It wouldn't be the first time I have experienced C-level execs say "we will not do..." and then literally the next month they do what they said they wouldn't do. It's amazing their resolve to keep people motivated to basically show no change in course until a change is formally announced.
I am NOT saying this is what is happening at WotC, but corporate execs do not care about their peons and let everyone know their plans at all times. It's need-to-know basis. They would not let things like this to leak out into public until it is meant to be public knowledge. They tell the minimum amount of people and if someone blabs, it's their butt on the line. The two accounts of denial from WotC are legit IMO. Card leaks are completely separate from this because that is third party, and stuff like that happens and is why contracts and courts exist.
In a dystopian world: WotC chief says: "Bob we need to make more money because Hasbro is breathing down our necks.
Bob: Ok, we can resume Masterpieces because they increased booster sales.
WC: Great! what cards should be put in.
Bob: Well we run out of ideas on that one, since people didn't care for the last set of Masterpieces/Inventions we put in there.
WC: What cards are the "community" crying for.
Bob: Reserve List cards. They claim they can't play Legacy because they don't have the access to the cards at a lower price point, but most want them for Commander which we just bent them over on. My bad. The Masterpiece Counterspell is hovering around $90, Beta ~$550, and all others are $1. I'm pretty sure people have Counterspell, but the original is not a buck so maybe the collectors we promised won't sue us if we changed our policy again. They won't trust us anymore.
WC: Hmm. I like money Bob. The older collectors will sue us, but the newer players who never played in the 90s will be over joyed and shower us in cold hard cash just for the opportunity to crack one open on our current cardstock. I'll be swimming in it like Scrooge McDuck. Make it happen, but tell Maro to keep his mouth shut or he's fired."
I understand some EDH players want to get powerful cards for dirt cheap, but this constant ranting on reserve list is getting tiresome, and faking an article to express dismay is childish.
Players want the reserved list gone so that Vintage and Legacy become actual formats again.
The cancerous mass that are speculators and collectors want it to stay because they treat a collectable card game like the stock market at everyone else's expense.
Simple as that.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I understand some EDH players want to get powerful cards for dirt cheap, but this constant ranting on reserve list is getting tiresome, and faking an article to express dismay is childish.
Players want the reserved list gone so that Vintage and Legacy become actual formats again.
The cancerous mass that are speculators and collectors want it to stay because they treat a collectable card game like the stock market at everyone else's expense.
Simple as that.
It mostly comes down to how much money can the company make and can they afford to take on any issues that come from it. If they started doing masterpieces that would actually be a good first step in the right direction. However, Masterpieces are effectively Collector fodder anyway. Not that I wouldn't love to have a new All Hallow's Eve or The Abyss, but some cards just will never see the light of day again.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I never understood the "sue" point. Never existed a legally binding contract between WotC and any random RL card collector. From what laws a court should even listen the reasons of something that is founded by basically nothing?
You could read this very thread and stumble over the legal term "Promissory Estoppel" as an example how there can be legal relevance to a promise - a term you can look up to understand one example of how a promise can be legally more binding than you may be aware. From now on if you remain ununderstanding, youll be so by choice.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Pity. But I knew this was fake right away. I just wish there was a way for Wizards to somehow give us a blackboardered Revised art Plateau. That’s not asking for too much, is it? That’s really all I ask from the Reserved List. Well, that and a foil Sliver Queen.
Players want the reserved list gone so that Vintage and Legacy become actual formats again.
The cancerous mass that are speculators and collectors want it to stay because they treat a collectable card game like the stock market at everyone else's expense.
Simple as that.
Not quite.
You're forgetting the part where the cancerous mass has the law squarely on its side, and where Hasbro would almost certainly be violating its fiduciary duty to its investors by dabbling in even the most inconsequential of RL reprints.
Hence why the constant discussion of abolishing the RL is tiresome. It ain't happening as long as Magic continues to be published by WotC.
So it came from "Magic for Worse"? Because "Magic for Bad" got taken apart?
Yeah, that tells us all we need to know.
In all seriousness, this is starting to get to the point where people are able to manipulate the market for RL cards to the point where only investors can get into it. Which is going to kill Vintage and Legacy dead. Do WotC want to act on a group of people essentially killing off two of their tournament formats? It's going to be interesting to watch...
Players want the reserved list gone so that Vintage and Legacy become actual formats again.
The cancerous mass that are speculators and collectors want it to stay because they treat a collectable card game like the stock market at everyone else's expense.
Simple as that.
Not quite.
You're forgetting the part where the cancerous mass has the law squarely on its side, and where Hasbro would almost certainly be violating its fiduciary duty to its investors by dabbling in even the most inconsequential of RL reprints.
Hence why the constant discussion of abolishing the RL is tiresome. It ain't happening as long as Magic continues to be published by WotC.
They could do it if they wanted to. Wizards could afford to settle, or I'm told their lawyers are downright bloodthirsty, they might enjoy a good fight
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
If real, it will not be the end of the world, but probably will make some RL cards be way cheaper. I think we could see the new Helm of Obedience art being used for this ( if it is real )
Also if they did it this doesn't mean they will reprint all 10 duals on the spot, they will probably milk it down. For Ravnica they could just print some of the cheap but somewhatgood RL cards like
If real, it will not be the end of the world, but probably will make some RL cards be way cheaper. I think we could see the new Helm of Obedience art being used for this ( if it is real )
If real, it will not be the end of the world, but probably will make some RL cards be way cheaper. I think we could see the new Helm of Obedience art being used for this ( if it is real )
Players want the reserved list gone so that Vintage and Legacy become actual formats again.
The cancerous mass that are speculators and collectors want it to stay because they treat a collectable card game like the stock market at everyone else's expense.
Simple as that.
Not quite.
You're forgetting the part where the cancerous mass has the law squarely on its side, and where Hasbro would almost certainly be violating its fiduciary duty to its investors by dabbling in even the most inconsequential of RL reprints.
Hence why the constant discussion of abolishing the RL is tiresome. It ain't happening as long as Magic continues to be published by WotC.
Hasn't the bolded been proved to not be true whatsoever now? There's nothing binding them to holding to the Reserve List.
Players want the reserved list gone so that Vintage and Legacy become actual formats again.
The cancerous mass that are speculators and collectors want it to stay because they treat a collectable card game like the stock market at everyone else's expense.
Simple as that.
Not quite.
You're forgetting the part where the cancerous mass has the law squarely on its side, and where Hasbro would almost certainly be violating its fiduciary duty to its investors by dabbling in even the most inconsequential of RL reprints.
Hence why the constant discussion of abolishing the RL is tiresome. It ain't happening as long as Magic continues to be published by WotC.
Hasn't the bolded been proved to not be true whatsoever now? There's nothing binding them to holding to the Reserve List.
For a claim based on the Reserved List, your theory of the case would be that you spent an exorbitant amount of money to acquire cards, relying on Wizards’s promise never to reprint them to protect the value of your investment. You would also need to prove that Wizards should have reasonably expected you to rely on the Reserved List in this way, and that you were justified in doing so. This theory has significant flaws, which I will delve into in future articles.
The measure of damages here would be the price you paid minus the fair market value after they reprinted those cards. It’s very important to note that you can’t recover expectation damages. Because it’s reliance based, promissory estoppel won’t allow you to recover the profit that you would have made from selling a card at pre-reprint prices. Let’s say that you bought a Revised Underground Sea at $300, listed it at $800, and it tumbles down to $100 after a reprint. You could try to get the extra $200 that you paid in reliance on the Reserved List, but you can’t get the $500 profit that you would have made if Wizards hadn’t reprinted it.
If real, it will not be the end of the world, but probably will make some RL cards be way cheaper. I think we could see the new Helm of Obedience art being used for this ( if it is real )
Shouldn't there be more "Return to"s there? Look, I will admit that I'm going to goof off in this thread a little.
That said, if RL cards were going to come back, aside from the obvious one, I'd want stuff like Heat Stroke. Y'all probably forgot that was a thing, didn't you?
I never understood the "sue" point. Never existed a legally binding contract between WotC and any random RL card collector. From what laws a court should even listen the reasons of something that is founded by basically nothing?
You could read this very thread and stumble over the legal term "Promissory Estoppel" as an example how there can be legal relevance to a promise - a term you can look up to understand one example of how a promise can be legally more binding than you may be aware. From now on if you remain ununderstanding, youll be so by choice.
So, we can all sue our politicians over their electoral promises?
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"De potentia juvenis somniabat, nunc de Mundo somniat..."
I never understood the "sue" point. Never existed a legally binding contract between WotC and any random RL card collector. From what laws a court should even listen the reasons of something that is founded by basically nothing?
You could read this very thread and stumble over the legal term "Promissory Estoppel" as an example how there can be legal relevance to a promise - a term you can look up to understand one example of how a promise can be legally more binding than you may be aware. From now on if you remain ununderstanding, youll be so by choice.
So, we can all sue our politicians over their electoral promises?
Well, if you're living in Canada right now I can think of a large segment of the population that wishes that were true right now.
The main reason the RL isn't going away is because the company reinforced the promise around 2010 due to Hasbro, assuming I remember things right. If that didn't happen we'd be in a very different world right now. They could still do it, but I think Hasbro would have a fit.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I understand some EDH players want to get powerful cards for dirt cheap, but this constant ranting on reserve list is getting tiresome, and faking an article to express dismay is childish.
What's tiresome about wanting to be able to play the game in a fair way rather than playing within a class system?
The hell does this even mean? It isn't a class system for free markets to establish prices. Nobody has the right to own anything they want.
It mostly comes down to how much money can the company make and can they afford to take on any issues that come from it. If they started doing masterpieces that would actually be a good first step in the right direction. However, Masterpieces are effectively Collector fodder anyway. Not that I wouldn't love to have a new All Hallow's Eve or The Abyss, but some cards just will never see the light of day again.
This is exactly the issue for WotC/Hasbro. It's entirely plausible that WotC didn't know how to reprint RL cards to maintain net positive in the past. I'm sure their lawyers have advised them of estimated damages long ago, but it is likely to do more harm than good anyway for momentary increase in sales which a good exec would not do. It would be more likely to move that to a digital format to completely avoid the issue and have the cash grab online to maximize margin.
In my view, Legacy/Vintage is cool for me to watch others play with powerful RL cards. I can get into Modern relatively "cheaply" but am fully aware that those cards can go up or down depending on how many times they get reprinted over the years. Even though the article says Modern replaced Extended 7 years ago, in the long term Modern becomes Legacy to newer and established players with no RL to worry about. What I see as a price limiting/sticker shock for some are cards like the Fetch Lands which are ubiquitous in so many decks in Modern now, just like Dual Lands in Legacy. WotC knows this and they will reprint key cards when they see fit to maximize sales of whatever product. I believe WotC originally wanted an Eternal format with no reprint covenants, but poor choices with Chronicles forced them to make the RL to save the game which they now regret.
I actually believe this is happening, as the Team PT and the recent bans has me believing Wizards is contemplating re-investing in Legacy as a format. The recent price increases are quickly making Legacy un-affordable to the point of being downright exclusionary. I think this update to the Reserve List is a way to get more product out there without completely tanking prices instantly. If true, I'm expecting something like 5 dual lands and maybe one more Reserve List card to appear as Masterpieces in the Fall set, and not much more.
There is no incentive to make Legacy affordable. Legacy and Vintage are largely becoming online formats, where there are no restrictions, and they can lower the barrier to entry without pissing off a lot of people.
The incentive would be featuring them more prominently at Pro Tours and more regularly at GPs. Legacy is a viable means for Wizards to make money and expand viewership of the game. Whether they see it as such is another matter entirely, but saying there's no incentive is just wrong.
I don't believe that WOTC makes that much money off Pro Tour and GPs. Their main income is from selling boxes. Since Legacy is not getting people to buy packs from new sets, I do not see how featuring Legacy at the Pro Tour will profit WOTC more than featuring Standard. If anything, featuring Legacy at the Pro Tour is more likely to get people to start playing it online.
Why would WOTC risk everything on eliminating the RL, when they have a perfectly viable solution in place?
Someday, I am sure WotC is going to have to reckon with the Reserved List. If MtG is actually going to go for 50 years, it'll be a constant battle.
Return to Return to Ravnica doesn't seem like the place though. It's not like the set is going to need help:
1) Ravnica is their most popular plane, as evinced by it being the only non-Dominaria plane to get three visits in a standard-legal expansion.
2) They can just stick shocks in here, and the set basically sells itself on the combination of Commander/Brawl love and the shot at Modern's second-most important dual land cycle.
That isn't to say we won't get masterpieces in the set, but my gut is that set 1 has 5 shocks, set 2 has 5 shocks, and set 3 has a "masterpiece series" of planeswalkers and guild leaders past and present to keep us buying for three straight sets when the final one can't keep Shocking us.
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Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
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I am NOT saying this is what is happening at WotC, but corporate execs do not care about their peons and let everyone know their plans at all times. It's need-to-know basis. They would not let things like this to leak out into public until it is meant to be public knowledge. They tell the minimum amount of people and if someone blabs, it's their butt on the line. The two accounts of denial from WotC are legit IMO. Card leaks are completely separate from this because that is third party, and stuff like that happens and is why contracts and courts exist.
In a dystopian world: WotC chief says: "Bob we need to make more money because Hasbro is breathing down our necks.
Bob: Ok, we can resume Masterpieces because they increased booster sales.
WC: Great! what cards should be put in.
Bob: Well we run out of ideas on that one, since people didn't care for the last set of Masterpieces/Inventions we put in there.
WC: What cards are the "community" crying for.
Bob: Reserve List cards. They claim they can't play Legacy because they don't have the access to the cards at a lower price point, but most want them for Commander which we just bent them over on. My bad. The Masterpiece Counterspell is hovering around $90, Beta ~$550, and all others are $1. I'm pretty sure people have Counterspell, but the original is not a buck so maybe the collectors we promised won't sue us if we changed our policy again. They won't trust us anymore.
WC: Hmm. I like money Bob. The older collectors will sue us, but the newer players who never played in the 90s will be over joyed and shower us in cold hard cash just for the opportunity to crack one open on our current cardstock. I'll be swimming in it like Scrooge McDuck. Make it happen, but tell Maro to keep his mouth shut or he's fired."
Players want the reserved list gone so that Vintage and Legacy become actual formats again.
The cancerous mass that are speculators and collectors want it to stay because they treat a collectable card game like the stock market at everyone else's expense.
Simple as that.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
It mostly comes down to how much money can the company make and can they afford to take on any issues that come from it. If they started doing masterpieces that would actually be a good first step in the right direction. However, Masterpieces are effectively Collector fodder anyway. Not that I wouldn't love to have a new All Hallow's Eve or The Abyss, but some cards just will never see the light of day again.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You could read this very thread and stumble over the legal term "Promissory Estoppel" as an example how there can be legal relevance to a promise - a term you can look up to understand one example of how a promise can be legally more binding than you may be aware. From now on if you remain ununderstanding, youll be so by choice.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
You're forgetting the part where the cancerous mass has the law squarely on its side, and where Hasbro would almost certainly be violating its fiduciary duty to its investors by dabbling in even the most inconsequential of RL reprints.
Hence why the constant discussion of abolishing the RL is tiresome. It ain't happening as long as Magic continues to be published by WotC.
Yeah, that tells us all we need to know.
In all seriousness, this is starting to get to the point where people are able to manipulate the market for RL cards to the point where only investors can get into it. Which is going to kill Vintage and Legacy dead. Do WotC want to act on a group of people essentially killing off two of their tournament formats? It's going to be interesting to watch...
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
They could do it if they wanted to. Wizards could afford to settle, or I'm told their lawyers are downright bloodthirsty, they might enjoy a good fight
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Promotional/Helm of Obedience#online
Also if they did it this doesn't mean they will reprint all 10 duals on the spot, they will probably milk it down. For Ravnica they could just print some of the cheap but somewhatgood RL cards like
those cards could all fit in a Ravnica set. RL has alot of bad cards, just saying.
I'll take the online promo Candelabra of Tawnos thanks, Monty.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Promotional:Foil/Candelabra+of+Tawnos#online
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
Maybe on the Return to Return to Dominaria
Hasn't the bolded been proved to not be true whatsoever now? There's nothing binding them to holding to the Reserve List.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/contract-from-below-promissory-estoppel-and-the-reserved-list
That said, if RL cards were going to come back, aside from the obvious one, I'd want stuff like Heat Stroke. Y'all probably forgot that was a thing, didn't you?
So, we can all sue our politicians over their electoral promises?
Well, if you're living in Canada right now I can think of a large segment of the population that wishes that were true right now.
The main reason the RL isn't going away is because the company reinforced the promise around 2010 due to Hasbro, assuming I remember things right. If that didn't happen we'd be in a very different world right now. They could still do it, but I think Hasbro would have a fit.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This thread probably needs to be locked and archived.
There are some reasons speaking against that. Did you read up on the term and its application?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
They want our money but they rather give us worser product instead
The hell does this even mean? It isn't a class system for free markets to establish prices. Nobody has the right to own anything they want.
This is exactly the issue for WotC/Hasbro. It's entirely plausible that WotC didn't know how to reprint RL cards to maintain net positive in the past. I'm sure their lawyers have advised them of estimated damages long ago, but it is likely to do more harm than good anyway for momentary increase in sales which a good exec would not do. It would be more likely to move that to a digital format to completely avoid the issue and have the cash grab online to maximize margin.
In my view, Legacy/Vintage is cool for me to watch others play with powerful RL cards. I can get into Modern relatively "cheaply" but am fully aware that those cards can go up or down depending on how many times they get reprinted over the years. Even though the article says Modern replaced Extended 7 years ago, in the long term Modern becomes Legacy to newer and established players with no RL to worry about. What I see as a price limiting/sticker shock for some are cards like the Fetch Lands which are ubiquitous in so many decks in Modern now, just like Dual Lands in Legacy. WotC knows this and they will reprint key cards when they see fit to maximize sales of whatever product. I believe WotC originally wanted an Eternal format with no reprint covenants, but poor choices with Chronicles forced them to make the RL to save the game which they now regret.
I don't believe that WOTC makes that much money off Pro Tour and GPs. Their main income is from selling boxes. Since Legacy is not getting people to buy packs from new sets, I do not see how featuring Legacy at the Pro Tour will profit WOTC more than featuring Standard. If anything, featuring Legacy at the Pro Tour is more likely to get people to start playing it online.
Why would WOTC risk everything on eliminating the RL, when they have a perfectly viable solution in place?
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Return to Return to Ravnica doesn't seem like the place though. It's not like the set is going to need help:
1) Ravnica is their most popular plane, as evinced by it being the only non-Dominaria plane to get three visits in a standard-legal expansion.
2) They can just stick shocks in here, and the set basically sells itself on the combination of Commander/Brawl love and the shot at Modern's second-most important dual land cycle.
That isn't to say we won't get masterpieces in the set, but my gut is that set 1 has 5 shocks, set 2 has 5 shocks, and set 3 has a "masterpiece series" of planeswalkers and guild leaders past and present to keep us buying for three straight sets when the final one can't keep Shocking us.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG