they can't have both, they need to sacrifice one of them. it's just going to be another tiny leaders, or brawl, or whatever that other one was where a walker could be your commander with a signature spell, its great in theory but without support it'll go nowhere fast and to get support you have to pull away from modern. that's a difficult balance. there is actually a point where there are TOO many ways to play.
i mean, it happens often enough already where a legacy event doesn't fire because people want to play modern that night, but that doesn't fire because some want standard, but no maybe half of them want to draft, oh whatever **** it lets all play commander. it was brawl night anyway.
I feel as though the reason why Pioneer now exists as a MTG format is because fixing Modern (and to a lesser extent Standard) would require Wizards of the Coast to publicly acknowledge the Secondary Market since it's what's been pushing players out of Standard / Modern for cheaper alternatives such as EDH / Commander which is the most popular format in the game. The problem right now is that the ongoing demand for popular cards are having a domino effect on other formats causing them to become more expensive as an end result with no reprint equity in sight. When that reprint equity goes into premium products with limited print runs like Ultimate Masters that's why you have cards like Snapcaster Mage which are still around $60-70 a piece non-foil when they should be much cheaper on the Secondary Market.
Pioneer feels like a way for Wizards of the Coast to draw more players away from EDH / Commander for those who can't afford Standard / Modern right now since they'd rather promote competitive formats more than casual formats as it makes them more money. I like the idea behind Commandfest although it's obvious that Wizards of the Coast simply isn't pushing it hard enough probably because they're afraid of EDH / Commander's influence on competitive players which to them translates to less money being spent on Standard / Modern. They base their Banned / Restricted List decisions on data from these competitive formats simply because they don't want to get on the EDH Rules Committee's bad side of turning EDH / Commander into a money driven format.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
This should be implemented in arena instead of historic. Not over night obviously, but gradually coding back to RTR would be possible
They don’t even want to add Kaladesh thru Hour of Devastation....and they already have that coded in from closed beta!! Those sets should have been included upon historics launch...but nope that would take away from WotC always trying to push Standard.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
How is this better than Frontier? This is starting to get dumb.
Significantly larger card pool, lowering the odds of 5 color goodstuff simply dominating the format. Allowing for a more diverse format, barring any need for emergency bans. Has a much higher potential ceiling.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
If it were me, I would have actually started TWO years earlier with Scars of Mirrodin, just for the cutesiness of like, being able to tell people about it: "You know how Modern starts with Mirrodin? Well, Pioneer starts with SCARS of Mirrodin." Idk i feel like it would make it easier for people to wrap their heads around, plus we'd get the Titans from M12! And if they brought Historic back to Kaladesh from the Beta, then all three non-rotating formats would start with an artifact set, if people wanted to conceptualize it that way.
Idk, I just think that, since Modern's start date is so well-established, the other non-rotating formats that start from somewhere should be able to relate back to that same kind of starting point in some way, just so people can think like, "Oh well this one starts from this artifact block (Modern-Mirrodin), this one starts from the next artifact block (Pioneer-Scars), and this one starts from the most recent artifact block (Historic-Kaladesh)" rather than, like. if you ask a player to remember all this stuff, MRD/RTR/XLN feels a lot more arbitrary
they can't have both, they need to sacrifice one of them. it's just going to be another tiny leaders, or brawl, or whatever that other one was where a walker could be your commander with a signature spell, its great in theory but without support it'll go nowhere fast and to get support you have to pull away from modern. that's a difficult balance. there is actually a point where there are TOO many ways to play.
i mean, it happens often enough already where a legacy event doesn't fire because people want to play modern that night, but that doesn't fire because some want standard, but no maybe half of them want to draft, oh whatever **** it lets all play commander. it was brawl night anyway.
Except Pioneer is necessary because Modern is gradually pricing itself out of playability for new/newer players. Or even some older ones. It's a necessary step. I imagine in another ten years or so, they'll do it again.
If it were me, I would have actually started TWO years earlier with Scars of Mirrodin, just for the cutesiness of like, being able to tell people about it: "You know how Modern starts with Mirrodin? Well, Pioneer starts with SCARS of Mirrodin." Idk i feel like it would make it easier for people to wrap their heads around, plus we'd get the Titans from M12! And if they brought Historic back to Kaladesh from the Beta, then all three non-rotating formats would start with an artifact set, if people wanted to conceptualize it that way.
Idk, I just think that, since Modern's start date is so well-established, the other non-rotating formats that start from somewhere should be able to relate back to that same kind of starting point in some way, just so people can think like, "Oh well this one starts from this artifact block (Modern-Mirrodin), this one starts from the next artifact block (Pioneer-Scars), and this one starts from the most recent artifact block (Historic-Kaladesh)" rather than, like. if you ask a player to remember all this stuff, MRD/RTR/XLN feels a lot more arbitrary
Well in Theory you could say that there is a connection:
RTR block was 2013
Mirrodin block was 2003
The game released 1993
So if you take Pioneer, Mirrodin and Legacy there is a new Eternal format every 10 years.
If it were me, I would have actually started TWO years earlier with Scars of Mirrodin, just for the cutesiness of like, being able to tell people about it: "You know how Modern starts with Mirrodin? Well, Pioneer starts with SCARS of Mirrodin." Idk i feel like it would make it easier for people to wrap their heads around, plus we'd get the Titans from M12! And if they brought Historic back to Kaladesh from the Beta, then all three non-rotating formats would start with an artifact set, if people wanted to conceptualize it that way.
Idk, I just think that, since Modern's start date is so well-established, the other non-rotating formats that start from somewhere should be able to relate back to that same kind of starting point in some way, just so people can think like, "Oh well this one starts from this artifact block (Modern-Mirrodin), this one starts from the next artifact block (Pioneer-Scars), and this one starts from the most recent artifact block (Historic-Kaladesh)" rather than, like. if you ask a player to remember all this stuff, MRD/RTR/XLN feels a lot more arbitrary
That’s all well and good but Modern doesn’t start at Mirrodin it starts at 8th edition. Not to mention all the massive format warping problems that starting at Scars would add. Infect, Phyrexian Mana, the numerous powerful cards from Innistrad block that would overshadow most of the rest of the format like Snappy, Lili, Griz, Delver, Lingering Souls, Faithless Looting blah blah blah. RTR is a great starting point but I would have gone with the core set just before it for the purpose of making core sets a clear delineation of years and eras in magic.
they can't have both, they need to sacrifice one of them. it's just going to be another tiny leaders, or brawl, or whatever that other one was where a walker could be your commander with a signature spell, its great in theory but without support it'll go nowhere fast and to get support you have to pull away from modern. that's a difficult balance. there is actually a point where there are TOO many ways to play.
i mean, it happens often enough already where a legacy event doesn't fire because people want to play modern that night, but that doesn't fire because some want standard, but no maybe half of them want to draft, oh whatever **** it lets all play commander. it was brawl night anyway.
Except Pioneer is necessary because Modern is gradually pricing itself out of playability for new/newer players. Or even some older ones. It's a necessary step. I imagine in another ten years or so, they'll do it again.
they can't have both, they need to sacrifice one of them. it's just going to be another tiny leaders, or brawl, or whatever that other one was where a walker could be your commander with a signature spell, its great in theory but without support it'll go nowhere fast and to get support you have to pull away from modern. that's a difficult balance. there is actually a point where there are TOO many ways to play.
i mean, it happens often enough already where a legacy event doesn't fire because people want to play modern that night, but that doesn't fire because some want standard, but no maybe half of them want to draft, oh whatever **** it lets all play commander. it was brawl night anyway.
Except Pioneer is necessary because Modern is gradually pricing itself out of playability for new/newer players. Or even some older ones. It's a necessary step. I imagine in another ten years or so, they'll do it again.
Thats a reprint policy issue not a format issue
1000000% this. WotC got the exact wrong answer to the Modern problem. Just reprint the damn cards, it's FREE MONEY.
they can't have both, they need to sacrifice one of them. it's just going to be another tiny leaders, or brawl, or whatever that other one was where a walker could be your commander with a signature spell, its great in theory but without support it'll go nowhere fast and to get support you have to pull away from modern. that's a difficult balance. there is actually a point where there are TOO many ways to play.
i mean, it happens often enough already where a legacy event doesn't fire because people want to play modern that night, but that doesn't fire because some want standard, but no maybe half of them want to draft, oh whatever **** it lets all play commander. it was brawl night anyway.
Except Pioneer is necessary because Modern is gradually pricing itself out of playability for new/newer players. Or even some older ones. It's a necessary step. I imagine in another ten years or so, they'll do it again.
Thats a reprint policy issue not a format issue
1000000% this. WotC got the exact wrong answer to the Modern problem. Just reprint the damn cards, it's FREE MONEY.
Basically this. The ultimate goal of the modern format was to establish a non-rotating format where no cards are on the reserve list to reprint them. The problem though is that they aren't reprinting much of their cards unless they're in $10-$15 product which in my honest opinion defeats the purpose of a reprint set, but that's entirely a different conversation.
So this is basically going to be modern lite where many of the $ cards are gone for the time being. If the format takes off, then you'll have cards increase in price. So essentially this feels like a band-aid to a problem that inevitably will come creeping again. Will WotC fix their reprint problems by then? Maybe.
I feel like it could be a nice change. Including RTR seems like a good idea because it means we have access to a lot of extra cards that were not in Origins onwards that will police the format like thoughtseize, rest in peace, pithing needle, abrupt decay and supreme verdict.
Personally I'm a big fan of their starting ban list. Having no fetches to start will massively reduce the price to build a deck and also helps police cards like the delve spells, deathrite, jace and delirium. I also like that they've taken a hands off approach and haven't preemptively banned anything to allow the format to find its feet first. That being said I wouldn't get married to any deck just yet, there's likely to be bans in the coming months, I just can't believe treasure cruise and dig through time will remain unbanned. I've only played 4 matches on mtgo so far against 4 different people but they've all had treasure cruise + I'm also running a treasure cruise deck lol, who knew that ancestral recall in a arclight phoenix deck was good
You sound like the people who derided Modern as a dead on arrival format because no one would play it instead of Legacy/Vintage.
This format will be popular if the card prices are not exorbitantly expensive (like Modern and Legacy/Vintage). If prices are kept in check, then that becomes the format's greatest selling point.
I feel like it could be a nice change. Including RTR seems like a good idea because it means we have access to a lot of extra cards that were not in Origins onwards that will police the format like thoughtseize, rest in peace, pithing needle, abrupt decay and supreme verdict.
Starting at RTR also means they avoid some of the problematic (and expensive (and Modern defining)) cards from Innistrad and Mirrodin Besieged (which were likely also floated as the starting point for the format (since those 3 blocks were released around when Magic's popularity exploded)).
On one hand a format without fetches could be nice for the way cheaper decks but this does not change what others have pointed out WotC don't reprints in sufficient numbers to keep up with players demand. Let's all see in 5 years how expensive Pioneer has become.
If I'm not mistaken Thoughtseize will be the only tier 1 non-creature spell from Modern and Legacy that's legal in this format.
Actually, I'll go over the colors real quick looking for what they lost and kept compared to Modern and Legacy.
Red has lost probably the top 3-5 spells (Bolt, Looting, Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt, etc). We're literally talking Shock / Incinerate level now.
Blue has lost all existing cantrips as well as Jace, Delver and Snapcaster.
Green has lost its top 3-4 mana dorks and its top 3 tutors (GSZ, NO, Chord), only leaving Company behind. They also lost Goyf.
White has lost Path and Swords as well as SFM, which is already all the cards that ever made this color playable in eternal formats.
Yeah, I think I'd start brewing with black first... I think WotC will end up regretting reprinting TSeize in Theros. It's on paper the best spell in the format by a mile.
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"Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."
as long as modern exists, this is a dead format.
they can't have both, they need to sacrifice one of them. it's just going to be another tiny leaders, or brawl, or whatever that other one was where a walker could be your commander with a signature spell, its great in theory but without support it'll go nowhere fast and to get support you have to pull away from modern. that's a difficult balance. there is actually a point where there are TOO many ways to play.
i mean, it happens often enough already where a legacy event doesn't fire because people want to play modern that night, but that doesn't fire because some want standard, but no maybe half of them want to draft, oh whatever **** it lets all play commander. it was brawl night anyway.
Pioneer feels like a way for Wizards of the Coast to draw more players away from EDH / Commander for those who can't afford Standard / Modern right now since they'd rather promote competitive formats more than casual formats as it makes them more money. I like the idea behind Commandfest although it's obvious that Wizards of the Coast simply isn't pushing it hard enough probably because they're afraid of EDH / Commander's influence on competitive players which to them translates to less money being spent on Standard / Modern. They base their Banned / Restricted List decisions on data from these competitive formats simply because they don't want to get on the EDH Rules Committee's bad side of turning EDH / Commander into a money driven format.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
They don’t even want to add Kaladesh thru Hour of Devastation....and they already have that coded in from closed beta!! Those sets should have been included upon historics launch...but nope that would take away from WotC always trying to push Standard.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Reach out and torch someone . . .
Significantly larger card pool, lowering the odds of 5 color goodstuff simply dominating the format. Allowing for a more diverse format, barring any need for emergency bans. Has a much higher potential ceiling.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Idk, I just think that, since Modern's start date is so well-established, the other non-rotating formats that start from somewhere should be able to relate back to that same kind of starting point in some way, just so people can think like, "Oh well this one starts from this artifact block (Modern-Mirrodin), this one starts from the next artifact block (Pioneer-Scars), and this one starts from the most recent artifact block (Historic-Kaladesh)" rather than, like. if you ask a player to remember all this stuff, MRD/RTR/XLN feels a lot more arbitrary
Except Pioneer is necessary because Modern is gradually pricing itself out of playability for new/newer players. Or even some older ones. It's a necessary step. I imagine in another ten years or so, they'll do it again.
Well in Theory you could say that there is a connection:
RTR block was 2013
Mirrodin block was 2003
The game released 1993
So if you take Pioneer, Mirrodin and Legacy there is a new Eternal format every 10 years.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Eternal just means it doesn't rotate. Cards that are legal in that format are legal in that format eternally (unless they get banned).
That’s all well and good but Modern doesn’t start at Mirrodin it starts at 8th edition. Not to mention all the massive format warping problems that starting at Scars would add. Infect, Phyrexian Mana, the numerous powerful cards from Innistrad block that would overshadow most of the rest of the format like Snappy, Lili, Griz, Delver, Lingering Souls, Faithless Looting blah blah blah. RTR is a great starting point but I would have gone with the core set just before it for the purpose of making core sets a clear delineation of years and eras in magic.
Thats a reprint policy issue not a format issue
1000000% this. WotC got the exact wrong answer to the Modern problem. Just reprint the damn cards, it's FREE MONEY.
Basically this. The ultimate goal of the modern format was to establish a non-rotating format where no cards are on the reserve list to reprint them. The problem though is that they aren't reprinting much of their cards unless they're in $10-$15 product which in my honest opinion defeats the purpose of a reprint set, but that's entirely a different conversation.
So this is basically going to be modern lite where many of the $ cards are gone for the time being. If the format takes off, then you'll have cards increase in price. So essentially this feels like a band-aid to a problem that inevitably will come creeping again. Will WotC fix their reprint problems by then? Maybe.
Personally I'm a big fan of their starting ban list. Having no fetches to start will massively reduce the price to build a deck and also helps police cards like the delve spells, deathrite, jace and delirium. I also like that they've taken a hands off approach and haven't preemptively banned anything to allow the format to find its feet first. That being said I wouldn't get married to any deck just yet, there's likely to be bans in the coming months, I just can't believe treasure cruise and dig through time will remain unbanned. I've only played 4 matches on mtgo so far against 4 different people but they've all had treasure cruise + I'm also running a treasure cruise deck lol, who knew that ancestral recall in a arclight phoenix deck was good
You sound like the people who derided Modern as a dead on arrival format because no one would play it instead of Legacy/Vintage.
This format will be popular if the card prices are not exorbitantly expensive (like Modern and Legacy/Vintage). If prices are kept in check, then that becomes the format's greatest selling point.
Starting at RTR also means they avoid some of the problematic (and expensive (and Modern defining)) cards from Innistrad and Mirrodin Besieged (which were likely also floated as the starting point for the format (since those 3 blocks were released around when Magic's popularity exploded)).
Actually, I'll go over the colors real quick looking for what they lost and kept compared to Modern and Legacy.
Red has lost probably the top 3-5 spells (Bolt, Looting, Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt, etc). We're literally talking Shock / Incinerate level now.
Blue has lost all existing cantrips as well as Jace, Delver and Snapcaster.
Green has lost its top 3-4 mana dorks and its top 3 tutors (GSZ, NO, Chord), only leaving Company behind. They also lost Goyf.
White has lost Path and Swords as well as SFM, which is already all the cards that ever made this color playable in eternal formats.
Yeah, I think I'd start brewing with black first... I think WotC will end up regretting reprinting TSeize in Theros. It's on paper the best spell in the format by a mile.
- Last Word