May I ask from where the dwarf ideas come from when it comes to cold nothern countries?
It should be the opposite since nothern people are taller than any other part of the world.
I understand games, fantasy and Wizards of the Coast should not follow real world realism but I still have to ask: From where does the idea of dwarves are from the north comes from?
I'm not sure, but I think a lot of dwarfes in fantasy worlds tend to have a slightly viking-esque look with big helmets and shields (because they are strong), axes or hammers, very gritty and masculine personalities, long beards, fur/leather and so on, often in wild/rocky environments. Take the guy in LotR for example. Then people got them muddled up. Just my theory. It sure doesn't make any sense culturally/historically.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
May I ask from where the dwarf ideas come from when it comes to cold nothern countries?
It should be the opposite since nothern people are taller than any other part of the world.
I understand games, fantasy and Wizards of the Coast should not follow real world realism but I still have to ask: From where does the idea of dwarves are from the north comes from?
We get dwarves from Tolkien who got them from Norse mythology.
Dwarves are the inhabitants of Svartalvheim, one of the nine realms in Norse cosmology. They are usually described as low, wicked, ugly, and cunning, but as the most skilled craftsmen in all the realms. Among other things, dwarves crafted Mjolnir, Thor's hammer, as well as Gungir, the spear of Odin, and my favorite, Skidbladnir: a ship which could traverse any water, but could be folded up small enough to fit into anyone's pocket. In one important story, the dwarf Andvari guards the greatest treasure in all the realms, but it is taken by the gods and cursed by Andvari. The subsequent story of Sigurd forms the baseline of a lot of our cultural understanding of dragons, magic swords, and treasures, and even includes a Sleeping Beauty story. In another story, when the god Baldr dies and can't be brought back, Thor kicks a dwarf named Litr into Baldr's funeral pyre for what seems to be no reason whatsoever. Nice funeral etiquette, Thor.
From the texts I've read, I haven't seen much that suggests the dwarves as being particularly smaller than anyone else beyond a description as "low", but that is certainly the tradition. There is little doubt that we get our concept of dwarves as short, stout, bearded axe-wielders by way of Tolkien. Elves are also found in Norse mythology, and Tolkien is again largely responsible for the current high-fantasy interpretation of them, which Mtg and D&D use, and which again is drawn from their representation in Norse Mythology. It's an over-simplification, but a lot of this stuff flows directly through Snorri Sturluson to JRR Tolkien to Gary Gygax to us. Thanks, Snorri.
Look up the Poets' Mead, or one of the dwarf-made items I listed if you want to learn more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People should really get over the horned helmets thing. It's pretty well known to be a misconception that they were ever worn, so leaving them out isn't really going to be educational in any way. Have them or don't, it makes little difference. What IS found in the texts is winged helmets. Not that you can compete with Kjeldoran Elite Guard.
Also, why are people suggesting the Pirate subtype for vikings? Piracy is the targeting of trade routes and the transportation of goods, whereas vikings targeted standing towns and abbeys. We can argue over semantics if we like, but more importantly, the label of "pirate" would clash with the image of vikings. Just use "Berserker".
i guess that's a joke, because your profile pic is pulling a silly face.
thankfully, the mtg-verse isn't related in any way to the actual-for-realsies-verse we live in - it's an artistic creation, occasionally inspired by the more exciting or interesting bits of our own cultures or whatever. accuracy isn't a thing
norse mythology and cultures are a bit of a goldmine. let's see if any of this rumour turns out to be true, and how, if at all, they use the vikings as an interesting nucleation point for fantasy shenanigans.
it was totally a joke. i never expected people to take it that seriously, lol
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Warriors and Berserkers, I can see. Pirates, not so much. I'd rather Viking get its own creature type, since Vikings as a concept are very resonant, much like how Ninjas and Pirates are distinct from common Rogues. Come to think of it though, the set should also have Shaman and Berserker tribal, as those are distinct classes with roots in Scandinavian culture.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Warriors and Berserkers, I can see. Pirates, not so much. I'd rather Viking get its own creature type, since Vikings as a concept are very resonant, much like how Ninjas and Pirates are distinct from common Rogues. Come to think of it though, the set should also have Shaman and Berserker tribal, as those are distinct classes with roots in Scandinavian culture.
I think the test should be: Is it absolutely necessary to create a new creature type? Will the creature type be able to show up in other sets? Will the lack of the creature type harm the product?
Pirates and Dinosaurs can show up anywhere.
Ninjas and Vikings are very, very specific and make little sense on other planes. Ninja has a whole heck of a lot of baggage that comes with it, which cannot be easily distilled into Rogue/Assassin/Spy. Kamigawa would also have felt very off without the Ninja or Samurai subtypes. They are iconic and necessary to latching onto the tone and feel for a Japanese-inspired setting.
Viking is... Very iconic but I do not know if its essence cannot be represented by Berserker, Warrior, Pirate, etc.
Having said that, they did bring Mummy and Werewolf back after removing them and we are not likely to get much mileage out of those creature types outside of their native planes.
Having said that, they did bring Mummy and Werewolf back after removing them and we are not likely to get much mileage out of those creature types outside of their native planes.
Mummies as a type didn't get brought back. They were absorbed into the zombie creature type, alongside every other kind of undead other than spirits, skeletons, and vampires.
I think the test should be: Is it absolutely necessary to create a new creature type? Will the creature type be able to show up in other sets? Will the lack of the creature type harm the product?
Pirates and Dinosaurs can show up anywhere.
Ninjas and Vikings are very, very specific and make little sense on other planes. Ninja has a whole heck of a lot of baggage that comes with it, which cannot be easily distilled into Rogue/Assassin/Spy. Kamigawa would also have felt very off without the Ninja or Samurai subtypes. They are iconic and necessary to latching onto the tone and feel for a Japanese-inspired setting.
Viking is... Very iconic but I do not know if its essence cannot be represented by Berserker, Warrior, Pirate, etc.
You have a point there. I could settle for Warrior and Shaman tribal in a Viking set, with Raid returning as the Viking mechanic. Perhaps this time Raid could be BRG? Or even all five colors?
Having said that, they did bring Mummy and Werewolf back after removing them and we are not likely to get much mileage out of those creature types outside of their native planes.
Mummies as a type didn't get brought back. They were absorbed into the zombie creature type, alongside every other kind of undead other than spirits, skeletons, and vampires.
Don't forget Shade. ; )
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Not a fan of Norse mythology, but if there's ever been a plane that should have snow, it should be this. That said, I'd rather see a Return to Theros first - although I wouldn't be surprised if we had a gods or legends matter theme on the Norse set and followed it up with Theros, or vice versa. Ideally while Dominaria is legal.
Yes that is why I said stereotypical. The stereotype is the Barbarian which most closely matches Berserker, but also Pirates and Warriors.
... I don't recognise that stereotype at all. I'm wondering how you came to think of it that way.
Maybe it's do to with your geography. Where are you from? In my country, we are close enough to the old Norse territories that we were invaded by them in the distant past. As such, our stereotypes of their culture are probably more true-to-life... But i have to say, i've not come across the idea of them being as straightforward as barbarians and pirates. Warlike and expansionist, perhaps.
Considering that Viking refers to an ethnicity, I don't think it would make any sense to have Viking as a creature type, there were Viking soldiers, priests, engineers, prostitutes, etc. I do think that on a Norse-themed set Berserkers should not be integrated into Barbarians. I'm not entirely sure we'd have a Norse-themed new plane either, the Ice Age block is very Norse influenced (Valkyries, guys named Hans or Arcum Dagsson etc), so a return to Terisiare would be the perfect moment to have a Viking set.
Having said that, they did bring Mummy and Werewolf back after removing them and we are not likely to get much mileage out of those creature types outside of their native planes.
Mummies as a type didn't get brought back. They were absorbed into the zombie creature type, alongside every other kind of undead other than spirits, skeletons, and vampires.
Oh right, they just named things Mummy and did not return the creature type. Drat! We did get Werewolf back but, then again, that could theoretically show up on other planes (far more than Mummy would have).
Side note, I always found it weird that they kept skeletons around. I know in D&D Skeletons and Zombies are different but, I mean, so are Ghouls, Wights and Mummies. To me, Skeletons should just be subsumed into Zombie, or Zombies re-branded as Undead. Skeletons just seem super unnecessary and half baked compared to all the love and attention that has been showered on Zombies.
Yeah, but it looks cool It's already been discussed a lot in this thread, but I don't mind at all if reality gets a little bent to keep the horns in a fantasy game with giant beasts and ***** like that hehe.
Also, as a Dane, I'd only be mad if they didn't make the vikings look cool hehe.
On a different note, how awesome would full art snow lands be?? Damn I hope that happens!
What's more, if we're being analytical of 'snow permanent' as a mechanic: it wasn't used particularly effectively compared to how embedded into the flavour and set a mechanic tends to be in contemporary sets.
So, if we were to see a return of 'snow' as a mechanic, it would seem an easy prediction to suggest that they'd do an awful lot more with that blank canvas this time round and really make it reflect the flavour.
In terms of impact, that's going to have much wider reach than reprinting some basic lands you can already get (albeit in a prettier way)
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I'd say the seafaring aspect of norse culture from that time may be a more prominent feature to draw on, in terms of designing a 'viking inspired' magic set or block. Greek mythology has much reference to seafaring as well, but maybe it's not such a difining characteristic. Maybe who knows. We don't even know if the source here is credible yet.
I'm just gonna bow out now and wait to see if we get an announcement a few months down the line. We can't achieve anything meaningful here by speculating, apart from maybe arguing over whether scrying sheets will become modern playable.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Other possible ideas: Vikings were very much about dying in battle with your wounds to the fore to ensure a place in Valhalla, and their mythology was very fatalistic. Maybe a death(-in-combat?) trigger mechanic?
Also, Viking ahieldwall waa definitely a thing historically, if not popular-culturally.
Plenty of monsters and superstitions that translate into enchantments/auras (wyrd as an aura subtheme. Could also work as aforementioned death trigger.).
Plenty of magical items for an equipment subtheme, and of course they were consummate sailors (but then, the Greeks were no slouch there, and that was almost completely omitted from Theros), so ships could also see a return.
There's no doubt there's a wealth of stuff in Viking lore that translates to mechanics very well. Enough design space for several sets, if not blocks IMO.
And Sagas! It's far enough from Dominaria to be influenced by its feedback, right?
What's more, if we're being analytical of 'snow permanent' as a mechanic: it wasn't used particularly effectively compared to how embedded into the flavour and set a mechanic tends to be in contemporary sets.
So, if we were to see a return of 'snow' as a mechanic, it would seem an easy prediction to suggest that they'd do an awful lot more with that blank canvas this time round and really make it reflect the flavour.
In terms of impact, that's going to have much wider reach than reprinting some basic lands you can already get (albeit in a prettier way)
They could do it like the Amonkhet block lands where they're just basic lands, but the artwork is in the set's style. So make all the lands snowy but just basic lands.
Amonkhet had the desert sub theme in the land base. Some of them were pretty good. Could maybe do it like that again, by having some uncommon utility lands that had the "snow" theme going, but then keeping the basics basic but with snowy artwork.
Just thinking out loud. I just think full art snow lands would be cool as ****!
I think it would be cool if they included flip cards for creatures that achieve a deed worthy of a saga. So they start off as a pretty normal creature, then when they complete a great deed, they flip over to a legendary creature with cool abilities.
So like:
Hilda the Dreamer
Creature - Warrior
Hilda the Dreamer must be blocked if able. Whenever Hilda the Dreamer deals combat damage to a player, you may put a myth counter on it. At the beginning of the end step, if there are three or more myth counters on Hilda the Dreamer, you may flip it.
1/2
Hilda the Valkyrie
Legendary Creature - Warrior Angel
Flying
Warrior creatures you control get +1/+1 and have Intimidate. Whenever a nontoken creature dies, create a 1/1 white Spirit Warrior creature token.
3/3
Yes that is why I said stereotypical. The stereotype is the Barbarian which most closely matches Berserker, but also Pirates and Warriors.
... I don't recognise that stereotype at all. I'm wondering how you came to think of it that way.
Maybe it's do to with your geography. Where are you from? In my country, we are close enough to the old Norse territories that we were invaded by them in the distant past. As such, our stereotypes of their culture are probably more true-to-life... But i have to say, i've not come across the idea of them being as straightforward as barbarians and pirates. Warlike and expansionist, perhaps.
I am from the USA. The viking stereotype is basically the stereotypical DnD Barbarian. Pointed Helmet, Plenty of skin showing, angry, swinging double weapons or a big two hander likely an axe but a sword or mace is acceptable not likely to use a shield.
Basically the Ninja or Monk is far more distinct from say the Rogue then Viking is from Beserker or Warrior.
As for Pirates usually you think ship to ship combat whereas with the Vikings yeah they take the long boat to get to the target but the actual raiding is land based with the ship as transport.
Pirate would not necessarily need to be used as Ixalan will have rotated out of Standard by the time the Norse set comes out. They could use the word Raider instead, which would be a better fit than Pirate.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
We get dwarves from Tolkien who got them from Norse mythology.
Dwarves are the inhabitants of Svartalvheim, one of the nine realms in Norse cosmology. They are usually described as low, wicked, ugly, and cunning, but as the most skilled craftsmen in all the realms. Among other things, dwarves crafted Mjolnir, Thor's hammer, as well as Gungir, the spear of Odin, and my favorite, Skidbladnir: a ship which could traverse any water, but could be folded up small enough to fit into anyone's pocket. In one important story, the dwarf Andvari guards the greatest treasure in all the realms, but it is taken by the gods and cursed by Andvari. The subsequent story of Sigurd forms the baseline of a lot of our cultural understanding of dragons, magic swords, and treasures, and even includes a Sleeping Beauty story. In another story, when the god Baldr dies and can't be brought back, Thor kicks a dwarf named Litr into Baldr's funeral pyre for what seems to be no reason whatsoever. Nice funeral etiquette, Thor.
From the texts I've read, I haven't seen much that suggests the dwarves as being particularly smaller than anyone else beyond a description as "low", but that is certainly the tradition. There is little doubt that we get our concept of dwarves as short, stout, bearded axe-wielders by way of Tolkien. Elves are also found in Norse mythology, and Tolkien is again largely responsible for the current high-fantasy interpretation of them, which Mtg and D&D use, and which again is drawn from their representation in Norse Mythology. It's an over-simplification, but a lot of this stuff flows directly through Snorri Sturluson to JRR Tolkien to Gary Gygax to us. Thanks, Snorri.
Look up the Poets' Mead, or one of the dwarf-made items I listed if you want to learn more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People should really get over the horned helmets thing. It's pretty well known to be a misconception that they were ever worn, so leaving them out isn't really going to be educational in any way. Have them or don't, it makes little difference. What IS found in the texts is winged helmets. Not that you can compete with Kjeldoran Elite Guard.
Also, why are people suggesting the Pirate subtype for vikings? Piracy is the targeting of trade routes and the transportation of goods, whereas vikings targeted standing towns and abbeys. We can argue over semantics if we like, but more importantly, the label of "pirate" would clash with the image of vikings. Just use "Berserker".
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
it was totally a joke. i never expected people to take it that seriously, lol
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
This means Angrath might feature prominently.
We will likely get Snow back as a mechanic.
Dwarves will be prominent. As will Elves.
I imagine Vikings will not receive their own unique subtype, and instead will be a mix of Warriors, Berserkers and Pirates.
Gods will probably return.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I think the test should be: Is it absolutely necessary to create a new creature type? Will the creature type be able to show up in other sets? Will the lack of the creature type harm the product?
Pirates and Dinosaurs can show up anywhere.
Ninjas and Vikings are very, very specific and make little sense on other planes. Ninja has a whole heck of a lot of baggage that comes with it, which cannot be easily distilled into Rogue/Assassin/Spy. Kamigawa would also have felt very off without the Ninja or Samurai subtypes. They are iconic and necessary to latching onto the tone and feel for a Japanese-inspired setting.
Viking is... Very iconic but I do not know if its essence cannot be represented by Berserker, Warrior, Pirate, etc.
Having said that, they did bring Mummy and Werewolf back after removing them and we are not likely to get much mileage out of those creature types outside of their native planes.
Mummies as a type didn't get brought back. They were absorbed into the zombie creature type, alongside every other kind of undead other than spirits, skeletons, and vampires.
You have a point there. I could settle for Warrior and Shaman tribal in a Viking set, with Raid returning as the Viking mechanic. Perhaps this time Raid could be BRG? Or even all five colors?
Don't forget Shade. ; )
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Unless you are Spanish.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Vikings bathed regularly and had a sense of personal hygiene.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
... I don't recognise that stereotype at all. I'm wondering how you came to think of it that way.
Maybe it's do to with your geography. Where are you from? In my country, we are close enough to the old Norse territories that we were invaded by them in the distant past. As such, our stereotypes of their culture are probably more true-to-life... But i have to say, i've not come across the idea of them being as straightforward as barbarians and pirates. Warlike and expansionist, perhaps.
Oh right, they just named things Mummy and did not return the creature type. Drat! We did get Werewolf back but, then again, that could theoretically show up on other planes (far more than Mummy would have).
Side note, I always found it weird that they kept skeletons around. I know in D&D Skeletons and Zombies are different but, I mean, so are Ghouls, Wights and Mummies. To me, Skeletons should just be subsumed into Zombie, or Zombies re-branded as Undead. Skeletons just seem super unnecessary and half baked compared to all the love and attention that has been showered on Zombies.
Yeah, but it looks cool It's already been discussed a lot in this thread, but I don't mind at all if reality gets a little bent to keep the horns in a fantasy game with giant beasts and ***** like that hehe.
Also, as a Dane, I'd only be mad if they didn't make the vikings look cool hehe.
On a different note, how awesome would full art snow lands be?? Damn I hope that happens!
What's more, if we're being analytical of 'snow permanent' as a mechanic: it wasn't used particularly effectively compared to how embedded into the flavour and set a mechanic tends to be in contemporary sets.
So, if we were to see a return of 'snow' as a mechanic, it would seem an easy prediction to suggest that they'd do an awful lot more with that blank canvas this time round and really make it reflect the flavour.
In terms of impact, that's going to have much wider reach than reprinting some basic lands you can already get (albeit in a prettier way)
I'm just gonna bow out now and wait to see if we get an announcement a few months down the line. We can't achieve anything meaningful here by speculating, apart from maybe arguing over whether scrying sheets will become modern playable.
And Sagas! It's far enough from Dominaria to be influenced by its feedback, right?
They could do it like the Amonkhet block lands where they're just basic lands, but the artwork is in the set's style. So make all the lands snowy but just basic lands.
Amonkhet had the desert sub theme in the land base. Some of them were pretty good. Could maybe do it like that again, by having some uncommon utility lands that had the "snow" theme going, but then keeping the basics basic but with snowy artwork.
Just thinking out loud. I just think full art snow lands would be cool as ****!
So like:
Hilda the Dreamer
Creature - Warrior
Hilda the Dreamer must be blocked if able. Whenever Hilda the Dreamer deals combat damage to a player, you may put a myth counter on it. At the beginning of the end step, if there are three or more myth counters on Hilda the Dreamer, you may flip it.
1/2
Hilda the Valkyrie
Legendary Creature - Warrior Angel
Flying
Warrior creatures you control get +1/+1 and have Intimidate. Whenever a nontoken creature dies, create a 1/1 white Spirit Warrior creature token.
3/3
I am from the USA. The viking stereotype is basically the stereotypical DnD Barbarian. Pointed Helmet, Plenty of skin showing, angry, swinging double weapons or a big two hander likely an axe but a sword or mace is acceptable not likely to use a shield.
Basically the Ninja or Monk is far more distinct from say the Rogue then Viking is from Beserker or Warrior.
As for Pirates usually you think ship to ship combat whereas with the Vikings yeah they take the long boat to get to the target but the actual raiding is land based with the ship as transport.