I think the Play Design team knows what they're doing. I think this set could birth a few new archetypes and bolster some niche/lower-tier strategies. The reprint that keeps springing to my mind is Astral Slide. It probably has enough support in the existing Modern card pool, and doesn't seem oppressive.
This is the kind of stuff I expect to see, not some endless stream of bombs.
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I think the Play Design team knows what they're doing. I think this set could birth a few new archetypes and bolster some niche/lower-tier strategies. The reprint that keeps springing to my mind is Astral Slide. It probably has enough support in the existing Modern card pool, and doesn't seem oppressive.
This is the kind of stuff I expect to see, not some endless stream of bombs.
The off the rails part is thinking they are NOT going to put power in the set. They aren't releasing another Commander 2018 as they realized from doing the last one they must have reprints that people desire in the set. TNN is not the boogy-man in modern that people would make it out to be if it were released, and neither would Cabal Coffers, Baleful Strix, or even Mother of Runes at this point. The power point system they developed back after Mirrodin only applies to standard legal sets and has nothing on these summer sets.
The main issue modern has and always will have is the cost of the mana to play competitively. Because of the "no reprints in sight", sellers will take advantage of the boost in popularity and upcharge on fetches: It is what it is. A lot of games would print the fetchlands into oblivion to make sure they aren't the crux of the format, but even if they did that, singles sellers would shove the cost onto other cards that see ubiquitous play like the components of whatever meta deck is rolling about.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They have confirmed that with the exception of basic lands all cards in Modern Horizons will be new to modern.
MH1 has no reprints. Will MH2?
Did they take all reprints off the table for this product entirely? I know we don't know if they'll be doing an MH2, but it seems really short sighted for this to either just be a one time dump or to take reprints off the table entirely.
They have confirmed that with the exception of basic lands all cards in Modern Horizons will be new to modern.
MH1 has no reprints. Will MH2?
Did they take all reprints off the table for this product entirely? I know we don't know if they'll be doing an MH2, but it seems really short sighted for this to either just be a one time dump or to take reprints off the table entirely.
No there’s 5 reprints waiting in this set
And maro said they are gonna see how this does before they make modern legal sets a new ritual if we love it/buy it enough MH2 will happen maybe with more reprints
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Mana Drain has been banned in Legacy for a long time and doesn't really see play in Vintage because fast mana is so prevalent. I'm actually of the opinion that Mana Drain would be less busted in Modern than Force or Daze. The latter two would make both UR Phoenix and Storm much better, which is the opposite of what this format needs. There are only four currently extant decks that I can think of that would possibly use Mana Drain.
U Tron: Doesn't really need more fast mana and I'm not sure the deck wants to give up either Remand or Condescend.
UW Control: Would really, really benefit from Mana Drain and Counterspell (which I regard as an auto-include in the set). Tapping out on Turn 3 for Jace or getting a free Teferi is a very powerful play.
Whir Prison and Lantern Control: Mana Drain allows the lock to happen much faster.
Would Mana Drain be oppressive? Yes, it'd jackboot thug the fast creature decks (Dredge, Hollow One, Vengevine, and Phoenix) straight to the gulag, which is what Modern desperately needs. The non-U versions of Tron probably also go to Siberia, which I have no real opinion on. The more midrange, toolbox creature decks like Humans and Spirits already have the tools to deal with a control heavy meta.
They have confirmed that with the exception of basic lands all cards in Modern Horizons will be new to modern.
MH1 has no reprints. Will MH2?
Did they take all reprints off the table for this product entirely? I know we don't know if they'll be doing an MH2, but it seems really short sighted for this to either just be a one time dump or to take reprints off the table entirely.
My guess is Core 2020 will continue to have a few key Modern reprints, not LotV of course, like how Core 2019 had Crucible of Worlds and Scapeshift. The Fetch cycles are the biggest problem in my mind since they are ubiquitous foundation to any multicolor deck. How and when they do is the biggest question mark?
My guess is Core 2020 will continue to have a few key Modern reprints, not LotV of course, like how Core 2019 had Crucible of Worlds and Scapeshift. The Fetch cycles are the biggest problem in my mind since they are ubiquitous foundation to any multicolor deck. How and when they do is the biggest question mark?
This is what puzzles me about MH, during the announcement they talked about boosting tribal strategies like Goblins with stuff like Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader, or Elves. However, how is WOTC planning to address the elephant in the room, ie, the manabases, Modern is pretty much a fetchland+shockland format, Tron notwithstanding. What is a Goblin deck going to do against those manabases? Right now Modern has access to some obscene Goblin openings like T1Skirk Prospector, T2 sac Prospector, Goblin Warchief, T3 Goblin Piledriver and maybe Goblin Chieftain to help out, or even a Krenko, Mob Boss yet the deck is nowhere to be seen.
Acquiring the fetchlands is still a significant entry barrier for the format, and nothing short of maaybePrice of Progress is going to make a monocolored tribal deck viable in the face of decks with such manabases, which won't be getting any reprints, and will also gain a boost from some of the new cards.
Time will tell, but I really can't see any reason for NOT reprinting the damn fetchlands in this set.
Mana Drain has been banned in Legacy for a long time and doesn't really see play in Vintage because fast mana is so prevalent. I'm actually of the opinion that Mana Drain would be less busted in Modern than Force or Daze. The latter two would make both UR Phoenix and Storm much better, which is the opposite of what this format needs. There are only four currently extant decks that I can think of that would possibly use Mana Drain.
U Tron: Doesn't really need more fast mana and I'm not sure the deck wants to give up either Remand or Condescend.
UW Control: Would really, really benefit from Mana Drain and Counterspell (which I regard as an auto-include in the set). Tapping out on Turn 3 for Jace or getting a free Teferi is a very powerful play.
Whir Prison and Lantern Control: Mana Drain allows the lock to happen much faster.
Would Mana Drain be oppressive? Yes, it'd jackboot thug the fast creature decks (Dredge, Hollow One, Vengevine, and Phoenix) straight to the gulag, which is what Modern desperately needs. The non-U versions of Tron probably also go to Siberia, which I have no real opinion on. The more midrange, toolbox creature decks like Humans and Spirits already have the tools to deal with a control heavy meta.
Mana Drain is likely the single most broken instant ever to see print. No, Force of will is not close. The card was a mistake and should have never seen print. Also an utter failure to the colour pie.
Just the promise of this set (and its lack of Modern reprints) is triggering the Secondary Market already. Check out the price on Scalding Tarn. Just when I hope a set will make a format cheaper stuff like this happens. Oh well, c'est la vie. Looks like I will be playing a lot more Pauper. Hope there are some decent commons coming out.
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Oh that would indeed be cool, I mean it is clear that there will be not fetch land reprints, but they could really introduce more budget fetches in general.
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Mana Drain has been banned in Legacy for a long time and doesn't really see play in Vintage because fast mana is so prevalent. I'm actually of the opinion that Mana Drain would be less busted in Modern than Force or Daze. The latter two would make both UR Phoenix and Storm much better, which is the opposite of what this format needs. There are only four currently extant decks that I can think of that would possibly use Mana Drain.
U Tron: Doesn't really need more fast mana and I'm not sure the deck wants to give up either Remand or Condescend.
UW Control: Would really, really benefit from Mana Drain and Counterspell (which I regard as an auto-include in the set). Tapping out on Turn 3 for Jace or getting a free Teferi is a very powerful play.
Whir Prison and Lantern Control: Mana Drain allows the lock to happen much faster.
Would Mana Drain be oppressive? Yes, it'd jackboot thug the fast creature decks (Dredge, Hollow One, Vengevine, and Phoenix) straight to the gulag, which is what Modern desperately needs. The non-U versions of Tron probably also go to Siberia, which I have no real opinion on. The more midrange, toolbox creature decks like Humans and Spirits already have the tools to deal with a control heavy meta.
Mana Drain is likely the single most broken instant ever to see print. No, Force of will is not close. The card was a mistake and should have never seen print. Also an utter failure to the colour pie.
I think part of the thinking at design time was that mana burn might keep it in check - it was better than a counterspell if you could use the mana but could be worse in topdeck mode (I counter your elder dragon with the last card in my hand. My turn, I draw, it’s a land, now what can I do with this mana? Take 8 life loss) .
Of course the later elimination of mana burn made it a strictly-better and not just the usually-better it had been.
Oh that would indeed be cool, I mean it is clear that there will be not fetch land reprints, but they could really introduce more budget fetches in general.
Yeah, at this point I'll take any Uncommon cycle to help mana fix multicolor budget Modern whether a Mirage fetch or wedge color from Planeshift. There is always a possibility they create a new land cycle.
Mana Drain is likely the single most broken instant ever to see print. No, Force of will is not close. The card was a mistake and should have never seen print. Also an utter failure to the colour pie.
You have no clue what you're talking about, honestly. The color pie didn't exist during the printing of Alliances as it does today, it was perfectly in color (blue got everything, remember). Also, with mana burn, generating a bunch of extra mana that control decks likely couldn't spend was a serious drawback. Doing away with mana burn made it more powerful, but without the full blue toolbox that eternal formats enjoy, there's a real cap on just how powerful it can be in Modern.
You can't evaluate cards in a vacuum, you have to evaluate them based on how they'd slot into existing decks and what they'd enable. Force and Daze would be quickly banned, just like everything else that makes Storm too strong. Plus, they'd allow UR Phoenix to go all in while still having protection; the strongest deck in Modern does not need to get better.
They have confirmed that with the exception of basic lands all cards in Modern Horizons will be new to modern.
MH1 has no reprints. Will MH2?
Did they take all reprints off the table for this product entirely? I know we don't know if they'll be doing an MH2, but it seems really short sighted for this to either just be a one time dump or to take reprints off the table entirely.
A lot of people don't seem to be getting this, so let's make with the bullet points:
There will be reprints.
All of said reprints are not currently Modern legal, but their being printing in Modern Horizons brings them into the format.
Said reprints will come from pre-8th edition sets, as well as supplemental sets like Conspiracy, Battlebond, etc.
All of the new cards will be Modern legal, bypassing Standard entirely.
I also echo the sentiment that fetches need to be reprinted soon, and in meaningful numbers. MM3's printing of the ZEN fetches was simply not enough.
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I mean there are legacy decks with ancestors in modern (even if weakened) like Pox, Slivers, etc. If they could provide cards to help those decks like Crystalline Sliver, Hibernation Sliver, Muscle Sliver, and perhaps Hunter Sliver, I would be a happy camper.
Obviously this set is designed in some way to shake up the meta of modern, I hope though that swarmy strategies don't go away in to the night.
I’d personally welcome 16 brand new Slivers with open arms. That’s what would get me to buy lots and lots of singles from MH.
I think cards like Magma Sliver and Toxin Sliver would Slivers more pop too.
I know it’s a long shot, but a place like MH would be a perfect place to give us one final old-school Sliver release.
But I am curious what they had in store for us when Slivers were one of the last cuts in Dominaria, and if they would drop them here.
What’s more likely on the slivers front - actually reprint the pre modern slivers with their affects-all-slivers templating, or make quasi-functional reprints that cover much the same ground but with new card names and have the new style ‘affects-all-slivers-you-control’ templating?
Quasi-functionally new renamed Slivers are by far what’s more likely to happen. The affects-all-Slivers-in-play-template have a storm scale of 10 according to MaRo.
Quasi-functionally new renamed Slivers are by far what’s more likely to happen. The affects-all-Slivers-in-play-template have a storm scale of 10 according to MaRo.
Oh I’m aware of that
I know the new ones would be done the same way as core 2015 did it
Quasi-functionally new renamed Slivers are by far what’s more likely to happen. The affects-all-Slivers-in-play-template have a storm scale of 10 according to MaRo.
Alongside all of the old-fashioned lord wordings. I don't know why so many folks wanted slivers to keep their outdated text years after symmetrical lords were dead and buried.
There are quite a number of Sliver fans who enjoyed the tactics involved in the Sliver mirror match that came with symmetric Slivers. And the template is more crisp.
But overall I have to agree that asymmetric slivers are easier to play with.
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I think the Play Design team knows what they're doing. I think this set could birth a few new archetypes and bolster some niche/lower-tier strategies. The reprint that keeps springing to my mind is Astral Slide. It probably has enough support in the existing Modern card pool, and doesn't seem oppressive.
This is the kind of stuff I expect to see, not some endless stream of bombs.
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The off the rails part is thinking they are NOT going to put power in the set. They aren't releasing another Commander 2018 as they realized from doing the last one they must have reprints that people desire in the set. TNN is not the boogy-man in modern that people would make it out to be if it were released, and neither would Cabal Coffers, Baleful Strix, or even Mother of Runes at this point. The power point system they developed back after Mirrodin only applies to standard legal sets and has nothing on these summer sets.
The main issue modern has and always will have is the cost of the mana to play competitively. Because of the "no reprints in sight", sellers will take advantage of the boost in popularity and upcharge on fetches: It is what it is. A lot of games would print the fetchlands into oblivion to make sure they aren't the crux of the format, but even if they did that, singles sellers would shove the cost onto other cards that see ubiquitous play like the components of whatever meta deck is rolling about.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Did they take all reprints off the table for this product entirely? I know we don't know if they'll be doing an MH2, but it seems really short sighted for this to either just be a one time dump or to take reprints off the table entirely.
"Reveal a Dragon"
No there’s 5 reprints waiting in this set
And maro said they are gonna see how this does before they make modern legal sets a new ritual if we love it/buy it enough MH2 will happen maybe with more reprints
You think WotC will ever complete any incomplete land cycle? Because when they do it takes them forever.
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Mana Drain has been banned in Legacy for a long time and doesn't really see play in Vintage because fast mana is so prevalent. I'm actually of the opinion that Mana Drain would be less busted in Modern than Force or Daze. The latter two would make both UR Phoenix and Storm much better, which is the opposite of what this format needs. There are only four currently extant decks that I can think of that would possibly use Mana Drain.
U Tron: Doesn't really need more fast mana and I'm not sure the deck wants to give up either Remand or Condescend.
UW Control: Would really, really benefit from Mana Drain and Counterspell (which I regard as an auto-include in the set). Tapping out on Turn 3 for Jace or getting a free Teferi is a very powerful play.
Whir Prison and Lantern Control: Mana Drain allows the lock to happen much faster.
Would Mana Drain be oppressive? Yes, it'd jackboot thug the fast creature decks (Dredge, Hollow One, Vengevine, and Phoenix) straight to the gulag, which is what Modern desperately needs. The non-U versions of Tron probably also go to Siberia, which I have no real opinion on. The more midrange, toolbox creature decks like Humans and Spirits already have the tools to deal with a control heavy meta.
My guess is Core 2020 will continue to have a few key Modern reprints, not LotV of course, like how Core 2019 had Crucible of Worlds and Scapeshift. The Fetch cycles are the biggest problem in my mind since they are ubiquitous foundation to any multicolor deck. How and when they do is the biggest question mark?
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This is what puzzles me about MH, during the announcement they talked about boosting tribal strategies like Goblins with stuff like Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader, or Elves. However, how is WOTC planning to address the elephant in the room, ie, the manabases, Modern is pretty much a fetchland+shockland format, Tron notwithstanding. What is a Goblin deck going to do against those manabases? Right now Modern has access to some obscene Goblin openings like T1Skirk Prospector, T2 sac Prospector, Goblin Warchief, T3 Goblin Piledriver and maybe Goblin Chieftain to help out, or even a Krenko, Mob Boss yet the deck is nowhere to be seen.
Acquiring the fetchlands is still a significant entry barrier for the format, and nothing short of maaybePrice of Progress is going to make a monocolored tribal deck viable in the face of decks with such manabases, which won't be getting any reprints, and will also gain a boost from some of the new cards.
Time will tell, but I really can't see any reason for NOT reprinting the damn fetchlands in this set.
Mana Drain is likely the single most broken instant ever to see print. No, Force of will is not close. The card was a mistake and should have never seen print. Also an utter failure to the colour pie.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Your hoping for lair lands same boat in a way
And yes I do and hope they finish it they finished the quick land cycle in Kaladash
I think part of the thinking at design time was that mana burn might keep it in check - it was better than a counterspell if you could use the mana but could be worse in topdeck mode (I counter your elder dragon with the last card in my hand. My turn, I draw, it’s a land, now what can I do with this mana? Take 8 life loss) .
Of course the later elimination of mana burn made it a strictly-better and not just the usually-better it had been.
Yeah, at this point I'll take any Uncommon cycle to help mana fix multicolor budget Modern whether a Mirage fetch or wedge color from Planeshift. There is always a possibility they create a new land cycle.
You have no clue what you're talking about, honestly. The color pie didn't exist during the printing of Alliances as it does today, it was perfectly in color (blue got everything, remember). Also, with mana burn, generating a bunch of extra mana that control decks likely couldn't spend was a serious drawback. Doing away with mana burn made it more powerful, but without the full blue toolbox that eternal formats enjoy, there's a real cap on just how powerful it can be in Modern.
You can't evaluate cards in a vacuum, you have to evaluate them based on how they'd slot into existing decks and what they'd enable. Force and Daze would be quickly banned, just like everything else that makes Storm too strong. Plus, they'd allow UR Phoenix to go all in while still having protection; the strongest deck in Modern does not need to get better.
A lot of people don't seem to be getting this, so let's make with the bullet points:
I also echo the sentiment that fetches need to be reprinted soon, and in meaningful numbers. MM3's printing of the ZEN fetches was simply not enough.
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I’d personally welcome 16 brand new Slivers with open arms. That’s what would get me to buy lots and lots of singles from MH.
I think cards like Magma Sliver and Toxin Sliver would Slivers more pop too.
I know it’s a long shot, but a place like MH would be a perfect place to give us one final old-school Sliver release.
But I am curious what they had in store for us when Slivers were one of the last cuts in Dominaria, and if they would drop them here.
Oh I’m aware of that
I know the new ones would be done the same way as core 2015 did it
Alongside all of the old-fashioned lord wordings. I don't know why so many folks wanted slivers to keep their outdated text years after symmetrical lords were dead and buried.
But overall I have to agree that asymmetric slivers are easier to play with.
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