What you want is those that have invested both time and money to sacrifice all of that so that you can enjoy this game the same way they do. Now, talk about unfair.
I'd be willing to bet that I have a lot more money "invested" in this game than 90% of the playership out there. If it would crash to 90% of current values tomorrow I'd be in for as big as loss as most, if not more. The thing is I don't really care if it did. I've gone into it with that mindset. Its not an investment or fallback for me its a hobby (and a competitive one at times). And its a hobby I'd like to see become less expensive.
Don't use sacrifice around a hobby as well. It cheapens the word to those in this world who have truly sacrificed for their fellow man. I know quite a few people who have truly sacrificed for others and I am so grateful they have.
Oh FFS, get the hell outta here with that nonsense lol. Talk about smug.
And as far as investment, so your saying you’ve spent a lot of money. Triggered!!!! You aren’t allowed to talk financials here.
As for your “question”, the hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be. If you want to compete at a high level, be prepared to open your wallet. I don’t see how there is any correlation there. Beyond that, you’re posing this question in a thread about a set containing primarily eternal staples. Nobody is priced out of playing magic, they may be priced out of a particular format, but they certainly can still enjoy the game. This is, frankly, a stupid question.
And noone has still answered my question. Do you want to see the hobby become more or less expensive. The silence speaks volumes and reeks of elitism.
I'll answer it - less expensive. But what does that lip service actually accomplish?
The actual drivers that are putting in effort to make the game "more expensive" are actually a minority in numbers, but the real problem is that there's no one, not even WotC in the actual opposite direction to counteract that effort. Most, if not the rest of us here, including you and me and just "silent followers" of the market which is already tilted in one direction due to the imbalance I just mentioned.
Do not pretend that you are not like every one of us, functionally silent as well, choosing to follow the market in practice instead of leading it to cheaper prices at a active effort of personal loss. The actual amount we have spent/"invested" in the game is not the actual factor, it's what we do with our collection relatively to the amount spent with regards to the active market is what really matters, and in that line, we're on the same boat, just following the tides.
So what if you (or I, or anyone else, really) choose to voice out the opinion from your inner desire instead of your functional behavior in the game and its market? It does not equate that our choice of vocal silence to match our functional one doesn't mean we lack the same inner desire, it's just that after all these years we're convinced that voicing said inner desire doesn't change anything at all (via WotC or the Secondary Market) and is honestly, pretty pointless at this point of time, WotC is certainly not that dumb to have not noticed that inner desire by now, even if they chose not to acknowledge and cater to it.
Except you continue to harp on the set for “not being worth it”, or that you’d buy at normal booster prices. That would lead one to assume you cannot afford to buy. You have nobody to blame but yourself in that regard.
Is that what that meant? Well dang, I had no idea until you told me what my own words meant. It's good thing you were hear to clear up my own words for me. I couldn't have done it without you.
You think having a hobbby means you should have access to everything that hobby has to offer.
Not once did I say that. Try again.
You want to compete
Is that what I want? Man, this site is so helpful telling me what my own words mean, what I want, and can/cannot have or do. I've never seen a site that's been this helpful. Without any of you apparently I would have zero idea on how to get through life.
Since you and everyone else is so helpful, would you all like to tell me when I'm hungry, tired, happy, and when I have enough money 'cause it seems like you all know far more than me about every single thing about me.
And noone has still answered my question. Do you want to see the hobby become more or less expensive. The silence speaks volumes and reeks of elitism.
I do want mtg to be cheaper.. but do not reprint everything to the dirt until almost everything is worthless like Chronicles. I'm willing to pay for a 20-30$ Hierarch, but not for a 70-80$ hierarch.
And noone has still answered my question. Do you want to see the hobby become more or less expensive. The silence speaks volumes and reeks of elitism.
Hmm i have no opinion on this really, i guess i don't care either way? If pressed to make a decision, i guess cheaper eurekas would make me happy. So ya cheaper cards but other than that no, i dun care. Sold some pieces of power, still got most of em and most vintage decks are buildable. But i am alright with chronicles level printing hell i think it would likely happen without chronicles printing (price collapse). Magic is really running on a demographic surge, if it cannotjustify itself as a game, price notwithstanding, it will collapse. But there will always be a core group still playing or collecting (yes i am still harping on legacy, i am quite fascinated by its resilience). But as it is there is too much fat and is due for a collapse. I mean i hope i dun sound like all doom amd gloom, but this is a great time to cash out.
Glad to hear, we have some common ground then. I can understand your reservations for it falling too far, but we agree it needs to be cheaper. Anyone who can't or won't answer the question pretty much says they want it to go up because of their greed. Speaks volumes of those who don't. I'm glad both of you have answered, thank you.
So, you're mad because all the cards are cheaper, but they aren't cheaper enough? Sounds pretty entitled, to me.
When is wanting to pay less for a product entitlement? You and I agree to disagree and move on, I can't debate with crazy.
@BuffSam89: You and I are done.
... and I'm done with the thread. Anything else is unhealthy at this point. Time to move on.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I don’t disagree. But, they all can also be hobbies that are more expensive than MTG. You get out of it what you put into it.
And in this set putting in $14 is getting $1. Worth it.
Hyperbole alert!
But then, this is a very important point, so pay attaention. Don’t buy it... but, I bet you’ll jump at the chance to save a few bucks on those singles that come down on price. Amirite?
So, you're mad because all the cards are cheaper, but they aren't cheaper enough? Sounds pretty entitled, to me.
You know you don't have an argument when you throw around the word entitled.
Yet you throw around the word smug. You really are a special individual, aren’t you.
I guess it’s whatever. Lots of people expect something for nothing. I’ve based my life around the 1st law of physics. Anything fun costs at least $8.
So, you're mad because all the cards are cheaper, but they aren't cheaper enough? Sounds pretty entitled, to me.
When is wanting to pay less for a product entitlement? You and I agree to disagree and move on, I can't debate with crazy.
... and I'm done with the thread. Anything else is unhealthy at this point. Time to move on.
Just so we're clear, your stance is that you want cards to be cheaper. Cards are cheaper as a result of this set. In fact, every card included in the set has dropped considerably. But you are nevertheless upset, because the cards aren't cheaper enough. Then you call me crazy and that you can't debate? Well at least one of those things is true.
A good thing you took care of your own argument. No one is asking something for nothing. I've seen scarecrows that are less strawman than that argument.
Jeez.. Running, swimming, reading books, acting, are all hobbies that are much cheaper than MtG, but what's the point in this anyway?
That all depends. Running is fairly cheap, swimming can become more costly than casual Magic spending depending on where you do it at, reading can be more expensive if you buy the books and read them fairly quickly, and acting sure is rather expensive as no one acts casually and you need things like headshots, acting classes, voice classes, and more to get parts in plays/movies.
Liking how some cards have already dipped in price.. UMA goyf, karn, liliana, hierarch, and some other cards are lower by 5-10 dollars than other printings. Hopefully, this set will be opened a lot, so the prices would dip a little bit more.
Just because this is the most expensive booster set ever doesn't bother me because I can just sell my second house. I really don't see what anyone else has to complain about.
Honestly people. Stop punching down. We all want the game to be cheaper and people with less money being able to play with Snapcaster Mages doesn't hurt you unless your fragile ego rests on having things others can't afford.
I've heard alarmism over the idea that if WotC reprints too many of a certain card, the hoarders will sell off their unused troves and the market will be flooded and the price will be too low and the Magic economy will completely crash. Why is this bad again? Especially if this tactic is used only selectively to make certain cards much more affordable. Do we really need a Magic Wall Street with a caste system of who can afford to play what formats?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Protection from reason (Decadent_Creed can't be blocked, targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted by reason.)
Just because this is the most expensive booster set ever doesn't bother me because I can just sell my second house. I really don't see what anyone else has to complain about.
Honestly people. Stop punching down. We all want the game to be cheaper and people with less money being able to play with Snapcaster Mages doesn't hurt you unless your fragile ego rests on having things others can't afford.
I've heard alarmism over the idea that if WotC reprints too many of a certain card, the hoarders will sell off their unused troves and the market will be flooded and the price will be too low and the Magic economy will completely crash. Why is this bad again? Especially if this tactic is used only selectively to make certain cards much more affordable. Do we really need a Magic Wall Street with a caste system of who can afford to play what formats?
Honestly it feels less like a wallstreet and more like Beanie babies at this point with how people act over these cards.
Let WOTC pull another Chronicles, the game needs a bit of a cleanse anyway and for anyone against this just remember that you did decide to invest your money into painted card board.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Never forget whose grace and favor led to your success and always give your thanks, otherwise you might be doomed to loose it.
[quote from="WarMachinePrime »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/801595-full-gallery-is-up?comment=269"]
Just so we're clear, your stance is that you want cards to be cheaper. Cards are cheaper as a result of this set. In fact, every card included in the set has dropped considerably. But you are nevertheless upset, because the cards aren't cheaper enough. Then you call me crazy and that you can't debate? Well at least one of those things is true.
See, my issue is that the top end cards may be cheaper now, but in 6mo to a year, the cards will be near their pre-UMA prices. It took nearly yearly Masters reprints for Goyf to see a significant price drops
This set also feels like Wizards are throwing yet another bone to investors. People who can afford to buy up boxes and sell off the singles just to make a profit. This has come very shortly after the GRN Mythic ed. Where people bought it just to sell the pieces for a profit, and everyone outside the US was excluded from the opportunity.
It's starting to look like Wizards are solely catering to these investors, and people who want the cards to play are left to fight over the 100 copies in the wild that the investors have graciously allowed us to see. The arguement that these products 'aren't for you' is also very grating. I'm a player, and reprinted staples aren't for me? That starts to paint am ugly picture of what Wizards thinks of players.
[quote from="WarMachinePrime »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/801595-full-gallery-is-up?comment=269"]
Just so we're clear, your stance is that you want cards to be cheaper. Cards are cheaper as a result of this set. In fact, every card included in the set has dropped considerably. But you are nevertheless upset, because the cards aren't cheaper enough. Then you call me crazy and that you can't debate? Well at least one of those things is true.
See, my issue is that the top end cards may be cheaper now, but in 6mo to a year, the cards will be near their pre-UMA prices. It took nearly yearly Masters reprints for Goyf to see a significant price drops
Boo hoo? Supply and demand?
If a card is not in demand, its price dip will not only stay, but likely continue to trend downward (this is apparent in all previous Master sets). If a card is highly in demand, and people are buying them, eventually supplies will dry up and prices will begin to rise again.
This set also feels like Wizards are throwing yet another bone to investors. People who can afford to buy up boxes and sell off the singles just to make a profit. This has come very shortly after the GRN Mythic ed. Where people bought it just to sell the pieces for a profit, and everyone outside the US was excluded from the opportunity.
Yes, except the difference between GRN Mythic and this is that the people who buy, open, and sell UMA are actively contributing to the reduction of singles prices by creating more supply of all the in-demand cards. People will continue to open and sell the singles until it is no longer profitable to do so. Right now, box EV is still something like $100 more than MSRP and nearly $200 more than what people are paying. This means lots of boxes will be open, lots of singles will be in the wild, and we all get to benefit from price drops until those singles dry up, the boxes dry up, box EV falls below what people are paying and people simply aren't opening boxes anymore.
It's starting to look like Wizards are solely catering to these investors, and people who want the cards to play are left to fight over the 100 copies in the wild that the investors have graciously allowed us to see. The arguement that these products 'aren't for you' is also very grating. I'm a player, and reprinted staples aren't for me? That starts to paint am ugly picture of what Wizards thinks of players.
Let's paint a picture of basic sales economics:
Investors buy this product to make money --> Boxes contain $300-400 worth of singles --> Investors crack the boxes and sell the singles to the public --> More sales to the public puts more copies into the market --> More copies in the market mean lower prices due to sellers competing with each other --> Every player trying to buy singles benefit from competitive price drops.
Speaking of being entitled to low prices, I'll tell you a quick story of being a long range target shooter in California. Gun laws in CA are the most strict in the country, often being more about perception than actual safety. In any case, last year, a law was passed that prohibited online sales of ammunition to residents in CA. Now, I used to be able to buy .308 match ammo online in bulk for as little as $0.90/rd (or a bout $18 for a box of 20), which was great for punching holes in paper and ringing steel plates to 1,000yds. But with the new law, I can no longer do that. I have to buy locally, where stores are selling Federal Gold Medal Match for something like $29.99/box ($1.50/rd). And on top of that, starting next year, thanks to another new law, all ammo sales require NICS background check, just like a firearm (adding cost and hassle to purchase). Am I entitled to those lower costs because I don't agree with the law, the situation, or policies enacted at local stores? Nope. That hobby is expensive, and there's nothing I can do about it. The choices I made were to bulk-order and load up when I had the chance and then dramatically cut back practice and recreational outings.
We should be happy that WOTC is actively providing these needed reprints of high value cards (and drastically lowering the prices in the process). If people continue to be upset because it's not doing enough, well, join the party of just about every hobby on earth. Or do something that's free.
This is just reality. We are not entitled to $10 Tarmogoyfs. And these evil "investors" people are so mad at, are the biggest source of adding singles to the marketplace and reducing prices.
Liking how some cards have already dipped in price.. UMA goyf, karn, liliana, hierarch, and some other cards are lower by 5-10 dollars than other printings. Hopefully, this set will be opened a lot, so the prices would dip a little bit more.
I agree. I love these sets. They've always made a lot of chase EDH cards accessible. This set is the best of them for me. I am literally building my Azami deck now off this set, since 8 of its key cards are here. That's a lot. Let alone Pattern of Rebirth for my Arixmethes deck. I am thrilled with this
Oh FFS, get the hell outta here with that nonsense lol. Talk about smug.
And as far as investment, so your saying you’ve spent a lot of money. Triggered!!!! You aren’t allowed to talk financials here.
As for your “question”, the hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be. If you want to compete at a high level, be prepared to open your wallet. I don’t see how there is any correlation there. Beyond that, you’re posing this question in a thread about a set containing primarily eternal staples. Nobody is priced out of playing magic, they may be priced out of a particular format, but they certainly can still enjoy the game. This is, frankly, a stupid question.
I'll answer it - less expensive. But what does that lip service actually accomplish?
The actual drivers that are putting in effort to make the game "more expensive" are actually a minority in numbers, but the real problem is that there's no one, not even WotC in the actual opposite direction to counteract that effort. Most, if not the rest of us here, including you and me and just "silent followers" of the market which is already tilted in one direction due to the imbalance I just mentioned.
Do not pretend that you are not like every one of us, functionally silent as well, choosing to follow the market in practice instead of leading it to cheaper prices at a active effort of personal loss. The actual amount we have spent/"invested" in the game is not the actual factor, it's what we do with our collection relatively to the amount spent with regards to the active market is what really matters, and in that line, we're on the same boat, just following the tides.
So what if you (or I, or anyone else, really) choose to voice out the opinion from your inner desire instead of your functional behavior in the game and its market? It does not equate that our choice of vocal silence to match our functional one doesn't mean we lack the same inner desire, it's just that after all these years we're convinced that voicing said inner desire doesn't change anything at all (via WotC or the Secondary Market) and is honestly, pretty pointless at this point of time, WotC is certainly not that dumb to have not noticed that inner desire by now, even if they chose not to acknowledge and cater to it.
Is that what that meant? Well dang, I had no idea until you told me what my own words meant. It's good thing you were hear to clear up my own words for me. I couldn't have done it without you.
Not once did I say that. Try again.
Is that what I want? Man, this site is so helpful telling me what my own words mean, what I want, and can/cannot have or do. I've never seen a site that's been this helpful. Without any of you apparently I would have zero idea on how to get through life.
Since you and everyone else is so helpful, would you all like to tell me when I'm hungry, tired, happy, and when I have enough money 'cause it seems like you all know far more than me about every single thing about me.
And in this set putting in $14 is getting $1. Worth it.
You know you don't have an argument when you throw around the word entitled.
I do want mtg to be cheaper.. but do not reprint everything to the dirt until almost everything is worthless like Chronicles. I'm willing to pay for a 20-30$ Hierarch, but not for a 70-80$ hierarch.
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Hmm i have no opinion on this really, i guess i don't care either way? If pressed to make a decision, i guess cheaper eurekas would make me happy. So ya cheaper cards but other than that no, i dun care. Sold some pieces of power, still got most of em and most vintage decks are buildable. But i am alright with chronicles level printing hell i think it would likely happen without chronicles printing (price collapse). Magic is really running on a demographic surge, if it cannotjustify itself as a game, price notwithstanding, it will collapse. But there will always be a core group still playing or collecting (yes i am still harping on legacy, i am quite fascinated by its resilience). But as it is there is too much fat and is due for a collapse. I mean i hope i dun sound like all doom amd gloom, but this is a great time to cash out.
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Glad to hear, we have some common ground then. I can understand your reservations for it falling too far, but we agree it needs to be cheaper. Anyone who can't or won't answer the question pretty much says they want it to go up because of their greed. Speaks volumes of those who don't. I'm glad both of you have answered, thank you.
When is wanting to pay less for a product entitlement? You and I agree to disagree and move on, I can't debate with crazy.
@BuffSam89: You and I are done.
... and I'm done with the thread. Anything else is unhealthy at this point. Time to move on.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Hyperbole alert!
But then, this is a very important point, so pay attaention. Don’t buy it... but, I bet you’ll jump at the chance to save a few bucks on those singles that come down on price. Amirite?
Yet you throw around the word smug. You really are a special individual, aren’t you.
I guess it’s whatever. Lots of people expect something for nothing. I’ve based my life around the 1st law of physics. Anything fun costs at least $8.
Just so we're clear, your stance is that you want cards to be cheaper. Cards are cheaper as a result of this set. In fact, every card included in the set has dropped considerably. But you are nevertheless upset, because the cards aren't cheaper enough. Then you call me crazy and that you can't debate? Well at least one of those things is true.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Oh hold one, I actually have something for this.
A good thing you took care of your own argument. No one is asking something for nothing. I've seen scarecrows that are less strawman than that argument.
That all depends. Running is fairly cheap, swimming can become more costly than casual Magic spending depending on where you do it at, reading can be more expensive if you buy the books and read them fairly quickly, and acting sure is rather expensive as no one acts casually and you need things like headshots, acting classes, voice classes, and more to get parts in plays/movies.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Honestly people. Stop punching down. We all want the game to be cheaper and people with less money being able to play with Snapcaster Mages doesn't hurt you unless your fragile ego rests on having things others can't afford.
I've heard alarmism over the idea that if WotC reprints too many of a certain card, the hoarders will sell off their unused troves and the market will be flooded and the price will be too low and the Magic economy will completely crash. Why is this bad again? Especially if this tactic is used only selectively to make certain cards much more affordable. Do we really need a Magic Wall Street with a caste system of who can afford to play what formats?
Honestly it feels less like a wallstreet and more like Beanie babies at this point with how people act over these cards.
Let WOTC pull another Chronicles, the game needs a bit of a cleanse anyway and for anyone against this just remember that you did decide to invest your money into painted card board.
See, my issue is that the top end cards may be cheaper now, but in 6mo to a year, the cards will be near their pre-UMA prices. It took nearly yearly Masters reprints for Goyf to see a significant price drops
This set also feels like Wizards are throwing yet another bone to investors. People who can afford to buy up boxes and sell off the singles just to make a profit. This has come very shortly after the GRN Mythic ed. Where people bought it just to sell the pieces for a profit, and everyone outside the US was excluded from the opportunity.
It's starting to look like Wizards are solely catering to these investors, and people who want the cards to play are left to fight over the 100 copies in the wild that the investors have graciously allowed us to see. The arguement that these products 'aren't for you' is also very grating. I'm a player, and reprinted staples aren't for me? That starts to paint am ugly picture of what Wizards thinks of players.
Boo hoo? Supply and demand?
If a card is not in demand, its price dip will not only stay, but likely continue to trend downward (this is apparent in all previous Master sets). If a card is highly in demand, and people are buying them, eventually supplies will dry up and prices will begin to rise again.
Yes, except the difference between GRN Mythic and this is that the people who buy, open, and sell UMA are actively contributing to the reduction of singles prices by creating more supply of all the in-demand cards. People will continue to open and sell the singles until it is no longer profitable to do so. Right now, box EV is still something like $100 more than MSRP and nearly $200 more than what people are paying. This means lots of boxes will be open, lots of singles will be in the wild, and we all get to benefit from price drops until those singles dry up, the boxes dry up, box EV falls below what people are paying and people simply aren't opening boxes anymore.
Let's paint a picture of basic sales economics:
Investors buy this product to make money --> Boxes contain $300-400 worth of singles --> Investors crack the boxes and sell the singles to the public --> More sales to the public puts more copies into the market --> More copies in the market mean lower prices due to sellers competing with each other --> Every player trying to buy singles benefit from competitive price drops.
Speaking of being entitled to low prices, I'll tell you a quick story of being a long range target shooter in California. Gun laws in CA are the most strict in the country, often being more about perception than actual safety. In any case, last year, a law was passed that prohibited online sales of ammunition to residents in CA. Now, I used to be able to buy .308 match ammo online in bulk for as little as $0.90/rd (or a bout $18 for a box of 20), which was great for punching holes in paper and ringing steel plates to 1,000yds. But with the new law, I can no longer do that. I have to buy locally, where stores are selling Federal Gold Medal Match for something like $29.99/box ($1.50/rd). And on top of that, starting next year, thanks to another new law, all ammo sales require NICS background check, just like a firearm (adding cost and hassle to purchase). Am I entitled to those lower costs because I don't agree with the law, the situation, or policies enacted at local stores? Nope. That hobby is expensive, and there's nothing I can do about it. The choices I made were to bulk-order and load up when I had the chance and then dramatically cut back practice and recreational outings.
We should be happy that WOTC is actively providing these needed reprints of high value cards (and drastically lowering the prices in the process). If people continue to be upset because it's not doing enough, well, join the party of just about every hobby on earth. Or do something that's free.
This is just reality. We are not entitled to $10 Tarmogoyfs. And these evil "investors" people are so mad at, are the biggest source of adding singles to the marketplace and reducing prices.
Can we lock this thread already?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||