This card is mythic for literally the same reason that wakening sun's avatar was mythic.
Any creature with a board wipe tacked on is mythic nowadays.
But this isn’t tacked on. It’s 13 mana, albeit spread across a few turns, for a “wrath tacked on”.
I understand that standard wrath’s are now 5-CMC, but, most have upsides, not downsides. Regardless of how many giants exist, you’re still potentially missing something with the wrath. The creature is too vanilla.
It’s just not Mythic worthy. Maybe if the Adventure was 6cmc at instant speed with the same vanilla body attached, but as is, just don’t like it at all.
It reminds me a lot of Part the Waterveil, actually, in terms of what you're getting for the cost. I think the major issue with it isn't its design so much as the fact that it's a white card in a top-down, low powered set leading into a potentially slower meta. In the abstract, wiping the board and then getting a big body a turn or two later - from the same card - is actually solid value. The ultimate question isn't "is this a good card?" so much as "is there a place for this?", but the general proportions of it certainly do seem mythic, to me at least.
This card is mythic for literally the same reason that wakening sun's avatar was mythic.
Any creature with a board wipe tacked on is mythic nowadays.
But this isn’t tacked on. It’s 13 mana, albeit spread across a few turns, for a “wrath tacked on”.
I understand that standard wrath’s are now 5-CMC, but, most have upsides, not downsides. Regardless of how many giants exist, you’re still potentially missing something with the wrath. The creature is too vanilla.
It’s just not Mythic worthy. Maybe if the Adventure was 6cmc at instant speed with the same vanilla body attached, but as is, just don’t like it at all.
It reminds me a lot of Part the Waterveil, actually, in terms of what you're getting for the cost. I think the major issue with it isn't its design so much as the fact that it's a white card in a top-down, low powered set leading into a potentially slower meta. In the abstract, wiping the board and then getting a big body a turn or two later - from the same card - is actually solid value. The ultimate question isn't "is this a good card?" so much as "is there a place for this?", but the general proportions of it certainly do seem mythic, to me at least.
This is the last bit I’m going to give on this. I’ve said my piece, ‘it’s what it ‘tis. For 8-Mana, you’re left with a hasty, albeit smaller body. They are effectively the same thing.
You may want to have the creature later, and that’s fine. But, that doesn’t change the fact that this effect has been done before at rare, and a few instances at that. And, the effect at Mythic has been done before and pushed a bit harder.
Card is bad. Having a wrath adventure mode is excellent but the creature is unplayable level bad. Do people just run this for the wrath and not cast the creature unless desperate?
Not even close to unplayable this will be spotted in edh decks for sure
Not even giant tribal as the focus
No doubt. EDH would be a good format for this. I tend to evaluate with a focus on standard and cube as these are the formats I play most. The adventure mechanic effectively makes every card with it 2 cards within 1. Generally if the spell half of that is a reasonably costed wrath as this is, the creature half doesn't need to be that impressive for the card to be good...but a vigilance 7/7 for 5WW isn't impressive at all. No evasion, no resilience, nothing a control finisher wants. Does it make the card unplayable? No. As I said, the creature is what is unplayable unless it is the only play you have.
A bad free card is a great card.
Noone wants to play 2W 1/1 lifelink creature but Legion's Landing was a staple during all of its tenure. 1U draw a card is beyond unplayable but Radical Idea saw its share of play. 3GG 4/4 is very underwhelming but growth chamber guardian is quite good. There is a bunch of other examples.
Imo this card is only marginaly playable because the wrath is slightly on the bad side (5 mana + minor downside). But anyway, its a wrath outside of BW and plays very well with threeferi. I think this is a great card for WU control.
The Monster world of Ikoria could also provide some solid giants.
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I think the creature side is a little underwhelming for Mythic, but it is most likely Standard viable. The wrath downside is going to affect its playability.
If the format's best decks have giants in them, the wrath won't be great. As for the creature... the most important piece is that you can play it later and its not in your hand. There is no way your opponent can interact with it (no Processors in Standard right now), so it can be the finisher once the opponent is ground down and the control deck feels in control. And if your opponent drops blockers, you can cast another one without killing your finisher. In this case, the downside is actually an upside. Even more so, if the giant is not the finisher, it's still a (mostly unconditional) board wipe for 5 mana in mono white. Will see play since Cleansing Nova is leaving. Only other options post-rotation are Kaya's Wrath and Time Wipe, which are both good, but don't have a finisher built into them.
The bounce synergies are a good point in favor of this card. I don't agree with the rest though. The cards you mention were good because of particular tribal synergies (or just the viability of White Weenie in general) or the PW centric nature of WAR that made proliferate good enough. Growth-Chamber Guardian was well positioned for the format giving you a 4/4 on turn 3 and providing additional copies of itself. Calling it a 3GG 4/4 is like saying Exalted Angel is a 5WW 4/5 Flying, Lifelink....being able to divide the costs changes the valuation of the card. So these are all really poor comparisons.
This is meant to be a control finisher and it succeeds in part just by having a wrath as an adventure mode and essentially drawing you a late game threat. The problem is control decks late game threats need evasion or resilience. Vigilance by itself is about as close to vanilla as abilities get. This comes two turns later which gives the opponent ample time to reestablish their board. Everytime you tap out for this (and don't have the bounce combo on hand) your opponent is going to be relieved.
The point is, the opponent can't just side out all their kill-spells. That trick usually eats up sideboard space. With this card, you get it attached to a decent wrath (no, the creature isn't as good as baneslayer angel. doesn't need to be).
Of course it would be better if the wrath were unconditional. It isn't going to replace the 4 mana wrath that remains in standard either. But it will probably be played.
Any by the way, the standard format right now is irrelevant because rotation is about to happen.
With respect, the modal nature of removal spells in Standard make it unlikely that an opponent is siding them out in the first place. Mortify? Assassin's Trophy? Despark? Bedevil? So much of what we play has utility against non-creature permanents that they're unlikely to ever come out.
I do agree with you that a creature doesn't need to be as efficient as Baneslayer to see play. So, since we can agree that Baneslayer is powerful, let me ask you why all the Standard decks haven't simply played Lyra as their win condition? What makes the far more expensive giant more appealing? Does just being stapled to a bad wrath effect changes things that severely? Think carefully, because the simple answer of 'but card advantage' can't possibly be correct because that could only ever be true if you cast the creature side every single time you cast the Adventure.
I'm aware that the format is rotating, just as you are. I'm also aware that being successful after a rotation is predicated by making objectively sound, fundamentally
consistent evaluations of the format's card pool.
This card is mythic for literally the same reason that wakening sun's avatar was mythic.
Any creature with a board wipe tacked on is mythic nowadays.
But this isn’t tacked on. It’s 13 mana, albeit spread across a few turns, for a “wrath tacked on”.
I understand that standard wrath’s are now 5-CMC, but, most have upsides, not downsides. Regardless of how many giants exist, you’re still potentially missing something with the wrath. The creature is too vanilla.
It’s just not Mythic worthy. Maybe if the Adventure was 6cmc at instant speed with the same vanilla body attached, but as is, just don’t like it at all.
It reminds me a lot of Part the Waterveil, actually, in terms of what you're getting for the cost. I think the major issue with it isn't its design so much as the fact that it's a white card in a top-down, low powered set leading into a potentially slower meta. In the abstract, wiping the board and then getting a big body a turn or two later - from the same card - is actually solid value. The ultimate question isn't "is this a good card?" so much as "is there a place for this?", but the general proportions of it certainly do seem mythic, to me at least.
This is the last bit I’m going to give on this. I’ve said my piece, ‘it’s what it ‘tis. For 8-Mana, you’re left with a hasty, albeit smaller body. They are effectively the same thing.
You may want to have the creature later, and that’s fine. But, that doesn’t change the fact that this effect has been done before at rare, and a few instances at that. And, the effect at Mythic has been done before and pushed a bit harder.
This does not strike me as being a very pushed set.
This will be the sixth board wipe in 2020 Standard, and it has advantages over the other five. Citywide Bust only hits big creatures and Ritual of Soot only hits small creatures. Kaya's Wrath and Time Wipe are multicolored. Planar Cleansing costs more and kills planeswalkers as well, which is awkward in many control decks. This does have a big downside, if I am understanding adventures correctly, that it is only counted as a sorcery on the stack, and therefore can't be found by Augur of Bolas or Narset. I am not a good control player, so I don't know how to balance these, but it certainly seems like it is in the conversation.
This will be the sixth board wipe in 2020 Standard, and it has advantages over the other five. Citywide Bust only hits big creatures and Ritual of Soot only hits small creatures. Kaya's Wrath and Time Wipe are multicolored. Planar Cleansing costs more and kills planeswalkers as well, which is awkward in many control decks. This does have a big downside, if I am understanding adventures correctly, that it is only counted as a sorcery on the stack, and therefore can't be found by Augur of Bolas or Narset. I am not a good control player, so I don't know how to balance these, but it certainly seems like it is in the conversation.
Can I just add some clarity here.
I am not saying this is a bad board wipe. I’ve gone so far as to say it’s par for the course in nuStandard. However, that does not make this a card worth a Mythic slot.
The card isn’t the problem, the rarity is. You just listed ‘wipes that are all comparable, either costing less with restrictions or costing more but killing more. This falls into the same category. It’s also not leaving behind a body, it’s leaving behind an expensive, vanilla, creature spell. So one side of the spell is certainly a rare-worthy card. The other half is most certainly not. For a card like this, I’d expect some form of synergy between the 2 abilities. There really isn’t any here, which is why I am incredibly puzzled by the rarity.
This card is just fine. It's not busted no but either half of it are at least reasonably playable in a game of Magic. No, probably not in Standard or in Modern. The flavor is great. He's so big he wears the entire battlefield like a cloak so whenver he takes it off, everyone dies. Great design.
This will be the sixth board wipe in 2020 Standard, and it has advantages over the other five. Citywide Bust only hits big creatures and Ritual of Soot only hits small creatures. Kaya's Wrath and Time Wipe are multicolored. Planar Cleansing costs more and kills planeswalkers as well, which is awkward in many control decks. This does have a big downside, if I am understanding adventures correctly, that it is only counted as a sorcery on the stack, and therefore can't be found by Augur of Bolas or Narset. I am not a good control player, so I don't know how to balance these, but it certainly seems like it is in the conversation.
However, it can be found with cards that search/dig for creatures, which there are more of, and can be recurred because it has a creature built into it.
This will be the sixth board wipe in 2020 Standard, and it has advantages over the other five. Citywide Bust only hits big creatures and Ritual of Soot only hits small creatures. Kaya's Wrath and Time Wipe are multicolored. Planar Cleansing costs more and kills planeswalkers as well, which is awkward in many control decks. This does have a big downside, if I am understanding adventures correctly, that it is only counted as a sorcery on the stack, and therefore can't be found by Augur of Bolas or Narset. I am not a good control player, so I don't know how to balance these, but it certainly seems like it is in the conversation.
However, it can be found with cards that search/dig for creatures, which there are more of, and can be recurred because it has a creature built into it.
And it can be bounced once in creature form, allowing Teferi, Time Raveler to act as recursion.
This will be the sixth board wipe in 2020 Standard, and it has advantages over the other five. Citywide Bust only hits big creatures and Ritual of Soot only hits small creatures. Kaya's Wrath and Time Wipe are multicolored. Planar Cleansing costs more and kills planeswalkers as well, which is awkward in many control decks. This does have a big downside, if I am understanding adventures correctly, that it is only counted as a sorcery on the stack, and therefore can't be found by Augur of Bolas or Narset. I am not a good control player, so I don't know how to balance these, but it certainly seems like it is in the conversation.
Can I just add some clarity here.
I am not saying this is a bad board wipe. I’ve gone so far as to say it’s par for the course in nuStandard. However, that does not make this a card worth a Mythic slot.
The card isn’t the problem, the rarity is. You just listed ‘wipes that are all comparable, either costing less with restrictions or costing more but killing more. This falls into the same category. It’s also not leaving behind a body, it’s leaving behind an expensive, vanilla, creature spell. So one side of the spell is certainly a rare-worthy card. The other half is most certainly not. For a card like this, I’d expect some form of synergy between the 2 abilities. There really isn’t any here, which is why I am incredibly puzzled by the rarity.
Do you think they designed the card before assigning its rarity, or do you think they assigned its rarity first?
Funny how anyone would think this card is bad. It's a decent board wipe to stabilize, and then later you get the free option to cast a very decent creature - that is immune to your board wipe! I think this is pretty huge. The giant stops every non-flying attacker dead even while attacking every turn and if the opponent tries to go wide or drops a flyer you can wrath again and continue pummeling them for 7.
I like this, very unique take on a wrath. And I for one am thankful for the Mythic rarity because this is a total blowout in Limited.
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Now excuse me while I go wash all this excess sarcasm off.
It reminds me a lot of Part the Waterveil, actually, in terms of what you're getting for the cost. I think the major issue with it isn't its design so much as the fact that it's a white card in a top-down, low powered set leading into a potentially slower meta. In the abstract, wiping the board and then getting a big body a turn or two later - from the same card - is actually solid value. The ultimate question isn't "is this a good card?" so much as "is there a place for this?", but the general proportions of it certainly do seem mythic, to me at least.
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This is the last bit I’m going to give on this. I’ve said my piece, ‘it’s what it ‘tis. For 8-Mana, you’re left with a hasty, albeit smaller body. They are effectively the same thing.
You may want to have the creature later, and that’s fine. But, that doesn’t change the fact that this effect has been done before at rare, and a few instances at that. And, the effect at Mythic has been done before and pushed a bit harder.
A bad free card is a great card.
Noone wants to play 2W 1/1 lifelink creature but Legion's Landing was a staple during all of its tenure. 1U draw a card is beyond unplayable but Radical Idea saw its share of play. 3GG 4/4 is very underwhelming but growth chamber guardian is quite good. There is a bunch of other examples.
Imo this card is only marginaly playable because the wrath is slightly on the bad side (5 mana + minor downside). But anyway, its a wrath outside of BW and plays very well with threeferi. I think this is a great card for WU control.
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If the format's best decks have giants in them, the wrath won't be great. As for the creature... the most important piece is that you can play it later and its not in your hand. There is no way your opponent can interact with it (no Processors in Standard right now), so it can be the finisher once the opponent is ground down and the control deck feels in control. And if your opponent drops blockers, you can cast another one without killing your finisher. In this case, the downside is actually an upside. Even more so, if the giant is not the finisher, it's still a (mostly unconditional) board wipe for 5 mana in mono white. Will see play since Cleansing Nova is leaving. Only other options post-rotation are Kaya's Wrath and Time Wipe, which are both good, but don't have a finisher built into them.
This is meant to be a control finisher and it succeeds in part just by having a wrath as an adventure mode and essentially drawing you a late game threat. The problem is control decks late game threats need evasion or resilience. Vigilance by itself is about as close to vanilla as abilities get. This comes two turns later which gives the opponent ample time to reestablish their board. Everytime you tap out for this (and don't have the bounce combo on hand) your opponent is going to be relieved.
With respect, the modal nature of removal spells in Standard make it unlikely that an opponent is siding them out in the first place. Mortify? Assassin's Trophy? Despark? Bedevil? So much of what we play has utility against non-creature permanents that they're unlikely to ever come out.
I do agree with you that a creature doesn't need to be as efficient as Baneslayer to see play. So, since we can agree that Baneslayer is powerful, let me ask you why all the Standard decks haven't simply played Lyra as their win condition? What makes the far more expensive giant more appealing? Does just being stapled to a bad wrath effect changes things that severely? Think carefully, because the simple answer of 'but card advantage' can't possibly be correct because that could only ever be true if you cast the creature side every single time you cast the Adventure.
I'm aware that the format is rotating, just as you are. I'm also aware that being successful after a rotation is predicated by making objectively sound, fundamentally
consistent evaluations of the format's card pool.
Making mass-removal "mythic" at least means your opponent in Limited formats wont have it all the time.
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But this is a much more lazy adventure effect, could have been more epic for a mythic.
Chances are we get a major "giant" tribe support in Theros and this will be pushed a lot more as a one-sided wrath effect.
I almost GUARANTEE that this is going to happen.
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I guess it plays well with kalemne?
Actually In Ikoria as well don’t forget it’s a kaiju focused set so we might see some giants in that set too
I hope they make Giant a descriptor type like elder in that set. Creature - Giant Dinosaur. Creature - Giant Beast. Etc. etc.
This does not strike me as being a very pushed set.
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Can I just add some clarity here.
I am not saying this is a bad board wipe. I’ve gone so far as to say it’s par for the course in nuStandard. However, that does not make this a card worth a Mythic slot.
The card isn’t the problem, the rarity is. You just listed ‘wipes that are all comparable, either costing less with restrictions or costing more but killing more. This falls into the same category. It’s also not leaving behind a body, it’s leaving behind an expensive, vanilla, creature spell. So one side of the spell is certainly a rare-worthy card. The other half is most certainly not. For a card like this, I’d expect some form of synergy between the 2 abilities. There really isn’t any here, which is why I am incredibly puzzled by the rarity.
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However, it can be found with cards that search/dig for creatures, which there are more of, and can be recurred because it has a creature built into it.
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And it can be bounced once in creature form, allowing Teferi, Time Raveler to act as recursion.
Do you think they designed the card before assigning its rarity, or do you think they assigned its rarity first?
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I like this, very unique take on a wrath. And I for one am thankful for the Mythic rarity because this is a total blowout in Limited.