I think she is super dependent on being built around to be good. It's hard to say if she will take off, but I can accurately say I'd not be very excited to open her or Ral. The Core 2019 walkers are much more solid roleplayers than the ones they've spoiled in this set.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I will also point out that she doesn't seem to be the greatest against control. Often you sideboard in planeswalkers against control, with the idea that there is less removal that can target planeswalkers and that they naturally gain you advantage if unanswered.
Even though you can [+2] her and not actually have to sacrifice anything just to build up loyalty counters to her ultimate, this isn't really the best plan. It still requires 4 turns to ultimate, and then even it's an emblem that can be dealt with, by removing the creatures threats.
So in this sense a control player really doesn't have to worry about her at all. It's just too telegraphed and slow to put pressure on a control player, which is often where planeswalkers should shine.
I'm just saying all this because 100% it's going to be overvalued price wise on the secondary market.
The people commenting in this thread have been pretty onto it, but you have to think that the bulk of Magic players are probably going to overrate the card, as they'll be thinking that's it's the next Chandra, Torch of Defiance, which it is not.
She's very good. I am surprised people are complaining about a solid card like this. She's very good in STD and borderline staple in Commander.
lolno.
As a sac outlet she's *incredibly* mediocre,
and her removal is really bad in EDH— I haven't run Abrupt Decay since it first came out.
I get that her Emblem has the ability to win group games,
and that's going to be attractive to a lot of players,
but she's frequently going to die after giving you about BG-BBG worth of value.
I agree that she's solid for Standard, though,
and she could even see fringe play in Modern or Legacy.
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So, she has repeatable Abrupt Decay and her emblem is a nice throwback to her original ultimate. I'm impressed. You can always run Assassin's Trophy with her, it's asociated with her after all. And you have to judge Vraska by what cards are around her in the format, not just whether or not you think "+2: You MAY sac a permanent to draw a card and gain 1 life" is "bad".
You keep living in your world, I'll stay in mine, where "does nothing" does not mean "not as immediately busted as the best card in the set." IIUC, 99% of the cards spoiled so far "do nothing".
/A wild hyperbole appears.
It's not just a matter of "Card X is better than Card Y". The point of the comparison was to point out there are 2 extremely good spells that are basically a lock to be Standard staples that completely obliterate Vraska, Golgari Queen. Spending 4 mana for your Planeswalker to not effect the board just to have it eat an Assassin's Trophy and your opponent also drops a 2-drop is not a winning proposition. Even Contempt is mana neutral meaning you just wasted your crucial 4th turn while your opponent gets to untap with all of their mana avaliable on T5.
Okay then, just minus her when she comes in for some immediate value. Which is... okay I guess? I'm certainly not excited about a 4 mana, sorcery speed, counterable Abrupt Decay. And it leaves her at 1 loyalty for easy clean up, especially by Goblin Chainwhirler.
Remember, we are heading into a Standard with both Shocklands and Checklands, meaning 3, 4 and 5 color decks are going to be the norm now. When you can play basically any 4 drop regardless of colors, does Vraska make the cut in your deck? Chandra this is not.
By the insane high standards that Chandra and Teferi set (and even karn for that matter) its really hard to find a spot to justify being included in a deck.
The split spells seem to be universally better than this for Golgari colors.
----
Its just strange that they made her so "weak" as a somewhat important piece of the story.
I'm just saying all this because 100% it's going to be overvalued price wise on the secondary market.
True, the Secondary Market of this thing is gonna be annoying to say the least
Yeah, after looking at it for a 2nd time this Vraska is gonna be tried and be built around its 1st ability so it can used. Need creatures or permanents that have "When it dies" effect to be effective.
I think Vraska, Relic Seeker would have a more "Striking" Presence when it enter the battlefield than this new Vraska
Def Vraska, Relic Seeker will see more play in standard than this one. The thing that hurts the most on her is the fact the her -3 ability don't hit Ixalan's Binding
Wizards has the Gorgon Queen, and Blizzard has the Banshee Queen. What I wouldn't give to see the pair of them fighting each other.
I do like they made the +2 a May ability rather than a Must ability. If you don't feel like saccing, no problem - you still get the loyalty.
Blizzard has the Queen of the Swarm. You can prob See Sylvana vs Karigan in the Moba Heroes of the Storm i guess. Queen of the Zerg
By the insane high standards that Chandra and Teferi set (and even karn for that matter) its really hard to find a spot to justify being included in a deck.
The split spells seem to be universally better than this for Golgari colors.
----
Its just strange that they made her so "weak" as a somewhat important piece of the story.
I think they wanted to make her as powerfull as 4 manas can get you without making BGx decks opressive in modern... If she flops it will be funny cause wizards realy though she would be the MR of the set, or at least the walker of the set.
Lets wait for her masterpiece art.
She can come down on turn 3 and grow to 6 counters immediately, it'll be hard for the opp to stop her growing in the next couple of turns and then she'll ult on turn 6, that's quite fast.
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Token decks will love that +2. It's a bad Skullclamp, but if your token has 2 toughness, you can use it with Skullclamp to draw 3.
The -3 hits any nonland permanent with CMC 3 or less. (It's actually the only part that justifies this card being green from a mechanical perspective; yes, I know, she's Golgari from a flavor perspective.)
That -9 is another thing token decks will love. "Yes, I'm attacking you with ten thousand bee stings. But now you're allergic."
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
A shame really 4 CMC is usually where WOTC is somewhat creative with Walkers these days....creative and effective like Chandra TOD or New Karn.
Here she has the template of the standard Ob Class 5 CMC Walker but worse in every way possible. Need sacrifice to draw a card. Only gets rid of stuff 3 CMC or less. Her Ult wins I guess only through combat though. She is at best a mirror breaker when games go late and you have plenty of random lands around.
But really the removal is big problem Abrupt Decay barely sees Play in Modern and at least it can be cast for only 2 CMC and is uncounterable at instant speed. By the time you get to 4 mana the biggest threat your opponent has is not likely to be a 3 CMC target.
I think she is getting high on the price because the overall mix of Golgari and Dimir cards with their new mechanics makes for a good deck mix in a few Elves from Dominaria in Llanowar and Steel Leaf and a few Dinos like Ghalta and Brontodon from Ixalan. Basically you got a Strong Green Core already that is not losing much compared to RB which is getting crippled and combine with Golgari getting pushed and the synergy between Surveil and Undergrowth it looks good. The manabase leans a little Black which could be an issue but Llanowar Elves should help.
Plus you know everyone dreams of making Sultai work.
In a straight comparison (in a vacuum) no she is not better then Teferi or Karn as a Walker but she is got way better deck and cards to build around then Teferi, Karn or Ral. Although hmm maybe Grixis with Ral can work granted most UR cards haven't impressed me.
"She does nothing the turn she's dropped."
False
She has a minus and can more likely clear a decent threat if dropped early, from steel leaf to one whirley boi. Can also pop artifacts and enchantments that may be bothersome like a seal away, song of freylaise set up, history of bananas. Hell, even other walkers at 3 cmc. If they are no threats worth burning your loyalty on then plus up and set up a win con.
I'm also going to add if your against a zoo or midrange build, you can just drop her, pop someone and continue to play the game and if she's not answered, pop more creatures, literally repeatable removal.
We also have quite a couple fodder creatures we can sac to her, from useless mid game mana dorks, stitched supplier, zealot, ravenous chubacabra, not to mention treasure tokens are still a thing. And there are quite a bit of treasure makers. Surprised no one mentioned that.
Hilariously she really synergizes with the other vraska, her plus being able to pop the pirate or treasure for life and card draw and her ultimate basically making the pirates into lethal creatures.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
"She does nothing the turn she's dropped."
False
She has a minus and can more likely clear a decent threat if dropped early, from steel leaf to one whirley boi. Can also pop artifacts and enchantments that may be bothersome like a seal away, song of freylaise set up, history of bananas. Hell, even other walkers at 3 cmc. If they are no threats worth burning your loyalty on then plus up and set up a win con.
I'm also going to add if your against a zoo or midrange build, you can just drop her, pop someone and continue to play the game and if she's not answered, pop more creatures, literally repeatable removal.
We also have quite a couple fodder creatures we can sac to her, from useless mid game mana dorks, stitched supplier, zealot, ravenous chubacabra, not to mention treasure tokens are still a thing. And there are quite a bit of treasure makers. Surprised no one mentioned that.
Hilariously she really synergizes with the other vraska, her plus being able to pop the pirate or treasure for life and card draw and her ultimate basically making the pirates into lethal creatures.
The new zombie Midnight Reaper compliments her, too. Plus, the cheap explore creatures from ixilan will fill 2 roles in a b/g deck with Vraska, fill the yard/mana fix, and be used for her plus one ability. Honestly, she isn't as bad as I initially thought. Also, Oathsworn Vampire is repeatable draw/lifegain.
"She does nothing the turn she's dropped."
False
She has a minus and can more likely clear a decent threat if dropped early, from steel leaf to one whirley boi. Can also pop artifacts and enchantments that may be bothersome like a seal away, song of freylaise set up, history of bananas. Hell, even other walkers at 3 cmc. If they are no threats worth burning your loyalty on then plus up and set up a win con.
Vraska, Golgari Queen has a conditional minus. If you are on the draw and your opponent plays literally any 4-drop creature, what exactly is your plan? Run Vraska out into it and plus her for no value to maybe soak up some damage? That is not where I want to be with my 4-drops. She's bad when you're behind, mediocre when you're ahead and merely passable at parity. That's simply not good enough for a Planeswalker, especially when she's competing with Karn, Scion of Urza who can fit into any deck. She's a $5 card that will see fringe Standard play, if that.
how about t1 elf, t2 Journey to Eternity. unless the opponent bolts your bird turn 1 or has that 4 damage & exile thingie, you have a guaranteed 6-loyalty Vraska and flipped Journey (counterspells notwithstanding) on turn 3 with an elf to defend her if needed.
how about t1 elf, t2 Journey to Eternity. unless the opponent bolts your bird turn 1 or has that 4 damage & exile thingie, you have a guaranteed 6-loyalty Vraska and flipped Journey (counterspells notwithstanding) on turn 3 with an elf to defend her if needed.
That's a lot of hoops to jump through to make your 4-drop playable. It wasn't good enough for Demon of Catastrophes to see play, and frankly I'd rather have the 6/6 Flying Trample instead of Vraska.
"She does nothing the turn she's dropped."
False
She has a minus and can more likely clear a decent threat if dropped early, from steel leaf to one whirley boi. Can also pop artifacts and enchantments that may be bothersome like a seal away, song of freylaise set up, history of bananas. Hell, even other walkers at 3 cmc. If they are no threats worth burning your loyalty on then plus up and set up a win con.
Vraska, Golgari Queen has a conditional minus. If you are on the draw and your opponent plays literally any 4-drop creature, what exactly is your plan? Run Vraska out into it and plus her for no value to maybe soak up some damage? That is not where I want to be with my 4-drops. She's bad when you're behind, mediocre when you're ahead and merely passable at parity. That's simply not good enough for a Planeswalker, especially when she's competing with Karn, Scion of Urza who can fit into any deck. She's a $5 card that will see fringe Standard play, if that.
Don't play vraska that turn then, your playing gb colors, do literally anythin else, use vraskas contempt, assassins trophy, the new black removal, both the one drop and 4 drop , you can literally say the same thing for Karn, would you play a karn into a turned on rhonas, or any threat that you needed to answer immediately? No unless you had no other option.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
how about t1 elf, t2 Journey to Eternity. unless the opponent bolts your bird turn 1 or has that 4 damage & exile thingie, you have a guaranteed 6-loyalty Vraska and flipped Journey (counterspells notwithstanding) on turn 3 with an elf to defend her if needed.
That's a lot of hoops to jump through to make your 4-drop playable. It wasn't good enough for Demon of Catastrophes to see play, and frankly I'd rather have the 6/6 Flying Trample instead of Vraska.
I view her like Tezzeret, The Schemer: She's only as good as the archetype she was built to support, and will probably fall into obscurity rather quickly if that deck gets hosed.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Even though you can [+2] her and not actually have to sacrifice anything just to build up loyalty counters to her ultimate, this isn't really the best plan. It still requires 4 turns to ultimate, and then even it's an emblem that can be dealt with, by removing the creatures threats.
So in this sense a control player really doesn't have to worry about her at all. It's just too telegraphed and slow to put pressure on a control player, which is often where planeswalkers should shine.
I'm just saying all this because 100% it's going to be overvalued price wise on the secondary market.
The people commenting in this thread have been pretty onto it, but you have to think that the bulk of Magic players are probably going to overrate the card, as they'll be thinking that's it's the next Chandra, Torch of Defiance, which it is not.
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lolno.
As a sac outlet she's *incredibly* mediocre,
and her removal is really bad in EDH— I haven't run Abrupt Decay since it first came out.
I get that her Emblem has the ability to win group games,
and that's going to be attractive to a lot of players,
but she's frequently going to die after giving you about BG-BBG worth of value.
I agree that she's solid for Standard, though,
and she could even see fringe play in Modern or Legacy.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Okay then, just minus her when she comes in for some immediate value. Which is... okay I guess? I'm certainly not excited about a 4 mana, sorcery speed, counterable Abrupt Decay. And it leaves her at 1 loyalty for easy clean up, especially by Goblin Chainwhirler.
Remember, we are heading into a Standard with both Shocklands and Checklands, meaning 3, 4 and 5 color decks are going to be the norm now. When you can play basically any 4 drop regardless of colors, does Vraska make the cut in your deck? Chandra this is not.
By the insane high standards that Chandra and Teferi set (and even karn for that matter) its really hard to find a spot to justify being included in a deck.
The split spells seem to be universally better than this for Golgari colors.
----
Its just strange that they made her so "weak" as a somewhat important piece of the story.
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True, the Secondary Market of this thing is gonna be annoying to say the least
Yeah, after looking at it for a 2nd time this Vraska is gonna be tried and be built around its 1st ability so it can used. Need creatures or permanents that have "When it dies" effect to be effective.
I think Vraska, Relic Seeker would have a more "Striking" Presence when it enter the battlefield than this new Vraska
Blizzard has the Queen of the Swarm. You can prob See Sylvana vs Karigan in the Moba Heroes of the Storm i guess.
Queen of the Zerg
I think they wanted to make her as powerfull as 4 manas can get you without making BGx decks opressive in modern... If she flops it will be funny cause wizards realy though she would be the MR of the set, or at least the walker of the set.
Lets wait for her masterpiece art.
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The -3 hits any nonland permanent with CMC 3 or less. (It's actually the only part that justifies this card being green from a mechanical perspective; yes, I know, she's Golgari from a flavor perspective.)
That -9 is another thing token decks will love. "Yes, I'm attacking you with ten thousand bee stings. But now you're allergic."
On phasing:
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Here she has the template of the standard Ob Class 5 CMC Walker but worse in every way possible. Need sacrifice to draw a card. Only gets rid of stuff 3 CMC or less. Her Ult wins I guess only through combat though. She is at best a mirror breaker when games go late and you have plenty of random lands around.
But really the removal is big problem Abrupt Decay barely sees Play in Modern and at least it can be cast for only 2 CMC and is uncounterable at instant speed. By the time you get to 4 mana the biggest threat your opponent has is not likely to be a 3 CMC target.
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A turn 3 drop planeswalker with 6 loyalty on that turn is not easy to get rid off. She can go ult very quick in golgari decks.
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Plus you know everyone dreams of making Sultai work.
In a straight comparison (in a vacuum) no she is not better then Teferi or Karn as a Walker but she is got way better deck and cards to build around then Teferi, Karn or Ral. Although hmm maybe Grixis with Ral can work granted most UR cards haven't impressed me.
Remember that Teferi, Contempt, Trophy and Spyglass are all still cards, so Planeswalkers aren't robust enough that loyalty alone is a threat.
She competes for slots with another 4-mana walker that hits the board at 6 loyalty, but Karn also nets card advantage from turn 1.
"She does nothing the turn she's dropped."
False
She has a minus and can more likely clear a decent threat if dropped early, from steel leaf to one whirley boi. Can also pop artifacts and enchantments that may be bothersome like a seal away, song of freylaise set up, history of bananas. Hell, even other walkers at 3 cmc. If they are no threats worth burning your loyalty on then plus up and set up a win con.
I'm also going to add if your against a zoo or midrange build, you can just drop her, pop someone and continue to play the game and if she's not answered, pop more creatures, literally repeatable removal.
We also have quite a couple fodder creatures we can sac to her, from useless mid game mana dorks, stitched supplier, zealot, ravenous chubacabra, not to mention treasure tokens are still a thing. And there are quite a bit of treasure makers. Surprised no one mentioned that.
Hilariously she really synergizes with the other vraska, her plus being able to pop the pirate or treasure for life and card draw and her ultimate basically making the pirates into lethal creatures.
The new zombie Midnight Reaper compliments her, too. Plus, the cheap explore creatures from ixilan will fill 2 roles in a b/g deck with Vraska, fill the yard/mana fix, and be used for her plus one ability. Honestly, she isn't as bad as I initially thought. Also, Oathsworn Vampire is repeatable draw/lifegain.
Don't play vraska that turn then, your playing gb colors, do literally anythin else, use vraskas contempt, assassins trophy, the new black removal, both the one drop and 4 drop , you can literally say the same thing for Karn, would you play a karn into a turned on rhonas, or any threat that you needed to answer immediately? No unless you had no other option.
I view her like Tezzeret, The Schemer: She's only as good as the archetype she was built to support, and will probably fall into obscurity rather quickly if that deck gets hosed.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!