Wizards is so caught up in the planeswalker modelling and iterating that they don't see how ugly these things are, and this is speaking as someone who gladly windmilled Oko, Liliana and others. They really need to add loyalty removal to spells, ETB effects or attack triggers before more stuff gets out of hand.
I mean, Theros is coming back and allegedly you can re-cast the planswalker?
I'm building Pioneer Sultai so at least I did not lose much from that point of view. Here's hoping my Oko and OuaT stay legal there.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Duel Commander (Kari Zev, Skyship Raider and Nissa, Vastwood Seer) and goofy Commander builds.
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa on Saturday afternoons or at Duel Commander at the Westboro Barley Mow (Duel Commander) on (very) occasional Monday evenings.
I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.
I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.
The more I read about play design and the more I think a lot of people's hate is super misguided. Play design DOES NOT design cards with the purpose of sales. That is NOT their role. I don't believe for a second that that's their main goal when designing cards.
Reading the last article about play design really helps puts things in perspective, in my opinion. What's been happening is that they have actually powered down standard quite a bit but have pushed a few cards really far in one direction. So that's why some of these seem so egregious. To be completely honest, it's better to push the envelop than to hold back. Sometimes things come together super well and other times, they don't. They have no way to predict what the meta will look like (consider that there's only like 20 of them vs the collective hive mind when it comes to play testing). Mistakes will slip through. The problem, and i hope they scale this back, is 3 mana planeswalkers. These tend to be too strong when you have 1 drop acceleration available in standard. Hell even without acceleration, we all know how strong 3 mana walkers are (too efficient). If you bumped both Teferi and Oko up to 4 mana, they are nowhere near as oppressive (as your opponent will have had time to build a board).
Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.
I understand that some players may feel frustrated with this, but without the ability to "nerf" cards, this is the only way.
Veil of summer is an insanely overpowered card. It's a 1 mana "cryptic command". Hell, it's even begun to see main deck play.
Narset was actually a problem in vintage (like a serious one) but i'm surprised they care enough to have done that.
W6 doesn't surprise me. The interaction with wasteland is oppressive. However, I think this is too bad because it keeps mana bases honest, which is pretty cool. This does provide an alternative for players who want to enter the format. If your deck is good vs wasteland, you stand a chance vs all the big decks.
Green has been pushed quite a bit since the last Innistrad. I think every color will get it's time to shine. Eventually, that might even be white!
I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.
I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.
The more I read about play design and the more I think a lot of people's hate is super misguided. Play design DOES NOT design cards with the purpose of sales. That is NOT their role. I don't believe for a second that that's their main goal when designing cards.
Indeed. I'm ready to believe that a for-profit company did something bad for customers just for the sake of profit, but as they say, why assume malice for what is adequately explained by stupidity, or rather, in this case, simple human fallibility? It's a pretty bold claim to suggest WotC is so deliberately screwing with players, after all. That would be a rather risky move on their part. Just the fact that players are so annoyed with this situation to feel like this must be some deliberate slight against them tells you that it might not be ideal for WotC. Especially if someone leaked anything that substantiated that— can you imagine the fallout after that?
Reading the last article about play design really helps puts things in perspective, in my opinion. What's been happening is that they have actually powered down standard quite a bit but have pushed a few cards really far in one direction. So that's why some of these seem so egregious. To be completely honest, it's better to push the envelop than to hold back. Sometimes things come together super well and other times, they don't. They have no way to predict what the meta will look like (consider that there's only like 20 of them vs the collective hive mind when it comes to play testing). Mistakes will slip through.
Exactly. I don't know why anyone would be surprised that this happens. It happens with like, every game. Most game communities seem to think the devs are incompetent at balancing, or have nefarious ulterior motives. You can criticize shortcomings without jumping to a conspiracy theory or claiming to be smarter than the entire dev team, guys. Trust me, it's possible. In fact, it would make your criticisms a lot more impactful.
The problem, and i hope they scale this back, is 3 mana planeswalkers. These tend to be too strong when you have 1 drop acceleration available in standard. Hell even without acceleration, we all know how strong 3 mana walkers are (too efficient). If you bumped both Teferi and Oko up to 4 mana, they are nowhere near as oppressive (as your opponent will have had time to build a board).
Yes. They should have slightly more options for interactivity with planeswalkers too.
Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.
Agree. Bannings are annoying in losing cards, but if it opens up more cards to playability and reduces the need to buy into a select set of ridiculously expensive cards then it's easily worth it on that front.
Green has been pushed quite a bit since the last Innistrad. I think every color will get it's time to shine. Eventually, that might even be white!
I remember a time when white-blue decks were the monster of the metagame. White will have its time. Hell, after these bannings, white-blue looks to be in a pretty good position again.
I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.
I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.
The "pushed cards" theory would explain how Wizards thought Throne of Eldraine's power level was pushed despite our fairly collective initial impression that it was powered down, but I believe we did not think that Oko would be solidly playable in any format other than Standard. My initial playtesting of Oko in Modern, and me being unable to conclude whether he or Teferi, Time Raveler was the better card in a deck that could support either and needed the anti-hate, didn't help matters.
I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.
I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.
The more I read about play design and the more I think a lot of people's hate is super misguided. Play design DOES NOT design cards with the purpose of sales. That is NOT their role. I don't believe for a second that that's their main goal when designing cards.
Indeed. I'm ready to believe that a for-profit company did something bad for customers just for the sake of profit, but as they say, why assume malice for what is adequately explained by stupidity, or rather, in this case, simple human fallibility? It's a pretty bold claim to suggest WotC is so deliberately screwing with players, after all. That would be a rather risky move on their part. Just the fact that players are so annoyed with this situation to feel like this must be some deliberate slight against them tells you that it might not be ideal for WotC. Especially if someone leaked anything that substantiated that— can you imagine the fallout after that?
Reading the last article about play design really helps puts things in perspective, in my opinion. What's been happening is that they have actually powered down standard quite a bit but have pushed a few cards really far in one direction. So that's why some of these seem so egregious. To be completely honest, it's better to push the envelop than to hold back. Sometimes things come together super well and other times, they don't. They have no way to predict what the meta will look like (consider that there's only like 20 of them vs the collective hive mind when it comes to play testing). Mistakes will slip through.
Exactly. I don't know why anyone would be surprised that this happens. It happens with like, every game. Most game communities seem to think the devs are incompetent at balancing, or have nefarious ulterior motives. You can criticize shortcomings without jumping to a conspiracy theory or claiming to be smarter than the entire dev team, guys. Trust me, it's possible. In fact, it would make your criticisms a lot more impactful.
Small brains like conspiracies.
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.
I wasn't aware of this. Are there any cards they regret not banning from past standard environments?
Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.
I wasn't aware of this. Are there any cards they regret not banning from past standard environments?
CoCo and Rally easily come to mind, maybe Thoughtseize in the RTR-THS era too...
Frankly, I think the architecture of Castle Garenbrig is looking a lot better now that one of those elks turned back into The Great Henge. It just wasn't the same without it.
Agreed with others in the thread, standard needs either weaker walkers or better answers.
Why don't pestilence effects hit walkers? Why are red direct damage spells targeting either player or planeswalkers but rarely the option to hit either?
Why isn't oblivion ring in every coreset going forward?
Red simply needs more/any ways to steal planeswalkers, so having them at ultimate loyality becomes a real gamble.
Being able to steal Oko and -5 it to death on your own would be totally enough if red could steal them that easily.
Fight mechanics should by default be able to target planeswalkers too.
Blue/Black have reasonable enough answers to planeswalkers.
Artifacts should get a Null Rod against planeswalkers, a super efficient hate that nails them all away (the Spyglass is just way too terrible at that job).
White could have an hate-enchantment thats Humility for planeswalkers, make them 1/1 creatures and lose all abilities.
Even lands could have something that removes loyality from planeswalkers, maybe with XX Tap, remove X counters from a planeswalker.
----
All such things would help that every color has reasonable answers.
Yeah. Especially when the only real counter to him was really Noxious Grasp. Which meant you were playing black and the deck that specifically countered Oko decks. Sure there are other decks you can play at an LGS, but if you actually wanted to win tournies, you were either playing Oko or Anti-Oko.
Which was basically Infinite Cats Vs Cars all over again from Kaladesh. Which was also riddled with the problem of "Not enough good answers" as a matter of fact. For if you were playing black then as well, it meant you were playing Cars because of Fatal Push.
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I mean, Theros is coming back and allegedly you can re-cast the planswalker?
I'm building Pioneer Sultai so at least I did not lose much from that point of view. Here's hoping my Oko and OuaT stay legal there.
Currently focusing on Duel Commander (Kari Zev, Skyship Raider and Nissa, Vastwood Seer) and goofy Commander builds.
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa on Saturday afternoons or at Duel Commander at the Westboro Barley Mow (Duel Commander) on (very) occasional Monday evenings.
There are 4 banned cards in the current Standard.
For the last ~8 months of Kaladesh-Amonkhet-Ixalan-Dominaria-M19 standard, there were 7 cards on the Standard ban list.
The more I read about play design and the more I think a lot of people's hate is super misguided. Play design DOES NOT design cards with the purpose of sales. That is NOT their role. I don't believe for a second that that's their main goal when designing cards.
Reading the last article about play design really helps puts things in perspective, in my opinion. What's been happening is that they have actually powered down standard quite a bit but have pushed a few cards really far in one direction. So that's why some of these seem so egregious. To be completely honest, it's better to push the envelop than to hold back. Sometimes things come together super well and other times, they don't. They have no way to predict what the meta will look like (consider that there's only like 20 of them vs the collective hive mind when it comes to play testing). Mistakes will slip through. The problem, and i hope they scale this back, is 3 mana planeswalkers. These tend to be too strong when you have 1 drop acceleration available in standard. Hell even without acceleration, we all know how strong 3 mana walkers are (too efficient). If you bumped both Teferi and Oko up to 4 mana, they are nowhere near as oppressive (as your opponent will have had time to build a board).
Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.
I understand that some players may feel frustrated with this, but without the ability to "nerf" cards, this is the only way.
Veil of summer is an insanely overpowered card. It's a 1 mana "cryptic command". Hell, it's even begun to see main deck play.
Narset was actually a problem in vintage (like a serious one) but i'm surprised they care enough to have done that.
W6 doesn't surprise me. The interaction with wasteland is oppressive. However, I think this is too bad because it keeps mana bases honest, which is pretty cool. This does provide an alternative for players who want to enter the format. If your deck is good vs wasteland, you stand a chance vs all the big decks.
Green has been pushed quite a bit since the last Innistrad. I think every color will get it's time to shine. Eventually, that might even be white!
Indeed. I'm ready to believe that a for-profit company did something bad for customers just for the sake of profit, but as they say, why assume malice for what is adequately explained by stupidity, or rather, in this case, simple human fallibility? It's a pretty bold claim to suggest WotC is so deliberately screwing with players, after all. That would be a rather risky move on their part. Just the fact that players are so annoyed with this situation to feel like this must be some deliberate slight against them tells you that it might not be ideal for WotC. Especially if someone leaked anything that substantiated that— can you imagine the fallout after that?
Exactly. I don't know why anyone would be surprised that this happens. It happens with like, every game. Most game communities seem to think the devs are incompetent at balancing, or have nefarious ulterior motives. You can criticize shortcomings without jumping to a conspiracy theory or claiming to be smarter than the entire dev team, guys. Trust me, it's possible. In fact, it would make your criticisms a lot more impactful.
Yes. They should have slightly more options for interactivity with planeswalkers too.
Agree. Bannings are annoying in losing cards, but if it opens up more cards to playability and reduces the need to buy into a select set of ridiculously expensive cards then it's easily worth it on that front.
Ah, the advantages of a digital game...
I remember a time when white-blue decks were the monster of the metagame. White will have its time. Hell, after these bannings, white-blue looks to be in a pretty good position again.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
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I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
The "pushed cards" theory would explain how Wizards thought Throne of Eldraine's power level was pushed despite our fairly collective initial impression that it was powered down, but I believe we did not think that Oko would be solidly playable in any format other than Standard. My initial playtesting of Oko in Modern, and me being unable to conclude whether he or Teferi, Time Raveler was the better card in a deck that could support either and needed the anti-hate, didn't help matters.
Small brains like conspiracies.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
No they won't. Also he's alive and well in pioneer and other formats.
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Frankly, I think the architecture of Castle Garenbrig is looking a lot better now that one of those elks turned back into The Great Henge. It just wasn't the same without it.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
This aged well lol, Oko is actually rising in price after being banned from Standard.
Never doubt of speculations... Greed people can't live without 5 playsets of oko, simple as that
Why don't pestilence effects hit walkers? Why are red direct damage spells targeting either player or planeswalkers but rarely the option to hit either?
Why isn't oblivion ring in every coreset going forward?
Being able to steal Oko and -5 it to death on your own would be totally enough if red could steal them that easily.
Fight mechanics should by default be able to target planeswalkers too.
Blue/Black have reasonable enough answers to planeswalkers.
Artifacts should get a Null Rod against planeswalkers, a super efficient hate that nails them all away (the Spyglass is just way too terrible at that job).
White could have an hate-enchantment thats Humility for planeswalkers, make them 1/1 creatures and lose all abilities.
Even lands could have something that removes loyality from planeswalkers, maybe with XX Tap, remove X counters from a planeswalker.
----
All such things would help that every color has reasonable answers.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Which was basically Infinite Cats Vs Cars all over again from Kaladesh. Which was also riddled with the problem of "Not enough good answers" as a matter of fact. For if you were playing black then as well, it meant you were playing Cars because of Fatal Push.