Force of Negation 1UU
Instant
If it is not your turn, you may exile a blue card from your hand rather than pay ~ mana cost.
Counter target non-creature spell. If that spell is countered this way, exile it instead of putting it in its owner's graveyard. Try, if you must
New Hermit 3GG
Creature
vanishing 3 (3 time counter, remove 1 at upkeep, sac ~ when last is removed).
Create 4 1/1 squirrel.
Squirrel get +1/+1
1/1
New force is very good, but the downsides are most certainly significant. The most significant limitation is not being able to use it for alt-cost during your own turn, so you can't use it protect your own stuff. Then, you can try to use it to stop your opponent from doing dumb things, but only if they are noncreatures. That still will encompass a significant portion of counterspell usage, but the limitations are real. Some archetypes will likely benefit much more than others, not to mention it is still probably not that good against most fair decks.
So we have a way *****tier Force of Will and a mostly better Deranged Hermit. I really hope we don’t get too many of these *****tier callbacks that are just mostly worse than the original. More Astral Drifts and Deep Forest Hermits and fewer Cabal Therapists and Force of Negations please.
New force is very good, but the downsides are most certainly significant. The most significant limitation is not being able to use it for alt-cost during your own turn, so you can't use it protect your own stuff. Then, you can try to use it to stop your opponent from doing dumb things, but only if they are noncreatures. That still will encompass a significant portion of counterspell usage, but the limitations are real. Some archetypes will likely benefit much more than others, not to mention it is still probably not that good against most fair decks.
It wants to be used to impede your opponent without the concern of 'taking off a turn' to keep the mana up. Without giving combo decks a tool that can't be matched.
It's not elegant, but it is quite effective to only be used the way it is meant to be used. (Unless you're really hard up and pay retail for it on your turn.)
So we have a way *****tier Force of Will and a mostly better Deranged Hermit. I really hope we don’t get too many of these *****tier callbacks that are just mostly worse than the original. More Astral Drifts and Deep Forest Hermits and fewer Cabal Therapists and Force of Negations please.
If by "s****y" you mean a pitch spell that's merely flexible, able to stop Tendrils decks turn 1 in Legacy, and isn't overpowered or unfun? I'm just fine with that kind of "s****y". By all means, give us more Force of Negations and Cabal Therapists, in addition to Astral Drifts and Deep Forest Hermits.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I love Deep Forest Hermit, just imagine dropping a good ol' Goblin Chainwhirler after your opponent has flooded the board with a 5-mana 1/1 and his squirrel pets, or you could also fry them with an Overloaded Electrickery, or call Massacre Girl to deal with your Squirrel infestation:D:D
So we have a way *****tier Force of Will and a mostly better Deranged Hermit. I really hope we don’t get too many of these *****tier callbacks that are just mostly worse than the original. More Astral Drifts and Deep Forest Hermits and fewer Cabal Therapists and Force of Negations please.
Why does it matter if this is a worse FoW if it’s still the best free counterspell available in modern? I mean, the set is called “modern horizons” after all.
I mean, you are trashing an awesome tool that can stop ad nauseum, karn, or a first-turn IoK (to protect a combo piece or something similar) while tapped out. This is likely going to be a highly played card... that you don’t like because formats with a wider range of cards have something better?
While this set is supposedly aimed at all players, I don’t think most people are expecting vintage/legacy to get as much out of it as modern will (and even that is up for debate until the set is released and the meta stabilizes).
Force of Negation is certainly good. Notably, the spell you counter is exiled. Aside from the obvious usage, you can use it like a Pact of Negation to protect your own combo from being disrupted if you can go off at instant speed (the names even line up). It pairs nicely with Leyline of Anticipation in that regard, and extra Leylines can be pitched to it.
The restrictions on Force of Negation are pretty significant , so it either does the job or it just flat out cant.
In any format you can play the real Force of Will you absolutely want to.
In Modern it will fuel the existing Mono Blue counterspell + super annoying planeswalkers .dec even further.
At this point you have Commandeer in that slot and this is almost always better to fill that role and eat their turn 1/2 Faithless Looting.
Works also good with Snapcaster Mage which further fuels the Mono Blue pile of counterspells (especially if we might get "Counterspell" itself maybe, hopefully ...).
I can see this being quite relevant in modern as a 4x just to hit all the pesky turn 1 spells that can be an all or nothing for so many decks (Aether Vial, Faithless Looting and all other kinds of stuff that would otherwise dominate the game unanswered).
I played Astral Slide in Standard back in the day, and I'm excited for Choking Tethers, again, but my god the templating looks so crowded on it. It doesn't look good. I'll be playing my Onslaught foils.
So we have a way *****tier Force of Will and a mostly better Deranged Hermit. I really hope we don’t get too many of these *****tier callbacks that are just mostly worse than the original. More Astral Drifts and Deep Forest Hermits and fewer Cabal Therapists and Force of Negations please.
Totally disagree.
I wanted force of will but to be honest I think modern would have been worse off if they actually printed it. This card is powerful enough to keep the degenerate stuff in check before your regular countermagic can be used without pushing blue over the edge.
Also on an unrelated note that Deep Forest Hermit comes as a real surprise. It seems so very similar to Deranged Hermit (which is a RL card) which has to make you wonder what other cards on the RL they might alter ever so slightly while keeping it almost identical. Obviously echo vs vanishing is a fundamental difference but the cards still feel so similar.
Are we going to get MH1 versions of Serra's Sanctum, Tolarian Academy, and Gaea's Cradle? Maybe with black and red counterparts that count creature cards and artifact cards in graveyards, respectively?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Force of Negation is amazing, a "fair" Force of Will. Of course, Force of Will is a extremely format-dependant card itself, so it's impossible to predict if FoN will be a powerhouse or a very good sideboard card, especially considering how much Modern Masters will shake up the format. In the current Standard environment, it would be great against Tron and Control, alright against Phoenix and Death's Shadow and bad against Spirits and Humans, where its only decent targets is Vials. Still a great effect to have, and the fact that you CAN hardcast it at a reasonable cost and it exiles is awesome.
I think Deep Forest Hermit is much better than Deranged Hermit, simply because you can "chain" Hermits. With Deranged Hermit, you're stuck at paying the 5 mana to get the most of your Squirrels during your next turn, but with Deep Forest you can cast them back-to-back, getting 12 power ready to swing on Squirrels alone. Is it good enough for Modern? Probably not, but a solid card nonetheless.
As for the other cards: Savage Swipe is hilarious and strictly better than Prey Upon, which is a fine Common on its own. Headless Specter seems pretty good for Pauper, Hippy is no joke and Hippy at Common is definitely worth jumping the extra hoops for. Martyr's Soul is another great Common with Pauper playability, a potential 5/4 with 2 relevant typings at turn 3, kinda like a Myr Superion that costs 1 more, isn't as combo-friendly but easier to use and also isn't useless if you don't have a board. Prohibit is very good and is potentially maindeckable in Modern. Once again, metagame dependant, but still.
I like the Changeling Cards. One is copying Giant Scorpion and the otherBlade of the Sixth Pride. Both are useful for Pauper Tribal decks. Also, calling it now: We'll get a Changeling cycle of creatures mimicking 2/2 Flying Drake, a 3/2 Menace Goblin and, most importantly, 6/6 Trampling Dinosaur. For the memes.
Are we going to get MH1 versions of Serra's Sanctum, Tolarian Academy, and Gaea's Cradle? Maybe with black and red counterparts that count creature cards and artifact cards in graveyards, respectively?
I severely doubt that ones happening. Any academy variant opens blue/affinity up too much and Gaea's not something they want to do in green overall even IN a powerful set sent directly to modern. Serra could theoretically work since enchantments are mostly auras now, but its still be damn nutty and probably too dangerous. What would be interesting is if they made a cabal coffers for red or something like it since green is primary still and red is tertiary for big mana and fast mana.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Eh but you have to recall giving blue free mana for any purpose leads to extremely degenerate decks. I could see u/w and u/b and u/w/b go completely bonk if the blue lands was easy to charge by instant or blue spells of a certain type. The only reason Agadeem and Nykthos work is you have to invest in something before hand to equal the payout mostly and they do limit themselves a bit, one is only black creatures in the yard and Nykthos is a legendary permanent so only can have 1 on the field at a time. You also have to worry about eldrazi if you give big and easy mana producers to modern. That's a kettle of worms I'm unsure they want to open.
Well so far this set looks like garbage for about 200 dollars a box.
Joke aside, I'm hoping they got something good to actually show in the next few days. This is not giving me a good impression considering they are charging a lot more for this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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Force of Negation 1UU
Instant
If it is not your turn, you may exile a blue card from your hand rather than pay ~ mana cost.
Counter target non-creature spell. If that spell is countered this way, exile it instead of putting it in its owner's graveyard.
Try, if you must
New Hermit 3GG
Creature
vanishing 3 (3 time counter, remove 1 at upkeep, sac ~ when last is removed).
Create 4 1/1 squirrel.
Squirrel get +1/+1
1/1
Hermit and Force are pretty cool.
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It's not elegant, but it is quite effective to only be used the way it is meant to be used. (Unless you're really hard up and pay retail for it on your turn.)
If by "s****y" you mean a pitch spell that's merely flexible, able to stop Tendrils decks turn 1 in Legacy, and isn't overpowered or unfun? I'm just fine with that kind of "s****y". By all means, give us more Force of Negations and Cabal Therapists, in addition to Astral Drifts and Deep Forest Hermits.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Why does it matter if this is a worse FoW if it’s still the best free counterspell available in modern? I mean, the set is called “modern horizons” after all.
I mean, you are trashing an awesome tool that can stop ad nauseum, karn, or a first-turn IoK (to protect a combo piece or something similar) while tapped out. This is likely going to be a highly played card... that you don’t like because formats with a wider range of cards have something better?
While this set is supposedly aimed at all players, I don’t think most people are expecting vintage/legacy to get as much out of it as modern will (and even that is up for debate until the set is released and the meta stabilizes).
In any format you can play the real Force of Will you absolutely want to.
In Modern it will fuel the existing Mono Blue counterspell + super annoying planeswalkers .dec even further.
At this point you have Commandeer in that slot and this is almost always better to fill that role and eat their turn 1/2 Faithless Looting.
Works also good with Snapcaster Mage which further fuels the Mono Blue pile of counterspells (especially if we might get "Counterspell" itself maybe, hopefully ...).
I can see this being quite relevant in modern as a 4x just to hit all the pesky turn 1 spells that can be an all or nothing for so many decks (Aether Vial, Faithless Looting and all other kinds of stuff that would otherwise dominate the game unanswered).
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StaffTotally disagree.
I wanted force of will but to be honest I think modern would have been worse off if they actually printed it. This card is powerful enough to keep the degenerate stuff in check before your regular countermagic can be used without pushing blue over the edge.
Also on an unrelated note that Deep Forest Hermit comes as a real surprise. It seems so very similar to Deranged Hermit (which is a RL card) which has to make you wonder what other cards on the RL they might alter ever so slightly while keeping it almost identical. Obviously echo vs vanishing is a fundamental difference but the cards still feel so similar.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I think Deep Forest Hermit is much better than Deranged Hermit, simply because you can "chain" Hermits. With Deranged Hermit, you're stuck at paying the 5 mana to get the most of your Squirrels during your next turn, but with Deep Forest you can cast them back-to-back, getting 12 power ready to swing on Squirrels alone. Is it good enough for Modern? Probably not, but a solid card nonetheless.
As for the other cards:
Savage Swipe is hilarious and strictly better than Prey Upon, which is a fine Common on its own.
Headless Specter seems pretty good for Pauper, Hippy is no joke and Hippy at Common is definitely worth jumping the extra hoops for.
Martyr's Soul is another great Common with Pauper playability, a potential 5/4 with 2 relevant typings at turn 3, kinda like a Myr Superion that costs 1 more, isn't as combo-friendly but easier to use and also isn't useless if you don't have a board.
Prohibit is very good and is potentially maindeckable in Modern. Once again, metagame dependant, but still.
I like the Changeling Cards. One is copying Giant Scorpion and the other Blade of the Sixth Pride. Both are useful for Pauper Tribal decks. Also, calling it now: We'll get a Changeling cycle of creatures mimicking 2/2 Flying Drake, a 3/2 Menace Goblin and, most importantly, 6/6 Trampling Dinosaur. For the memes.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Joke aside, I'm hoping they got something good to actually show in the next few days. This is not giving me a good impression considering they are charging a lot more for this.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!