MTG Salvation

Wizards is so caught up in the planeswalker modelling and iterating that they don't see how ugly these things are, and this is speaking as someone who gladly windmilled Oko, Liliana and others. They really need to add loyalty removal to spells, ETB effects or attack triggers before more stuff gets out of hand.
I mean, Theros is coming back and allegedly you can re-cast the planswalker?

I'm building Pioneer Sultai so at least I did not lose much from that point of view. Here's hoping my Oko and OuaT stay legal there.

Quote from seilaoque »

how long it has been since the last standard with this many banned cards?

There are 4 banned cards in the current Standard.

For the last ~8 months of Kaladesh-Amonkhet-Ixalan-Dominaria-M19 standard, there were 7 cards on the Standard ban list.

Quote from JaceBluesMaster »

I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.

I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.

The more I read about play design and the more I think a lot of people's hate is super misguided. Play design DOES NOT design cards with the purpose of sales. That is NOT their role. I don't believe for a second that that's their main goal when designing cards.

Reading the last article about play design really helps puts things in perspective, in my opinion. What's been happening is that they have actually powered down standard quite a bit but have pushed a few cards really far in one direction. So that's why some of these seem so egregious. To be completely honest, it's better to push the envelop than to hold back. Sometimes things come together super well and other times, they don't. They have no way to predict what the meta will look like (consider that there's only like 20 of them vs the collective hive mind when it comes to play testing). Mistakes will slip through. The problem, and i hope they scale this back, is 3 mana planeswalkers. These tend to be too strong when you have 1 drop acceleration available in standard. Hell even without acceleration, we all know how strong 3 mana walkers are (too efficient). If you bumped both Teferi and Oko up to 4 mana, they are nowhere near as oppressive (as your opponent will have had time to build a board).

Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.

I understand that some players may feel frustrated with this, but without the ability to "nerf" cards, this is the only way.

Veil of summer is an insanely overpowered card. It's a 1 mana "cryptic command". Hell, it's even begun to see main deck play.

Narset was actually a problem in vintage (like a serious one) but i'm surprised they care enough to have done that.

W6 doesn't surprise me. The interaction with wasteland is oppressive. However, I think this is too bad because it keeps mana bases honest, which is pretty cool. This does provide an alternative for players who want to enter the format. If your deck is good vs wasteland, you stand a chance vs all the big decks.

Green has been pushed quite a bit since the last Innistrad. I think every color will get it's time to shine. Eventually, that might even be white!

Quote from the n00b king »

Quote from JaceBluesMaster »

I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.

I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.

The more I read about play design and the more I think a lot of people's hate is super misguided. Play design DOES NOT design cards with the purpose of sales. That is NOT their role. I don't believe for a second that that's their main goal when designing cards.

Indeed. I'm ready to believe that a for-profit company did something bad for customers just for the sake of profit, but as they say, why assume malice for what is adequately explained by stupidity, or rather, in this case, simple human fallibility? It's a pretty bold claim to suggest WotC is so deliberately screwing with players, after all. That would be a rather risky move on their part. Just the fact that players are so annoyed with this situation to feel like this must be some deliberate slight against them tells you that it might not be ideal for WotC. Especially if someone leaked anything that substantiated that— can you imagine the fallout after that?

Quote from the n00b king »

Reading the last article about play design really helps puts things in perspective, in my opinion. What's been happening is that they have actually powered down standard quite a bit but have pushed a few cards really far in one direction. So that's why some of these seem so egregious. To be completely honest, it's better to push the envelop than to hold back. Sometimes things come together super well and other times, they don't. They have no way to predict what the meta will look like (consider that there's only like 20 of them vs the collective hive mind when it comes to play testing). Mistakes will slip through.

Exactly. I don't know why anyone would be surprised that this happens. It happens with like, every game. Most game communities seem to think the devs are incompetent at balancing, or have nefarious ulterior motives. You can criticize shortcomings without jumping to a conspiracy theory or claiming to be smarter than the entire dev team, guys. Trust me, it's possible. In fact, it would make your criticisms a lot more impactful.

Quote from the n00b king »

The problem, and i hope they scale this back, is 3 mana planeswalkers. These tend to be too strong when you have 1 drop acceleration available in standard. Hell even without acceleration, we all know how strong 3 mana walkers are (too efficient). If you bumped both Teferi and Oko up to 4 mana, they are nowhere near as oppressive (as your opponent will have had time to build a board).

Yes. They should have slightly more options for interactivity with planeswalkers too.

Quote from the n00b king »

Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.

Agree. Bannings are annoying in losing cards, but if it opens up more cards to playability and reduces the need to buy into a select set of ridiculously expensive cards then it's easily worth it on that front.

Quote from the n00b king »

I understand that some players may feel frustrated with this, but without the ability to "nerf" cards, this is the only way.

Ah, the advantages of a digital game...

Quote from the n00b king »

Green has been pushed quite a bit since the last Innistrad. I think every color will get it's time to shine. Eventually, that might even be white!

I remember a time when white-blue decks were the monster of the metagame. White will have its time. Hell, after these bannings, white-blue looks to be in a pretty good position again.

Quote from JaceBluesMaster »

I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.

I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.

The "pushed cards" theory would explain how Wizards thought Throne of Eldraine's power level was pushed despite our fairly collective initial impression that it was powered down, but I believe we did not think that Oko would be solidly playable in any format other than Standard. My initial playtesting of Oko in Modern, and me being unable to conclude whether he or Teferi, Time Raveler was the better card in a deck that could support either and needed the anti-hate, didn't help matters.

Quote from DJK3654 »

Quote from the n00b king »

Quote from JaceBluesMaster »

I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.

I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.

The more I read about play design and the more I think a lot of people's hate is super misguided. Play design DOES NOT design cards with the purpose of sales. That is NOT their role. I don't believe for a second that that's their main goal when designing cards.

Indeed. I'm ready to believe that a for-profit company did something bad for customers just for the sake of profit, but as they say, why assume malice for what is adequately explained by stupidity, or rather, in this case, simple human fallibility? It's a pretty bold claim to suggest WotC is so deliberately screwing with players, after all. That would be a rather risky move on their part. Just the fact that players are so annoyed with this situation to feel like this must be some deliberate slight against them tells you that it might not be ideal for WotC. Especially if someone leaked anything that substantiated that— can you imagine the fallout after that?

Quote from the n00b king »

Reading the last article about play design really helps puts things in perspective, in my opinion. What's been happening is that they have actually powered down standard quite a bit but have pushed a few cards really far in one direction. So that's why some of these seem so egregious. To be completely honest, it's better to push the envelop than to hold back. Sometimes things come together super well and other times, they don't. They have no way to predict what the meta will look like (consider that there's only like 20 of them vs the collective hive mind when it comes to play testing). Mistakes will slip through.

Exactly. I don't know why anyone would be surprised that this happens. It happens with like, every game. Most game communities seem to think the devs are incompetent at balancing, or have nefarious ulterior motives. You can criticize shortcomings without jumping to a conspiracy theory or claiming to be smarter than the entire dev team, guys. Trust me, it's possible. In fact, it would make your criticisms a lot more impactful.

Small brains like conspiracies.

Quote from the n00b king »

Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.

I wasn't aware of this. Are there any cards they regret not banning from past standard environments?

Quote from Pouncing Kavu »

Quote from the n00b king »

Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.

I wasn't aware of this. Are there any cards they regret not banning from past standard environments?

CoCo and Rally easily come to mind, maybe Thoughtseize in the RTR-THS era too...

Farewell elks, you will be missed.

Quote from Pip_Maxwell »

Farewell elks, you will be missed.

No they won't. Also he's alive and well in pioneer and other formats.

Quote from Pip_Maxwell »

Farewell elks, you will be missed.

Frankly, I think the architecture of Castle Garenbrig is looking a lot better now that one of those elks turned back into The Great Henge. It just wasn't the same without it.

Quote from Jonatthan81 »

oko is going to drop big time. Get rid of it if you’re not using it.

This aged well lol, Oko is actually rising in price after being banned from Standard.

Quote from Auspicious »

Quote from Jonatthan81 »

oko is going to drop big time. Get rid of it if you’re not using it.

This aged well lol, Oko is actually rising in price after being banned from Standard.

Never doubt of speculations... Greed people can't live without 5 playsets of oko, simple as that

Agreed with others in the thread, standard needs either weaker walkers or better answers.
Why don't pestilence effects hit walkers? Why are red direct damage spells targeting either player or planeswalkers but rarely the option to hit either?
Why isn't oblivion ring in every coreset going forward?

Red simply needs more/any ways to steal planeswalkers, so having them at ultimate loyality becomes a real gamble.

Being able to steal Oko and -5 it to death on your own would be totally enough if red could steal them that easily.

Fight mechanics should by default be able to target planeswalkers too.

Blue/Black have reasonable enough answers to planeswalkers.


Artifacts should get a Null Rod against planeswalkers, a super efficient hate that nails them all away (the Spyglass is just way too terrible at that job).
White could have an hate-enchantment thats Humility for planeswalkers, make them 1/1 creatures and lose all abilities.


Even lands could have something that removes loyality from planeswalkers, maybe with XX Tap, remove X counters from a planeswalker.

----

All such things would help that every color has reasonable answers.

Oko, Thief of Crowns The loyalty is just way too high for a design at 3 mana. 6 or 5 when it comes into play and plus it. Their targeted hate in standard wasn't good enough dealing only 5 damage. Fry
You could make a instant, 2 mana, deal 6 damage to target legendary permanent.
The problem they have created is fairly consistent. Lack of answers for large threats creature or planeswalker. In red, green, and white.
If I can boomerang or Thoughtseize. Then Oblivion Ring seems slow in comparison. I think there is more color specific red. I can't find something with target planeswalker at 2 mana that would be effective. Even at 3 mana I'm not sure what would be effective. There are a ton of 3 mana creature grab effects. Just like other posters I'm not sure what greens going to do either.
Green could be Collector Ouphe change it to planeswalkers. Prior to planeswalkers green had an ok solution of fog for creatures. I do also think that fight should just be re-made with a another key word. Effects that deal direct damage from a creature without fighting exist. Aggressive Instinct just change the wording to include planeswalkers. Instant fix. But if I can kill a creatures with flying at instant speed for 2 mana.Plummet Why can't I have another narrow card that just says planeswalker? Make it GG sorcery speed.Or if I can do this at 3 mana Crushing Canopy why not say flying creature or planeswalker? Planeswalkers sure unbalanced death touch creatures.

Other examples
You could have GG, enchantment, target planeswalker or creature. Enchanted permanent loses all abilities and becomes a 3/3. Seems like green can do that now. Also green can do this Song of the Dryads.
Red
R, sorcery, flip a coin, if you win the flip destroy target planeswalker, if you lose the flip take 3 damage.
2R, sorcery, gain control of target planeswalker until end of turn.
1R, instant, deal 6 damage to target planeswalker.
White
If I can path to exile. I need a path to planeswalker at 1.
Lots of options. They just need to print something.

Yeah. Especially when the only real counter to him was really Noxious Grasp. Which meant you were playing black and the deck that specifically countered Oko decks. Sure there are other decks you can play at an LGS, but if you actually wanted to win tournies, you were either playing Oko or Anti-Oko.

Which was basically Infinite Cats Vs Cars all over again from Kaladesh. Which was also riddled with the problem of "Not enough good answers" as a matter of fact. For if you were playing black then as well, it meant you were playing Cars because of Fatal Push.