who have a card already)
And on top of that the next from the vault it’s commander focused with green commander staples we believe chord of callingis one of the, based on one of the pictures
And to go even further than that 9 commander decks for commander 2020
Commander 2020 and Ikoria lair of behemoths are coming out at the exact same time because the Ikoria themed decks (just like throne of eldraine did) they are commander decks instead and they’re 5 of them again 71 new cards most out of all commander sets
Then in re-re return to zendikar 2 commander decks there it’s almost all reprints in those
Then another 2 decks in commander legends same as zendikar mostly reprints
<insert picture of captain Ahab hunting for whales with MaRo face photoshopped over his>
WotC is lately trying to introduce products which only aim to syphon as much money from the playerbase as possible. Mythic editions, lairs, mystery boosters, those use the same "suprise mechanic" to do this. I'm disgusted by that blatant cash grab and my hopes that supplemental products from next year will be good for players (reprints of chase cards to increase staples availability due to lowering prices) are more or less dead.
<insert picture of captain Ahab hunting for whales with MaRo face photoshopped over his>
WotC is lately trying to introduce products which only aim to syphon as much money from the playerbase as possible. Mythic editions, lairs, mystery boosters, those use the same "suprise mechanic" to do this. I'm disgusted by that blatant cash grab and my hopes that supplemental products from next year will be good for players (reprints of chase cards to increase staples availability due to lowering prices) are more or less dead.
<insert picture of captain Ahab hunting for whales with MaRo face photoshopped over his>
WotC is lately trying to introduce products which only aim to syphon as much money from the playerbase as possible. Mythic editions, lairs, mystery boosters, those use the same "suprise mechanic" to do this. I'm disgusted by that blatant cash grab and my hopes that supplemental products from next year will be good for players (reprints of chase cards to increase staples availability due to lowering prices) are more or less dead.
If you don’t like this product, it’s perfectly understandable. I didn’t think it would be for me either until they revealed what Kaleidoscope Killers was. But on the other hand it’s extremely easy to ignore these box releases. It will never affect your mtg playing years if you do choose to ignore this.
I mean on a single-consumer level, ignoring this doesn’t hurt anyone. But the raised - and valid - concern, is that WotC is clearly printing cards for direct resale based on their secondary market value. Which raises all sorts of red flags people are well within their rights to discuss - be it WotC losing the support of the companies that sustain the secondary market (and buy tonnes of product they might stop buying if they lose faith in their supplier undercutting them with reprints), to concerns that WotC might now deliberately withhold reprints from randomized sets to make secondary market prices go up so they can issue high dollar value reprints direct.
These are discussionworthy concerns whether any single consumer is saying yes or no with their wallet to this instance.
Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
<insert picture of captain Ahab hunting for whales with MaRo face photoshopped over his>
WotC is lately trying to introduce products which only aim to syphon as much money from the playerbase as possible. Mythic editions, lairs, mystery boosters, those use the same "suprise mechanic" to do this. I'm disgusted by that blatant cash grab and my hopes that supplemental products from next year will be good for players (reprints of chase cards to increase staples availability due to lowering prices) are more or less dead.
It’s a commander set coming next year “command legends” I think we are gonna see the most amazing reprints and new cards there there’s 70 new legendaries (it’s give or take but about down in the middle of never gotten a Card old lore legends/new legends/2.0 legendaries who have a card already)
And on top of that the next from the vault it’s commander focused with green commander staples we believe chord of callingis one of the, based on one of the pictures
And to go even further than that 9 commander decks for commander 2020
Commander 2020 and Ikoria lair of behemoths are coming out at the exact same time because the Ikoria themed decks (just like throne of eldraine did) they are commander decks instead and they’re 5 of them again 71 new cards most out of all commander sets
Then in re-re return to zendikar 2 commander decks there it’s almost all reprints in those
Then another 2 decks in commander legends same as zendikar mostly reprints
I understand your position and as much as I would like to be optimistic, releases of last products does not make me so. You seems to be making a lot of assumptions about the quality and contents of future products but I don't see what are those based on. If you have any hard data on actual contents of those products please share it with me.
After reading that commander announcement I had the complately different feelings. For example "71 new cards are not also found in Draft Boosters" make me immediately think "Brawl decks" / "Arcane Signet". It is a very hard to pull off balancing act to make supplemental product with new cards that will be interesting and avoid power creep at the same time. WotC don't have excellent track record doing that.
(...)
WotC might now deliberately withhold reprints from randomized sets to make secondary market prices go up so they can issue high dollar value reprints direct.
This is exactly what makes me worried about future supplemental products. Why would they put sought after reprints in new products while they can put there sought after new cards? What if Lairs sales numbers show that people are willing to buy products for single cards if the price is below current market price? What incentive do they have then to put more pricey reprints among reprints in those commander products they announced?
Gavin said they think they had found a place they can reprint Oubliette. So expect it, Dark Ritual & Scathe Zombies ,just those and nothing else, in a lair for $39.99 next year. So there’s your ABU specific lair.
Gavin said they think they had found a place they can reprint Oubliette. So expect it, Dark Ritual & Scathe Zombies ,just those and nothing else, in a lair for $39.99 next year. So there’s your ABU specific lair.
$39.99? Obviously due to the foil full art Scathe Zombies.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
Most likely never, unless you want all the laces and blessing reprinted as rares again.
Heh. Laces and embraces.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
40 dollar for 3 cards ? / and another set has 5 for 30... tell me again you dont look at the secondary market wizards
and here we are with another premium product. thank god, cause magic players dont know where to go with all their money. and the last premium product is already 2 months old... doesnt feel special anymore, the players need something new.
the thing they forget is, if they want to make some special cards copying the alternation of cards from artists, they dont get that people like to have the unique cards... if everyone can buy them, they are not special anymore. ("so you got a full art xxx... yea, i got that too")
the price is ridicolous, and with all these premium products i dont get why they still had to increase the normal display price. i dont get why there are still soooo many people willing to buy this. but ok, if you dont know anything better to do with 40 dollar than buying alternate arts of existing cards, enjoy it.
40 dollar for 3 cards ? / and another set has 5 for 30... tell me again you dont look at the secondary market wizards
and here we are with another premium product. thank god, cause magic players dont know where to go with all their money. and the last premium product is already 2 months old... doesnt feel special anymore, the players need something new.
the thing they forget is, if they want to make some special cards copying the alternation of cards from artists, they dont get that people like to have the unique cards... if everyone can buy them, they are not special anymore. ("so you got a full art xxx... yea, i got that too")
the price is ridicolous, and with all these premium products i dont get why they still had to increase the normal display price. i dont get why there are still soooo many people willing to buy this. but ok, if you dont know anything better to do with 40 dollar than buying alternate arts of existing cards, enjoy it.
Actually that 40$ with 3 cards (kaldeiscope killers I assume)
That value fo those cards since they are foil 40$ is only a Weasley 4th of the value of those 3 cards
Kaleidoscope Killers is an absolute beast of a bargain deal
Eldraine Wonderland is a neutral purchase (until the secondary market gets too much)
OMG Kitties is bad for the MSRP (but fine in secondary market)
Bitterblossom Dreams is a bargain
Restless in Peace is a minor loss
Serum Visions is a minor loss (but its only a one time purchase)
<Explosion Sounds> [see OMG Kitties]
Kaleidoscope Killers is an absolute beast of a bargain deal
Eldraine Wonderland is a neutral purchase (until the secondary market gets too much)
OMG Kitties is bad for the MSRP (but fine in secondary market)
Bitterblossom Dreams is a bargain
Restless in Peace is a minor loss
Serum Visions is a minor loss (but its only a one time purchase)
<Explosion Sounds> [see OMG Kitties]
Agreed but eldraine wonderland is really horidenous people would rather get multiples of basics rather than 1 of each probably like (depends on format and deck) probably 7-17ish (17 my best guess for number of basics in mono colored edh decks but might be less)
So there has been a new development. Apparently randomly distributed throughout the orders for Lairs are packs that contain stained glass planeswalkers. That its also possible to get duplicates.
I don't at all disagree that the secondary market is incredibly stupid in terms of actually playing this card game instead of playing stock market with cards but it is what it is and there's no real way to back out of it without upsetting a lot of livelihoods. Selling singles is one of the few things that makes a real margin for stores. Traditional games have a surprisingly small margin on them. This isn't like, skincare products with a 500% markup, it's paper products with maybe 20%. Talk to your local store owner about it.
It's not that these aren't a good deal, based on current market prices (at least most of these). It is that wotc is just exactly meeting what the current, inflated, market might be for these cards.
Fortunately, I feel like none of these are "must-haves" for all but the most die hard collector. So I'm actually relieved that I won't need to participate.
Who wants one of each though??? People want more than just one. It's more like something shiny to put in your binder when it's made like this so you can go "look at these cool lands!" instead of actually use them.
Are they preventing people from placing an order for multiple? I was suspecting that they hope the people who want 20 of each... order 20 copies of that drop. Is that not the case?
I have no idea how they will control that, though.
Of course not, but it's still ******* ridiculous, but I have a pretty good feeling neither of us will change each other's mind on this case, so **** it.
I would have been all over it if they included a couple of non foil for each land. I honestly wouldn't even want the foil versions if it was just a stack of them, but I ain't touching that ***** now. It's still going to be sold out instantly though, so what the **** do I know.
They’re not going to sell out of any of these boxes in the 24 hour period they’re on sale. They will honor every order that’s registered in that 24 hr period.
WotC is lately trying to introduce products which only aim to syphon as much money from the playerbase as possible. Mythic editions, lairs, mystery boosters, those use the same "suprise mechanic" to do this. I'm disgusted by that blatant cash grab and my hopes that supplemental products from next year will be good for players (reprints of chase cards to increase staples availability due to lowering prices) are more or less dead.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/big-things-are-coming-commander-2020-2019-10-30
It’s a commander set coming next year “command legends” I think we are gonna see the most amazing reprints and new cards there there’s 70 new legendaries (it’s give or take but about down in the middle of never gotten a Card old lore legends/new legends/2.0 legendaries who have a card already)
And on top of that the next from the vault it’s commander focused with green commander staples we believe chord of callingis one of the, based on one of the pictures
And to go even further than that 9 commander decks for commander 2020
Commander 2020 and Ikoria lair of behemoths are coming out at the exact same time because the Ikoria themed decks (just like throne of eldraine did) they are commander decks instead and they’re 5 of them again 71 new cards most out of all commander sets
Then in re-re return to zendikar 2 commander decks there it’s almost all reprints in those
Then another 2 decks in commander legends same as zendikar mostly reprints
If you don’t like this product, it’s perfectly understandable. I didn’t think it would be for me either until they revealed what Kaleidoscope Killers was. But on the other hand it’s extremely easy to ignore these box releases. It will never affect your mtg playing years if you do choose to ignore this.
These are discussionworthy concerns whether any single consumer is saying yes or no with their wallet to this instance.
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
I understand your position and as much as I would like to be optimistic, releases of last products does not make me so. You seems to be making a lot of assumptions about the quality and contents of future products but I don't see what are those based on. If you have any hard data on actual contents of those products please share it with me.
After reading that commander announcement I had the complately different feelings. For example "71 new cards are not also found in Draft Boosters" make me immediately think "Brawl decks" / "Arcane Signet". It is a very hard to pull off balancing act to make supplemental product with new cards that will be interesting and avoid power creep at the same time. WotC don't have excellent track record doing that.
This is exactly what makes me worried about future supplemental products. Why would they put sought after reprints in new products while they can put there sought after new cards? What if Lairs sales numbers show that people are willing to buy products for single cards if the price is below current market price? What incentive do they have then to put more pricey reprints among reprints in those commander products they announced?
Draft My Cube!
As to the foiling, I am not sure we actually know yet, though the lands didn't quite look like FtV foiling in the video.
Gavin said they think they had found a place they can reprint Oubliette. So expect it, Dark Ritual & Scathe Zombies ,just those and nothing else, in a lair for $39.99 next year. So there’s your ABU specific lair.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
Most likely never, unless you want all the laces and blessing reprinted as rares again.
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
Actually that 40$ with 3 cards (kaldeiscope killers I assume)
That value fo those cards since they are foil 40$ is only a Weasley 4th of the value of those 3 cards
Foil reaper king 70$ foil sliver overlord (non premium deck) 83$ And the Ur-dragon is 10$
For those playing at home that’s aproximatly 160$ worth of cards for only 40$
And these price could be higher in the secret lair versions due to scarcity and sought after art if doesn’t get reprinted in that art again
Eldraine Wonderland is a neutral purchase (until the secondary market gets too much)
OMG Kitties is bad for the MSRP (but fine in secondary market)
Bitterblossom Dreams is a bargain
Restless in Peace is a minor loss
Serum Visions is a minor loss (but its only a one time purchase)
<Explosion Sounds> [see OMG Kitties]
Agreed but eldraine wonderland is really horidenous people would rather get multiples of basics rather than 1 of each probably like (depends on format and deck) probably 7-17ish (17 my best guess for number of basics in mono colored edh decks but might be less)
Source 1: https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1201583704998633472
Source 2: https://twitter.com/efropoker/status/1201583507186819072
Source 3: https://twitter.com/Marshall_LR/status/1201588543073722368
Now a stain glass art of the war of the spark walkers are in these