The elder spell is ridiculous. The planeswalker card type doesn't really need this kind of hate. I think I pass on playing any planeswalker in limited or at least not more than one at time.
Why not? Walkers are just another permanent to destroy.
Show me the 2cmc card that destroys "any number of" artifacts. Or lands.
For enchantments, we do have Back to Nature - this is the closest parallel I can find, yet it blows up your stuff, too, rather than being selective and one-sided.
There's only one 2cmc card that destroys all creatures, but it telegraphs itself and is conditional.
For lands, we have Impending Disaster, which again telegraphs itself and is slow. Serenity is the same.
And those three are all old cards and can be destroyed before their upkeep trigger; we have nothing comparable to The Elderspell in terms of shear power and ability to wipe out an entire player's board.
This won't really impact standard, or any other competitive format outside of Limited. Looking at the current decks, the only one playing multiple different walkers is Esper Control, and they are both the most likely to play and most likely to be able to defend against The Elderspell.
Even if we are getting 37 new walkers in WAR, their power level isn't too high. That means that your opponent destroying them after one use isn't going to be backbreaking, even if they get a 2-for-1. No reasonable person is going to drop their 3rd walker onto the table against an opponent playing black without a way to protect the walkers, and that is if we even see decks running 3 different PWs.
However, I absolutely love the flavour implications and the synergy here. If your opponent does have a couple of PWs in play and you cast Bolas and his Elder Spell, you win. Unless they have a hero to stand up against you, of course. Love it. I hope WotC doesn't abandon this way of storytelling in the future. It's much better than having a couple of story spotlight cards. Of course, their timing leaves a lot to be desired, but the concept and execution are sound.
"Thought you were so cute Atraxa well guess what you have no field and now I can ult with Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded. Now look who's the real EDH powerhouse."
The elder spell is ridiculous. The planeswalker card type doesn't really need this kind of hate. I think I pass on playing any planeswalker in limited or at least not more than one at time.
Your reaction tells me they made this card absolutely perfect. If you're going to stuff a set full of PW's, you NEED some easy, cheap ways to answer them. Spot removal won't get you there. You need some MASS removal options too. I mean...you might even put in some ways that really do punish a foolish player who just floods the board with PW's every single game. Incidentally, its the same reason 'busted/unfair' Wrath of God exists: There's a price to be paid for being too aggressive...so don't do it.
TL;DR: If you look at Elder Spell and it makes you stop and pause. "Wow. Is it worth it to play a bunch of PW's in my deck? Yikes. Maybe not..", then guess what...this is exactly why this card was printed.
I'm pretty impressed. 2 mana is good.
I am not talking about constructed. I think the card is perfectly fine there but in limited? You will get 7 planeswalker in the Prerelease package and most player will end up with playing at least 2. This card is totally bonkers and unfair. You can't compare this with wrath of God. This is a one sited, 2 cc planeswalker wrath with upside. Even if your opponent doesn't play any planeswalker you can destroy your own to reach a ultimate. Not even a death card if your opponent doesn't play any planeswalker. I can't see why the spot removal wasn't enough for limited. There are solid removal spell even at common.
The elder spell is ridiculous. The planeswalker card type doesn't really need this kind of hate. I think I pass on playing any planeswalker in limited or at least not more than one at time.
Why not? Walkers are just another permanent to destroy.
Show me the 2cmc card that destroys "any number of" artifacts. Or lands.
For enchantments, we do have Back to Nature - this is the closest parallel I can find, yet it blows up your stuff, too, rather than being selective and one-sided.
There's only one 2cmc card that destroys all creatures, but it telegraphs itself and is conditional.
For lands, we have Impending Disaster, which again telegraphs itself and is slow. Serenity is the same.
And those three are all old cards and can be destroyed before their upkeep trigger; we have nothing comparable to The Elderspell in terms of shear power and ability to wipe out an entire player's board.
Who cares though? Yes, its VERY VERY strong. In a format with a ton of VERY VERY strong walkers at low CMC, and a looming Teferi that is quietly one of the strongest Walkers of all time.
Removal needs to be strong. The game is better, by far, when it is. Heck, the Elder Spell isnt even an instant, and its double Black, not even 1B!
I am not talking about constructed. I think the card is perfectly fine there but in limited? You will get 7 planeswalker in the Prerelease package and most player will end up with playing at least 2. This card is totally bonkers and unfair. You can't compare this with wrath of God. This is a one sited, 2 cc planeswalker wrath with upside. Even if your opponent doesn't play any planeswalker you can destroy your own to reach a ultimate. Not even a death card if your opponent doesn't play any planeswalker. I can't see why the spot removal wasn't enough for limited. There are solid removal spell even at common.
Well, for one thing, this is a rare. I don't think this is getting anywhere CLOSE to the best rare in limited. Did you play during fate reforged? I played during fate reforged.
For a second thing, you just said yourself - running around 2 walkers? I mean, is plummet a hideously broken limited card? Also costs 2 and kills something most decks will have a couple of, and probably at a decent mana advantage. Sure, this can get you 2 loyalty, but that won't be a major deal unless you have a rare+ walker close to ulting, which is a lot less likely than an uncommon one where you just get decent value. And compared to flyers, they'll probably get immediate value out of their pw first, which most flyers will not.
Anytime your "broken rare" can be reasonably compared to plummet...you might be overreacting just a smidge.
The elder spell is ridiculous. The planeswalker card type doesn't really need this kind of hate. I think I pass on playing any planeswalker in limited or at least not more than one at time.
Why not? Walkers are just another permanent to destroy.
Show me the 2cmc card that destroys "any number of" artifacts. Or lands.
For enchantments, we do have Back to Nature - this is the closest parallel I can find, yet it blows up your stuff, too, rather than being selective and one-sided.
There's only one 2cmc card that destroys all creatures, but it telegraphs itself and is conditional.
For lands, we have Impending Disaster, which again telegraphs itself and is slow. Serenity is the same.
And those three are all old cards and can be destroyed before their upkeep trigger; we have nothing comparable to The Elderspell in terms of shear power and ability to wipe out an entire player's board.
Who cares though? Yes, its VERY VERY strong. In a format with a ton of VERY VERY strong walkers at low CMC, and a looming Teferi that is quietly one of the strongest Walkers of all time.
Removal needs to be strong. The game is better, by far, when it is. Heck, the Elder Spell isnt even an instant, and its double Black, not even 1B!
The spell is good enough at it is. The only thing this things needs is a mythic rare rarity. Teferi players are the hardest to hit with this because blue can interact with spells and protect their stuff unlike other colors.
The spell is good enough at it is. The only thing this things needs is a mythic rare rarity.
Are we actually making the argument here that a card should be rarer for the sake of being unaffordable and unattainable and thus making it less likely to appear in lower budget players' decks?
It's long bugged me how many magic players have the "If I can't beat you with my brain I'll beat you with my wallet" attitude, but most aren't so brazen to admit to it by wishing good cards were rarer.
The Elderspell is gross. Talk about a "safety valve" for Superfriends.dec. I guess everyone is going to REALLY need Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor to protect them - no wonder she gets top billing on the movie poster. I guess they asked "how pushed do we need to make this card to make it worth maindecking" and well this is super duper pushed.
Also RIP Ral Zarek (probably)
EDIT: Due to wording, it looks like Kasmina will only add a 2 mana tax to The Elderspell even if your opponent targets five or more 'walkers, so...RIP Superfriends.
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Anytime your "broken rare" can be reasonably compared to plummet...you might be overreacting just a smidge.
What? Don't be ridiculous. This card is nowhere comparable to Plummet. Not even remotely. Plummet doesn't have a virtual infinite amount of targets like this do. Plummet doesn't give the opportunity to win the game out of nowhere like this do, if you control a PW. Plummet isn't one side mass removal of an entire permanent type, this it is.
Oh, and did I mention that Plummet is useless if opponents don't play the thing it removes, while this can still be a build-around card for combo purposes for your own deck?
Yeah sure, probably this card is not maindeckable in constructed because few decks play a consistent amount of PWs...But as a sideboard card, this is excellent, in the right meta. I would compare this more to the old elemental blasts (niche and narrow use, but cheap, powerful and effective in what they do).
I don’t know if that’s ral zarek/ral, izzet viceroy or Teyo, the Shieldmage in the elderpell art. The clothing more resembles a Ral, but there’s no streaks of white hair on the walker’s head like Ral, the head more resembles Teyo to me. (Also bracers on the forearms are something neither walker has ever been depicted as wearing)
I wonder who are the two walkers in the foreground and background.
OMG that artwork on Deliver unto Evil... i want this card with the old frame, would suit the artwork so much better. got instantly nostalgic magic feelings when i saw the artwork... awesome
Okay, now we can have Cavern of Souls for planeswalkers. Seriously, what were they thinking? Are they going to include a card that gives planeswalkers you control indestructible or hexproof or something?
I don't think that's Ral or Teyo in The Elderspell's artwork, I think it's just a poor shmuck who walked to the wrong plane at the wrong time.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Okay, now we can have Cavern of Souls for planeswalkers. Seriously, what were they thinking? Are they going to include a card that gives planeswalkers you control indestructible or hexproof or something?
I don't think that's Ral or Teyo in The Elderspell's artwork, I think it's just a poor shmuck who walked to the wrong plane at the wrong time.
Kasnima does help with that, its not hexproof but having to pay 2 more per target makes it a lot worse.
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Okay, now we can have Cavern of Souls for planeswalkers. Seriously, what were they thinking? Are they going to include a card that gives planeswalkers you control indestructible or hexproof or something?
The year is 2003
Wizards print a brand new set called "Mirrodin", with a novel focus on artifacts as a card type to flesh them out in ways they haven't been done before.
Then they include this card;
The MemnaspellBB
Sorcery (R)
Any number of target artifacts lose all abilities until end of turn, then destroy them. Choose an artifact you control. Put either two +1/+1 counters or two charge counters on it for each artifact destroyed this way.
basically what this feels like
How warping can a single card be? It would be one thing if it was just a hoser, but instead its an "I win on the spot" in any planeswalker vs planeswalker matchup, encouraging you to use walkers and beat your opponents walkers, thereby creating a degenerate arms race around one card.
I think the main problem about Elder Spell is not the manacost. You have no reasons to cast it on turn 2 - there are no targets.
You can cast it to get rid of other walkers and pump your walker to the level of ultimate which usually wins you the game - in this case, casting other things on the same turn doesn't really matter.
That's why the mana cost doesn't matter much I guess. That's how I see it. The spell is powerful in the right environment but that's all. Maybe it being cheap also helps your opponents to counter it with cheaper counterspells - but in the other hand, taxing counterspells would do poor job at countering it. So-so.
I think the main problem about Elder Spell is not the manacost. You have no reasons to cast it on turn 2 - there are no targets.
You can cast it to get rid of other walkers and pump your walker to the level of ultimate which usually wins you the game - in this case, casting other things on the same turn doesn't really matter.
That's why the mana cost doesn't matter much I guess. That's how I see it. The spell is powerful in the right environment but that's all. Maybe it being cheap also helps your opponents to counter it with cheaper counterspells - but in the other hand, taxing counterspells would do poor job at countering it. So-so.
Of course it matters because you can have mana for protecting it with counterspells. ALso control matchups is where this thing is going to be played more.
Okay, now we can have Cavern of Souls for planeswalkers. Seriously, what were they thinking? Are they going to include a card that gives planeswalkers you control indestructible or hexproof or something?
Kasmina only increases the cost by 2, no? It's not '2 per PW'. If I read the card correctly, Kasmina says 'spells that target a PW you control (among other things) cost 2 more'. So it is only a binary check: 'Does the Elderspell target a PW you control? If yes, increase cost by 2. If no, don't increase cost by 2.'
The year is 2003
Wizards print a brand new set called "Mirrodin", with a novel focus on artifacts as a card type to flesh them out in ways they haven't been done before.
Then they include this card;
The MemnaspellBB
Sorcery (R)
Any number of target artifacts lose all abilities until end of turn, then destroy them. Choose an artifact you control. Put either two +1/+1 counters or two charge counters on it for each artifact destroyed this way.
basically what this feels like
How warping can a single card be? It would be one thing if it was just a hoser, but instead its an "I win on the spot" in any planeswalker vs planeswalker matchup, encouraging you to use walkers and beat your opponents walkers, thereby creating a degenerate arms race around one card.
They did make that card, it was called arcbound ravager
I think the main problem about Elder Spell is not the manacost. You have no reasons to cast it on turn 2 - there are no targets.
You can cast it to get rid of other walkers and pump your walker to the level of ultimate which usually wins you the game - in this case, casting other things on the same turn doesn't really matter.
That's why the mana cost doesn't matter much I guess. That's how I see it. The spell is powerful in the right environment but that's all. Maybe it being cheap also helps your opponents to counter it with cheaper counterspells - but in the other hand, taxing counterspells would do poor job at countering it. So-so.
Of course it matters because you can have mana for protecting it with counterspells. ALso control matchups is where this thing is going to be played more.
Not to mention the inexpensive mana cost makes it easier to play a planeswalker of your own prior to casting The Elderspell if you didn't already have one in play. The fact that this costs 2 is a huge deal.
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For enchantments, we do have Back to Nature - this is the closest parallel I can find, yet it blows up your stuff, too, rather than being selective and one-sided.
There's only one 2cmc card that destroys all creatures, but it telegraphs itself and is conditional.
For lands, we have Impending Disaster, which again telegraphs itself and is slow.
Serenity is the same.
And those three are all old cards and can be destroyed before their upkeep trigger; we have nothing comparable to The Elderspell in terms of shear power and ability to wipe out an entire player's board.
The Elderspell should cost at least 4cmc to be fair.
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Even if we are getting 37 new walkers in WAR, their power level isn't too high. That means that your opponent destroying them after one use isn't going to be backbreaking, even if they get a 2-for-1. No reasonable person is going to drop their 3rd walker onto the table against an opponent playing black without a way to protect the walkers, and that is if we even see decks running 3 different PWs.
However, I absolutely love the flavour implications and the synergy here. If your opponent does have a couple of PWs in play and you cast Bolas and his Elder Spell, you win. Unless they have a hero to stand up against you, of course. Love it. I hope WotC doesn't abandon this way of storytelling in the future. It's much better than having a couple of story spotlight cards. Of course, their timing leaves a lot to be desired, but the concept and execution are sound.
Planeswalkers are just attackable enchantments.
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I am not talking about constructed. I think the card is perfectly fine there but in limited? You will get 7 planeswalker in the Prerelease package and most player will end up with playing at least 2. This card is totally bonkers and unfair. You can't compare this with wrath of God. This is a one sited, 2 cc planeswalker wrath with upside. Even if your opponent doesn't play any planeswalker you can destroy your own to reach a ultimate. Not even a death card if your opponent doesn't play any planeswalker. I can't see why the spot removal wasn't enough for limited. There are solid removal spell even at common.
Who cares though? Yes, its VERY VERY strong. In a format with a ton of VERY VERY strong walkers at low CMC, and a looming Teferi that is quietly one of the strongest Walkers of all time.
Removal needs to be strong. The game is better, by far, when it is. Heck, the Elder Spell isnt even an instant, and its double Black, not even 1B!
Spirits
More like that please, Wizards.
3BB
Sorcery
You lose the game.
For a second thing, you just said yourself - running around 2 walkers? I mean, is plummet a hideously broken limited card? Also costs 2 and kills something most decks will have a couple of, and probably at a decent mana advantage. Sure, this can get you 2 loyalty, but that won't be a major deal unless you have a rare+ walker close to ulting, which is a lot less likely than an uncommon one where you just get decent value. And compared to flyers, they'll probably get immediate value out of their pw first, which most flyers will not.
Anytime your "broken rare" can be reasonably compared to plummet...you might be overreacting just a smidge.
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The spell is good enough at it is. The only thing this things needs is a mythic rare rarity. Teferi players are the hardest to hit with this because blue can interact with spells and protect their stuff unlike other colors.
Are we actually making the argument here that a card should be rarer for the sake of being unaffordable and unattainable and thus making it less likely to appear in lower budget players' decks?
It's long bugged me how many magic players have the "If I can't beat you with my brain I'll beat you with my wallet" attitude, but most aren't so brazen to admit to it by wishing good cards were rarer.
Also RIP Ral Zarek (probably)
EDIT: Due to wording, it looks like Kasmina will only add a 2 mana tax to The Elderspell even if your opponent targets five or more 'walkers, so...RIP Superfriends.
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What? Don't be ridiculous. This card is nowhere comparable to Plummet. Not even remotely. Plummet doesn't have a virtual infinite amount of targets like this do. Plummet doesn't give the opportunity to win the game out of nowhere like this do, if you control a PW. Plummet isn't one side mass removal of an entire permanent type, this it is.
Oh, and did I mention that Plummet is useless if opponents don't play the thing it removes, while this can still be a build-around card for combo purposes for your own deck?
Yeah sure, probably this card is not maindeckable in constructed because few decks play a consistent amount of PWs...But as a sideboard card, this is excellent, in the right meta. I would compare this more to the old elemental blasts (niche and narrow use, but cheap, powerful and effective in what they do).
Me too. The elderspell is a glorified removal spell, Deliver unto Evil is potentially gamebreaking.
I wonder who are the two walkers in the foreground and background.
oh and ye, the card seems to be good too
I don't think that's Ral or Teyo in The Elderspell's artwork, I think it's just a poor shmuck who walked to the wrong plane at the wrong time.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Kasnima does help with that, its not hexproof but having to pay 2 more per target makes it a lot worse.
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Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor makes this cost more?
Wizards print a brand new set called "Mirrodin", with a novel focus on artifacts as a card type to flesh them out in ways they haven't been done before.
Then they include this card;
basically what this feels like
How warping can a single card be? It would be one thing if it was just a hoser, but instead its an "I win on the spot" in any planeswalker vs planeswalker matchup, encouraging you to use walkers and beat your opponents walkers, thereby creating a degenerate arms race around one card.
You can cast it to get rid of other walkers and pump your walker to the level of ultimate which usually wins you the game - in this case, casting other things on the same turn doesn't really matter.
That's why the mana cost doesn't matter much I guess. That's how I see it. The spell is powerful in the right environment but that's all. Maybe it being cheap also helps your opponents to counter it with cheaper counterspells - but in the other hand, taxing counterspells would do poor job at countering it. So-so.
Of course it matters because you can have mana for protecting it with counterspells. ALso control matchups is where this thing is going to be played more.
Kasmina only increases the cost by 2, no? It's not '2 per PW'. If I read the card correctly, Kasmina says 'spells that target a PW you control (among other things) cost 2 more'. So it is only a binary check: 'Does the Elderspell target a PW you control? If yes, increase cost by 2. If no, don't increase cost by 2.'
They did make that card, it was called arcbound ravager
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