I'm just saying that the backlash on the set is based around something that isn't even true ($14/pack) or something that is petty and selfish (doesn't contain random card X, Y, or Z). I fully think this set is amazing and see massive value, and I stand by that claim by purchasing it (as do the thousands of other people buying boxes).
There are things to nitpick, sure, but this is easily the best Masters set WOTC has ever made, and people still whine and complain about it.
The $14 packs are something to complain about, fact is WotC thought that this was worth that much. Just because people aren't willing to pay that doesn't mean that isn't an incredible fault of WotC thinking that. There has yet to be a reason as to why they did this and there isn't one.
This set is average and nothing more. Even if I had money I wouldn't buy packs of this.
Average? Compared to what? Certainly not prior Masters sets, which it is clearly better than.
I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on the value of this set.
Going by card values where they are RIGHT NOW, random packs of Ultimate Master break even on average (exceeding value if you get a box for $260 or less). I've done the math on the average value of rares alone and going through a few dozen sample drafts on Draftmagic (looking at the bots to see the full contents of the 24 packs) indicates that sort of positive value.
When the set comes out and prices of cards like Phrexian Altar, Gaddock Teeg, Back to Basics, Noble Hierarch, and Phyrexian Tower each fall $10-20, however, it will be far less likely (but still possible) to get good value through packs. While this set isn't good for pack-cracking, however, the simple fact that it makes these cards more affordable (and that it passes a number of decent cards into pauper/peasant formats) seems to make the set a net good for the MTG community.
Like other people, I wish that I wish that this value could be passed on to cards with few reprints (those more likely to have these price falls) like Oubliette. I also wish that high-value commons and uncommons (whose values are unlikely to drop much, raising the actual value of packs) like Fatal Push or Sensei's Divining Top were included. In the end, however, I am left wanting more of a good thing rather than cursing an actively terrible thing... which isn't a bad place to be.
I'm just saying that the backlash on the set is based around something that isn't even true ($14/pack) or something that is petty and selfish (doesn't contain random card X, Y, or Z). I fully think this set is amazing and see massive value, and I stand by that claim by purchasing it (as do the thousands of other people buying boxes).
There are things to nitpick, sure, but this is easily the best Masters set WOTC has ever made, and people still whine and complain about it.
The $14 packs are something to complain about, fact is WotC thought that this was worth that much. Just because people aren't willing to pay that doesn't mean that isn't an incredible fault of WotC thinking that. There has yet to be a reason as to why they did this and there isn't one.
This set is average and nothing more. Even if I had money I wouldn't buy packs of this.
Why does MSRP matter when nobody is paying MSRP?
How is this set average, when it contains more value reprints than any other set ever made?
What set is better, in terms of value, than this?
I'm just saying that the backlash on the set is based around something that isn't even true ($14/pack) or something that is petty and selfish (doesn't contain random card X, Y, or Z). I fully think this set is amazing and see massive value, and I stand by that claim by purchasing it (as do the thousands of other people buying boxes).
There are things to nitpick, sure, but this is easily the best Masters set WOTC has ever made, and people still whine and complain about it.
The $14 packs are something to complain about, fact is WotC thought that this was worth that much. Just because people aren't willing to pay that doesn't mean that isn't an incredible fault of WotC thinking that. There has yet to be a reason as to why they did this and there isn't one.
This set is average and nothing more. Even if I had money I wouldn't buy packs of this.
Why does MSRP matter when nobody is paying MSRP?
How is this set average, when it contains more value reprints than any other set ever made?
What set is better, in terms of value, than this?
Heh, yes MSRP is not going to matter to the consumer in the end... thing is the price of the product will speak for itself when the dust settles
I think this set is oki, its pricey but its better than previous. And it has many expensive cards at rare, which should knock down prices somewhat. I think its a win so far. I am not really sure why there is alot of toxity. And i agree that alot of people say they understand ev or card equity, but then argue like they don't. I guess they are trying to talk up or down prices. But i don't really care either way i am just going to take the opportunity to pick what i want, and maybe a box if it so tickles my fancy. It is really just a card game afterall. Chill ppl.
Short version is it's a trend across all subjects, fandoms, politics, personal beliefs, etc., and has been exploded due to growths in social media and immediate-response "news." The trend is no longer to think and analyze something, but to prioritize "first impressions" and circulate those as much as possible as soon as possible for anything and everything. So whatever the initial gut-reaction is to anything, it is nearly immediately blown wildly out of proportion due to social media feedback loops. As a teacher (and within 2 weeks, parent), I have probably spent way too much time learning and familiarizing myself with the psychological effects of social media and immediate gratification. This is just one of many things where someone isn't happy about one tiny aspect (even though everything else is spectacular) and that then snowballs into the hate and division we see in nearly every element of every part of life these days.
This is my personal opinion on Masters set quality:
MMA > MM17 > EMA > MM15 = A25 > free boxes of IMA > dog feces on my shoe > paying money for IMA
IMO, if this set was at the $10 price point of the past sets since MMA, we would be talking about it lagging just a little behind the original for the best Masters set ever.
With the price increase, I think it will end up placing a little ahead or a little behind Eternal Masters, depending on where prices settle in 6 months.
This is my personal opinion on Masters set quality:
MMA > MM17 > EMA > MM15 = A25 > free boxes of IMA > dog feces on my shoe > paying money for IMA
IMO, if this set was at the $10 price point of the past sets since MMA, we would be talking about it lagging just a little behind the original for the best Masters set ever.
With the price increase, I think it will end up placing a little ahead or a little behind Eternal Masters, depending on where prices settle in 6 months.
Yes it feels about ema, honestly... i was'nt really impressed by mma, but i did like ema.
Honestly, UMA is about what I expected from another Masters Set. Once I saw Box Toppers, it had to be a given that the set was going to fall upon average, why would they front load the set and then add Box Toppers to boot?
I appreciate this set as I appreciate every Masters set - a few nice reprints for picking up singles of, awesome new art, and prices dipping enough to encourage me to maybe buy a set of cards if I feel the need.
But I have been moving away from competitive MTG and into casual commander domain, which is really the draw to these sets. As a competitive player, they never really appealed to me outside of maybe picking up some new art for some cards in my deck.
Fortunately the Box Toppers are really my only draw to UMA and that is where my money will go - not to packs or even normal singles.
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STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
The set looks great, just don't pay money for it unless you're a cigar-chomping gambler who can stand to waste some cash. Rejoice, and enjoy your deeply discounted Faithless Lootings before the price resettles to being about the same as previous printings. I'd bet this is a fun set to draft, but I'll never know, as I've been priced out of it.
The vitriol is not without reason, and reducing it to "people are being toxic because the internet is toxic" is a bit disingenuous, even if this is an easily observable trend.
Here, people are reacting with excessive cynicism and vitriol, but the core complaint of lottery packs is very true. However, most of the people making this argument are really just annoyed that they're being priced out of a product that is mostly designed to be opened by stores.
The packs are a trap, and we know it, and complain about it. Just don't fall for the trap. A sad person opens a UMA pack with Seismic Assault. A happy person orders it at less than half the price of previous printings.
Made this to visualize the value of the set. Took numbers from MTG Goldfish as of today and broke them into 50+, 20-50, 10-20, 5-10, and under 5. On overall value and distribution across the board, UMA has epic value. And from the types of cards included, I don't imagine many of them falling too much further, but we shall see. As it stands (and even after initial drops), this set is incredible and the $20-50 range is MASSIVE.
Here, people are reacting with excessive cynicism and vitriol, but the core complaint of lottery packs is very true. However, most of the people making this argument are really just annoyed that they're being priced out of a product that is mostly designed to be opened by stores.
I’m also seeing a lot of “Sure there are nice reprints, but they aren’t the reprints that I WANTED!”
The set looks great, just don't pay money for it unless you're a cigar-chomping gambler who can stand to waste some cash. Rejoice, and enjoy your deeply discounted Faithless Lootings before the price resettles to being about the same as previous printings. I'd bet this is a fun set to draft, but I'll never know, as I've been priced out of it.
The vitriol is not without reason, and reducing it to "people are being toxic because the internet is toxic" is a bit disingenuous, even if this is an easily observable trend.
Here, people are reacting with excessive cynicism and vitriol, but the core complaint of lottery packs is very true. However, most of the people making this argument are really just annoyed that they're being priced out of a product that is mostly designed to be opened by stores.
The packs are a trap, and we know it, and complain about it. Just don't fall for the trap. A sad person opens a UMA pack with Seismic Assault. A happy person orders it at less than half the price of previous printings.
Hmmm i dunno maybe its cos i am really happy to see fauna shaman, and noble hierarch at rare, so even if i do not get packs i will still target singles, thats a win no? Oh and engineered explosives 0.0
Made this to visualize the value of the set. Took numbers from MTG Goldfish as of today and broke them into 50+, 20-50, 10-20, 5-10, and under 5. On overall value and distribution across the board, UMA has epic value. And from the types of cards included, I don't imagine many of them falling too much further, but we shall see. As it stands (and even after initial drops), this set is incredible and the $20-50 range is MASSIVE.
Made this to visualize the value of the set. Took numbers from MTG Goldfish as of today and broke them into 50+, 20-50, 10-20, 5-10, and under 5. On overall value and distribution across the board, UMA has epic value. And from the types of cards included, I don't imagine many of them falling too much further, but we shall see. As it stands (and even after initial drops), this set is incredible and the $20-50 range is MASSIVE.
People are going to ignore this, because they would rather complain, but if anyone looks at that graph and still thinks this is 'average'? lol
Yeah, never mind the fact that it has more cards of value in every price block than every other set, other than tying for the most $5-10 cards with MMA... And the $20-50 block is more than twice that of the next highest (MMA), and 3.6x the average number in that block across all the other Masters sets...
I'm just saying that the backlash on the set is based around something that isn't even true ($14/pack) or something that is petty and selfish (doesn't contain random card X, Y, or Z). I fully think this set is amazing and see massive value, and I stand by that claim by purchasing it (as do the thousands of other people buying boxes).
There are things to nitpick, sure, but this is easily the best Masters set WOTC has ever made, and people still whine and complain about it.
The $14 packs are something to complain about, fact is WotC thought that this was worth that much. Just because people aren't willing to pay that doesn't mean that isn't an incredible fault of WotC thinking that. There has yet to be a reason as to why they did this and there isn't one.
This set is average and nothing more. Even if I had money I wouldn't buy packs of this.
Average? Compared to what? Certainly not prior Masters sets, which it is clearly better than.
This is the only masters set that I plan to buy a pack or two, since there's not too much chaff in the packs compared to previous sets. This might bite me back when I open a talrand or seismic assault, but that's just the part of gambling.
And some new art like Vengeful Rebirth is just really nice to look at.
Art CAN be reused or re-purposed (most famously Alpha's Birds of Paradise was originally a Volcanic Island), but usually big names get specifically commissioned for art on a particular card.
As a side note, did we ever figure out what the "Definitely not Dig Through Time" art ended up being? There are no blue cards with that art, and I don't think I saw ANY card with that art...? It's the face of the box, but not in the set?
The thing with the price of the singles... well I'll let people find out later. I'm going to be frank that the only cards I like the look of in the set are the modern staples and a few of the super prolific commander staples like Ancient Tomb, which is literally used in every commander deck known to mankind. Kind of curious to see how quick the depreciation is going to happen with this set and if it will be similar to standard, given the kind of cards included. Probably going to see a lot of cards that see fringe play get tanked.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The thing with the price of the singles... well I'll let people find out later. I'm going to be frank that the only cards I like the look of in the set are the modern staples and a few of the super prolific commander staples like Ancient Tomb, which is literally used in every commander deck known to mankind. Kind of curious to see how quick the depreciation is going to happen with this set and if it will be similar to standard, given the kind of cards included. Probably going to see a lot of cards that see fringe play get tanked.
I’ve said this before, but I expect this set to have a very similar trajectory to Eternal Masters. Many cards will go down and stay down for a while, but the multiple format staples and EDH all-stars will rebound a year from now, and in two years (barring more reprints) some of them will be as much or more than they were a month ago.
The cards that will see a huge drop and stay there are the cards that are not widely played or are legal in only one format, and their value was propped up only by scarcity (think Karakas, Natural Order, Baleful Strix from EMA).
Average? Compared to what? Certainly not prior Masters sets, which it is clearly better than.
When the price was set $100 more than other sets initially I'm going to take that to heart. Much like how MM2 increased the price for no reason this here gets reduced marks for that. I'm not going to ignore a choice they made just because someone out there is going to get a shiny full art Karn. To ignore something stupid would be even more moronic than the initial decision. People not paying that price doesn't make that bad decision go away.
It matters when they made the decision in the first place, but sure lets ignore that because you can get a shiny Lavaclaw for an extra $40. Ooo, be still my beating wallet.
How is this set average, when it contains more value reprints than any other set ever made?
It's average thanks to the $14 price tag and I'm going to consider it at that always as that's the price they put it at to begin with. The fact no one wants to buy this at that price shows the idiocy from the start. This is a terrible prodcut at the price they had it at, it only starts looking average when you drop it down $100 a box. They intended this set at $14 and it isn't there, and that's why it's average.
What set is better, in terms of value, than this?
Any set that doesn't have $10-$14 boosters. Crazy, I know.
Short version is it's a trend across all subjects, fandoms, politics, personal beliefs, etc., and has been exploded due to growths in social media and immediate-response "news." The trend is no longer to think and analyze something, but to prioritize "first impressions" and circulate those as much as possible as soon as possible for anything and everything. So whatever the initial gut-reaction is to anything, it is nearly immediately blown wildly out of proportion due to social media feedback loops. As a teacher (and within 2 weeks, parent), I have probably spent way too much time learning and familiarizing myself with the psychological effects of social media and immediate gratification. This is just one of many things where someone isn't happy about one tiny aspect (even though everything else is spectacular) and that then snowballs into the hate and division we see in nearly every element of every part of life these days.
Oh come off this "everyone complains, no one is happy" bull you're pushing. Sorry, but when something has flaws I'm going to point them out because if I am to pay money for something I want it as good as possible and don't feel like getting $2 worth of cards for $10. I'm not going to sit there wide eyed with hope and wonder that I could get $150 worth of cards from one pack. That's a pipe dream and nothing more. It's far more likely you open pure junk and wasted your money.
Like I said before, if you want to spend $10 to get a $1 rare then be my guest. I can't control your poor money choices. I'll stick to living in reality knowing that everything isn't sunshine and rainbows and it's far more likely to get the shaft than something good.
Art CAN be reused or re-purposed (most famously Alpha's Birds of Paradise was originally a Volcanic Island), but usually big names get specifically commissioned for art on a particular card.
As a side note, did we ever figure out what the "Definitely not Dig Through Time" art ended up being? There are no blue cards with that art, and I don't think I saw ANY card with that art...? It's the face of the box, but not in the set?
Thanks for the info. I understand the Bitter Blossom art and the artist is a big name, but why commission the Safehold Elite new art? The art is definitely Lorwyn/Shadowmor flavor, but I don't see WOTC paying for new common rarity art. So maybe it is unused art from a future set?
Still kinda cool they got Jesper Ejsing who's debut was in Lorwyn to come and do some new art for old Lorwyn and Shadowmor cards.
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Never forget whose grace and favor led to your success and always give your thanks, otherwise you might be doomed to loose it.
Per person, invested players spend far more than most walk in newbie youngsters who also dabble in Big box store products. For Hasbro the customer base they are used to dealing with is the new and uninvested youngster, while wizards of the coast originally catered to a niche market of players that were part of the pop cap / card collecting socializing types. Out of the two the latter became the core of what keeps this game alive at all, but the company has made so many mistakes on supporting this group that it is also murdering the formers growth.
Ultimately Wizards doesn't want to deal with their problems. Given the last few years they rather ignore them and just let the issue die off somehow, but because of the wondrous power of the internet that strategy has backfired spectacularly and eroded peoples confidence in the company, which came to a head last year when everyone got so sure wizards would not reprint anything they went and bought up everything in a frenzy. I'm just praying to the heavens they are going to spread the reprints into normally priced boxes, work as many as they can through standard to get their prices dropped, and stop their attack on the people who are actually keeping this game alive.
I mean seriously, who do they think spends the biggest dollar amount here? The guy walking in doing draft on set release, or the person who is buying all those singles on the secondary market and making the singles market actually function? Without that singles market, the game would just die because the creativity of this design team is paltry compared to what has been done by other games now.
You're not wrong about invested players spending more money per person and propping up the singles/secondary market, which creates demand for the primary product, but at the end of the day two major factors is why WotC doesn't really care about "stabbing" these players.
1) Like how the Secondary Market props the primary product, the money invested players spend pretty much channel through primary product buyers (which consists of mainly LGS, the big-online-retailers and the in-and-out fab crowds). Sure, without the invested players, the primary buyers have less incentive and the system would slowly decay and collapse, but at the same time, without the those channels, the secondary market invested players can't put their money in either.
Here's the biggest catch - I know we all would "If WotC made boosters better it would make me (aka invested players) be a primary product purchaser as well, isn't it better than the relying on the "in-and-out fab" crowds)... and the answer is actually, not really. This stems from the second point I'm raising.
2) Invested players may not touch as much primary product, but they don't really leave the Secondary Market either, at least definitely not at the rate the "in-and-out fab crowd leave". Our threats are basically put, empty, because they don't account us for much in sales in the very first place, and we would not actually leave the market that's propping up their actual customers. As long as we are still buying singles, the primary market will still function and guess what, in reality we have never successfully crippled the Secondary market on our own - everything only goes up, which means we actually wield no power, to put it bluntly.
WotC likes the fact that the primary market holds actual power over us. Keeping them alive keeps us alive because strictly speaking the only time we stop buying singles (as a general whole) is when a card reaches an insane point (be it due to a lack of supply or other insane reasons we as a playerbase tend to actually commit by ourselves)... and then when a reprint comes and prices drops... BAM... invested players continue to buy singles, which in turn props the primary market to continue risking packs for the Secondary Market.
Yes, bluntly put, it's basically exploiting one group to meet the needs of another. The two groups are very distinct despite our preference to mix them together just because we do buy pack on occasion, but WotC never wants the group to actually be as one, because that one group would hold way too much power than they would like. The minute somebody complains about the nature of booster pack system but still stays in the game/secondary market they technically fall into the other group instead, regardless of their actual primary product purchase history/frequency.
So, the only challenge is the maintaining the flow of purchase of primary products by the "in-and-out fab crowd" in order to keep these players "invested" slightly longer. While the later group does spend more per person, MTG is small enough to the general population out there that "good targeted marketing" can make the "in-and-out fab crowd" spend more in total instead, which in turn regulates the Secondary Market's interest to continue staying there. This basically explains why so much of their marketing efforts to put towards getting new players in, but seldom to sustain them in favor of turning them over for a fresher batch in a few years and almost none of them are for invested players, because people rarely actually leave the Secondary Market once they're in.
Well, there's what I believe their general strategy for the game (via Standard Boosters is). If my hypothesis is not wildly off, then Masters Series is basically the same system set-up, but replace "in-and-out fab crowd"/"new players" with "older uninvested players with disposable income to spare" and it's the exact same progress (except they know the replaced market is a whole lot smaller, hence the Limited runs). No product is actually targeted to people like us, who are invested enough to the point we are here for a decent amount of time. We are the "Secondary Market tool/incentive add-on" for their actual target demographics to buy-in, knowing they can cash out to us afterwards, the guarantee that even if you suffer a loss, at least you get something back.
Any set that doesn't have $10-$14 boosters. Crazy, I know.
...
Oh come off this "everyone complains, no one is happy" bull you're pushing. Sorry, but when something has flaws I'm going to point them out because if I am to pay money for something I want it as good as possible and don't feel like getting $2 worth of cards for $10. I'm not going to sit there wide eyed with hope and wonder that I could get $150 worth of cards from one pack. That's a pipe dream and nothing more. It's far more likely you open pure junk and wasted your money.
Like I said before, if you want to spend $10 to get a $1 rare then be my guest. I can't control your poor money choices. I'll stick to living in reality knowing that everything isn't sunshine and rainbows and it's far more likely to get the shaft than something good.
Made this to visualize the value of the set. Took numbers from MTG Goldfish as of today and broke them into 50+, 20-50, 10-20, 5-10, and under 5. On overall value and distribution across the board, UMA has epic value. And from the types of cards included, I don't imagine many of them falling too much further, but we shall see. As it stands (and even after initial drops), this set is incredible and the $20-50 range is MASSIVE.
Thanks for the info. I understand the Bitter Blossom art and the artist is a big name, but why commission the Safehold Elite new art? The art is definitely Lorwyn/Shadowmor flavor, but I don't see WOTC paying for new common rarity art. So maybe it is unused art from a future set?
Still kinda cool they got Jesper Ejsing who's debut was in Lorwyn to come and do some new art for old Lorwyn and Shadowmor cards.
Actually I think it's more of unused art they determined won't be used for a future set, hence their willingness to use it here (A return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor doesn't look favorable on the Rabiah Scale). Older sets tend to have extra unused art then modern ones (partially due them generally pining down their design guides more efficiently from the get-go) but even they're not immune to it now (there's a reason we call this the "Ixalan Masterpiece Masters" and those are obviously considered unused art even if Ixalan wasn't too long ago.)
But for all we know, it could always be the art director's whim (maybe they had the budget, maybe he liked the card, maybe he felt chaff commons didn't have enough representation in new art across... maybe a combination of all of them) and it's actually new art. Even if they gave us an insight article it'll probably be art direction given out and the sketches, I mean "we kept this for years" doesn't exactly make for needed information (besides the fact we're nosey and don't mind knowing extra).
Reminder it's in the same set as Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and oh boy from Cube experience I can tell you how annoying an unkillable 2/2 can be if you didn't draw into the right answers.
The Dig Through Time one seems awfully silly though. If they blindsided us by not having Dig (which no one will miss) or putting it on Preordain instead it's understandable, but it's just plain silly to use it only as box art (I mean even if they change their mind in the future, the damage is already done since we are aware the art exists). Lazav/Dimir Guy from GoR at least made some sense from a lore perspective (and they explained they didn't actually think it all the way through in reality, but hey this are the kind of mistakes that go full-circle and end up alright).
Per person, invested players spend far more than most walk in newbie youngsters who also dabble in Big box store products. For Hasbro the customer base they are used to dealing with is the new and uninvested youngster, while wizards of the coast originally catered to a niche market of players that were part of the pop cap / card collecting socializing types. Out of the two the latter became the core of what keeps this game alive at all, but the company has made so many mistakes on supporting this group that it is also murdering the formers growth.
Ultimately Wizards doesn't want to deal with their problems. Given the last few years they rather ignore them and just let the issue die off somehow, but because of the wondrous power of the internet that strategy has backfired spectacularly and eroded peoples confidence in the company, which came to a head last year when everyone got so sure wizards would not reprint anything they went and bought up everything in a frenzy. I'm just praying to the heavens they are going to spread the reprints into normally priced boxes, work as many as they can through standard to get their prices dropped, and stop their attack on the people who are actually keeping this game alive.
I mean seriously, who do they think spends the biggest dollar amount here? The guy walking in doing draft on set release, or the person who is buying all those singles on the secondary market and making the singles market actually function? Without that singles market, the game would just die because the creativity of this design team is paltry compared to what has been done by other games now.
You're not wrong about invested players spending more money per person and propping up the singles/secondary market, which creates demand for the primary product, but at the end of the day two major factors is why WotC doesn't really care about "stabbing" these players.
1) Like how the Secondary Market props the primary product, the money invested players spend pretty much channel through primary product buyers (which consists of mainly LGS, the big-online-retailers and the in-and-out fab crowds). Sure, without the invested players, the primary buyers have less incentive and the system would slowly decay and collapse, but at the same time, without the those channels, the secondary market invested players can't put their money in either.
Here's the biggest catch - I know we all would "If WotC made boosters better it would make me (aka invested players) be a primary product purchaser as well, isn't it better than the relying on the "in-and-out fab" crowds)... and the answer is actually, not really. This stems from the second point I'm raising.
2) Invested players may not touch as much primary product, but they don't really leave the Secondary Market either, at least definitely not at the rate the "in-and-out fab crowd leave". Our threats are basically put, empty, because they don't account us for much in sales in the very first place, and we would not actually leave the market that's propping up their actual customers. As long as we are still buying singles, the primary market will still function and guess what, in reality we have never successfully crippled the Secondary market on our own - everything only goes up, which means we actually wield no power, to put it bluntly.
WotC likes the fact that the primary market holds actual power over us. Keeping them alive keeps us alive because strictly speaking the only time we stop buying singles (as a general whole) is when a card reaches an insane point (be it due to a lack of supply or other insane reasons we as a playerbase tend to actually commit by ourselves)... and then when a reprint comes and prices drops... BAM... invested players continue to buy singles, which in turn props the primary market to continue risking packs for the Secondary Market.
Yes, bluntly put, it's basically exploiting one group to meet the needs of another. The two groups are very distinct despite our preference to mix them together just because we do buy pack on occasion, but WotC never wants the group to actually be as one, because that one group would hold way too much power than they would like. The minute somebody complains about the nature of booster pack system but still stays in the game/secondary market they technically fall into the other group instead, regardless of their actual primary product purchase history/frequency.
So, the only challenge is the maintaining the flow of purchase of primary products by the "in-and-out fab crowd" in order to keep these players "invested" slightly longer. While the later group does spend more per person, MTG is small enough to the general population out there that "good targeted marketing" can make the "in-and-out fab crowd" spend more in total instead, which in turn regulates the Secondary Market's interest to continue staying there. This basically explains why so much of their marketing efforts to put towards getting new players in, but seldom to sustain them in favor of turning them over for a fresher batch in a few years and almost none of them are for invested players, because people rarely actually leave the Secondary Market once they're in.
Well, there's what I believe their general strategy for the game (via Standard Boosters is). If my hypothesis is not wildly off, then Masters Series is basically the same system set-up, but replace "in-and-out fab crowd"/"new players" with "older uninvested players with disposable income to spare" and it's the exact same progress (except they know the replaced market is a whole lot smaller, hence the Limited runs). No product is actually targeted to people like us, who are invested enough to the point we are here for a decent amount of time. We are the "Secondary Market tool/incentive add-on" for their actual target demographics to buy-in, knowing they can cash out to us afterwards, the guarantee that even if you suffer a loss, at least you get something back.
Wizards never intended the modern format to become as expensive as it is. When they threw the support in for the format because people wanted something free of the reserved list, the entire thing caught them off guard and they made a ton of adjustments based on their fears of possibly repeating chronicles again. The reason modern is failing as a market is because instead of doing the right thing from the start (printing the modern cards in normal or slightly increased price boosters, such as modern masters 2013), they got skittish and instead opted to do the elite baseball card route with the reprints. However, instead of nurturing a format of collectibles as was probably intended, they ended up throwing fuel to the fire and kept having to reprint the same cards over and over even at mythic.
I don't think you understand how badly Wizards screwed up here. What happened is that they not only artificially kept the prices high on cards because of how they reprinted them, they also burned all the reprint equity they had for modern cards like Tarmogoyfat the same time. Nothing in modern can be invested in, which at its core is the feature that makes high end collectibles attractive, and players have been complaining about prices of staple cards for ages. Also, despite what people might see locally, this has resulted in plenty of invested players leaving the game over the past few years. Nobody else uses WOTCs reprint strategy because they all know the only reason this game is even alive is pure momentum and not strategic financial genius.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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Average? Compared to what? Certainly not prior Masters sets, which it is clearly better than.
Spirits
Going by card values where they are RIGHT NOW, random packs of Ultimate Master break even on average (exceeding value if you get a box for $260 or less). I've done the math on the average value of rares alone and going through a few dozen sample drafts on Draftmagic (looking at the bots to see the full contents of the 24 packs) indicates that sort of positive value.
When the set comes out and prices of cards like Phrexian Altar, Gaddock Teeg, Back to Basics, Noble Hierarch, and Phyrexian Tower each fall $10-20, however, it will be far less likely (but still possible) to get good value through packs. While this set isn't good for pack-cracking, however, the simple fact that it makes these cards more affordable (and that it passes a number of decent cards into pauper/peasant formats) seems to make the set a net good for the MTG community.
Like other people, I wish that I wish that this value could be passed on to cards with few reprints (those more likely to have these price falls) like Oubliette. I also wish that high-value commons and uncommons (whose values are unlikely to drop much, raising the actual value of packs) like Fatal Push or Sensei's Divining Top were included. In the end, however, I am left wanting more of a good thing rather than cursing an actively terrible thing... which isn't a bad place to be.
Why does MSRP matter when nobody is paying MSRP?
How is this set average, when it contains more value reprints than any other set ever made?
What set is better, in terms of value, than this?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Heh, yes MSRP is not going to matter to the consumer in the end... thing is the price of the product will speak for itself when the dust settles
I think this set is oki, its pricey but its better than previous. And it has many expensive cards at rare, which should knock down prices somewhat. I think its a win so far. I am not really sure why there is alot of toxity. And i agree that alot of people say they understand ev or card equity, but then argue like they don't. I guess they are trying to talk up or down prices. But i don't really care either way i am just going to take the opportunity to pick what i want, and maybe a box if it so tickles my fancy. It is really just a card game afterall. Chill ppl.
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Short version is it's a trend across all subjects, fandoms, politics, personal beliefs, etc., and has been exploded due to growths in social media and immediate-response "news." The trend is no longer to think and analyze something, but to prioritize "first impressions" and circulate those as much as possible as soon as possible for anything and everything. So whatever the initial gut-reaction is to anything, it is nearly immediately blown wildly out of proportion due to social media feedback loops. As a teacher (and within 2 weeks, parent), I have probably spent way too much time learning and familiarizing myself with the psychological effects of social media and immediate gratification. This is just one of many things where someone isn't happy about one tiny aspect (even though everything else is spectacular) and that then snowballs into the hate and division we see in nearly every element of every part of life these days.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
MMA > MM17 > EMA > MM15 = A25 > free boxes of IMA > dog feces on my shoe > paying money for IMA
IMO, if this set was at the $10 price point of the past sets since MMA, we would be talking about it lagging just a little behind the original for the best Masters set ever.
With the price increase, I think it will end up placing a little ahead or a little behind Eternal Masters, depending on where prices settle in 6 months.
Yes it feels about ema, honestly... i was'nt really impressed by mma, but i did like ema.
@cmfusion
Wow thats an explanation i guess
Reality is but a perception of your being --
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
I appreciate this set as I appreciate every Masters set - a few nice reprints for picking up singles of, awesome new art, and prices dipping enough to encourage me to maybe buy a set of cards if I feel the need.
But I have been moving away from competitive MTG and into casual commander domain, which is really the draw to these sets. As a competitive player, they never really appealed to me outside of maybe picking up some new art for some cards in my deck.
Fortunately the Box Toppers are really my only draw to UMA and that is where my money will go - not to packs or even normal singles.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
The vitriol is not without reason, and reducing it to "people are being toxic because the internet is toxic" is a bit disingenuous, even if this is an easily observable trend.
Here, people are reacting with excessive cynicism and vitriol, but the core complaint of lottery packs is very true. However, most of the people making this argument are really just annoyed that they're being priced out of a product that is mostly designed to be opened by stores.
The packs are a trap, and we know it, and complain about it. Just don't fall for the trap. A sad person opens a UMA pack with Seismic Assault. A happy person orders it at less than half the price of previous printings.
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UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I’m also seeing a lot of “Sure there are nice reprints, but they aren’t the reprints that I WANTED!”
Hmmm i dunno maybe its cos i am really happy to see fauna shaman, and noble hierarch at rare, so even if i do not get packs i will still target singles, thats a win no? Oh and engineered explosives 0.0
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
People are going to ignore this, because they would rather complain, but if anyone looks at that graph and still thinks this is 'average'? lol
Spirits
Yeah, never mind the fact that it has more cards of value in every price block than every other set, other than tying for the most $5-10 cards with MMA... And the $20-50 block is more than twice that of the next highest (MMA), and 3.6x the average number in that block across all the other Masters sets...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This is the only masters set that I plan to buy a pack or two, since there's not too much chaff in the packs compared to previous sets. This might bite me back when I open a talrand or seismic assault, but that's just the part of gambling.
And some new art like Vengeful Rebirth is just really nice to look at.
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This does bring up a question I have about the art. Bitterblossom, Offalsnout, Safehold Elite, Glen Elendra Archmage, and Slippery Bogle all got new art and I wanted to know if new art like this comes from commissions or is it just run off from other sets?
Art CAN be reused or re-purposed (most famously Alpha's Birds of Paradise was originally a Volcanic Island), but usually big names get specifically commissioned for art on a particular card.
As a side note, did we ever figure out what the "Definitely not Dig Through Time" art ended up being? There are no blue cards with that art, and I don't think I saw ANY card with that art...? It's the face of the box, but not in the set?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I’ve said this before, but I expect this set to have a very similar trajectory to Eternal Masters. Many cards will go down and stay down for a while, but the multiple format staples and EDH all-stars will rebound a year from now, and in two years (barring more reprints) some of them will be as much or more than they were a month ago.
The cards that will see a huge drop and stay there are the cards that are not widely played or are legal in only one format, and their value was propped up only by scarcity (think Karakas, Natural Order, Baleful Strix from EMA).
When the price was set $100 more than other sets initially I'm going to take that to heart. Much like how MM2 increased the price for no reason this here gets reduced marks for that. I'm not going to ignore a choice they made just because someone out there is going to get a shiny full art Karn. To ignore something stupid would be even more moronic than the initial decision. People not paying that price doesn't make that bad decision go away.
It matters when they made the decision in the first place, but sure lets ignore that because you can get a shiny Lavaclaw for an extra $40. Ooo, be still my beating wallet.
It's average thanks to the $14 price tag and I'm going to consider it at that always as that's the price they put it at to begin with. The fact no one wants to buy this at that price shows the idiocy from the start. This is a terrible prodcut at the price they had it at, it only starts looking average when you drop it down $100 a box. They intended this set at $14 and it isn't there, and that's why it's average.
Any set that doesn't have $10-$14 boosters. Crazy, I know.
Oh come off this "everyone complains, no one is happy" bull you're pushing. Sorry, but when something has flaws I'm going to point them out because if I am to pay money for something I want it as good as possible and don't feel like getting $2 worth of cards for $10. I'm not going to sit there wide eyed with hope and wonder that I could get $150 worth of cards from one pack. That's a pipe dream and nothing more. It's far more likely you open pure junk and wasted your money.
Like I said before, if you want to spend $10 to get a $1 rare then be my guest. I can't control your poor money choices. I'll stick to living in reality knowing that everything isn't sunshine and rainbows and it's far more likely to get the shaft than something good.
Thanks for the info. I understand the Bitter Blossom art and the artist is a big name, but why commission the Safehold Elite new art? The art is definitely Lorwyn/Shadowmor flavor, but I don't see WOTC paying for new common rarity art. So maybe it is unused art from a future set?
Still kinda cool they got Jesper Ejsing who's debut was in Lorwyn to come and do some new art for old Lorwyn and Shadowmor cards.
You're not wrong about invested players spending more money per person and propping up the singles/secondary market, which creates demand for the primary product, but at the end of the day two major factors is why WotC doesn't really care about "stabbing" these players.
1) Like how the Secondary Market props the primary product, the money invested players spend pretty much channel through primary product buyers (which consists of mainly LGS, the big-online-retailers and the in-and-out fab crowds). Sure, without the invested players, the primary buyers have less incentive and the system would slowly decay and collapse, but at the same time, without the those channels, the secondary market invested players can't put their money in either.
Here's the biggest catch - I know we all would "If WotC made boosters better it would make me (aka invested players) be a primary product purchaser as well, isn't it better than the relying on the "in-and-out fab" crowds)... and the answer is actually, not really. This stems from the second point I'm raising.
2) Invested players may not touch as much primary product, but they don't really leave the Secondary Market either, at least definitely not at the rate the "in-and-out fab crowd leave". Our threats are basically put, empty, because they don't account us for much in sales in the very first place, and we would not actually leave the market that's propping up their actual customers. As long as we are still buying singles, the primary market will still function and guess what, in reality we have never successfully crippled the Secondary market on our own - everything only goes up, which means we actually wield no power, to put it bluntly.
WotC likes the fact that the primary market holds actual power over us. Keeping them alive keeps us alive because strictly speaking the only time we stop buying singles (as a general whole) is when a card reaches an insane point (be it due to a lack of supply or other insane reasons we as a playerbase tend to actually commit by ourselves)... and then when a reprint comes and prices drops... BAM... invested players continue to buy singles, which in turn props the primary market to continue risking packs for the Secondary Market.
Yes, bluntly put, it's basically exploiting one group to meet the needs of another. The two groups are very distinct despite our preference to mix them together just because we do buy pack on occasion, but WotC never wants the group to actually be as one, because that one group would hold way too much power than they would like. The minute somebody complains about the nature of booster pack system but still stays in the game/secondary market they technically fall into the other group instead, regardless of their actual primary product purchase history/frequency.
So, the only challenge is the maintaining the flow of purchase of primary products by the "in-and-out fab crowd" in order to keep these players "invested" slightly longer. While the later group does spend more per person, MTG is small enough to the general population out there that "good targeted marketing" can make the "in-and-out fab crowd" spend more in total instead, which in turn regulates the Secondary Market's interest to continue staying there. This basically explains why so much of their marketing efforts to put towards getting new players in, but seldom to sustain them in favor of turning them over for a fresher batch in a few years and almost none of them are for invested players, because people rarely actually leave the Secondary Market once they're in.
Well, there's what I believe their general strategy for the game (via Standard Boosters is). If my hypothesis is not wildly off, then Masters Series is basically the same system set-up, but replace "in-and-out fab crowd"/"new players" with "older uninvested players with disposable income to spare" and it's the exact same progress (except they know the replaced market is a whole lot smaller, hence the Limited runs). No product is actually targeted to people like us, who are invested enough to the point we are here for a decent amount of time. We are the "Secondary Market tool/incentive add-on" for their actual target demographics to buy-in, knowing they can cash out to us afterwards, the guarantee that even if you suffer a loss, at least you get something back.
Hey, looks like you were right!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Actually I think it's more of unused art they determined won't be used for a future set, hence their willingness to use it here (A return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor doesn't look favorable on the Rabiah Scale). Older sets tend to have extra unused art then modern ones (partially due them generally pining down their design guides more efficiently from the get-go) but even they're not immune to it now (there's a reason we call this the "Ixalan Masterpiece Masters" and those are obviously considered unused art even if Ixalan wasn't too long ago.)
But for all we know, it could always be the art director's whim (maybe they had the budget, maybe he liked the card, maybe he felt chaff commons didn't have enough representation in new art across... maybe a combination of all of them) and it's actually new art. Even if they gave us an insight article it'll probably be art direction given out and the sketches, I mean "we kept this for years" doesn't exactly make for needed information (besides the fact we're nosey and don't mind knowing extra).
Reminder it's in the same set as Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and oh boy from Cube experience I can tell you how annoying an unkillable 2/2 can be if you didn't draw into the right answers.
The Dig Through Time one seems awfully silly though. If they blindsided us by not having Dig (which no one will miss) or putting it on Preordain instead it's understandable, but it's just plain silly to use it only as box art (I mean even if they change their mind in the future, the damage is already done since we are aware the art exists). Lazav/Dimir Guy from GoR at least made some sense from a lore perspective (and they explained they didn't actually think it all the way through in reality, but hey this are the kind of mistakes that go full-circle and end up alright).
Wizards never intended the modern format to become as expensive as it is. When they threw the support in for the format because people wanted something free of the reserved list, the entire thing caught them off guard and they made a ton of adjustments based on their fears of possibly repeating chronicles again. The reason modern is failing as a market is because instead of doing the right thing from the start (printing the modern cards in normal or slightly increased price boosters, such as modern masters 2013), they got skittish and instead opted to do the elite baseball card route with the reprints. However, instead of nurturing a format of collectibles as was probably intended, they ended up throwing fuel to the fire and kept having to reprint the same cards over and over even at mythic.
I don't think you understand how badly Wizards screwed up here. What happened is that they not only artificially kept the prices high on cards because of how they reprinted them, they also burned all the reprint equity they had for modern cards like Tarmogoyf at the same time. Nothing in modern can be invested in, which at its core is the feature that makes high end collectibles attractive, and players have been complaining about prices of staple cards for ages. Also, despite what people might see locally, this has resulted in plenty of invested players leaving the game over the past few years. Nobody else uses WOTCs reprint strategy because they all know the only reason this game is even alive is pure momentum and not strategic financial genius.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!