Ok - here's my recollection of the story: If you read the first part of it again, it starts with Sorin basically coming out of something like a coma after the effort it took him to create Avacyn and the Helvault. While he's in this disoriented, out-of-it state, Nahiri turns up:
N: Where the hell were you?!
S: Oh. Hey. Hi Nahiri. Do you like my helvault? It's not as good as you could make, but not bad eh?
N: The Eldrazi just wrecked Zendikar? Didn't you get my distress call?
S: Er. No. I didn't.
N: Why the hell not?!
S: Ah. *****. My defences of Innistrad might have blocked it. Hadn't thought of that. Sorry.
N: WTF man! You were supposed to help me!
S: Um. Yeah. Do you need me to come back to Zendikar with you?
N: No! It's fine now. I sorted it.
S: Right. Ok. So...
N: I'm still immensely pissed at you though.
S: Ok...
Avacyn turns up.
A: Threat detected. Attack mode.
N: WTF. (starts beating on Avacyn, and winning)
S: (Still coming out of the effing coma for crying out loud.) Ah. Bugger. Um. Stop? Avacyn's part of the defences I made and...
N: AAAAAARRRRGGGGHH! (Keeps killing Avacyn)
Sorin steps in. Tries to get her to stop. Nahiri attacks him too, just to what? Prove herself to him? Sorin ends up sealing her in the helvault to protect himself, Avacyn and the whole of Innistrad. I don't get the impression it was a long, thought out, considered strategy. More '*****. How do I stop her. Look - Helvault!' FWOP. Sealed Nahiri.
After that he couldn't really get her out again without destroying the helvault, which was the other half of his defence mechanism for Innistrad that he'd just spent most of his energy creating, so that wasn't really an option. And if you look at his response to Ugin when he finally gets to chat to the resurrected dragon, you can tell he's ashamed of what happened.
All of which makes me more on Sorin's side than Nahiri's.
BUT, and this is my real gripe with it all, the whole damned storyline of their fight and Nahiri ending up in the vault was just so James Wyatt could have Emrakul come to Innistrad and feck it up. It was totally contrived to facilitate a storyline that I hated, because they butchered Innistrad, Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna etc. in the process, and they had to make both Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for it to happen. I hate everything about that creative decision. That's why I'm pissed that they're carrying it on here. They character-assassinated two walkers that I really liked, just to ruin the plane I most liked. I genuinely stopped following the Magic storyline after that for a couple of years until Ixalan.
And now we get an in-your-face reminder that they chose to make Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for no good reason.
Post-script: All the character attributes that made Sorin a cool, detached character have now been given to Davriel. I hope he doesn't get fecked over by creative the same way. Leave him safely in Brandon Sanderson's hands please.
ALL of this.... Thank you. (insert clapping emote here)
I'm totally behind Sorin. Both are completely at fault. Sorin should have fessed up to being a bit winded at the time Nahiri showed up instead of totally dismissive, Nahiri should have listened and read between the lines of what Sorin said... and Avacyn should've been able to BTFO just a wee bit. Yeah. Sorin is now lost his cool, is nowhere near as cool because of it and the potential that Nahiri had to be an awesome character when she was finally created in the commander sets was slaughtered like livestock when this bruhaha went down.
I personally find it more amusing the argument continuing on Ravnica, I do hope that Ugin comes in and redirects them to Bolas, then ships them off somewhere else to finish their spat... but I think that Ugin will have more.... pressing matters with his Broski.
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MTG Junky... First packs being a starter of each 4th Edition and Ice Age. Good Grief, I've been playing since 1995? Where does the time go!
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this is mtgs, where occam's razor is so blunt it can't cut jello any more.
The problem is.. Nahiri might also attack Ugin, because the spirit dragon did not help / was not able to help when some eldrazi first got out of their prison.
Just wait til she learns Sorin actually did show up on Zendikar later to try and re-strengthen the seal, only for Nissa to break it. And that Jace, Chandra, Sarkhan, and Bolas all had a hand in the Eldrazi being released as well. And then we have Ob Nixilis with his hatred for Nahiri, Nissa, and the Gatewatch.
BUT, and this is my real gripe with it all, the whole damned storyline of their fight and Nahiri ending up in the vault was just so James Wyatt could have Emrakul come to Innistrad and feck it up. It was totally contrived to facilitate a storyline that I hated, because they butchered Innistrad, Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna etc. in the process, and they had to make both Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for it to happen. I hate everything about that creative decision. That's why I'm pissed that they're carrying it on here. They character-assassinated two walkers that I really liked, just to ruin the plane I most liked. I genuinely stopped following the Magic storyline after that for a couple of years until Ixalan.
And now we get an in-your-face reminder that they chose to make Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for no good reason.
Post-script: All the character attributes that made Sorin a cool, detached character have now been given to Davriel. I hope he doesn't get fecked over by creative the same way. Leave him safely in Brandon Sanderson's hands please.
I hear you. While Innistrad isn't one of my favorites, I liked how Avacyn Restored ended the original block. The plane's problems weren't completely gone, the balance of light and darkness was simply restored. I had hoped that a return visit would add a fourth Angel sister who would serve as the main antagonist, returning after being banished or sealed away for a long time (say, in the Helvault?) Then SOI comes along and completely trashes AVR's hopeful ending.
Sorin reminded me of Castlevania's Alucard when I first saw him (just look at Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - still his coolest card), and seeing that he was a black-aligned character who wasn't outright evil was refreshing. Yeah, he could be jaded and a jerk, but there was an underlying vibe of good intentions. Then SOI comes along and makes it clear he only created Avacyn so the Vampires' feeding stock wouldn't die out, leaving the Vampires to feed on each other. And thus he became more and more typical Vampire, and more and more typical black. At this point him having white feels like a joke, he might as well be monoblack or even BR like the Vampires he once deviated from.
And seeing that Nahiri was a Kor with an Equipment focus made her really cool when I first saw her; I've loved Equipment ever since I started playing the game. And the Kor were one of my favorite parts about Zendikar because of their close association with Equipment. Then SOI comes along and turns her into a rage-blinded ***** who callously tears apart families by bringing Emrakul to Innistrad, becoming worse than Sorin. Like Sorin, she doesn't deserve the white mana in her cost at this point.
So yeah, SOI ruined their potential as characters. Maybe it was intended from the get-go, but that's no excuse for teasing us with something cooler than what we got.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Emrakul was planned to invade Innistrad since the first Innistrad block ended. It was a draft they had for the return even before BtZo rt he gatewatch to play on theme since Lovecraft was a gothic horror writer before he shifted it into comic horror. Hence why Bloodborne also mixed the too.
And that was also a mistake because cosmic horror and serialized storytelling don't mix as evidenced by how much of a joke Galactus is nowadays.
If your Cthulhu can't win because you have to keeep squeezing each cent off that IP, then it's not scary, cool, or truly Lovecraftian.
A cephalid invasion, War of the Worlds style, would've been much more fitting. And they could've kept the mind control, creepy cult and mutants because cephalids are powerful psionics with high magitech.
I... never said they were mutually exclusive. Saying "it wasn't just vengeance" clearly says that she's doing both.
Because it is about motivation, at the point that she was assaulting him it was very clearly about vengeance, "You are coming to Zendikar or else." isn't to save Zendikar. Nahiri went there looking for a fight under the lie of "I wanna make sure my friend is okay."
She wasn't trying to kill him. She wanted to drag him back to Zendikar.
Using potentially lethal force against someone she knew was in no condition to fight back, she realized that he was over exerted the moment he didn't instantly thump her.
And locking someone up forever when someone is trying to make you honor your promise to me is an overreaction.
When they are continuing to assault you with lethal force after he very clearly told her to go home after he had her trapped with Helvault magic already. He gave her the chance to leave.
Don't make promises you can't keep
Any other time he would have been fully capable of keeping it Nahiri just picked an incredibly poor time to show up. if Nahiri had come back after Sorin had gotten some rest, and talked to him like a rational being instead of trying to stick flaming swords in his chest. You keep ignoring the fact that Sorin was exhausted, despite being Godlike Old-walkers did have limits. Here is the correct answer for what a White-Alighted character should have done the moment she realized that Sorin was already at his limits.
"What the heck did you do to yourself? I am going to go tell Ugin about this..and when we come back we can go to Zendikar and check things out." at which point they would have had a MUCH more important topic to deal with. Something far FAR more important than their little lover's spat.
Ugin being dead.
Not needing his help right then doesn't exempt him from the promise though.
No but do you know what does excuse him? The fact that he didn't hear the eye go off due to an accident, an unintended consequence of his Avacyn spell. It was not purposeful, it was not malicious.
And as a note (and I am not really sure cuz not a Vorthos) but it seems like the Helvault's magic is very intricate as Liliana had to weave a spell in which Thalia had to choose for it to open instead of Lilly just breaking it herself. I don't think it was possible for Sorin to just take her out.
Once again, if we take the card Helvault into consideration, the only way to let something out is to destroy the entire thing.
I was talking about dragging Emrakul to Innistrad. It wasn't just vengeance against Sorin, it was helping Zendikar as well. I don't think when Nahiri went to Innistrad originally it had anything to do with vengeance.
Still not seeing "lethal" force, especially given how hard it is to kill an Oldwalker. Painful force sure. Ending Sorin's life? Doubtful. Nothing we've seen about Nahiri indicates she couldn't control her power to the point she was going to accidentally kill Sorin.
He gave her the chance to leave doesn't mean he was in the right. He failed his obligation. I'm also finding it really weird that you think "White-aligned" somehow means "soft". White is perfectly capable of being upset, especially when someone is engaging in a selfish action (which, no matter which way you slice it, the Eldrazi are a bigger issue than Innistrad alone).
I don't think it excuses him. He could have chosen to check in before he did the spell. He could have researched what he was doing more carefully. He could have done any number of things to indicate that he held the promise more importantly than he did. He didn't care about it beyond "what does this mean for Innistrad". That's all there is to it. That's why he's Orzhov instead of actually White-aligned, because he cares very deeply about a subsection of the multiverse, Innistrad, and will do what he can to protect it. But beyond that he doesn't care.
wasn't just vengeance against Sorin, it was helping Zendikar as well.
It was both, the fact that it helped Zendikar does not change the fact that she specifically dragged Emrakul to Innistrad to cause as much harm to Innistrad as possible. Purposefully diverting a weapon of mass to a populated area so it doesn't land on your house is terrible but understandable, having that weapon of mass destruction fall on another country because you don't like one of it's inhabitants is reprehensible.
Still not seeing "lethal" force, especially given how hard it is to kill an Oldwalker
Because killing an oldwalker only requires dealing enough damage at once to completely disrupt their thought process, Dyfed was killed by a completely normal scalpel, given that Sorin spent an unknown amount of time doing a pair of rituals that we know for a fact expended the majority of his power, Nahiri's initial assault could very well have killed Sorin.
He gave her the chance to leave doesn't mean he was in the right.
No, but it means that he is perfectly in the right to defend himself from an assailant. You keep glossing over the fact that she assaulted him, she is a threat to him. Sorin gave her more chances than she really deserved and Nahiri had made it crystal clear that she was going to continue to assault him unless he stopped her.
'm also finding it really weird that you think "White-aligned"
I am not arguing that at all, Sorin being Orzhov definitely makes sense. He has a specific goal that he cares about and will achieve that goal at all costs.
He could have chosen to check in before he did the spell.
He had no reason too, Ugin's Eye hadn't gone off, and neither Nahiri or Ugin had come to tell him anything was up, and through the entire fight Nahiri couldn't be bothered to take a day or two to find either of them. Do you think Sorin would have ignored her if she had showed up and said "THE ELDRAZI ARE GETTING FREE?" instead of showing up after she strengthened the seal and starting the conversation with. "They were getting free but I fixed it."
saying "I fixed it" means that there is no current danger, note how Sorin did show up when the Eye went off in Zendikar 1.
He could have researched what he was doing more carefully.
With who exactly? We don't have many examples of something close to what Sorin did and none of them are really natural occurrences. Neither Ravnica nor Dominaria's sharding effects were on purpose.
But beyond that he doesn't care.
We don't know that, simply because Nahiri..told him that everything was fine.
Oh man it's this whole discussion about which one of these two jerks is the bigger jerk... again...
I mean, by stance has always been they're both monumental jerks and acting like either one of them is innocent is silly. But for some reason people like to defend Sorin and act like he's blameless. *shrugs*
Just wait til she learns Sorin actually did show up on Zendikar later to try and re-strengthen the seal, only for Nissa to break it. And that Jace, Chandra, Sarkhan, and Bolas all had a hand in the Eldrazi being released as well. And then we have Ob Nixilis with his hatred for Nahiri, Nissa, and the Gatewatch.
BUT, and this is my real gripe with it all, the whole damned storyline of their fight and Nahiri ending up in the vault was just so James Wyatt could have Emrakul come to Innistrad and feck it up. It was totally contrived to facilitate a storyline that I hated, because they butchered Innistrad, Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna etc. in the process, and they had to make both Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for it to happen. I hate everything about that creative decision. That's why I'm pissed that they're carrying it on here. They character-assassinated two walkers that I really liked, just to ruin the plane I most liked. I genuinely stopped following the Magic storyline after that for a couple of years until Ixalan.
And now we get an in-your-face reminder that they chose to make Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for no good reason.
Post-script: All the character attributes that made Sorin a cool, detached character have now been given to Davriel. I hope he doesn't get fecked over by creative the same way. Leave him safely in Brandon Sanderson's hands please.
I hear you. While Innistrad isn't one of my favorites, I liked how Avacyn Restored ended the original block. The plane's problems weren't completely gone, the balance of light and darkness was simply restored. I had hoped that a return visit would add a fourth Angel sister who would serve as the main antagonist, returning after being banished or sealed away for a long time (say, in the Helvault?) Then SOI comes along and completely trashes AVR's hopeful ending.
Sorin reminded me of Castlevania's Alucard when I first saw him (just look at Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - still his coolest card), and seeing that he was a black-aligned character who wasn't outright evil was refreshing. Yeah, he could be jaded and a jerk, but there was an underlying vibe of good intentions. Then SOI comes along and makes it clear he only created Avacyn so the Vampires' feeding stock wouldn't die out, leaving the Vampires to feed on each other. And thus he became more and more typical Vampire, and more and more typical black. At this point him having white feels like a joke, he might as well be monoblack or even BR like the Vampires he once deviated from.
And seeing that Nahiri was a Kor with an Equipment focus made her really cool when I first saw her; I've loved Equipment ever since I started playing the game. And the Kor were one of my favorite parts about Zendikar because of their close association with Equipment. Then SOI comes along and turns her into a rage-blinded ***** who callously tears apart families by bringing Emrakul to Innistrad, becoming worse than Sorin. Like Sorin, she doesn't deserve the white mana in her cost at this point.
So yeah, SOI ruined their potential as characters. Maybe it was intended from the get-go, but that's no excuse for teasing us with something cooler than what we got.
Nahiri should definitely know about those things. How the seal was broken, and all those involved.
As for what's inside your spoiler tag. Nahiri being a Kor and equipment related, that made her sort of unique for me. Her swords are even called "Stoneblades" --- the name of a deck in legacy. How cool is that! ^__^
Just wait til she learns Sorin actually did show up on Zendikar later to try and re-strengthen the seal, only for Nissa to break it. And that Jace, Chandra, Sarkhan, and Bolas all had a hand in the Eldrazi being released as well. And then we have Ob Nixilis with his hatred for Nahiri, Nissa, and the Gatewatch.
BUT, and this is my real gripe with it all, the whole damned storyline of their fight and Nahiri ending up in the vault was just so James Wyatt could have Emrakul come to Innistrad and feck it up. It was totally contrived to facilitate a storyline that I hated, because they butchered Innistrad, Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna etc. in the process, and they had to make both Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for it to happen. I hate everything about that creative decision. That's why I'm pissed that they're carrying it on here. They character-assassinated two walkers that I really liked, just to ruin the plane I most liked. I genuinely stopped following the Magic storyline after that for a couple of years until Ixalan.
And now we get an in-your-face reminder that they chose to make Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for no good reason.
Post-script: All the character attributes that made Sorin a cool, detached character have now been given to Davriel. I hope he doesn't get fecked over by creative the same way. Leave him safely in Brandon Sanderson's hands please.
I hear you. While Innistrad isn't one of my favorites, I liked how Avacyn Restored ended the original block. The plane's problems weren't completely gone, the balance of light and darkness was simply restored. I had hoped that a return visit would add a fourth Angel sister who would serve as the main antagonist, returning after being banished or sealed away for a long time (say, in the Helvault?) Then SOI comes along and completely trashes AVR's hopeful ending.
Sorin reminded me of Castlevania's Alucard when I first saw him (just look at Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - still his coolest card), and seeing that he was a black-aligned character who wasn't outright evil was refreshing. Yeah, he could be jaded and a jerk, but there was an underlying vibe of good intentions. Then SOI comes along and makes it clear he only created Avacyn so the Vampires' feeding stock wouldn't die out, leaving the Vampires to feed on each other. And thus he became more and more typical Vampire, and more and more typical black. At this point him having white feels like a joke, he might as well be monoblack or even BR like the Vampires he once deviated from.
And seeing that Nahiri was a Kor with an Equipment focus made her really cool when I first saw her; I've loved Equipment ever since I started playing the game. And the Kor were one of my favorite parts about Zendikar because of their close association with Equipment. Then SOI comes along and turns her into a rage-blinded ***** who callously tears apart families by bringing Emrakul to Innistrad, becoming worse than Sorin. Like Sorin, she doesn't deserve the white mana in her cost at this point.
So yeah, SOI ruined their potential as characters. Maybe it was intended from the get-go, but that's no excuse for teasing us with something cooler than what we got.
Nahiri should definitely know about those things. How the seal was broken, and all those involved.
As for what's inside your spoiler tag. Nahiri being a Kor and equipment related, that made her sort of unique for me. Her swords are even called "Stoneblades" --- the name of a deck in legacy. How cool is that! ^__^
Nahiri is about to give the killing blow to Sorin. Ugin appears and pats her on the shoulder.
Ugin: "Ehy, it wasn't his fault. You see that elf dressed in green, that guy with dragons, the soyboy in blue and the chick with the head on fire? Those ones freed the Eldrazi in the first place. Sorin came to warn me about them."
Nahiri: "So... I think I'll kill them too."
Ugin: "Spare the dragon guy, I owe him one... And if you could give me a hand killing my brother, I would appreciate it."
I've been thinking about some kinda jank deck that utilizes Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord and Nahiri, Storm of Stone together along with Gideon Blackblade and Blackblade Reforged. Both Sorin's and Nahiri's passive abilities pump up Gideon in his creature form and allow him to hit like a first striking, lifelinking tank. Attach a cheaply equipped (thanks to Nahiri) Blackblade to Gideon and attack for even more damage.
Turn 1: Land + ?
Turn 2: Land + Blackblade (although ideally this could be played at a much later time as well)
Turn 3: Land + Gideon
Turn 4: Equip Blackblade to Gideon. Swing for 7 OR play Sorin or Nahiri if we hit our fourth land drop.
The only weakness of this set-up thus far is having having to pay 2 or 3 mana each turn just to equip Gideon. I added the Blackblade for flavor purposes, but if we're able to play other legendary creatures in the deck, then this won't be much of an issue. The removal suite between both Gideon and Nahiri's - abilities is very powerful, and Sorin can bring back ANY creature from the graveyard provided he has enough loyalty. Vampire Tribal may actually become a thing. Yeah, I think there's a deck here...
I've been thinking about some kinda jank deck that utilizes Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord and Nahiri, Storm of Stone together along with Gideon Blackblade and Blackblade Reforged. Both Sorin's and Nahiri's passive abilities pump up Gideon in his creature form and allow him to hit like a first striking, lifelinking tank. Attach a cheaply equipped (thanks to Nahiri) Blackblade to Gideon and attack for even more damage.
Turn 1: Land + ?
Turn 2: Land + Blackblade (although ideally this could be played at a much later time as well)
Turn 3: Land + Gideon
Turn 4: Equip Blackblade to Gideon. Swing for 7 OR play Sorin or Nahiri if we hit our fourth land drop.
The only weakness of this set-up thus far is having having to pay 2 or 3 mana each turn just to equip Gideon. I added the Blackblade for flavor purposes, but if we're able to play other legendary creatures in the deck, then this won't be much of an issue. The removal suite between both Gideon and Nahiri's - abilities is very powerful, and Sorin can bring back ANY creature from the graveyard provided he has enough loyalty. Vampire Tribal may actually become a thing. Yeah, I think there's a deck here...
I'm planning on including the new Sorin in my Edgar Markhov commander. I think the recursion is really good, I run some of the Tarkir +1/+1 counter matter cards like Mer-Ek Nightblade and being able to make them into a vampire is really nice.
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Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
I have very strong opinions on the Nahiri story line.
First, although she was moved by vengeance I do not consider villainous to lure Emrakul to Innistrad: When Emrakul was set free she left the plane, where was she before she arrived to Innistrad? ravaging another plane. So the question is why should another plane, full of innocent people suffer first? if you know you cant't deal with an interplanar threat, at least you can save innocent planes, by sending it to wicked places. And Innistrad is a ver dark plane, so dark that even the trees murder. So dark that humans should have gone extinct were it not for Avacyn.
Responsibilities: I blame Sorin for leaving the multiverse in danger. Bolas would not have been able to unlock them with Nahiri protecting them. By trapping her and not caring to defeat those that tried to unlock the titans, he doomed the plane and set in risk many more, a much bigger plane than Innistrad. Millions died because of his actions. But did he care? no, because he knew his plane was protected.
On the personal feud: Nahiri never hated him, she went searching for him because she felt maybe he was in danger. When he told her he never bothered to care, it was not only a petty thing, but a betrayal to their friendship. He also said he could have murdered her right away when they met the first time, but he spared her, as if she owed her life to him, would any sane person say that to a friend? to any person? he is so selfish and narcissistic.
Finally on the player base reception: I see a lot of misogynyst subtext here, if you check out most of the social media reactions to her story, you find over and over the same kind of sexist narrative ''she is a *****'', ''she is just a pissed ex girl friend'', '' she is the epitome of crazy *****'' etc. I am just quoting the stuff I have read in reddit, mythic spoiler,etc. The thing is that they are more willing to forgive him just because he has this cool '' I do what I please'' vibe, if roles were reversed they would still support him, because a male vampire is more relatable than an angry woman. Even if morally she has better arguments and justifications.
Anyways I hope the character evolves in a sensible way, I expect her to be reasonable once she finds out Bolas released the titans, that Ugin was killed, and that the gatewatch saved the plane.
I have very strong opinions on the Nahiri story line.
First, although she was moved by vengeance I do not consider villainous to lure Emrakul to Innistrad: When Emrakul was set free she left the plane, where was she before she arrived to Innistrad? ravaging another plane. So the question is why should another plane, full of innocent people suffer first? if you know you cant't deal with an interplanar threat, at least you can save innocent planes, by sending it to wicked places. And Innistrad is a ver dark plane, so dark that even the trees murder. So dark that humans should have gone extinct were it not for Avacyn.
So should we just redirect nukes to 3rd world countries because, in reality, we would be "doing them a favor"? This argument is sooooo convoluted. Believe it or not, there are innocent people on Innistrad and it was considerably better with Avacyn on the plane. In fact, their whole way of life was far more balanced before Nahiri sent Emmy and turned them into Spaghetti monsters and then drove the angels crazy.
Responsibilities: I blame Sorin for leaving the multiverse in danger. Bolas would not have been able to unlock them with Nahiri protecting them. By trapping her and not caring to defeat those that tried to unlock the titans, he doomed the plane and set in risk many more, a much bigger plane than Innistrad. Millions died because of his actions. But did he care? no, because he knew his plane was protected.
HE DID NOT NOT leave the multiverse in danger he was actively trying to find Ugin to get help with the problem after Nissa, Chandra, Jace, and Sarkhan broke the locks. He knew the problem was beyond him and went looking for someone who knew more. And guess what with Ugin's knowledge the Gatewatch fixed the problem.
On the personal feud: Nahiri never hated him, she went searching for him because she felt maybe he was in danger. When he told her he never bothered to care, it was not only a petty thing, but a betrayal to their friendship. He also said he could have murdered her right away when they met the first time, but he spared her, as if she owed her life to him, would any sane person say that to a friend? to any person? he is so selfish and narcissistic.
They were never friends. It wasn't a close-knit relationship like the Gatewatch and a part of the reason I wish they would just abandon this fued for the sake of Sorin and Nahiri's fans. It is Batman vs Superman levels of stupidity that holds absolutely no weight compared to Marvel's Civil War. Let them go separate ways and never see each other again.
Finally on the player base reception: I see a lot of misogynyst subtext here, if you check out most of the social media reactions to her story, you find over and over the same kind of sexist narrative ''she is a *****'', ''she is just a pissed ex girl friend'', '' she is the epitome of crazy *****'' etc. I am just quoting the stuff I have read in reddit, mythic spoiler,etc. The thing is that they are more willing to forgive him just because he has this cool '' I do what I please'' vibe, if roles were reversed they would still support him, because a male vampire is more relatable than an angry woman. Even if morally she has better arguments and justifications.
Anyways I hope the character evolves in a sensible way, I expect her to be reasonable once she finds out Bolas released the titans, that Ugin was killed, and that the gatewatch saved the plane.
As for the subtext I can't comment. I don't even hate Nahiri, nor do I want her to die. At the end of the day, this was the creative team's half-baked way of "Let's make Innistrad Scary Again!" If I liked Nahiri before to be honest this story would have made me pissed, because as a somewhat Sorin fan it makes me pissed. What they did to Avacyn, Gisela, and Bruna makes me pissed. But with the way they've written her she has committed genocide purposefully which she will have to do some really really good redemption in order to be salvaged as a heroic figure. The key difference is that Sorin's mistake would be considered a crime of passion and Nahiri's would be considered premeditated mass murder. Creative seems to think they needed to checkmark the little box that says they need a white-aligned planeswalker villain and unfortunately her fans are going to be stuck with it.
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Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
Just wait til she learns Sorin actually did show up on Zendikar later to try and re-strengthen the seal, only for Nissa to break it. And that Jace, Chandra, Sarkhan, and Bolas all had a hand in the Eldrazi being released as well. And then we have Ob Nixilis with his hatred for Nahiri, Nissa, and the Gatewatch.
Nahiri should definitely know about those things. How the seal was broken, and all those involved.
As for what's inside your spoiler tag. Nahiri being a Kor and equipment related, that made her sort of unique for me. Her swords are even called "Stoneblades" --- the name of a deck in legacy. How cool is that! ^__^
Nahiri is about to give the killing blow to Sorin. Ugin appears and pats her on the shoulder.
Ugin: "Ehy, it wasn't his fault. You see that elf dressed in green, that guy with dragons, the soyboy in blue and the chick with the head on fire? Those ones freed the Eldrazi in the first place. Sorin came to warn me about them."
Nahiri: "So... I think I'll kill them too."
Ugin: "Spare the dragon guy, I owe him one... And if you could give me a hand killing my brother, I would appreciate it."
I think Sarkhan should not be held responsible, he only did those things because Ugin was whispering into his mind.
And the soyboy in blue cannot be killed by anyone. WoTC gives him plot armor. I think even if Jace time travelled to old phyrexia, even yawgmoth cannot kill him, because he is wotc cash cow.
On the personal feud: Nahiri never hated him, she went searching for him because she felt maybe he was in danger. When he told her he never bothered to care, it was not only a petty thing, but a betrayal to their friendship. He also said he could have murdered her right away when they met the first time, but he spared her, as if she owed her life to him, would any sane person say that to a friend? to any person? he is so selfish and narcissistic.
did not know about that part of the story, so thanks for posting.
I have very strong opinions on the Nahiri story line.
First, although she was moved by vengeance I do not consider villainous to lure Emrakul to Innistrad: When Emrakul was set free she left the plane, where was she before she arrived to Innistrad? ravaging another plane. So the question is why should another plane, full of innocent people suffer first? if you know you cant't deal with an interplanar threat, at least you can save innocent planes, by sending it to wicked places. And Innistrad is a ver dark plane, so dark that even the trees murder. So dark that humans should have gone extinct were it not for Avacyn.
Responsibilities: I blame Sorin for leaving the multiverse in danger. Bolas would not have been able to unlock them with Nahiri protecting them. By trapping her and not caring to defeat those that tried to unlock the titans, he doomed the plane and set in risk many more, a much bigger plane than Innistrad. Millions died because of his actions. But did he care? no, because he knew his plane was protected.
On the personal feud: Nahiri never hated him, she went searching for him because she felt maybe he was in danger. When he told her he never bothered to care, it was not only a petty thing, but a betrayal to their friendship. He also said he could have murdered her right away when they met the first time, but he spared her, as if she owed her life to him, would any sane person say that to a friend? to any person? he is so selfish and narcissistic.
Finally on the player base reception: I see a lot of misogynyst subtext here, if you check out most of the social media reactions to her story, you find over and over the same kind of sexist narrative ''she is a *****'', ''she is just a pissed ex girl friend'', '' she is the epitome of crazy *****'' etc. I am just quoting the stuff I have read in reddit, mythic spoiler,etc. The thing is that they are more willing to forgive him just because he has this cool '' I do what I please'' vibe, if roles were reversed they would still support him, because a male vampire is more relatable than an angry woman. Even if morally she has better arguments and justifications.
Anyways I hope the character evolves in a sensible way, I expect her to be reasonable once she finds out Bolas released the titans, that Ugin was killed, and that the gatewatch saved the plane.
If their sex were reversed but their actions remained the same, Nahiri would be in sensitivity training with Garruk instead of being so behemently protected from all criticism.
Ok - here's my recollection of the story: If you read the first part of it again, it starts with Sorin basically coming out of something like a coma after the effort it took him to create Avacyn and the Helvault. While he's in this disoriented, out-of-it state, Nahiri turns up:
N: Where the hell were you?!
S: Oh. Hey. Hi Nahiri. Do you like my helvault? It's not as good as you could make, but not bad eh?
N: The Eldrazi just wrecked Zendikar? Didn't you get my distress call?
S: Er. No. I didn't.
N: Why the hell not?!
S: Ah. *****. My defences of Innistrad might have blocked it. Hadn't thought of that. Sorry.
N: WTF man! You were supposed to help me!
S: Um. Yeah. Do you need me to come back to Zendikar with you?
N: No! It's fine now. I sorted it.
S: Right. Ok. So...
N: I'm still immensely pissed at you though.
S: Ok...
Avacyn turns up.
A: Threat detected. Attack mode.
N: WTF. (starts beating on Avacyn, and winning)
S: (Still coming out of the effing coma for crying out loud.) Ah. Bugger. Um. Stop? Avacyn's part of the defences I made and...
N: AAAAAARRRRGGGGHH! (Keeps killing Avacyn)
Sorin steps in. Tries to get her to stop. Nahiri attacks him too, just to what? Prove herself to him? Sorin ends up sealing her in the helvault to protect himself, Avacyn and the whole of Innistrad. I don't get the impression it was a long, thought out, considered strategy. More '*****. How do I stop her. Look - Helvault!' FWOP. Sealed Nahiri.
After that he couldn't really get her out again without destroying the helvault, which was the other half of his defence mechanism for Innistrad that he'd just spent most of his energy creating, so that wasn't really an option. And if you look at his response to Ugin when he finally gets to chat to the resurrected dragon, you can tell he's ashamed of what happened.
All of which makes me more on Sorin's side than Nahiri's.
BUT, and this is my real gripe with it all, the whole damned storyline of their fight and Nahiri ending up in the vault was just so James Wyatt could have Emrakul come to Innistrad and feck it up. It was totally contrived to facilitate a storyline that I hated, because they butchered Innistrad, Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna etc. in the process, and they had to make both Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for it to happen. I hate everything about that creative decision. That's why I'm pissed that they're carrying it on here. They character-assassinated two walkers that I really liked, just to ruin the plane I most liked. I genuinely stopped following the Magic storyline after that for a couple of years until Ixalan.
And now we get an in-your-face reminder that they chose to make Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for no good reason.
Post-script: All the character attributes that made Sorin a cool, detached character have now been given to Davriel. I hope he doesn't get fecked over by creative the same way. Leave him safely in Brandon Sanderson's hands please.
you've accurately summed up my feelings toward that entire block in a way that i never could. bravo.
i had almost the exact same reaction after the ******* up of innistrad. in fact, while i still roughly keep up with the story of magic... my faith in it is so completely gone i don't go out of my way any more, or hold any value in it.
almost hoping karn and teferi team up to go back in time and un**** everything wotc did to both zendikar and innistrad to turn them into rancid piles of dog ***** that no one wanted, but that'd also be a bit of a cop out and they wouldn't have bothered to learn from their mistakes.
its different when you **** a plane like amonkhet, it was only around for a set or two and thats woven into the story, but what they did to innistrad completely destroyed everything that people actually liked about the plane.
anyway, all of that said... i'm betting we don't actually find out how sorin escaped, and these two jerkoffs continue their pointless feud unabated. sorin also has the option to walk away and not engage nahiri whose entire motivation and character has now turned into this, but instead they reduce him to the same pointless simple garbage
I actually think the value of Jace is overrated. You can me any character the face as long as they get the best cards and show up often enough.
If Karn and Teferi keep getting the power they are receiving they could easily pass the likes of Jace, Chandra and Lili again. Most fans of Magic are not up to date on the Lore after all.
ALL of this.... Thank you. (insert clapping emote here)
I'm totally behind Sorin. Both are completely at fault. Sorin should have fessed up to being a bit winded at the time Nahiri showed up instead of totally dismissive, Nahiri should have listened and read between the lines of what Sorin said... and Avacyn should've been able to BTFO just a wee bit. Yeah. Sorin is now lost his cool, is nowhere near as cool because of it and the potential that Nahiri had to be an awesome character when she was finally created in the commander sets was slaughtered like livestock when this bruhaha went down.
I personally find it more amusing the argument continuing on Ravnica, I do hope that Ugin comes in and redirects them to Bolas, then ships them off somewhere else to finish their spat... but I think that Ugin will have more.... pressing matters with his Broski.
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I hear you. While Innistrad isn't one of my favorites, I liked how Avacyn Restored ended the original block. The plane's problems weren't completely gone, the balance of light and darkness was simply restored. I had hoped that a return visit would add a fourth Angel sister who would serve as the main antagonist, returning after being banished or sealed away for a long time (say, in the Helvault?) Then SOI comes along and completely trashes AVR's hopeful ending.
Sorin reminded me of Castlevania's Alucard when I first saw him (just look at Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - still his coolest card), and seeing that he was a black-aligned character who wasn't outright evil was refreshing. Yeah, he could be jaded and a jerk, but there was an underlying vibe of good intentions. Then SOI comes along and makes it clear he only created Avacyn so the Vampires' feeding stock wouldn't die out, leaving the Vampires to feed on each other. And thus he became more and more typical Vampire, and more and more typical black. At this point him having white feels like a joke, he might as well be monoblack or even BR like the Vampires he once deviated from.
And seeing that Nahiri was a Kor with an Equipment focus made her really cool when I first saw her; I've loved Equipment ever since I started playing the game. And the Kor were one of my favorite parts about Zendikar because of their close association with Equipment. Then SOI comes along and turns her into a rage-blinded ***** who callously tears apart families by bringing Emrakul to Innistrad, becoming worse than Sorin. Like Sorin, she doesn't deserve the white mana in her cost at this point.
So yeah, SOI ruined their potential as characters. Maybe it was intended from the get-go, but that's no excuse for teasing us with something cooler than what we got.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
If your Cthulhu can't win because you have to keeep squeezing each cent off that IP, then it's not scary, cool, or truly Lovecraftian.
A cephalid invasion, War of the Worlds style, would've been much more fitting. And they could've kept the mind control, creepy cult and mutants because cephalids are powerful psionics with high magitech.
Because it is about motivation, at the point that she was assaulting him it was very clearly about vengeance, "You are coming to Zendikar or else." isn't to save Zendikar. Nahiri went there looking for a fight under the lie of "I wanna make sure my friend is okay."
Using potentially lethal force against someone she knew was in no condition to fight back, she realized that he was over exerted the moment he didn't instantly thump her.
When they are continuing to assault you with lethal force after he very clearly told her to go home after he had her trapped with Helvault magic already. He gave her the chance to leave.
Any other time he would have been fully capable of keeping it Nahiri just picked an incredibly poor time to show up. if Nahiri had come back after Sorin had gotten some rest, and talked to him like a rational being instead of trying to stick flaming swords in his chest. You keep ignoring the fact that Sorin was exhausted, despite being Godlike Old-walkers did have limits. Here is the correct answer for what a White-Alighted character should have done the moment she realized that Sorin was already at his limits.
"What the heck did you do to yourself? I am going to go tell Ugin about this..and when we come back we can go to Zendikar and check things out." at which point they would have had a MUCH more important topic to deal with. Something far FAR more important than their little lover's spat.
Ugin being dead.
No but do you know what does excuse him? The fact that he didn't hear the eye go off due to an accident, an unintended consequence of his Avacyn spell. It was not purposeful, it was not malicious.
Once again, if we take the card Helvault into consideration, the only way to let something out is to destroy the entire thing.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Still not seeing "lethal" force, especially given how hard it is to kill an Oldwalker. Painful force sure. Ending Sorin's life? Doubtful. Nothing we've seen about Nahiri indicates she couldn't control her power to the point she was going to accidentally kill Sorin.
He gave her the chance to leave doesn't mean he was in the right. He failed his obligation. I'm also finding it really weird that you think "White-aligned" somehow means "soft". White is perfectly capable of being upset, especially when someone is engaging in a selfish action (which, no matter which way you slice it, the Eldrazi are a bigger issue than Innistrad alone).
I don't think it excuses him. He could have chosen to check in before he did the spell. He could have researched what he was doing more carefully. He could have done any number of things to indicate that he held the promise more importantly than he did. He didn't care about it beyond "what does this mean for Innistrad". That's all there is to it. That's why he's Orzhov instead of actually White-aligned, because he cares very deeply about a subsection of the multiverse, Innistrad, and will do what he can to protect it. But beyond that he doesn't care.
It was both, the fact that it helped Zendikar does not change the fact that she specifically dragged Emrakul to Innistrad to cause as much harm to Innistrad as possible. Purposefully diverting a weapon of mass to a populated area so it doesn't land on your house is terrible but understandable, having that weapon of mass destruction fall on another country because you don't like one of it's inhabitants is reprehensible.
Because killing an oldwalker only requires dealing enough damage at once to completely disrupt their thought process, Dyfed was killed by a completely normal scalpel, given that Sorin spent an unknown amount of time doing a pair of rituals that we know for a fact expended the majority of his power, Nahiri's initial assault could very well have killed Sorin.
No, but it means that he is perfectly in the right to defend himself from an assailant. You keep glossing over the fact that she assaulted him, she is a threat to him. Sorin gave her more chances than she really deserved and Nahiri had made it crystal clear that she was going to continue to assault him unless he stopped her.
I am not arguing that at all, Sorin being Orzhov definitely makes sense. He has a specific goal that he cares about and will achieve that goal at all costs.
He had no reason too, Ugin's Eye hadn't gone off, and neither Nahiri or Ugin had come to tell him anything was up, and through the entire fight Nahiri couldn't be bothered to take a day or two to find either of them. Do you think Sorin would have ignored her if she had showed up and said "THE ELDRAZI ARE GETTING FREE?" instead of showing up after she strengthened the seal and starting the conversation with. "They were getting free but I fixed it."
saying "I fixed it" means that there is no current danger, note how Sorin did show up when the Eye went off in Zendikar 1.
With who exactly? We don't have many examples of something close to what Sorin did and none of them are really natural occurrences. Neither Ravnica nor Dominaria's sharding effects were on purpose.
We don't know that, simply because Nahiri..told him that everything was fine.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
-Chandra Nalaar
I mean, by stance has always been they're both monumental jerks and acting like either one of them is innocent is silly. But for some reason people like to defend Sorin and act like he's blameless. *shrugs*
Nahiri should definitely know about those things. How the seal was broken, and all those involved.
As for what's inside your spoiler tag. Nahiri being a Kor and equipment related, that made her sort of unique for me. Her swords are even called "Stoneblades" --- the name of a deck in legacy. How cool is that! ^__^
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Ugin: "Ehy, it wasn't his fault. You see that elf dressed in green, that guy with dragons, the soyboy in blue and the chick with the head on fire? Those ones freed the Eldrazi in the first place. Sorin came to warn me about them."
Nahiri: "So... I think I'll kill them too."
Ugin: "Spare the dragon guy, I owe him one... And if you could give me a hand killing my brother, I would appreciate it."
Turn 1: Land + ?
Turn 2: Land + Blackblade (although ideally this could be played at a much later time as well)
Turn 3: Land + Gideon
Turn 4: Equip Blackblade to Gideon. Swing for 7 OR play Sorin or Nahiri if we hit our fourth land drop.
The only weakness of this set-up thus far is having having to pay 2 or 3 mana each turn just to equip Gideon. I added the Blackblade for flavor purposes, but if we're able to play other legendary creatures in the deck, then this won't be much of an issue. The removal suite between both Gideon and Nahiri's - abilities is very powerful, and Sorin can bring back ANY creature from the graveyard provided he has enough loyalty. Vampire Tribal may actually become a thing. Yeah, I think there's a deck here...
I'm planning on including the new Sorin in my Edgar Markhov commander. I think the recursion is really good, I run some of the Tarkir +1/+1 counter matter cards like Mer-Ek Nightblade and being able to make them into a vampire is really nice.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
First, although she was moved by vengeance I do not consider villainous to lure Emrakul to Innistrad: When Emrakul was set free she left the plane, where was she before she arrived to Innistrad? ravaging another plane. So the question is why should another plane, full of innocent people suffer first? if you know you cant't deal with an interplanar threat, at least you can save innocent planes, by sending it to wicked places. And Innistrad is a ver dark plane, so dark that even the trees murder. So dark that humans should have gone extinct were it not for Avacyn.
Responsibilities: I blame Sorin for leaving the multiverse in danger. Bolas would not have been able to unlock them with Nahiri protecting them. By trapping her and not caring to defeat those that tried to unlock the titans, he doomed the plane and set in risk many more, a much bigger plane than Innistrad. Millions died because of his actions. But did he care? no, because he knew his plane was protected.
On the personal feud: Nahiri never hated him, she went searching for him because she felt maybe he was in danger. When he told her he never bothered to care, it was not only a petty thing, but a betrayal to their friendship. He also said he could have murdered her right away when they met the first time, but he spared her, as if she owed her life to him, would any sane person say that to a friend? to any person? he is so selfish and narcissistic.
Finally on the player base reception: I see a lot of misogynyst subtext here, if you check out most of the social media reactions to her story, you find over and over the same kind of sexist narrative ''she is a *****'', ''she is just a pissed ex girl friend'', '' she is the epitome of crazy *****'' etc. I am just quoting the stuff I have read in reddit, mythic spoiler,etc. The thing is that they are more willing to forgive him just because he has this cool '' I do what I please'' vibe, if roles were reversed they would still support him, because a male vampire is more relatable than an angry woman. Even if morally she has better arguments and justifications.
Anyways I hope the character evolves in a sensible way, I expect her to be reasonable once she finds out Bolas released the titans, that Ugin was killed, and that the gatewatch saved the plane.
So should we just redirect nukes to 3rd world countries because, in reality, we would be "doing them a favor"? This argument is sooooo convoluted. Believe it or not, there are innocent people on Innistrad and it was considerably better with Avacyn on the plane. In fact, their whole way of life was far more balanced before Nahiri sent Emmy and turned them into Spaghetti monsters and then drove the angels crazy.
HE DID NOT NOT leave the multiverse in danger he was actively trying to find Ugin to get help with the problem after Nissa, Chandra, Jace, and Sarkhan broke the locks. He knew the problem was beyond him and went looking for someone who knew more. And guess what with Ugin's knowledge the Gatewatch fixed the problem.
They were never friends. It wasn't a close-knit relationship like the Gatewatch and a part of the reason I wish they would just abandon this fued for the sake of Sorin and Nahiri's fans. It is Batman vs Superman levels of stupidity that holds absolutely no weight compared to Marvel's Civil War. Let them go separate ways and never see each other again.
As for the subtext I can't comment. I don't even hate Nahiri, nor do I want her to die. At the end of the day, this was the creative team's half-baked way of "Let's make Innistrad Scary Again!" If I liked Nahiri before to be honest this story would have made me pissed, because as a somewhat Sorin fan it makes me pissed. What they did to Avacyn, Gisela, and Bruna makes me pissed. But with the way they've written her she has committed genocide purposefully which she will have to do some really really good redemption in order to be salvaged as a heroic figure. The key difference is that Sorin's mistake would be considered a crime of passion and Nahiri's would be considered premeditated mass murder. Creative seems to think they needed to checkmark the little box that says they need a white-aligned planeswalker villain and unfortunately her fans are going to be stuck with it.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
I think Sarkhan should not be held responsible, he only did those things because Ugin was whispering into his mind.
And the soyboy in blue cannot be killed by anyone. WoTC gives him plot armor. I think even if Jace time travelled to old phyrexia, even yawgmoth cannot kill him, because he is wotc cash cow.
did not know about that part of the story, so thanks for posting.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
you've accurately summed up my feelings toward that entire block in a way that i never could. bravo.
i had almost the exact same reaction after the ******* up of innistrad. in fact, while i still roughly keep up with the story of magic... my faith in it is so completely gone i don't go out of my way any more, or hold any value in it.
almost hoping karn and teferi team up to go back in time and un**** everything wotc did to both zendikar and innistrad to turn them into rancid piles of dog ***** that no one wanted, but that'd also be a bit of a cop out and they wouldn't have bothered to learn from their mistakes.
its different when you **** a plane like amonkhet, it was only around for a set or two and thats woven into the story, but what they did to innistrad completely destroyed everything that people actually liked about the plane.
anyway, all of that said... i'm betting we don't actually find out how sorin escaped, and these two jerkoffs continue their pointless feud unabated. sorin also has the option to walk away and not engage nahiri whose entire motivation and character has now turned into this, but instead they reduce him to the same pointless simple garbage
its out of place here.
If Karn and Teferi keep getting the power they are receiving they could easily pass the likes of Jace, Chandra and Lili again. Most fans of Magic are not up to date on the Lore after all.
Dreadhorde Arcanist casting it from the graveyard to buff again on Tenth District Legionnaire or/and Burning Prophet.