And you realize that most standard sets have next to no noticeable reprints, right? Sorry, I don't care if Crucible is now $10, just like I didn't care when my Onslaught allied fetchlands went from $70+ to $10. More people being able to afford the game and play is not a bad thing.
Oh no my piece of cardboard is now closer to the price of cardboard! The horror!
by Crashing the value of cards you disenfranchise current players , you remove value they have invested in and can no longer recover to buy other magic product, cause lets be honest thats what happens with most card value it gets re invested in other magic product normally . so while "timmy stay six months" can now afford a crucible of worlds, " stan 10 years" just lost 50 bucks . if you get "timmy 6 months" to invest 50 to 60 in a crucible he is much more likely to hang around longer than 6 months and become an enfranchised player . This is a hobby, a Mid grade expenses hobby , in the same price range as fire arms collecting, paint ball, carpentry, mid level cycling or entry lvl golfing ... but its not for poor people, they honestly can not afford to play this game in any way , they are not the target audience , wizards wants middle class parents moneys and gen X'ers with real jobs money , and the best way to do that is push limited, and keep the secondary market high and flushed with value . The investment Mentality is what wizards wants , thats the part that keeps people buying. Look the collectible is crucial in the life of this game , if you kill that you kill the game , stores wont carry it and run tournaments if they cant make money off it , and currently that's a pretty tight margin on sealed product , and the cardboard is near the the price of cardboard arguement is such a logical fallacy and a strawman its not funny . do you say the same about TV's of different quality , or Cars, US currency ( all printed on the same linen with the same inks). Things made in similar ways with similar materials can and do have vastly different values .
And you realize that most standard sets have next to no noticeable reprints, right? Sorry, I don't care if Crucible is now $10, just like I didn't care when my Onslaught allied fetchlands went from $70+ to $10. More people being able to afford the game and play is not a bad thing.
Oh no my piece of cardboard is now closer to the price of cardboard! The horror!
by Crashing value of card you disenfranchise current players , you remove value they have invested in and can no longer recover to buy other magic product, cause lets be honest thats what happens with most card value it gets re invested in other magic product normally . so while "timmy stay six months" can now afford a crucible of worlds, " stan 10 years" just lost 50 bucks . if you get "timmy 6 months" to invest 50 to 60 in a crucible he is much more likely to hang around longer than 6 months and become an enfranchised player . This is a hobby, a Mid grade expenses hobby , in the same price range as fire arms collecting, paint ball, carpentry, mid level cycling or entry lvl golfing ... but its not for poor people, they honestly can not afford to play this game in any way , they are not the target audience , wizards wants middle class parents moneys and gen X'ers with real jobs money , and the best way to do that is push limited, and keep the secondary market high and flushed with value . The investment Mentality is what wizards wants , thats the part that keeps people buying. Look the collectible is crucial in the life of this game , if you kill that you kill the game , stores wont carry it and run tournaments if they cant make money off it , and currently that's a pretty tight margin on sealed product , and the cardboard is near the the price of cardboard arguement is such a logical fallacy and a strawman its not funny . do you say the same about TV's of different quality , or Cars, US currency ( all printed on the same linen with the same inks). Things made in similar ways with similar materials can and do have vastly different values .
Magic, with respect to non-reserved list cards, is not an investment.
[quote from="Dontrike »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/800876-ultimate-masters-box-topper-promos-psa-regarding?comment=630"]
by Crashing the value of cards you disenfranchise current players , you remove value they have invested in and can no longer recover to buy other magic product, cause lets be honest thats what happens with most card value it gets re invested in other magic product normally . so while "timmy stay six months" can now afford a crucible of worlds, " stan 10 years" just lost 50 bucks . if you get "timmy 6 months" to invest 50 to 60 in a crucible he is much more likely to hang around longer than 6 months and become an enfranchised player . This is a hobby, a Mid grade expenses hobby , in the same price range as fire arms collecting, paint ball, carpentry, mid level cycling or entry lvl golfing ... but its not for poor people, they honestly can not afford to play this game in any way , they are not the target audience , wizards wants middle class parents moneys and gen X'ers with real jobs money , and the best way to do that is push limited, and keep the secondary market high and flushed with value . The investment Mentality is what wizards wants , thats the part that keeps people buying. Look the collectible is crucial in the life of this game , if you kill that you kill the game , stores wont carry it and run tournaments if they cant make money off it , and currently that's a pretty tight margin on sealed product , and the cardboard is near the the price of cardboard arguement is such a logical fallacy and a strawman its not funny . do you say the same about TV's of different quality , or Cars, US currency ( all printed on the same linen with the same inks). Things made in similar ways with similar materials can and do have vastly different values .
So... wow. Lots of assumptions here.
To start, your assessment of the "Stan 10 years" isn't universal by any stretch. I have been playing the same for 13 years and I have sold exactly one card (a Foil Tibalt, on the night of the Avacyn Restored prerelease). I have no illusions about getting back my "investment". I pay my money so that I can play the game with the cards I want to use. That customized gameplay is the service I receive for my money and I don't expect to be reimbursed at the door any more than I expect to trade in my used ticket stub for a refund at the theater (and I will get more mileage out of a good single than I will from a few movie showings).
For another, the damage of reprints is kind of overstated. Crashing value with reprints is unlikely to harm the standard player who trades or sells the older section of their collection on a regular basis (unless Wizards seriously drops the ball and reprints recent cards on a huge scale). Crashing value with reprints is also unlikely to harm legacy/vintage players who are sick of one deck and are trading into another deck (as most of the super expensive cards are reprint-proof due to the RL). The only groups "hurt" by this are:
1. Modern players
2. Commander players
3. Pure/Heavy investors
4. Retiring players looking to sell out
With that said, I always hear a lot more hype than disappointment and anger on these boards when we get good commander reprints (back to basics & phyrexian altar got a lot more approval than disapproval on their spoiler threads) and I'm not sure why Wizards would be expected to cater to the wishes of someone wishing to sell off their collection as 1) they are ceasing to be a customer and 2) they are ceasing their consumption in a way that makes it harder for them to return later on.
Magic, with respect to non-reserved list cards, is not an investment.
any input of liquid capital, in to a non liquid asset is an investment , that is what it actually means . non- RL cards are much riskier cause of wizards ability to reprint them but it is still an investment by definition . IN manufacturing you invest in equipment you know from day one that will depreciate in value because it will generate more income in the long run from the product it makes, even though it loses value you are still investing in it.
Regarding investment as a definition: (from investopedia)
Investments and Speculation
Speculation is a separate activity from making an investment. Investing involves the purchase of assets with the intent of holding them for the long term, while speculation involves attempting to capitalize on market inefficiencies for short-term profit. Ownership is generally not a goal of speculators, while investors often look to build the number of assets in their portfolios over time.
Although speculators are often making informed decisions, speculation cannot usually be categorized as traditional investing. Speculation is generally considered higher risk than traditional investing, though this can vary depending on the type of investment involved.
So no Magic: The Gathering is not an investment.
Can someone explain to me why enfranchised PLAYERS (People who play the game because they like it, they like its mechanics, its playstyle, the interaction, the community etc.) will leave the game if WotC reprinted aggressively expensive cards? Don't try to persuade me that enfranchised players are the same as enfranchised ''mtg investors'' (LMAO) or pure scalpers, i just don't buy it. People who like to play the game, will keep playing the game with lower prices. I am not so sure about the opposite.
I see people making comparisons with YuGiOh and I genuinely want someone to explain me this: the only reason YuGiOh players leaving the game is that there are aggressive reprintss ONLY? How is that even possible? You mean that Joe Cardplayer really enjoyed playing and interacting in YuGiOh games and after seeing that his favorite cards were even cheaper he thought "**** it man, cards are so cheap, this game sucks now" ? Really?
As for the Chronicles debacle, this happened aeons ago, internet was nonexistent, the market was different and the game was not so popular. Using Chronicles is a weak argument imo.
So, vandertroll, not to put a pin in your username or anything, but you give a quote about how investors want to own and grow their assets and then turn around and say Magic cards aren't an investment. Does this mean you believe nobody who plays magic wants to own and grow their collections? Players want to feel proud of their collections and want their collection to grow in value over time (either by buying more cards, or from the cards themselves gaining value over time). They want to keep this collection though, so they are not spectating by your definitions (although speculators do exist). Of course, as with any collectible, to keep and grow a collection sometimes individual cards or smaller collections may be sold in order to make new purchases, or investments. The intention to sell is not necessary to the act of investing.
... but its not for poor people, they honestly can not afford to play this game in any way
Speaking as an enfranchised, long-term player, I make minimum wage in a restaurant. No, I don't buy products like Ultimate Masters that I can't afford, and I don't even get to draft very often, but I and a lot of other poor folks I know play and enjoy Magic. A lot of them are teenagers. Also, I owned two copies of Crucible of Worlds before the reprint. I was never planning on selling them, so I was delighted to see the value tank. Crucible is a great card, and I want it readily available. I had cut it from my cube for being too valuable (something I could never replace if it was damaged), but now I can put it back in.
I say tank 'em all. Give UMA an unlimited print run, and drop it to $6 a pack. I'd actually buy some then. Hell, I'd even be able to draft it once. I'd rejoice to see Ancient Tomb at $2. Sure, I've got a copy, but I don't have four, and it doesn't help me for it to be prohibitively expensive. If they printed Reserve List Masters ad nauseam, and the ABUR duals went to $10 apiece, I could actually play legacy eventually, and I wouldn't remotely lament the devaluation of my one Savannah. Suddenly legacy wouldn't be a shriveled, dying format for rich folks. Not everyone is like me, but it's a pretty large percentage of the player base that wants to see values drop across the board.
So, vandertroll, not to put a pin in your username or anything, but you give a quote about how investors want to own and grow their assets and then turn around and say Magic cards aren't an investment. Does this mean you believe nobody who plays magic wants to own and grow their collections? Players want to feel proud of their collections and want their collection to grow in value over time (either by buying more cards, or from the cards themselves gaining value over time). They want to keep this collection though, so they are not spectating by your definitions (although speculators do exist). Of course, as with any collectible, to keep and grow a collection sometimes individual cards or smaller collections may be sold in order to make new purchases, or investments. The intention to sell is not necessary to the act of investing.
I am not trolling at all, I do not consider owning collectible cards, or comics, as an ''asset'' in the economic/investing sense. Also I don't think that being proud of your collection = your collection is very expensive . I don't deny that monetary value is important to some, but is there enough evidence that those people are the majority of customers / the majority of the community? I am very doubtful about that. If MtG was not so good mechanically, lore-wise, community - wise, its cards wouldn't have such an (inflated) value.
Can someone explain to me why enfranchised PLAYERS (People who play the game because they like it, they like its mechanics, its playstyle, the interaction, the community etc.) will leave the game if WotC reprinted aggressively expensive cards? Don't try to persuade me that enfranchised players are the same as enfranchised ''mtg investors'' (LMAO) or pure scalpers, i just don't buy it. People who like to play the game, will keep playing the game with lower prices. I am not so sure about the opposite.
I think this isn't the point to look at. Wizards print and reprint policy should look the way to maximize their profit at long term, this is what a company do. This means that they need to find a balance between give players what they want to keep and grow that base, but without undervaluating their product, that would reduce their gain.
No one want a Iconic Masters 25 again, but another MM1 don't bring a real benefit for them. You can say this, with a large supply, would be a success as a best seller, but players will always want more. After that release, this standard is not good enought anymore. Each time they give "too much", their are lowering their product value, they'll need to add more and more value for a lower price.
Those horrendous Balenciaga sneakers could cost $20, the brand would make tons of money in the day they decrease the price, but whats happens after a year?
In the end, "what players want" is not mandatory for the health of the company.
Most of the hobbies I choose to spend money on are ones which hold value. If I need to liquidate them quickly, I can get most of (or all, or sometimes even more than) what I paid for them. Magic stuff, photography stuff, gun stuff, car stuff. It's all expensive, but they all hold value and can be sold back in case of need. So the costs of buying are easily justified, so long as the value can (mostly) be held.
Speaking as an enfranchised, long-term player, I make minimum wage in a restaurant. No, I don't buy products like Ultimate Masters that I can't afford, and I don't even get to draft very often, but I and a lot of other poor folks I know play and enjoy Magic. A lot of them are teenagers. Also, I owned two copies of Crucible of Worlds before the reprint. I was never planning on selling them, so I was delighted to see the value tank. Crucible is a great card, and I want it readily available. I had cut it from my cube for being too valuable (something I could never replace if it was damaged), but now I can put it back in.
I say tank 'em all. Give UMA an unlimited print run, and drop it to $6 a pack. I'd actually buy some then. Hell, I'd even be able to draft it once. I'd rejoice to see Ancient Tomb at $2. Sure, I've got a copy, but I don't have four, and it doesn't help me for it to be prohibitively expensive. If they printed Reserve List Masters ad nauseam, and the ABUR duals went to $10 apiece, I could actually play legacy eventually, and I wouldn't remotely lament the devaluation of my one Savannah. Suddenly legacy wouldn't be a shriveled, dying format for rich folks. Not everyone is like me, but it's a pretty large percentage of the player base that wants to see values drop across the board.
you are not wizards target audience at all. Wizards wants someone drafting a couple times a week and playing standard /modern/ commander/ legacy once a week in that order, . you dont care about value because you don't really have any value, its easy to say screw it when you dont have skin in the game . lets go back to crucible for a bit . say your average LGS had 4 in stock when m19 hit in that month following that store took a 174 dollar loss on those cards , your average LGS is running a couple hundred black or red, 174 bucks is the difference normally between making a profit or a loss. . Lets go with the big boys Star City , i would say they most likely had about 1000 of them in inventory , thats a 43000 grand loss in one month, even they most likely have a hard time swallowing that pill.
If the LGS goes out of business you loss your local tourny scene, if star city games goes out of business you loss the opens and most likely GP's ( they aren't running them now but most people aren't happy with channel fireball way of running them). If you dont care about that you are either playing at home at the kitchen table ( and should have little to no say) or you dont realize the value the LGS is giving in providing you a place to play commander .
Vandertroll the fact stores sell these things as products makes them assets , inventory is assets, just because you don't consider them financial assets dosen't mean they aren't . I have unloaded unneeded cards or unwanted cards before to pay my mortgage and medical bills, both RL and non RL cards in the most recent case I made almost 300% ROI in less than a year on them, collectiables secondary market is a real thing, and it gives stupid stuff stupid values for as long as people want it .
Most of the hobbies I choose to spend money on are ones which hold value. If I need to liquidate them quickly, I can get most of (or all, or sometimes even more than) what I paid for them. Magic stuff, photography stuff, gun stuff, car stuff. It's all expensive, but they all hold value and can be sold back in case of need. So the costs of buying are easily justified, so long as the value can (mostly) be held.
This i really don't understand having a hobby you can't liquidate and get a good portion of your money back , Magic, guns... both will normally ROI out into the positive . Hell before I blew out my back I use to cycle and your not getting a good money roi on any sports hobby, but i was also getting health benefits so it was acceptable .
you dont care about value because you don't really have any value, its easy to say screw it when you dont have skin in the game.
My collection is worth at least a few thousand dollars, and I've been building it for many years. It may seem paltry to someone like yourself, but to a poor person, it is not insignificant to own cards worth as much or more than a paycheck. I don't sell cards because I want to keep my collection, and there's no way I could possibly get it back, but it's still skin in the game.
You may be right that Wizards doesn't care about poor people. Poor people are extremely used to that. Nevertheless, I don't see what difference that makes. Every player cares about card prices.
Your point that massive devaluation is bad for stores is a fair one. Rural game stores are almost universally struggling, and huge tanks across the board could have serious negative consequences for sellers, which hurts the game as a whole. Nevertheless, you have to recognize that the high value of cards is hugely negative to the game, and reasonable devaluation is hugely positive.
If the LGS goes out of business you loss your local tourny scene, if star city games goes out of business you loss the opens and most likely GP's ( they aren't running them now but most people aren't happy with channel fireball way of running them). If you dont care about that you are either playing at home at the kitchen table ( and should have little to no say) or you dont realize the value the LGS is giving in providing you a place to play commander .
Why do kitchen table players have no say? I think you greatly underestimate the casual scene. Casual-only is a large group, if not the largest. Not everyone who plays kitchen table is mashing together one or two precons or playing out of a shoe-box of commons, either. I'd argue the majority of Magic's big spenders never even so much as go to a FNM. Lots of big groups out there, people bringing 20+ decks to play, not all jank either. This is WOTC's target audience. It's not someone doing a $15 draft and a $5 FNM every week running the same deck for 4 months without changing it beyond a few bucks here and there. And it's not some boogieman investor who is squirreling cards away for a ROI in 10 years, there aren't enough of those sharks in the ocean.
In all honesty, and I'm guilty of this too... this is a lot of people making A LOT of assumptions about what Magic is and isn't based on their limited view.
If the LGS goes out of business you loss your local tourny scene, if star city games goes out of business you loss the opens and most likely GP's ( they aren't running them now but most people aren't happy with channel fireball way of running them). If you dont care about that you are either playing at home at the kitchen table ( and should have little to no say) or you dont realize the value the LGS is giving in providing you a place to play commander .
Why do kitchen table players have no say? I think you greatly underestimate the casual scene. Casual-only is a large group, if not the largest. Not everyone who plays kitchen table is mashing together one or two precons or playing out of a shoe-box of commons, either. I'd argue the majority of Magic's big spenders never even so much as go to a FNM. Lots of big groups out there, people bringing 20+ decks to play, not all jank either. This is WOTC's target audience. It's not someone doing a $15 draft and a $5 FNM every week running the same deck for 4 months without changing it beyond a few bucks here and there. And it's not some boogieman investor who is squirreling cards away for a ROI in 10 years, there aren't enough of those sharks in the ocean.
In all honesty, and I'm guilty of this too... this is a lot of people making A LOT of assumptions about what Magic is and isn't based on their limited view.
As someone in the industry for a good bit of time , kitchen table guys don’t spend much at all a few boosters here maybe a single there , but the kitchen table guy buying boxes is mostly a myth . The guys who I make money off of are my FnM regulars that draft weekly , or the guy who plays commander twice a week , or my modern/ standard players. The kitchen table player in general is buying his product from a big box store not the LGS . While kitchen table players might make up the bulk of the numbers wizards quotes they are not where a majority of the money for single sellers and LGS come from. One of two things happen with kitchen tables guys happen , one of the group shows up to the store and buys a planeswalker . Two weeks later the rest of his group has either quite or they come in and buy a 5 dollar planeswalker and that’s the last I see of them normally .
you dont care about value because you don't really have any value, its easy to say screw it when you dont have skin in the game.
My collection is worth at least a few thousand dollars, and I've been building it for many years. It may seem paltry to someone like yourself, but to a poor person, it is not insignificant to own cards worth as much or more than a paycheck. I don't sell cards because I want to keep my collection, and there's no way I could possibly get it back, but it's still skin in the game.
You may be right that Wizards doesn't care about poor people. Poor people are extremely used to that. Nevertheless, I don't see what difference that makes. Every player cares about card prices.
Your point that massive devaluation is bad for stores is a fair one. Rural game stores are almost universally struggling, and huge tanks across the board could have serious negative consequences for sellers, which hurts the game as a whole. Nevertheless, you have to recognize that the high value of cards is hugely negative to the game, and reasonable devaluation is hugely positive.
I do want to comment that I agree with most of the points Mergatroid_Jones makes. I do believe there is a limit to devaluation (dropping cards from $100 or higher to $5 overnight is not good) but a steady decline has all kinds of benefits. Most of which is that players can play more decks or play more often (or, in some cases, play at all). Lower prices creates potentially higher attendance. That higher attendance then raises the prices back up again. It is somewhat cyclical in this regard. I think there is a balance to how much Wizards can print before they start doing more harm than good, but I don't think they have actually gotten to those numbers yet.
In any case, I don't think someone's opinion on the desire for overall card prices to go down should be tied to their collection's value. That is a narrow way of looking at things. In case it does still matter though: my collection's value is in the 6 digits and I would be all for that value going down if it meant more people could play the game.
you dont care about value because you don't really have any value, its easy to say screw it when you dont have skin in the game.
My collection is worth at least a few thousand dollars, and I've been building it for many years. It may seem paltry to someone like yourself, but to a poor person, it is not insignificant to own cards worth as much or more than a paycheck. I don't sell cards because I want to keep my collection, and there's no way I could possibly get it back, but it's still skin in the game.
You may be right that Wizards doesn't care about poor people. Poor people are extremely used to that. Nevertheless, I don't see what difference that makes. Every player cares about card prices.
Your point that massive devaluation is bad for stores is a fair one. Rural game stores are almost universally struggling, and huge tanks across the board could have serious negative consequences for sellers, which hurts the game as a whole. Nevertheless, you have to recognize that the high value of cards is hugely negative to the game, and reasonable devaluation is hugely positive.
I do want to comment that I agree with most of the points Mergatroid_Jones makes. I do believe there is a limit to devaluation (dropping cards from $100 or higher to $5 overnight is not good) but a steady decline has all kinds of benefits. Most of which is that players can play more decks or play more often (or, in some cases, play at all). Lower prices creates potentially higher attendance. That higher attendance then raises the prices back up again. It is somewhat cyclical in this regard. I think there is a balance to how much Wizards can print before they start doing more harm than good, but I don't think they have actually gotten to those numbers yet.
In any case, I don't think someone's opinion on the desire for overall card prices to go down should be tied to their collection's value. That is a narrow way of looking at things. In case it does still matter though: my collection's value is in the 6 digits and I would be all for that value going down if it meant more people could play the game.
One funny point about this devaluation topic. I own two Shadowmoor boxes, with the reprint of Runed Halo, Fulminator Mage, Woodfall Primus, Kitchen Finks, Mistveil Plains and Devoted Druid, I was expecting a hard hit in those boxes value. But they didn't reprinted Manamorphose. Right, now, just because of that card spike, the EV of those boxes is bigger than it was before. Sure Manamorphose will drop, as the reprinted cards, but in the end, after a year, prices aren't lowering at all with the current reprint policy. I would prefer to buy new cards for a lower price than sell mine of a higher one (well, I don't sell either, but I trade). But anyone saying "reprint Tarmogoyff until it cost $1", really don't know what he's want.
Your point that massive devaluation is bad for stores is a fair one. Rural game stores are almost universally struggling, and huge tanks across the board could have serious negative consequences for sellers, which hurts the game as a whole. Nevertheless, you have to recognize that the high value of cards is hugely negative to the game, and reasonable devaluation is hugely positive.
I do want to comment that I agree with most of the points Mergatroid_Jones makes. I do believe there is a limit to devaluation (dropping cards from $100 or higher to $5 overnight is not good) but a steady decline has all kinds of benefits. Most of which is that players can play more decks or play more often (or, in some cases, play at all). Lower prices creates potentially higher attendance. That higher attendance then raises the prices back up again. It is somewhat cyclical in this regard. I think there is a balance to how much Wizards can print before they start doing more harm than good, but I don't think they have actually gotten to those numbers yet.
In any case, I don't think someone's opinion on the desire for overall card prices to go down should be tied to their collection's value. That is a narrow way of looking at things. In case it does still matter though: my collection's value is in the 6 digits and I would be all for that value going down if it meant more people could play the game.
OK time for a lesson on card value, margins,supply and demand, and why higher prices are better for the longevity of the game .
OK going back to my favorite card in the world crucible of worlds, before the reprint it was 55 bucks my cost on these was 30 bucks each on average, I would on average have 2 on hand each week . i would sell one a week ( on average) and make 25 bucks on that sale ( note this is not profit, this is income). I now have about 7 or 8 on hand at 13 each , my cost is 8 bucks each on average . to make the same 25 dollars i have to sell 5 of these a week , I am averaging 2. so im making 10 dollars in income . I still have the same overhead, demand has doubled for the card but the high supply means I'm not making what I was with the lower demand lower supply card , margins are higher on more expensive cards.
Higher prices mean higher margins, higher margins means more liquid capital , more liquid capital means i can buy more sealed product and singles to sell. by buying more sealed product wizards stays in business and keeps making sets. its why wizards wants high priced cards, it why they stroke and caress the secondary market instead of just pounding it to death and making everything a dollar . Higher priced cards provide more liquid capital that wizards sucks up as its income .
High priced, low demand cards provide better margins for stores , you would not have single sales with out them because there is not really money in 5 buck cards you have to move too many of them in too short of time to make it worth the hassle. without single sellers and LGS you have no constructed scene since no one can reliable get singles, and it dosen't matter since you also kill the LGS and tourney scene anyway since they relies on single sales.
Look this is a business , all of magic is a business, yeah there is a game in that mess, but in general there are 3-4 groups of people trying to make money off it before a card even touches your hand fresh from the pack . and wizards cares a lot more about what they are doing than what the player is doing because wizards customer is the distributor ( alliance, ACD, Amazon) single sellers,big box stores, and LGS. that's who wizards makes their money from . They listen to the players only as long as it keeps those people in liquid capital to give to wizards. So there is no real incentive for wizards to lower prices because its bad for half their cash flow and has no effect on the other half .
This not to say wizards ignores the players, they have to make a product that sells, but its going to be game design , art, a formats, and type of sealed product ( not whats in it) that players really get a say in that's about it
I admit that my views are skewed by the fact that I am not a US-resident and in my country the LGS don't sell much singles since we all buy from magiccardmarket which operates differently than major sites like TCG etc. Everyone raises very interesting and valid points but still i think that since we don't have enough evidence about "the average mtg player" we can't reach to a minor common conclusion. Another question is, at which point the growth of prices hinders the growth of the player base? Any thoughts on that?
I admit that my views are skewed by the fact that I am not a US-resident and in my country the LGS don't sell much singles since we all buy from magiccardmarket which operates differently than major sites like TCG etc. Everyone raises very interesting and valid points but still i think that since we don't have enough evidence about "the average mtg player" we can't reach to a minor common conclusion. Another question is, at which point the growth of prices hinders the growth of the player base? Any thoughts on that?
Honestly, that probably depends on a number of factors. Some players insist on playing certain colors and strategies and might bail if playing midrange or playing blue will cost them an arm and a leg, even if there is an inexpensive alternative. Some potential new players might not want to buy into the transience of draft/standard (even if prices are reasonable) and only see the price tag on eternal formats before walking away from the table.
The biggest two factors that I can think of at the moment are the differences in price and win percentages between the cheapest and most expensive competitive decks.
In a vacuum, these two metrics might indicate how accessible/frustrating the game is to those with limited budgets. Is there a wide price range of competitive decks or are most of them similarly expensive? Does using the cheap check cut your win percentage in half or just lower it by a couple of points?
you are not wizards target audience at all. Wizards wants someone drafting a couple times a week and playing standard /modern/ commander/ legacy once a week in that order, . you dont care about value because you don't really have any value, its easy to say screw it when you dont have skin in the game . lets go back to crucible for a bit . say your average LGS had 4 in stock when m19 hit in that month following that store took a 174 dollar loss on those cards , your average LGS is running a couple hundred black or red, 174 bucks is the difference normally between making a profit or a loss.
That $174 is on paper and unrealized until it is sold. If the card is too expensive, it will sit in their inventory and produce no revenue for them.
These days, if a LGS relies only on cards/sealed produce as revenue while their other costs rise (rent, etc.), that business would eventually go bankrupt. I see more and more LGSes turning into gaming cafes rather than just sell product. I think it's perfectly viable to sell product at a smaller profit margin as a driver to come to the store and buy other things or sit down and game and buy food.
That $174 is on paper and unrealized until it is sold. If the card is too expensive, it will sit in their inventory and produce no revenue for them.
These days, if a LGS relies only on cards/sealed produce as revenue while their other costs rise (rent, etc.), that business would eventually go bankrupt. I see more and more LGSes turning into gaming cafes rather than just sell product. I think it's perfectly viable to sell product at a smaller profit margin as a driver to come to the store and buy other things or sit down and game and buy food.
the real loss is 100 dollars because the store most likely was in them 30 bucks each, guess what inventory cost money, they can now only pull 13 max out of those items so they are a loss. Crucible were reliable sellers, i averaged 1 selling a week and kept 2 on hand at 55 each, now i sell 2 a week at 13 each, the card wasn't to expensive it didn't sit around. most stores are not total reliant on singles sales and sealed product , but its still a large part of the deal, saying other wise is disingenuous, also read my later post where i went into numbers about higher cost lower demand being better for stores due to margins . Sealed product is under grocery store margins now , if your not aware grocery stores work on about a 5% margin , there is no money in sealed product thanks to E bay and amazon. The ebay guys are literally selling product at 2 bucks over cost normally after shipping. Honestly the best thing Wizards has done for the LGS guys is remove the restrictions on Booze at sanctioned events, there is honest to god real money in slinging pints and shots, not really much in slinging spells. But this also really depends in what state you live in , In south carolina its great i can have 14 years olds in a bar after dark as long as im serving food , so it wouldnt even be touching either cash stream, but some states have age limits and time limits on kids and booze. I hate to say it but i make more profit on my snack and drink sales than i do my none limited sealed product sales . more income from sealed product but margins man .
That $174 is on paper and unrealized until it is sold. If the card is too expensive, it will sit in their inventory and produce no revenue for them.
These days, if a LGS relies only on cards/sealed produce as revenue while their other costs rise (rent, etc.), that business would eventually go bankrupt. I see more and more LGSes turning into gaming cafes rather than just sell product. I think it's perfectly viable to sell product at a smaller profit margin as a driver to come to the store and buy other things or sit down and game and buy food.
the real loss is 100 dollars because the store most likely was in them 30 bucks each, guess what inventory cost money, they can now only pull 13 max out of those items so they are a loss. Crucible were reliable sellers, i averaged 1 selling a week and kept 2 on hand at 55 each, now i sell 2 a week at 13 each, the card wasn't to expensive it didn't sit around. most stores are not total reliant on singles sales and sealed product , but its still a large part of the deal, saying other wise is disingenuous, also read my later post where i went into numbers about higher cost lower demand being better for stores due to margins . Sealed product is under grocery store margins now , if your not aware grocery stores work on about a 5% margin , there is no money in sealed product thanks to E bay and amazon. The ebay guys are literally selling product at 2 bucks over cost normally after shipping. Honestly the best thing Wizards has done for the LGS guys is remove the restrictions on Booze at sanctioned events, there is honest to god real money in slinging pints and shots, not really much in slinging spells. But this also really depends in what state you live in , In south carolina its great i can have 14 years olds in a bar after dark as long as im serving food , so it wouldnt even be touching either cash stream, but some states have age limits and time limits on kids and booze. I hate to say it but i make more profit on my snack and drink sales than i do my none limited sealed product sales . more income from sealed product but margins man .
If a reprint caused the card price to drop then the previous price was too expensive. Price was only high due to scarcity and not because of play reason.
Simple as that.
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If a reprint caused the card price to drop then the previous price was too expensive. Price was only high due to scarcity and not because of play reason.
Simple as that.
no not that simple, scarcity is a valid reason for a high price, people were buying them at 55 so the law of supply and demand says they were not priced too high it says they were perfectly priced actually. what we have now is an over supply of the card lowering the max potential of the cards margin . the demand for the card was 2 a week they printed enough to meet 10 +, this is why they really can't print good reprints in the mass overprinted standard sets because it just destroys any reprint equity the card has, chromatic lantern is a great example of this it was 20 bucks, now 3 bucks so bellow the value of the pack. what your seeing is what happened with Chronicles where they over printed beyond demand on a much smaller scale . Wizards really needs to go back to all sets having a timed print run and a cut off date, this allows for better control of numbers and supply of cards while allowing cards in new sets to acquire reprint equity . the current method of printing allows to many cards into the supply so nothing can gain value .
You do know that the value on Crucible is going to creep back up, right? If you REALLY want to make money on the card, put twenty of themin a box to sell in five years or so when the price has doubled again. Crucible didn't start out as a $55 card, and M19 won't be new forever.
You can gnash your teeth every time they reprint a valuable card, but do so in recognition that everybody else is celebrating. It sucks that small businesses struggle, and I'm all for helping out the LGS, but the idea that card values should only rise and never come back down to earth is unrealistic, and is anathema to the common player. Prices already run wild.
by Crashing the value of cards you disenfranchise current players , you remove value they have invested in and can no longer recover to buy other magic product, cause lets be honest thats what happens with most card value it gets re invested in other magic product normally . so while "timmy stay six months" can now afford a crucible of worlds, " stan 10 years" just lost 50 bucks . if you get "timmy 6 months" to invest 50 to 60 in a crucible he is much more likely to hang around longer than 6 months and become an enfranchised player . This is a hobby, a Mid grade expenses hobby , in the same price range as fire arms collecting, paint ball, carpentry, mid level cycling or entry lvl golfing ... but its not for poor people, they honestly can not afford to play this game in any way , they are not the target audience , wizards wants middle class parents moneys and gen X'ers with real jobs money , and the best way to do that is push limited, and keep the secondary market high and flushed with value . The investment Mentality is what wizards wants , thats the part that keeps people buying. Look the collectible is crucial in the life of this game , if you kill that you kill the game , stores wont carry it and run tournaments if they cant make money off it , and currently that's a pretty tight margin on sealed product , and the cardboard is near the the price of cardboard arguement is such a logical fallacy and a strawman its not funny . do you say the same about TV's of different quality , or Cars, US currency ( all printed on the same linen with the same inks). Things made in similar ways with similar materials can and do have vastly different values .
Magic, with respect to non-reserved list cards, is not an investment.
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So... wow. Lots of assumptions here.
To start, your assessment of the "Stan 10 years" isn't universal by any stretch. I have been playing the same for 13 years and I have sold exactly one card (a Foil Tibalt, on the night of the Avacyn Restored prerelease). I have no illusions about getting back my "investment". I pay my money so that I can play the game with the cards I want to use. That customized gameplay is the service I receive for my money and I don't expect to be reimbursed at the door any more than I expect to trade in my used ticket stub for a refund at the theater (and I will get more mileage out of a good single than I will from a few movie showings).
For another, the damage of reprints is kind of overstated. Crashing value with reprints is unlikely to harm the standard player who trades or sells the older section of their collection on a regular basis (unless Wizards seriously drops the ball and reprints recent cards on a huge scale). Crashing value with reprints is also unlikely to harm legacy/vintage players who are sick of one deck and are trading into another deck (as most of the super expensive cards are reprint-proof due to the RL). The only groups "hurt" by this are:
1. Modern players
2. Commander players
3. Pure/Heavy investors
4. Retiring players looking to sell out
With that said, I always hear a lot more hype than disappointment and anger on these boards when we get good commander reprints (back to basics & phyrexian altar got a lot more approval than disapproval on their spoiler threads) and I'm not sure why Wizards would be expected to cater to the wishes of someone wishing to sell off their collection as 1) they are ceasing to be a customer and 2) they are ceasing their consumption in a way that makes it harder for them to return later on.
any input of liquid capital, in to a non liquid asset is an investment , that is what it actually means . non- RL cards are much riskier cause of wizards ability to reprint them but it is still an investment by definition . IN manufacturing you invest in equipment you know from day one that will depreciate in value because it will generate more income in the long run from the product it makes, even though it loses value you are still investing in it.
Investments and Speculation
Speculation is a separate activity from making an investment. Investing involves the purchase of assets with the intent of holding them for the long term, while speculation involves attempting to capitalize on market inefficiencies for short-term profit. Ownership is generally not a goal of speculators, while investors often look to build the number of assets in their portfolios over time.
Although speculators are often making informed decisions, speculation cannot usually be categorized as traditional investing. Speculation is generally considered higher risk than traditional investing, though this can vary depending on the type of investment involved.
So no Magic: The Gathering is not an investment.
Can someone explain to me why enfranchised PLAYERS (People who play the game because they like it, they like its mechanics, its playstyle, the interaction, the community etc.) will leave the game if WotC reprinted aggressively expensive cards? Don't try to persuade me that enfranchised players are the same as enfranchised ''mtg investors'' (LMAO) or pure scalpers, i just don't buy it. People who like to play the game, will keep playing the game with lower prices. I am not so sure about the opposite.
I see people making comparisons with YuGiOh and I genuinely want someone to explain me this: the only reason YuGiOh players leaving the game is that there are aggressive reprintss ONLY? How is that even possible? You mean that Joe Cardplayer really enjoyed playing and interacting in YuGiOh games and after seeing that his favorite cards were even cheaper he thought "**** it man, cards are so cheap, this game sucks now" ? Really?
As for the Chronicles debacle, this happened aeons ago, internet was nonexistent, the market was different and the game was not so popular. Using Chronicles is a weak argument imo.
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Speaking as an enfranchised, long-term player, I make minimum wage in a restaurant. No, I don't buy products like Ultimate Masters that I can't afford, and I don't even get to draft very often, but I and a lot of other poor folks I know play and enjoy Magic. A lot of them are teenagers. Also, I owned two copies of Crucible of Worlds before the reprint. I was never planning on selling them, so I was delighted to see the value tank. Crucible is a great card, and I want it readily available. I had cut it from my cube for being too valuable (something I could never replace if it was damaged), but now I can put it back in.
I say tank 'em all. Give UMA an unlimited print run, and drop it to $6 a pack. I'd actually buy some then. Hell, I'd even be able to draft it once. I'd rejoice to see Ancient Tomb at $2. Sure, I've got a copy, but I don't have four, and it doesn't help me for it to be prohibitively expensive. If they printed Reserve List Masters ad nauseam, and the ABUR duals went to $10 apiece, I could actually play legacy eventually, and I wouldn't remotely lament the devaluation of my one Savannah. Suddenly legacy wouldn't be a shriveled, dying format for rich folks. Not everyone is like me, but it's a pretty large percentage of the player base that wants to see values drop across the board.
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I am not trolling at all, I do not consider owning collectible cards, or comics, as an ''asset'' in the economic/investing sense. Also I don't think that being proud of your collection = your collection is very expensive . I don't deny that monetary value is important to some, but is there enough evidence that those people are the majority of customers / the majority of the community? I am very doubtful about that. If MtG was not so good mechanically, lore-wise, community - wise, its cards wouldn't have such an (inflated) value.
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I think this isn't the point to look at. Wizards print and reprint policy should look the way to maximize their profit at long term, this is what a company do. This means that they need to find a balance between give players what they want to keep and grow that base, but without undervaluating their product, that would reduce their gain.
No one want a Iconic Masters 25 again, but another MM1 don't bring a real benefit for them. You can say this, with a large supply, would be a success as a best seller, but players will always want more. After that release, this standard is not good enought anymore. Each time they give "too much", their are lowering their product value, they'll need to add more and more value for a lower price.
Those horrendous Balenciaga sneakers could cost $20, the brand would make tons of money in the day they decrease the price, but whats happens after a year?
In the end, "what players want" is not mandatory for the health of the company.
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you are not wizards target audience at all. Wizards wants someone drafting a couple times a week and playing standard /modern/ commander/ legacy once a week in that order, . you dont care about value because you don't really have any value, its easy to say screw it when you dont have skin in the game . lets go back to crucible for a bit . say your average LGS had 4 in stock when m19 hit in that month following that store took a 174 dollar loss on those cards , your average LGS is running a couple hundred black or red, 174 bucks is the difference normally between making a profit or a loss. . Lets go with the big boys Star City , i would say they most likely had about 1000 of them in inventory , thats a 43000 grand loss in one month, even they most likely have a hard time swallowing that pill.
If the LGS goes out of business you loss your local tourny scene, if star city games goes out of business you loss the opens and most likely GP's ( they aren't running them now but most people aren't happy with channel fireball way of running them). If you dont care about that you are either playing at home at the kitchen table ( and should have little to no say) or you dont realize the value the LGS is giving in providing you a place to play commander .
Vandertroll the fact stores sell these things as products makes them assets , inventory is assets, just because you don't consider them financial assets dosen't mean they aren't . I have unloaded unneeded cards or unwanted cards before to pay my mortgage and medical bills, both RL and non RL cards in the most recent case I made almost 300% ROI in less than a year on them, collectiables secondary market is a real thing, and it gives stupid stuff stupid values for as long as people want it .
This i really don't understand having a hobby you can't liquidate and get a good portion of your money back , Magic, guns... both will normally ROI out into the positive . Hell before I blew out my back I use to cycle and your not getting a good money roi on any sports hobby, but i was also getting health benefits so it was acceptable .
My collection is worth at least a few thousand dollars, and I've been building it for many years. It may seem paltry to someone like yourself, but to a poor person, it is not insignificant to own cards worth as much or more than a paycheck. I don't sell cards because I want to keep my collection, and there's no way I could possibly get it back, but it's still skin in the game.
You may be right that Wizards doesn't care about poor people. Poor people are extremely used to that. Nevertheless, I don't see what difference that makes. Every player cares about card prices.
Your point that massive devaluation is bad for stores is a fair one. Rural game stores are almost universally struggling, and huge tanks across the board could have serious negative consequences for sellers, which hurts the game as a whole. Nevertheless, you have to recognize that the high value of cards is hugely negative to the game, and reasonable devaluation is hugely positive.
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Why do kitchen table players have no say? I think you greatly underestimate the casual scene. Casual-only is a large group, if not the largest. Not everyone who plays kitchen table is mashing together one or two precons or playing out of a shoe-box of commons, either. I'd argue the majority of Magic's big spenders never even so much as go to a FNM. Lots of big groups out there, people bringing 20+ decks to play, not all jank either. This is WOTC's target audience. It's not someone doing a $15 draft and a $5 FNM every week running the same deck for 4 months without changing it beyond a few bucks here and there. And it's not some boogieman investor who is squirreling cards away for a ROI in 10 years, there aren't enough of those sharks in the ocean.
In all honesty, and I'm guilty of this too... this is a lot of people making A LOT of assumptions about what Magic is and isn't based on their limited view.
As someone in the industry for a good bit of time , kitchen table guys don’t spend much at all a few boosters here maybe a single there , but the kitchen table guy buying boxes is mostly a myth . The guys who I make money off of are my FnM regulars that draft weekly , or the guy who plays commander twice a week , or my modern/ standard players. The kitchen table player in general is buying his product from a big box store not the LGS . While kitchen table players might make up the bulk of the numbers wizards quotes they are not where a majority of the money for single sellers and LGS come from. One of two things happen with kitchen tables guys happen , one of the group shows up to the store and buys a planeswalker . Two weeks later the rest of his group has either quite or they come in and buy a 5 dollar planeswalker and that’s the last I see of them normally .
In any case, I don't think someone's opinion on the desire for overall card prices to go down should be tied to their collection's value. That is a narrow way of looking at things. In case it does still matter though: my collection's value is in the 6 digits and I would be all for that value going down if it meant more people could play the game.
One funny point about this devaluation topic. I own two Shadowmoor boxes, with the reprint of Runed Halo, Fulminator Mage, Woodfall Primus, Kitchen Finks, Mistveil Plains and Devoted Druid, I was expecting a hard hit in those boxes value. But they didn't reprinted Manamorphose. Right, now, just because of that card spike, the EV of those boxes is bigger than it was before. Sure Manamorphose will drop, as the reprinted cards, but in the end, after a year, prices aren't lowering at all with the current reprint policy. I would prefer to buy new cards for a lower price than sell mine of a higher one (well, I don't sell either, but I trade). But anyone saying "reprint Tarmogoyff until it cost $1", really don't know what he's want.
OK time for a lesson on card value, margins,supply and demand, and why higher prices are better for the longevity of the game .
OK going back to my favorite card in the world crucible of worlds, before the reprint it was 55 bucks my cost on these was 30 bucks each on average, I would on average have 2 on hand each week . i would sell one a week ( on average) and make 25 bucks on that sale ( note this is not profit, this is income). I now have about 7 or 8 on hand at 13 each , my cost is 8 bucks each on average . to make the same 25 dollars i have to sell 5 of these a week , I am averaging 2. so im making 10 dollars in income . I still have the same overhead, demand has doubled for the card but the high supply means I'm not making what I was with the lower demand lower supply card , margins are higher on more expensive cards.
Higher prices mean higher margins, higher margins means more liquid capital , more liquid capital means i can buy more sealed product and singles to sell. by buying more sealed product wizards stays in business and keeps making sets. its why wizards wants high priced cards, it why they stroke and caress the secondary market instead of just pounding it to death and making everything a dollar . Higher priced cards provide more liquid capital that wizards sucks up as its income .
High priced, low demand cards provide better margins for stores , you would not have single sales with out them because there is not really money in 5 buck cards you have to move too many of them in too short of time to make it worth the hassle. without single sellers and LGS you have no constructed scene since no one can reliable get singles, and it dosen't matter since you also kill the LGS and tourney scene anyway since they relies on single sales.
Look this is a business , all of magic is a business, yeah there is a game in that mess, but in general there are 3-4 groups of people trying to make money off it before a card even touches your hand fresh from the pack . and wizards cares a lot more about what they are doing than what the player is doing because wizards customer is the distributor ( alliance, ACD, Amazon) single sellers,big box stores, and LGS. that's who wizards makes their money from . They listen to the players only as long as it keeps those people in liquid capital to give to wizards. So there is no real incentive for wizards to lower prices because its bad for half their cash flow and has no effect on the other half .
This not to say wizards ignores the players, they have to make a product that sells, but its going to be game design , art, a formats, and type of sealed product ( not whats in it) that players really get a say in that's about it
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Honestly, that probably depends on a number of factors. Some players insist on playing certain colors and strategies and might bail if playing midrange or playing blue will cost them an arm and a leg, even if there is an inexpensive alternative. Some potential new players might not want to buy into the transience of draft/standard (even if prices are reasonable) and only see the price tag on eternal formats before walking away from the table.
The biggest two factors that I can think of at the moment are the differences in price and win percentages between the cheapest and most expensive competitive decks.
In a vacuum, these two metrics might indicate how accessible/frustrating the game is to those with limited budgets. Is there a wide price range of competitive decks or are most of them similarly expensive? Does using the cheap check cut your win percentage in half or just lower it by a couple of points?
That $174 is on paper and unrealized until it is sold. If the card is too expensive, it will sit in their inventory and produce no revenue for them.
These days, if a LGS relies only on cards/sealed produce as revenue while their other costs rise (rent, etc.), that business would eventually go bankrupt. I see more and more LGSes turning into gaming cafes rather than just sell product. I think it's perfectly viable to sell product at a smaller profit margin as a driver to come to the store and buy other things or sit down and game and buy food.
the real loss is 100 dollars because the store most likely was in them 30 bucks each, guess what inventory cost money, they can now only pull 13 max out of those items so they are a loss. Crucible were reliable sellers, i averaged 1 selling a week and kept 2 on hand at 55 each, now i sell 2 a week at 13 each, the card wasn't to expensive it didn't sit around. most stores are not total reliant on singles sales and sealed product , but its still a large part of the deal, saying other wise is disingenuous, also read my later post where i went into numbers about higher cost lower demand being better for stores due to margins . Sealed product is under grocery store margins now , if your not aware grocery stores work on about a 5% margin , there is no money in sealed product thanks to E bay and amazon. The ebay guys are literally selling product at 2 bucks over cost normally after shipping. Honestly the best thing Wizards has done for the LGS guys is remove the restrictions on Booze at sanctioned events, there is honest to god real money in slinging pints and shots, not really much in slinging spells. But this also really depends in what state you live in , In south carolina its great i can have 14 years olds in a bar after dark as long as im serving food , so it wouldnt even be touching either cash stream, but some states have age limits and time limits on kids and booze. I hate to say it but i make more profit on my snack and drink sales than i do my none limited sealed product sales . more income from sealed product but margins man .
If a reprint caused the card price to drop then the previous price was too expensive. Price was only high due to scarcity and not because of play reason.
Simple as that.
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BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
no not that simple, scarcity is a valid reason for a high price, people were buying them at 55 so the law of supply and demand says they were not priced too high it says they were perfectly priced actually. what we have now is an over supply of the card lowering the max potential of the cards margin . the demand for the card was 2 a week they printed enough to meet 10 +, this is why they really can't print good reprints in the mass overprinted standard sets because it just destroys any reprint equity the card has, chromatic lantern is a great example of this it was 20 bucks, now 3 bucks so bellow the value of the pack. what your seeing is what happened with Chronicles where they over printed beyond demand on a much smaller scale . Wizards really needs to go back to all sets having a timed print run and a cut off date, this allows for better control of numbers and supply of cards while allowing cards in new sets to acquire reprint equity . the current method of printing allows to many cards into the supply so nothing can gain value .
You can gnash your teeth every time they reprint a valuable card, but do so in recognition that everybody else is celebrating. It sucks that small businesses struggle, and I'm all for helping out the LGS, but the idea that card values should only rise and never come back down to earth is unrealistic, and is anathema to the common player. Prices already run wild.
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