MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
This card is awful. Dies to removal and gets blocked all day by a Wall of Denial with a Flight slapped on it. If anyone opens these at the prerelease I'll happily take them off your hands.
(...seriously though, that art, JFC. Feels like it escaped from Shadows Over Innistrad.)
Well... that's kind of a bummer. I was really high on Demon of Catastrophes after rotation and then they go and print this guy. One extra mana to trade a downside into an upside. Seems legit.
Yawgmoth's Bargain but with an excellent body for cmc and self-mill instead of draw? Yes sir, give me 10 of those. I have too much graveyard based EDH decks that would love to abuse this.
I saw it as Ad Nauseam but without the synergy with Platinum Angel and friends (and considering the art is left over from the original Ravnica block, and is actually Dimir...) Either way, comparisons to one obviously broken card and one not really broken at the time but hella broken once Laboratory Maniac came out bode well for it in EDH.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
5 mana 6/6 flying/trample with a good upside, and monocolored. It doesn't even have triple B in it's cost or something like that. I miss the days where demons had downsides.
Kind of agree with this. Excited to see this card within the context of this standard and certain decks I want to build but within the context of the wider game, ever since the fiasco with rogue refiner, whirler virtuoso, Glorybringer, torrential gearhulk, the scarab god, rekindling phoenix and ravenous chupacabra, I realized how far creature creep has gone (and it's been heading this way for a while). Outside of draw/go control, playing a creature has gotten the closer and closer to being the best thing you can do each turn period unless you're doing something very specific because on top of what creatures do for you in stopping other creatures and being inherent win conditions and the most synergized-with typed maybe barring artifacts, more and more value and card advantage is tacked onto creatures as time goes on. Refer to my above list where every one either doesn't die to removal or makes it a bad trade to do so.
I'm not saying creatures should be bad, but should they consistently be good in this way? And with so little effort, drawback or cost? Do creatures like this not limit design space for sorcery speed actions in the game and push removal maybe a little too much?
This demon is just too much. I will be losing to it constantly in our casual circle. My buddies Demon deck is already ridiculous and now this with no downside. Wow. The way he draws Ill probably see it before my first turn thanks to a double dark ritual. I may have to start using CoP:Black
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
Make sure you get at least 9 black creatures into your graveyard and you can spend 2WWW to essentially double your life total from when you started the Surveil train.
Also,
+ / .
You'd also need actually hit the Ancestral Tribute during the Surveil train, but in Commander if your life total is something like 36, then that's 36 cards deep. Plus with the Ancestor's Chosen plan as well, you can lengthen this process easily.
Doom Whisperer + The Gitrog Monster will make a janky ass but super fun combo deck. Basically mill your entire library, using Nourishing Shoal on Worldspine Wurms to replenish your life (and leaving the unnecessary ones to prevent milling yourself), and you win by... get back to you on that one later.
I paid zero attention to Doom Whisperer at first after seeing the effect, cause I just kinda went "yeah that's decent and all, I guess if I pull it that's great," then someone pointed out that it was "broken" and I went back to it and
like, I'm not sure if it's "broken," but a 6/6 flying trampler for 5 is pretty damn pushed even without the other ability, especially since I think black is still third place in creature quality? Anyway, this guy's pretty beefy on top of a great ability. Maybe I should crack packs for this guy.
Doom Whisperer + Lich's Mastery = pay 2 life: surveil 2...but because you paid 2 life you lost life, therefore you must now exile 2 cards from among cards in your hand, permanents on the battlefield, or cards in your graveyard. Once you hit 0 life you can't lose but you can't pay 2 life to surveil any more, either. There is no benefit here...unless you are thinking Death's Shadow or some other plan which involves getting to 0 life.
To maximize the demon's effectiveness you need to find an inexpensive (and ideally permanent) way to give it lifelink
Doom Whisperer + Lich's Mastery = pay 2 life: surveil 2...but because you paid 2 life you lost life, therefore you must now exile 2 cards from among cards in your hand, permanents on the battlefield, or cards in your graveyard. Once you hit 0 life you can't lose but you can't pay 2 life to surveil any more, either. There is no benefit here...unless you are thinking Death's Shadow or some other plan which involves getting to 0 life.
To maximize the demon's effectiveness you need to find an inexpensive (and ideally permanent) way to give it lifelink
They really BADLY want to make UB Surveillance a thing with that pushed demon, as its seemingly the only card that holds all of the mechanic together in a "combo finish" turn (as you can pay like 10 life to get 5x surveillance triggers, which somewhat easily translates into counters for everyone, free Nacros into play and draining them for a bunch).
----
Seems way too simplified to throw in all cards with the mechanic and call it a deck ...
Is anyone else wondering why the surveilling demon has a multitude of hands as opposed to something that would be useful for surveillance like eyes or ears?
I still love the art and the card though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Protection from reason (Decadent_Creed can't be blocked, targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted by reason.)
They really BADLY want to make UB Surveillance a thing with that pushed demon, as its seemingly the only card that holds all of the mechanic together in a "combo finish" turn (as you can pay like 10 life to get 5x surveillance triggers, which somewhat easily translates into counters for everyone, free Nacros into play and draining them for a bunch).
----
Seems way too simplified to throw in all cards with the mechanic and call it a deck ...
Surveil enables enough of the other mechanics (on color) and is too innately useful for card filtering in control to low roll the number of Surveil cards. The 'Surveil matters' cards might as well just be gravy on top of that.
As much as it feels weird there are twice the number of Surveil cards right now as any other guild mechanic, it also just- makes sense. Undergrowth needs enablers (like Surveil), Jump-Start can claim a lot of space but also likes enablers (like Surveil), Convoke is stupid good so WotC is probably wary (and needs enablers like Token generators), and Mentor needs small chumps that want to grow big and beefy (meaning less space on Mentor creatures).
Surveil needs none of that, it just needs cards that are good.
I can see people are a bit confused about cards that stop you "losing the game", and that this doesn't mean you can keep spending life for abilities if you don't have it. Once you're down to 0 life, you can't spend anymore on cards that require a life loss payment cost, even if you're not going to lose the game because of it.
Most of the confusion will be because of Ad nauseam combo with Phyrexian Unlife, which would appear to be doing just that. However it's how Ad nauseam works in that it isn't considered a cost that you pay.
You may continue to reveal cards with Ad Nauseam even if your life total has been reduced to 0 or less. If you continue, you will continue to lose life, dropping your life total into negative numbers. As soon as you stop, you’ll lose the game as a state-based action.
So lets be realistic in Legacy, Modern, Standard formats, you'll only have so much life you'll be able to play with his ability. Each life represents a card you can put into your graveyard.
That's not to say you won't be able to put some sort of sweet deck together with Children of Korlis or something like that.
Although with Griselbrand around it's unlikely to take that spot for those sorts of combos in Vintage, Legacy and Modern.
Commander of course has a 40 starting life total, so there is a lot more wiggle room for broken stuff. I'm already brewing a deck around Doom Whisperer.
Now that Doom Whisperer has been spoiled... should we start stocking up on Lich's Mastery?
You didn't already have a foil playset? I played Lich's Mastery control at the last SCG Open here. =)
Most of the confusion will be because of Ad nauseam combo with Phyrexian Unlife, which would appear to be doing just that. However it's how Ad nauseam works in that it isn't considered a cost that you pay.
You may continue to reveal cards with Ad Nauseam even if your life total has been reduced to 0 or less. If you continue, you will continue to lose life, dropping your life total into negative numbers. As soon as you stop, you’ll lose the game as a state-based action.
Correct. If it said This deals 2 damage to you: Surveil 2, you could do it forever. Payment of mana or life requires you to have that resource.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
(...seriously though, that art, JFC. Feels like it escaped from Shadows Over Innistrad.)
I saw it as Ad Nauseam but without the synergy with Platinum Angel and friends (and considering the art is left over from the original Ravnica block, and is actually Dimir...) Either way, comparisons to one obviously broken card and one not really broken at the time but hella broken once Laboratory Maniac came out bode well for it in EDH.
On phasing:
That doesn't work. You can't pay with something you don't have.
I'm not saying creatures should be bad, but should they consistently be good in this way? And with so little effort, drawback or cost? Do creatures like this not limit design space for sorcery speed actions in the game and push removal maybe a little too much?
Edit: I forgot to mention goblin chainwhirler, walking ballista, etc.
-Chandra Nalaar
+ +
Make sure you get at least 9 black creatures into your graveyard and you can spend 2WWW to essentially double your life total from when you started the Surveil train.
Also,
+ / .
You'd also need actually hit the Ancestral Tribute during the Surveil train, but in Commander if your life total is something like 36, then that's 36 cards deep. Plus with the Ancestor's Chosen plan as well, you can lengthen this process easily.
Backup cards;
Songs of the Damned, Crypt Incursion, Honor the Fallen.
If you also decided to go Esper (i.e. hint hint Oloro, Ageless Ascetic), then you could add Laboratory Maniac to the mix, as between Ancestral Tribute and Ancestor's Chosen combos you should be able to Surveil your entire deck.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
like, I'm not sure if it's "broken," but a 6/6 flying trampler for 5 is pretty damn pushed even without the other ability, especially since I think black is still third place in creature quality? Anyway, this guy's pretty beefy on top of a great ability. Maybe I should crack packs for this guy.
The art just terrifies me a bit.... >__<
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
To maximize the demon's effectiveness you need to find an inexpensive (and ideally permanent) way to give it lifelink
Enhanced Surveillance allows you to go nuts with Lich + Doom + Creeping Chill!
Oh, I don't disagree with *that*, only with the notion that the hexproof enchantment is a necessary piece of the puzzle.
----
Seems way too simplified to throw in all cards with the mechanic and call it a deck ...
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I still love the art and the card though.
As much as it feels weird there are twice the number of Surveil cards right now as any other guild mechanic, it also just- makes sense. Undergrowth needs enablers (like Surveil), Jump-Start can claim a lot of space but also likes enablers (like Surveil), Convoke is stupid good so WotC is probably wary (and needs enablers like Token generators), and Mentor needs small chumps that want to grow big and beefy (meaning less space on Mentor creatures).
Surveil needs none of that, it just needs cards that are good.
Most of the confusion will be because of Ad nauseam combo with Phyrexian Unlife, which would appear to be doing just that. However it's how Ad nauseam works in that it isn't considered a cost that you pay.
So lets be realistic in Legacy, Modern, Standard formats, you'll only have so much life you'll be able to play with his ability. Each life represents a card you can put into your graveyard.
That's not to say you won't be able to put some sort of sweet deck together with Children of Korlis or something like that.
Although with Griselbrand around it's unlikely to take that spot for those sorts of combos in Vintage, Legacy and Modern.
Commander of course has a 40 starting life total, so there is a lot more wiggle room for broken stuff. I'm already brewing a deck around Doom Whisperer.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
You didn't already have a foil playset? I played Lich's Mastery control at the last SCG Open here. =)
Most of the confusion will be because of Ad nauseam combo with Phyrexian Unlife, which would appear to be doing just that. However it's how Ad nauseam works in that it isn't considered a cost that you pay.
Correct. If it said This deals 2 damage to you: Surveil 2, you could do it forever. Payment of mana or life requires you to have that resource.