Manslaughter and murder are not the same. Sorin made many mistakes. Nahiri purposedly and directly caused the extinction of two hosts of angels, got the entire population of Hanweir turned into a monster blob, genocided the Markov clan and generally got innocent people killed. And she has no plan to stop, after leaving Innistrad to die she went looking for Ugin to continue destroying planets with her hysterics.
It's ok liking Nahiri as a villain, it's not the same to claim she wasn't wrong, evil or way past any relatable measure of retaliation.
We have no idea what she was going to do with regards to Ugin just yet. I imagine they’ll meet though and it’ll be used as building for the next time they want to bring in Nahiri/Sorin. Both of them kind of need bigger motivations though, as is they kind of make for one dimensional stories.
I would actually argue that her measure of retaliation was quite relatable. It was classic eye for an eye logic. You wreck my planet, I wreck your planet.
I mean Nahiri, Sorin and Ugin had a deal. Nahiri thinks that there was a breach of contract and therefore the blame for the destruction of Zendikar falls in her mind with Sorin and Ugin. That is enough justification for her to make them suffer how she had suffered. She perceives herself as the hero of her own story and that is pretty much all I want from a good villain.
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Yeah the destruction of Zendikar is Ugin, Sorin, Nahiri, Bolas, Chandra, Jace, Sarkhan, Nissa and Ob's fault.
The destruction of Innistrad was all Nahiri's.
Except that at the time that Sorin put Nahiri in the Helvault it wasn't destroyed, Nahiri showed up after she patched the first Eldrazi leak, Sorin's only crime before he stuffed her in the vault was being distracted making Avacyn and the fact that Avacyn's protective ward on the plane screwed up Ugin's signal beacon that something was wrong with the seal.
it’s ridiculous to pin it only on Nahiri. They’re both in the wrong by a ridiculous amount.
And one still manages to not only be more wrong, but also be massively hypocritical because Nahiri noped out and sealed herself in a coffin for decades instead of watching the Eldrazi, she couldn't even be bothered to go talk to Ugin or Sorin and say "hey I am going a bit stir crazy..can one of you two watch over this for a bit while I take a break.
And Sorin has, repeatedly, screwed up too.
and Sorin's biggest screw up was accidental in nature.
We have no idea what she was going to do with regards to Ugin just yet.
Probably try to Yell at him and proceed to get Ghostfired because Ugin isn't as nice as Sorin is, but Ugin was dead/hedron'd at the moment.
It was classic eye for an eye logic. You wreck my planet, I wreck your planet
Except that Sorin didn't, Sorin tried to stop it in Zendikar 1, Sarkhan, Nissa, Jace and Chandra boned that up, Nahiri didn't even try.
Sorin's biggest screw up wasn't accidental. He sealed Nahiri in the Helvault very much on purpose. And I don't really agree with Nahiri being "more" wrong, as well it feels like quibbling over pretty small degrees of "wrong" relatively speaking. They're both very bad.
Couldn't the exact same thing be said about Sorin? Seems like you're signaling her out for things that they're both guilty of, but giving Sorin a pass.
Except they aren't guilty of the same thing, not remotely. Sorin's antagonistic act was an accident. Nahiri did what she did on purpose, and of note. Neither of these two are really in a position to know what is going on as Nahiri likely doesn't even know who Bolas is, and Sorin was out of commission for the last few months.
You have two people who actively want to kill each other getting yanked to one spot, what do you think is going to happen?
I was referring specifically to "Nahiri is so annoying! Yes you're upset, but the multiverse doesn't revolve around you! Kill Bolas, then fight Sorin."
Sorin is doing the exact same thing - ignoring the multiversal threat solely to carry on his grudge against Nahiri. But RileyMcAwesome didn't say "Sorin and Nahiri are so annoying." they only said "Nahiri is so annoying." They're taking Nahiri to task for her part in their continued conflict, while not even acknowledging Sorin for his own.
Aaaand... like I said on the thread for the white card of them fighting, did we really have to bring them to Ravnica to continue all this crap? It was bad enough first time round.
Aaaand... like I said on the thread for the white card of them fighting, did we really have to bring them to Ravnica to continue all this crap? It was bad enough first time round.
As for every story there are two sides and both sides are at fault to some degree.
Nahiri accuses Sorin of being the cause of the downfall of Zendikar because he imprisoned her and during her imprisonment he did't care about stopping he Eldrazi that were freed on Zendikar, thus betraying her.
Sorin accuses Nahiri of deliberately trying to murder a his homeplane after throwing a fit about the defence on Innistrad shielding the plane from the interplanar phonecall.
Both sides are right in their own accusations and their murderous rivalry embodies the narrow-mindedness of some old walkers, completely absorbed by their self importance and damn everything else.
I would put both at fault here if it wasn't for the little detail that Sorin actually sought out Ugin to solve the Eldrazi problem on Zendikar: he didn't need to as for all he knew Innistrad was safe from the menace, but he did anyway. Granted that he did it after making sure that Innistrad was ok, but would you blame him for that? The eldrazi were freed and his homeplane lost his first line of defence against them.
On the other hand, when Nahiri was released from the Helvault she rushed back to Zendikar, stayed there for 2 seconds and thought: "eye for an eye, I'm going to commit genocide because I'm angry at one person".
Both of them are at fault, but on one side Sorin tried to make things right, Nahiri just tried to kill as many people as possible just to spite a single person.
So... Who is more at fault here?
EDIT: as a final note: why the hell put a lock on the eldrazi cell? Any lock can be picked (that's exactly what happened). If you want to keep something locked forever you don't put a lock on the celldoor, you weld it shut then pour concrete over it! Ugin is an a**hole!
As for every story there are two sides and both sides are at fault to some degree.
Nahiri accuses Sorin of being the cause of the downfall of Zendikar because he imprisoned her and during her imprisonment he did't care about stopping he Eldrazi that were freed on Zendikar, thus betraying her.
Sorin accuses Nahiri of deliberately trying to murder a his homeplane after throwing a fit about the defence on Innistrad shielding the plane from the interplanar phonecall.
Both sides are right in their own accusations and their murderous rivalry embodies the narrow-mindedness of some old walkers, completely absorbed by their self importance and damn everything else.
I would put both at fault here if it wasn't for the little detail that Sorin actually sought out Ugin to solve the Eldrazi problem on Zendikar: he didn't need to as for all he knew Innistrad was safe from the menace, but he did anyway. Granted that he did it after making sure that Innistrad was ok, but would you blame him for that? The eldrazi were freed and his homeplane lost his first line of defence against them.
On the other hand, when Nahiri was released from the Helvault she rushed back to Zendikar, stayed there for 2 seconds and thought: "eye for an eye, I'm going to commit genocide because I'm angry at one person".
Both of them are at fault, but on one side Sorin tried to make things right, Nahiri just tried to kill as many people as possible just to spite a single person.
So... Who is more at fault here?
EDIT: as a final note: why the hell put a lock on the eldrazi cell? Any lock can be picked (that's exactly what happened). If you want to keep something locked forever you don't put a lock on the celldoor, you weld it shut then pour concrete over it! Ugin is an a**hole!
I mean putting a lock that (theoretically) only you could open seems about right for Ugin, especially if he's concerned about the long term damage to the multiverse by locking the interplanar beings for too long.
Sorin's biggest screw up wasn't accidental. He sealed Nahiri in the Helvault very much on purpose. And I don't really agree with Nahiri being "more" wrong, as well it feels like quibbling over pretty small degrees of "wrong" relatively speaking. They're both very bad.
Sorin stuffing Nahiri in the vault wasn't remotely a crime. She attacked him, she swung first. Yes he was being a dismissive jerk, but Nahiri already admitted that she had handled the problem, and even after she assaulted him he gave her the chance to leave. Sorin is a jerk, a massive one. However he gave Nahiri every out to go back to Zendikar, and she made it clear that she wouldn't leave.
EDIT: as a final note: why the hell put a lock on the eldrazi cell? Any lock can be picked (that's exactly what happened). If you want to keep something locked forever you don't put a lock on the celldoor, you weld it shut then pour concrete over it! Ugin is an a**hole!
That is because Ugin is..the Mirror of Nicol Bolas. Nicol Bolas ultimately selfish and destructive but so long as you are of value to him he will probably treat you really well. Ugin is ultimately benevolent and helpful..in the very very long term so he really doesn't care about individuals, so he would put a lock on just in case he deems it "helpful" to unleash the Eldrazi. This is why he didn't reveal that the Eldrazi could actually be killed.
As mentioned the entire reason Ugin didn't want to kill them was to make sure that killing them wouldn't cause more longterm harm than good. It's the same reason he wouldn't want a permanent "can't be undone" lock on them.
Nahiri came out of the Helvault, went to Zendikar, and saw that it was ruined because to her the Eldrazi can't be beaten. That's why she tried to lure them away as well. It wasn't just vengeance. It was to save Zendikar. If Ugin hadn't lead them to believe that the only option was to seal them, something that required three Oldwalkers (aka much more powerful than she is now) to do then I'm sure fighting them directly would have been something she'd consider. She still probably would have lead them to Innistrad, but as I said it served two purposes.
And Sorin locked someone up forever (clearly he had zero intentions of ever getting her out, so it was clearly meant to be as long as possible) is not really a defensible act. It's not like his only options were "seal her away or die". Sorin seeking out Ugin also feels like interest in saving Innistrad as well, not for Zendikar.
That's why she tried to lure them away as well. It wasn't just vengeance. It was to save Zendikar.
Those are not mutually exclusive things, She could have lured them anywhere she chose Innistrad specifically to cause Sorin pain.
It's not like his only options were "seal her away or die".
Yes, yes they were. Sorin gave her several chances to leave and she kept trying to kill him, he was acting purely out of self defense and given that he was weak from making Avacyn and pulling the Helvault down, going into a protracted Planeswalker duel would have been a not great idea.
And Sorin locked someone up forever (clearly he had zero intentions of ever getting her out, so it was clearly meant to be as long as possible)
Yes Sorin locked someone who was actively trying to kill him up forever what a terrible crime, and intentions don't matter as Sorin might not have actually been able to let her out, especially post mending.
I... never said they were mutually exclusive. Saying "it wasn't just vengeance" clearly says that she's doing both. Are you saying that luring them to some random unrelated plane would have been better? Presuming that they'd be populated as well.
She wasn't trying to kill him. She wanted to drag him back to Zendikar.
And locking someone up forever when someone is trying to make you honor your promise to me is an overreaction. Don't make promises you can't keep, especially when you're making promises just to serve your own interests.
Aaaand... like I said on the thread for the white card of them fighting, did we really have to bring them to Ravnica to continue all this crap? It was bad enough first time round.
The two of them fighting at what seems like full power.. with each other. Sorin and Nahiri just add to the people wrecking Ravnica.
Ugin needs to step in and stop the fight. Or maybe Jace could talk to them?
This part of War of The Spark somehow makes me feel we are back in Innistrad again..
Oh and that Sorin Markov was in agonizing physical pain constantly until his escape from the rock as he couldn't planeswalk while in that state of pain. That said pain could be equated to physical torture. That while in said constant pain, he was forced to bear witness to suddenly a lovecraftian monster suddenly appearing on his plane known as Emrakul. That said Emrakul went about destroying and warping as much it could about the plane he acted as lord and protector for. That he likely went through mental anguish in addition to his physical pain as he was effectively helpless to stop her. Also, all or most his entire family being killed.
Was Sorin's family killed? I thought Nahiri just imprison them in stone.
To be fair they are not all truly his family ( in biological terms), but yes, she killed alot of the Markov family vampires and in the end killed some voldaren, stormkirk, etc not directly to be fair.
I like this little fight between them, they are not totally right neither wrong but that alot of the atual situation was because of nahiri don’t even trying to listen ... thats true.
To be fair I just can’t deslike nahiri, this personality trait is so relatable within most people that it is even funnier. Since eldrish moon/shadow I m team nahiri and will keep hoping she wins. Go nahiri go !
I... never said they were mutually exclusive. Saying "it wasn't just vengeance" clearly says that she's doing both. Are you saying that luring them to some random unrelated plane would have been better? Presuming that they'd be populated as well.
She wasn't trying to kill him. She wanted to drag him back to Zendikar.
And locking someone up forever when someone is trying to make you honor your promise to me is an overreaction. Don't make promises you can't keep, especially when you're making promises just to serve your own interests.
Actually, no. At this point she did not need his help ("She did not, in fact, need Sorin's help. Not anymore.") and kept fighting him to 'earn his respect'. She didn't plan to kill him either, but Sorin had no way to know that and, given that he was significantly weakened at the moment, the fight was dangerous for him..
So locking someone who is actively beating you is clearly self-defence, especially if the fact that it happens to be forever isn't something you can control.
(And even that he did only after Nahiri started to overpower Avacyn in battle, so it was also to protect Avacyn and Innistrad, not only himself.)
Though they all (including Ugin and actually most Oldwalkers) totally are absolute ********s, this I can't argue.
To be fair they are not all truly his family ( in biological terms), but yes, she killed alot of the Markov family vampires
Thanks for that info. I guess Sorin will get angry for that.
Anyway, I like the fight too... not complaining when Wotc adds more action to an already action filled set. But I do hope they make peace with each other soon, because their skills are better used against Bolas who is a threat to both Innistrad and Zendikar if he wins this war.
I... never said they were mutually exclusive. Saying "it wasn't just vengeance" clearly says that she's doing both. Are you saying that luring them to some random unrelated plane would have been better? Presuming that they'd be populated as well.
She wasn't trying to kill him. She wanted to drag him back to Zendikar.
And locking someone up forever when someone is trying to make you honor your promise to me is an overreaction. Don't make promises you can't keep, especially when you're making promises just to serve your own interests.
Actually, no. At this point she did not need his help ("She did not, in fact, need Sorin's help. Not anymore.") and kept fighting him to 'earn his respect'. She didn't plan to kill him either, but Sorin had no way to know that and, given that he was significantly weakened at the moment, the fight was dangerous for him..
So locking someone who is actively beating you is clearly self-defence, especially if the fact that it happens to be forever isn't something you can control.
(And even that he did only after Nahiri started to overpower Avacyn in battle, so it was also to protect Avacyn and Innistrad, not only himself.)
Though they all (including Ugin and actually most Oldwalkers) totally are absolute ********s, this I can't argue.
Not needing his help right then doesn't exempt him from the promise though. And dangerous isn't the same as fatal, especially for an Oldwalker. And you can very much control whether or not you choose to imprison someone in a magical artifact for eternity. If he hadn't acted incredibly rude and dismissive to a threat that he had said he'd help with and had neglected it wouldn't have gone that way.
Ok - here's my recollection of the story: If you read the first part of it again, it starts with Sorin basically coming out of something like a coma after the effort it took him to create Avacyn and the Helvault. While he's in this disoriented, out-of-it state, Nahiri turns up:
N: Where the hell were you?!
S: Oh. Hey. Hi Nahiri. Do you like my helvault? It's not as good as you could make, but not bad eh?
N: The Eldrazi just wrecked Zendikar? Didn't you get my distress call?
S: Er. No. I didn't.
N: Why the hell not?!
S: Ah. *****. My defences of Innistrad might have blocked it. Hadn't thought of that. Sorry.
N: WTF man! You were supposed to help me!
S: Um. Yeah. Do you need me to come back to Zendikar with you?
N: No! It's fine now. I sorted it.
S: Right. Ok. So...
N: I'm still immensely pissed at you though.
S: Ok...
Avacyn turns up.
A: Threat detected. Attack mode.
N: WTF. (starts beating on Avacyn, and winning)
S: (Still coming out of the effing coma for crying out loud.) Ah. Bugger. Um. Stop? Avacyn's part of the defences I made and...
N: AAAAAARRRRGGGGHH! (Keeps killing Avacyn)
Sorin steps in. Tries to get her to stop. Nahiri attacks him too, just to what? Prove herself to him? Sorin ends up sealing her in the helvault to protect himself, Avacyn and the whole of Innistrad. I don't get the impression it was a long, thought out, considered strategy. More '*****. How do I stop her. Look - Helvault!' FWOP. Sealed Nahiri.
After that he couldn't really get her out again without destroying the helvault, which was the other half of his defence mechanism for Innistrad that he'd just spent most of his energy creating, so that wasn't really an option. And if you look at his response to Ugin when he finally gets to chat to the resurrected dragon, you can tell he's ashamed of what happened.
All of which makes me more on Sorin's side than Nahiri's.
BUT, and this is my real gripe with it all, the whole damned storyline of their fight and Nahiri ending up in the vault was just so James Wyatt could have Emrakul come to Innistrad and feck it up. It was totally contrived to facilitate a storyline that I hated, because they butchered Innistrad, Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna etc. in the process, and they had to make both Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for it to happen. I hate everything about that creative decision. That's why I'm pissed that they're carrying it on here. They character-assassinated two walkers that I really liked, just to ruin the plane I most liked. I genuinely stopped following the Magic storyline after that for a couple of years until Ixalan.
And now we get an in-your-face reminder that they chose to make Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for no good reason.
Post-script: All the character attributes that made Sorin a cool, detached character have now been given to Davriel. I hope he doesn't get fecked over by creative the same way. Leave him safely in Brandon Sanderson's hands please.
BUT, and this is my real gripe with it all, the whole damned storyline of their fight and Nahiri ending up in the vault was just so James Wyatt could have Emrakul come to Innistrad and feck it up. It was totally contrived to facilitate a storyline that I hated, because they ruined Innistrad in the process, and they had to make both Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for it to happen. I hate everything about that creative decision. That's why I'm pissed that they're carrying it on here. They character-assassinated two walkers that I really liked, just to ruin the plane I most liked. I genuinely stopped following the Magic storyline after that for a couple of years until Ixalan.
Couldn't agree more on this. All that happened in return to Innistrad was there just because they fell short of a set when they decided to cut one from every block and wouldn't cram Emrakul with Kozilek in Oath of the Gatewatch.
Emrakul was planned to invade Innistrad since the first Innistrad block ended. It was a draft they had for the return even before BtZo rt he gatewatch to play on theme since Lovecraft was a gothic horror writer before he shifted it into comic horror. Hence why Bloodborne also mixed the too.
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While I'm on the Team Sorin side of things I hope that this is the end of this arc. I hope that Ugin smacks both of them upside the head tells Nahiri that the Eldrazi problem on Zendikar has been resolved they all decide to work together to fight Bolas and Nahiri and Sorin go and try to repair their planes and promise to never see each other ever again. I just don't believe that this vengeance arc is very compelling nor do I believe that Nahiri makes for a very compelling villain. Let's say she gets revenge on Sorin and Ugin, what after that is her motivation to still be a villain? I'd rather see both Sorin and Nahiri try to attain redemption in their own separate (very separate) storylines.
And as a note (and I am not really sure cuz not a Vorthos) but it seems like the Helvault's magic is very intricate as Liliana had to weave a spell in which Thalia had to choose for it to open instead of Lilly just breaking it herself. I don't think it was possible for Sorin to just take her out.
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It's ok liking Nahiri as a villain, it's not the same to claim she wasn't wrong, evil or way past any relatable measure of retaliation.
I mean Nahiri, Sorin and Ugin had a deal. Nahiri thinks that there was a breach of contract and therefore the blame for the destruction of Zendikar falls in her mind with Sorin and Ugin. That is enough justification for her to make them suffer how she had suffered. She perceives herself as the hero of her own story and that is pretty much all I want from a good villain.
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Except that at the time that Sorin put Nahiri in the Helvault it wasn't destroyed, Nahiri showed up after she patched the first Eldrazi leak, Sorin's only crime before he stuffed her in the vault was being distracted making Avacyn and the fact that Avacyn's protective ward on the plane screwed up Ugin's signal beacon that something was wrong with the seal.
And one still manages to not only be more wrong, but also be massively hypocritical because Nahiri noped out and sealed herself in a coffin for decades instead of watching the Eldrazi, she couldn't even be bothered to go talk to Ugin or Sorin and say "hey I am going a bit stir crazy..can one of you two watch over this for a bit while I take a break.
and Sorin's biggest screw up was accidental in nature.
Probably try to Yell at him and proceed to get Ghostfired because Ugin isn't as nice as Sorin is, but Ugin was dead/hedron'd at the moment.
Except that Sorin didn't, Sorin tried to stop it in Zendikar 1, Sarkhan, Nissa, Jace and Chandra boned that up, Nahiri didn't even try.
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I was referring specifically to "Nahiri is so annoying! Yes you're upset, but the multiverse doesn't revolve around you! Kill Bolas, then fight Sorin."
Sorin is doing the exact same thing - ignoring the multiversal threat solely to carry on his grudge against Nahiri. But RileyMcAwesome didn't say "Sorin and Nahiri are so annoying." they only said "Nahiri is so annoying." They're taking Nahiri to task for her part in their continued conflict, while not even acknowledging Sorin for his own.
Nahiri accuses Sorin of being the cause of the downfall of Zendikar because he imprisoned her and during her imprisonment he did't care about stopping he Eldrazi that were freed on Zendikar, thus betraying her.
Sorin accuses Nahiri of deliberately trying to murder a his homeplane after throwing a fit about the defence on Innistrad shielding the plane from the interplanar phonecall.
Both sides are right in their own accusations and their murderous rivalry embodies the narrow-mindedness of some old walkers, completely absorbed by their self importance and damn everything else.
I would put both at fault here if it wasn't for the little detail that Sorin actually sought out Ugin to solve the Eldrazi problem on Zendikar: he didn't need to as for all he knew Innistrad was safe from the menace, but he did anyway. Granted that he did it after making sure that Innistrad was ok, but would you blame him for that? The eldrazi were freed and his homeplane lost his first line of defence against them.
On the other hand, when Nahiri was released from the Helvault she rushed back to Zendikar, stayed there for 2 seconds and thought: "eye for an eye, I'm going to commit genocide because I'm angry at one person".
Both of them are at fault, but on one side Sorin tried to make things right, Nahiri just tried to kill as many people as possible just to spite a single person.
So... Who is more at fault here?
EDIT: as a final note: why the hell put a lock on the eldrazi cell? Any lock can be picked (that's exactly what happened). If you want to keep something locked forever you don't put a lock on the celldoor, you weld it shut then pour concrete over it! Ugin is an a**hole!
I mean putting a lock that (theoretically) only you could open seems about right for Ugin, especially if he's concerned about the long term damage to the multiverse by locking the interplanar beings for too long.
Sorin stuffing Nahiri in the vault wasn't remotely a crime. She attacked him, she swung first. Yes he was being a dismissive jerk, but Nahiri already admitted that she had handled the problem, and even after she assaulted him he gave her the chance to leave. Sorin is a jerk, a massive one. However he gave Nahiri every out to go back to Zendikar, and she made it clear that she wouldn't leave.
That is because Ugin is..the Mirror of Nicol Bolas. Nicol Bolas ultimately selfish and destructive but so long as you are of value to him he will probably treat you really well. Ugin is ultimately benevolent and helpful..in the very very long term so he really doesn't care about individuals, so he would put a lock on just in case he deems it "helpful" to unleash the Eldrazi. This is why he didn't reveal that the Eldrazi could actually be killed.
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Nahiri came out of the Helvault, went to Zendikar, and saw that it was ruined because to her the Eldrazi can't be beaten. That's why she tried to lure them away as well. It wasn't just vengeance. It was to save Zendikar. If Ugin hadn't lead them to believe that the only option was to seal them, something that required three Oldwalkers (aka much more powerful than she is now) to do then I'm sure fighting them directly would have been something she'd consider. She still probably would have lead them to Innistrad, but as I said it served two purposes.
And Sorin locked someone up forever (clearly he had zero intentions of ever getting her out, so it was clearly meant to be as long as possible) is not really a defensible act. It's not like his only options were "seal her away or die". Sorin seeking out Ugin also feels like interest in saving Innistrad as well, not for Zendikar.
Those are not mutually exclusive things, She could have lured them anywhere she chose Innistrad specifically to cause Sorin pain.
Yes, yes they were. Sorin gave her several chances to leave and she kept trying to kill him, he was acting purely out of self defense and given that he was weak from making Avacyn and pulling the Helvault down, going into a protracted Planeswalker duel would have been a not great idea.
Yes Sorin locked someone who was actively trying to kill him up forever what a terrible crime, and intentions don't matter as Sorin might not have actually been able to let her out, especially post mending.
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She wasn't trying to kill him. She wanted to drag him back to Zendikar.
And locking someone up forever when someone is trying to make you honor your promise to me is an overreaction. Don't make promises you can't keep, especially when you're making promises just to serve your own interests.
The two of them fighting at what seems like full power.. with each other. Sorin and Nahiri just add to the people wrecking Ravnica.
Ugin needs to step in and stop the fight. Or maybe Jace could talk to them?
This part of War of The Spark somehow makes me feel we are back in Innistrad again..
Was Sorin's family killed? I thought Nahiri just imprison them in stone.
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I like this little fight between them, they are not totally right neither wrong but that alot of the atual situation was because of nahiri don’t even trying to listen ... thats true.
To be fair I just can’t deslike nahiri, this personality trait is so relatable within most people that it is even funnier. Since eldrish moon/shadow I m team nahiri and will keep hoping she wins. Go nahiri go !
Actually, no. At this point she did not need his help ("She did not, in fact, need Sorin's help. Not anymore.") and kept fighting him to 'earn his respect'. She didn't plan to kill him either, but Sorin had no way to know that and, given that he was significantly weakened at the moment, the fight was dangerous for him..
So locking someone who is actively beating you is clearly self-defence, especially if the fact that it happens to be forever isn't something you can control.
(And even that he did only after Nahiri started to overpower Avacyn in battle, so it was also to protect Avacyn and Innistrad, not only himself.)
Though they all (including Ugin and actually most Oldwalkers) totally are absolute ********s, this I can't argue.
Thanks for that info. I guess Sorin will get angry for that.
Anyway, I like the fight too... not complaining when Wotc adds more action to an already action filled set. But I do hope they make peace with each other soon, because their skills are better used against Bolas who is a threat to both Innistrad and Zendikar if he wins this war.
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Not needing his help right then doesn't exempt him from the promise though. And dangerous isn't the same as fatal, especially for an Oldwalker. And you can very much control whether or not you choose to imprison someone in a magical artifact for eternity. If he hadn't acted incredibly rude and dismissive to a threat that he had said he'd help with and had neglected it wouldn't have gone that way.
N: Where the hell were you?!
S: Oh. Hey. Hi Nahiri. Do you like my helvault? It's not as good as you could make, but not bad eh?
N: The Eldrazi just wrecked Zendikar? Didn't you get my distress call?
S: Er. No. I didn't.
N: Why the hell not?!
S: Ah. *****. My defences of Innistrad might have blocked it. Hadn't thought of that. Sorry.
N: WTF man! You were supposed to help me!
S: Um. Yeah. Do you need me to come back to Zendikar with you?
N: No! It's fine now. I sorted it.
S: Right. Ok. So...
N: I'm still immensely pissed at you though.
S: Ok...
Avacyn turns up.
A: Threat detected. Attack mode.
N: WTF. (starts beating on Avacyn, and winning)
S: (Still coming out of the effing coma for crying out loud.) Ah. Bugger. Um. Stop? Avacyn's part of the defences I made and...
N: AAAAAARRRRGGGGHH! (Keeps killing Avacyn)
Sorin steps in. Tries to get her to stop. Nahiri attacks him too, just to what? Prove herself to him? Sorin ends up sealing her in the helvault to protect himself, Avacyn and the whole of Innistrad. I don't get the impression it was a long, thought out, considered strategy. More '*****. How do I stop her. Look - Helvault!' FWOP. Sealed Nahiri.
After that he couldn't really get her out again without destroying the helvault, which was the other half of his defence mechanism for Innistrad that he'd just spent most of his energy creating, so that wasn't really an option. And if you look at his response to Ugin when he finally gets to chat to the resurrected dragon, you can tell he's ashamed of what happened.
All of which makes me more on Sorin's side than Nahiri's.
BUT, and this is my real gripe with it all, the whole damned storyline of their fight and Nahiri ending up in the vault was just so James Wyatt could have Emrakul come to Innistrad and feck it up. It was totally contrived to facilitate a storyline that I hated, because they butchered Innistrad, Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna etc. in the process, and they had to make both Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for it to happen. I hate everything about that creative decision. That's why I'm pissed that they're carrying it on here. They character-assassinated two walkers that I really liked, just to ruin the plane I most liked. I genuinely stopped following the Magic storyline after that for a couple of years until Ixalan.
And now we get an in-your-face reminder that they chose to make Sorin and Nahiri into ********s for no good reason.
Post-script: All the character attributes that made Sorin a cool, detached character have now been given to Davriel. I hope he doesn't get fecked over by creative the same way. Leave him safely in Brandon Sanderson's hands please.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
And as a note (and I am not really sure cuz not a Vorthos) but it seems like the Helvault's magic is very intricate as Liliana had to weave a spell in which Thalia had to choose for it to open instead of Lilly just breaking it herself. I don't think it was possible for Sorin to just take her out.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone