Don't play vraska that turn then, your playing gb colors, do literally anythin else, use vraskas contempt, assassins trophy, the new black removal, both the one drop and 4 drop , you can literally say the same thing for Karn, would you play a karn into a turned on rhonas, or any threat that you needed to answer immediately? No unless you had no other option.
Karn can make a chump blocker if need be, or at worst replace himself with another card. And on an empty board, Karn actually provides card advantage. Vraska does none of those things.
You say to do literally anything else, in which case why are you playing Vraska in the first place? She doesn't provide any actual CA against control decks, leaves herself at 1 loyalty if she removes something against an aggro deck, and against a midrange deck I'd rather have literally any other card you listed instead of Vraska. So why, exactly, would you ever play her to begin with?
to me vraska's closest counterpart is nahiri, the harbinger. high starting loyalty, +2 that inst always great, and a - ability that is a situational answer. the primary difference being the ultimate.
if nahiri didnt have such a quick ultimate (that could be its own self contained combo) i doubt it would have saw much play in standard, and see far less play in modern than it does now.
i get that formats are a function of the card pool, however given nahiri's mediocre success im dubious if vraska can be more than just a 1 or 2-of value roleplayer; rather than a power walker you build around (ie teferi, chandra tod). that is just for standard mind you. id be genuinely surprised if she shows up in any competitive list in modern and beyond.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
"She does nothing the turn she's dropped."
False
She has a minus and can more likely clear a decent threat if dropped early, from steel leaf to one whirley boi. Can also pop artifacts and enchantments that may be bothersome like a seal away, song of freylaise set up, history of bananas. Hell, even other walkers at 3 cmc. If they are no threats worth burning your loyalty on then plus up and set up a win con.
Vraska, Golgari Queen has a conditional minus. If you are on the draw and your opponent plays literally any 4-drop creature, what exactly is your plan? Run Vraska out into it and plus her for no value to maybe soak up some damage? That is not where I want to be with my 4-drops. She's bad when you're behind, mediocre when you're ahead and merely passable at parity. That's simply not good enough for a Planeswalker, especially when she's competing with Karn, Scion of Urza who can fit into any deck. She's a $5 card that will see fringe Standard play, if that.
Karn doesn't fit into every deck. Karn doesn't remove a blocker. Karn isn't much better when you're behind. Karn is losing 90% of the support that made him good, artifacts.
to me vraska's closest counterpart is nahiri, the harbinger. high starting loyalty, +2 that inst always great, and a - ability that is a situational answer. the primary difference being the ultimate.
if nahiri didnt have such a quick ultimate (that could be its own self contained combo) i doubt it would have saw much play in standard, and see far less play in modern than it does now.
i get that formats are a function of the card pool, however given nahiri's mediocre success im dubious if vraska can be more than just a 1 or 2-of value roleplayer; rather than a power walker you build around (ie teferi, chandra tod). that is just for standard mind you. id be genuinely surprised if she shows up in any competitive list in modern and beyond.
If a Nahiri appeared on the other side of the table turn 4.. I'd be eager to get rid of her right away, an emrakul or something else big and scary will come flying if the lithomancer is not dealt with. A Vraska, Golgari Queen appears turn 4... I would be .. "ok fine", need to remove her but not the same amount of urgency as a Nahiri. As someone in this thread already said.. this Vraska is a 5 dollar card.
Yeah Nahiri is scary cause it takes 3 turns before she got drop something big and scary. Vraska you get 4 turns and depending on the board her plus might not even give much value.
Don't play vraska that turn then, your playing gb colors, do literally anythin else, use vraskas contempt, assassins trophy, the new black removal, both the one drop and 4 drop , you can literally say the same thing for Karn, would you play a karn into a turned on rhonas, or any threat that you needed to answer immediately? No unless you had no other option.
Karn can make a chump blocker if need be, or at worst replace himself with another card. And on an empty board, Karn actually provides card advantage. Vraska does none of those things.
You say to do literally anything else, in which case why are you playing Vraska in the first place? She doesn't provide any actual CA against control decks, leaves herself at 1 loyalty if she removes something against an aggro deck, and against a midrange deck I'd rather have literally any other card you listed instead of Vraska. So why, exactly, would you ever play her to begin with?
She does provide card advantage if she just straights removes anything from board, as there is still a walker to deal with. Her plus is there for late game land flood filtering or even just searching for more answers and threats. She has an actual wincon which control would not like to see go off.
Karn is a card draw engine who's minus was ever only relevant when he was played in mono blue std storm, or turbo fog as a slow win condition. Pumping out a 1/1 and leaving a 3 loyalty karn against a 4 drop is more than likely going to get karned killed, since most threats at 4 mana or above have evasion. He can't actually touch anything the turn he comes out either and even his card advantage is slow at times. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying karn is bad or that vraska is chandra levels, I'm just saying don't underestimate what a repeatable abrupt decay is capable of. And don't overestimate what a card engine can do either, especially one that takes 2 to 3 turns to get a card you actually want out of it.
And I just want to reiterate, abrupt decay is pretty good even vs control decks, as they play things like search for azcanta, seal away, etc, etc. She's basically a universal answer for the smaller things, and I played enough magic to know a rechargeable universal answer is standard playworthy.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
She does provide card advantage if she just straights removes anything from board, as there is still a walker to deal with. Her plus is there for late game land flood filtering or even just searching for more answers and threats. She has an actual wincon which control would not like to see go off.
Leaving a Vraska at 1 loyalty is CA only in the loosest sense of the word. Her +2 isn't worth a card; it is significantly worse than straight CA like Karn/Teferi, and even Nahiri's rummage ability is better. Trading a card on the board for a draw is just... bad. If you're sacrificing a non-land that means you're putting yourself back on mana/tempo, and if you're sacrificing lands you're just setting yourself back on options. You have to be pretty seriously flooded (7+ lands in play) before it's even worth considering losing lands to draw. As for her ultimate, we all know judging a PW on their ultimate is just foolhardy.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying karn is bad or that vraska is chandra levels, I'm just saying don't underestimate what a repeatable abrupt decay is capable of. And don't overestimate what a card engine can do either, especially one that takes 2 to 3 turns to get a card you actually want out of it.
Except you need to get more out of Vraska than an Abrupt Decay for her to be worthwhile, in the same way Chandra isn't just a Flame Slash. Even if you have worthwhile targets for Vraska's -3 -- which certainly isn't a given, what with the targeting restrictions and all -- the true worth of a PW is the extra value you get from it surviving even one extra turn after removing something. Chandra, obviously, can give you an extra card or a free Shock. Karn goes up to 6 loyalty, and if he survives a hit you end up with an additional card. Vraska gives you... negative tempo and a single extra life? It really does come down to the fact that Vraska's plus ability simply isn't very good.
And I just want to reiterate, abrupt decay is pretty good even vs control decks, as they play things like search for azcanta, seal away, etc, etc. She's basically a universal answer for the smaller things, and I played enough magic to know a rechargeable universal answer is standard playworthy.
Maybe, but I'm honestly not convinced there will be many artifacts or enchantments being played post-rotation. Between Thrashing Brontodon, Cleansing Nova, Assassin's Trophy, Knight of Autumn and more I'm probably forgetting, the environment is just incredibly hostile to artifacts and enchantments. I would be shocked if many decks relied on Seal Away/Ixalan's Binding type effects if they have any other option.
Has anyone mentioned Crucible of Worlds? With the graveyard enablers present in Standard, it seems like Crucible might fit nicely into a "fill my yard" type of strategy. This makes the +2 a bit more flexible.
Has anyone mentioned Crucible of Worlds? With the graveyard enablers present in Standard, it seems like Crucible might fit nicely into a "fill my yard" type of strategy. This makes the +2 a bit more flexible.
Well, Abrade is out of the format. And yeah, that's an interesting point. With Crucible in play, her +2 can actually untap a land for you later so to speak. If you don't have a land to play that turn anyway.
Emmara and Vraska seem like a good team. Tap Emmara for something, create a token, sac it to Vraska for card draw. Thorn Elemental could be most terrifying with Vraska's ultimate.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Hey there abzan players. Are you upset with blood moon decks? Feel like your greedy Mana base has a tough time again land hate? Sick and tired of seeing opt and Snapcaster Mage dismantle your deck? Step no further:
You say to do literally anything else, in which case why are you playing Vraska in the first place? She doesn't provide any actual CA against control decks, leaves herself at 1 loyalty if she removes something against an aggro deck, and against a midrange deck I'd rather have literally any other card you listed instead of Vraska. So why, exactly, would you ever play her to begin with?
if nahiri didnt have such a quick ultimate (that could be its own self contained combo) i doubt it would have saw much play in standard, and see far less play in modern than it does now.
i get that formats are a function of the card pool, however given nahiri's mediocre success im dubious if vraska can be more than just a 1 or 2-of value roleplayer; rather than a power walker you build around (ie teferi, chandra tod). that is just for standard mind you. id be genuinely surprised if she shows up in any competitive list in modern and beyond.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Karn doesn't fit into every deck. Karn doesn't remove a blocker. Karn isn't much better when you're behind. Karn is losing 90% of the support that made him good, artifacts.
If a Nahiri appeared on the other side of the table turn 4.. I'd be eager to get rid of her right away, an emrakul or something else big and scary will come flying if the lithomancer is not dealt with. A Vraska, Golgari Queen appears turn 4... I would be .. "ok fine", need to remove her but not the same amount of urgency as a Nahiri. As someone in this thread already said.. this Vraska is a 5 dollar card.
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She does provide card advantage if she just straights removes anything from board, as there is still a walker to deal with. Her plus is there for late game land flood filtering or even just searching for more answers and threats. She has an actual wincon which control would not like to see go off.
Karn is a card draw engine who's minus was ever only relevant when he was played in mono blue std storm, or turbo fog as a slow win condition. Pumping out a 1/1 and leaving a 3 loyalty karn against a 4 drop is more than likely going to get karned killed, since most threats at 4 mana or above have evasion. He can't actually touch anything the turn he comes out either and even his card advantage is slow at times. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying karn is bad or that vraska is chandra levels, I'm just saying don't underestimate what a repeatable abrupt decay is capable of. And don't overestimate what a card engine can do either, especially one that takes 2 to 3 turns to get a card you actually want out of it.
And I just want to reiterate, abrupt decay is pretty good even vs control decks, as they play things like search for azcanta, seal away, etc, etc. She's basically a universal answer for the smaller things, and I played enough magic to know a rechargeable universal answer is standard playworthy.
Except you need to get more out of Vraska than an Abrupt Decay for her to be worthwhile, in the same way Chandra isn't just a Flame Slash. Even if you have worthwhile targets for Vraska's -3 -- which certainly isn't a given, what with the targeting restrictions and all -- the true worth of a PW is the extra value you get from it surviving even one extra turn after removing something. Chandra, obviously, can give you an extra card or a free Shock. Karn goes up to 6 loyalty, and if he survives a hit you end up with an additional card. Vraska gives you... negative tempo and a single extra life? It really does come down to the fact that Vraska's plus ability simply isn't very good.
Maybe, but I'm honestly not convinced there will be many artifacts or enchantments being played post-rotation. Between Thrashing Brontodon, Cleansing Nova, Assassin's Trophy, Knight of Autumn and more I'm probably forgetting, the environment is just incredibly hostile to artifacts and enchantments. I would be shocked if many decks relied on Seal Away/Ixalan's Binding type effects if they have any other option.
I'm guessing she will be better turn 6-8, when you have stuff that you don't necessarily need on the board? So you can speed into her ultimate?
Maybe she is just bad?
Well, Abrade is out of the format. And yeah, that's an interesting point. With Crucible in play, her +2 can actually untap a land for you later so to speak. If you don't have a land to play that turn anyway.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Oath of Nissa
renegade rallier
vraska, golgari queen
New spoilers wouldn't be several pages back, flagged as [GRN], and last been updated six months ago.
Was on my cel, could not see number of pages, dates, etc. i guess i could have readed the names tho