And oath of Teferi can help blinking something else infinitely.
Oh damn, didn't think about that one. Seems dece.
Oh wait yeah, you need a bit more than just the Oath and Aminatou because oath returns at end of turn, but oath is still gonna be great in the deck.
Yeah you need felidar guardian and you have at worst infinite mana/infinite draw. And the chain veil works too.
I don't think you'd have infinite draw though because Aminatou's ability puts a card from your hand back top of your library. However you can blink your entire board and cast Worldpurge if you're into that kind of thing.
I guess I’m the only one who is actually shocked that any landwalk ability made it back from the abyss of abandoned keyworded abilities to be used on a brand new card. I mean MaRo previously gave landwalk a 9 on the storm scale of things that could come back.
As for the rest of the post, once again, using other cards to make Aminatou's abilities work. Tibalt is also good when you load your deck with Graveyard/Discard matters but he's still a bad card. I'm not saying Aminatou is as bad or worse than Tibalt, but it's close. And Aminatou provides no advantage. IF she had an inherent way of providing advantage, then yeah, I'd agree she's good. But she doesn't, her +1 only digs for a single card on its own with no inherent CA (and as a dig ability, it's pretty bad) and her -1 is useless without the right cards. Which, once again, wouldn't be terrible if she could either protect herself OR have a high enough Loyalty / Loyalty Gain to be relevant in the lategame once you assemble the right cards, but once again she doesn't. She's extremely vulnerable on her own, and once she hits the table in a point of the game where she COULD be relevant, your creature-based opponents will have more than enough firepower to kill her.
So, once again, what is the ideal game state for Aminatou to thrive? A stalled Pillowfort board where no opponent can attack Aminatou, despite these same opponents having big threats for you to steal? Not only is this a "best case scenario" which is extremely irrelevant (because all Planeswalkers could benefit from such a board), but it's also bad with her -1, because Pillowfort decks don't usually use powerful ETB effects for her to abuse. Or is it an board full of ETB creatures? Which, as I said, could be the best application for her, but in that case, you're minusing her, which makes her Ult, once again, irrelevant.
The thing is that you're saying these things, and I'm thinking exactly the same semantics about Estrid. Here is "my" thoughts..
You need to be using other cards to make Estrid's abilities work. Tibalt is also good when you load your deck with Graveyard/Discard matters but he's still a bad card. I'm not saying Estrid's is as bad or worse than Tibalt, but it's close. And Estrid's provides no advantage. IF she had an inherent way of providing advantage, then yeah, I'd agree she's good. But she doesn't, her +2 does nothing on its own with no inherent CA and her -1 is useless without the right cards. Which, once again, wouldn't be terrible if she could either protect herself OR have a high enough Loyalty / Loyalty Gain to be relevant in the lategame once you assemble the right cards, but once again she doesn't. She's extremely vulnerable on her own, and once she hits the table in a point of the game where she COULD be relevant, your creature-based opponents will have more than enough firepower to kill her.
You see how you're just arguing the same points which put Estrid in the same boat?
I personally think both these commanders are powerful with the right decks. I'm building a deck for both of them. I can see where they will shine with the right 99. Aminatou has a few infinites with her [-1] and her access to tutors like Demonic Tutor/Vampiric Tutor will mean that I'll pull them off probably quite consistently. I've built a few enchantment decks before, but Estrid does make me more excited about playing one.
1) Estrid protects your beefy big creatures that can in turn protect Estrid. This is called "synergy", something that Aminatou lacks.
2) Are you really comparing "needs permanents with benefical ETB effects" with "needs any permanents"? Alrighty then. In other news, all decks are now Combo decks because cards need to combo with lands.
3) I actually can provide a board where Estrid thrives - any board with beefy creatures where your opponent have beefy creatures so your creatures can be beefier than your opponent's. Once again, people here are providing meaningless combos with Aminatou's Ult and situational 3-card infinite combos that, as I said, could be a potential way for Aminatou to see play but provides unfun gameplay for precon decks and will draw board hate. If you're tryharding in Commander with infinite combos, then sure, I guess Aminatou is not awful?
So here's the problem with Estrid. Aminatou -1 is good with any creature with an enter (sometimes exit) the battlefield ability your getting value based off an interaction with the two cards. Estrid is required to not only have the other card there but have an additional card attached to get value. The only playstyle that would work with Estrid is enchanting lands otherwise a Wrath of God is going to make you lose twice as many permanents as everyone else. I'm also going to say something that will probably get me laughed at. If they slapped this can be your commander on Gideon, Martial Paragon and Jace, Ingenious Mind-Mage they would be better at their + abilities then Estrid is and have ultimates that can be more controlled than Estrid's.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
The thing is that you CAN actually get value from Aminatou [-1], where as Estrid [-1] assumes that opponents might be interacting specifically with those card, otherwise it literally does nothing.
Jack - "I've got totem armor!"
Jill - "Cool, I'll assemble my combo and win."
2) Are you really comparing "needs permanents with benefical ETB effects" with "needs any permanents"? Alrighty then. In other news, all decks are now Combo decks because cards need to combo with lands.
I actually have no idea what you're referring to, but in other news, Aminatou at it's very least can provide you an extra mana each turn, by blinking out a land. This can make a huge difference in competitive games, and being at 3 mana to cast, means that you can curve out more consistently in vital turns.
3) I actually can provide a board where Estrid thrives - any board with beefy creatures where your opponent have beefy creatures so your creatures can be beefier than your opponent's. Once again, people here are providing meaningless combos with Aminatou's Ult and situational 3-card infinite combos that, as I said, could be a potential way for Aminatou to see play but provides unfun gameplay for precon decks and will draw board hate. If you're tryharding in Commander with infinite combos, then sure, I guess Aminatou is not awful?
Your whole thing has been about how Aminatou is bad (Tibalt bad, just to make sure we know how bad it is), and now you're introducing unfun and tryharding. As long as the distinction is made clear. It's consistent with your bias, so I understand the way you've approached this whole subject. Infinite combos are a thing in commander, so I can see you're from a pool of casual players. This is absolutely fine, but you've been pushing an argument of specifically calling a card bad, without really having the proper knowledge, both in a competitive sense and card knowledge.
Yeah my bad. Maybe they were expecting that combo and fixed it. Infinite mana is not that bad still. I don't think you can avoid worldpurge with this blink ability. They are back immediately into play so they can't escape sweepers.
However you can blink infinetly another planeswalker or creature. Kaya, Ghost Assassin is just very good in this kind of deck. If the combo is into play you just kill everyone with infinite -1.
1) Minus Aminatou targeting Oath
2) Oath ETBs targeting a land
3) Minus Aminatou targeting Guardian
4) Guardian ETBs targeting Aminatou
5) Repeat steps 1-4 until your entire board is exiled by Oath
6) Cast Purge
7) End of turn your stuff comes back
8) Your opponents are sad
The thing is that you CAN actually get value from Aminatou [-1], where as Estrid [-1] assumes that opponents might be interacting specifically with those card, otherwise it literally does nothing.
Jack - "I've got totem armor!"
Jill - "Cool, I'll assemble my combo and win."
I'm not saying that there's no value to be had with blinking. I specifically said that it's Aminatou's only saving grace. Doesn't change the fact that 1) You need good cards to make another card good, 2) Said good cards must survive for Aminatou to get any extra value out of it and 3) Aminatou herself must survive as well.
Estrid can also potentially untap half your board with a plus ability, making her a stricly better Teferi -1, but Magic is not about what happens when everything is going well. That's the main difference here, if things aren't going as planned, Estrid can still advance your game state with the threat of an all-upside Ult, or start ramping up with the Land Masks, while Aminatou... digs for cards very poorly and threatens an Ult that is only relevant if Aminatou is at risk of dying.
Additionally, the opposite could also be said for Aminatou, because she's a combo piece stapled to the most vulnerable card type ever.
Jill - "I'll cast this to start assembling my combo."
Jack - "Cool. I'll kill you AND your main combo piece."
Or do you really want to wait until like turn 9 to cast all your combo pieces in one go in colors without fast mana?
I actually have no idea what you're referring to, but in other news, Aminatou at it's very least can provide you an extra mana each turn, by blinking out a land. This can make a huge difference in competitive games, and being at 3 mana to cast, means that you can curve out more consistently in vital turns.
Sure, I guess that's fair at least. I wouldn't call casting a 3 mana spell to ramp up 1 mana a winning play, but I'll confess it was not an option I had considered. Estrid can kinda do the same in reverse, Masking a land and using her +2 during her next turn. In both cases, you can ramp up 1 mana but it takes 2 turns to do so (as Aminatou can't offset her own cost the turn she hits the board).
Your whole thing has been about how Aminatou is bad (Tibalt bad, just to make sure we know how bad it is), and now you're introducing unfun and tryharding. As long as the distinction is made clear. It's consistent with your bias, so I understand the way you've approached this whole subject. Infinite combos are a thing in commander, so I can see you're from a pool of casual players. This is absolutely fine, but you've been pushing an argument of specifically calling a card bad, without really having the proper knowledge, both in a competitive sense and card knowledge.
Yes, that part is a personal opinion, as I mentioned in the original post before someone commented about combo-ing her Ult with other effects and everything spiraled into other topics, even though it is not an unpopular one AFAIK, but it's not exclusively about personal taste either way. Planeswalkers are terrible combo pieces because, as I said on the first point, they are the most vulnerable type of card in the game. Drawing hate in Commander isn't just about the "feelbad", it's about politics, and trying to assemble combo pieces where one of said pieces is so vulnerable is a losing game. If you want a good Infinite Combo deck for Commander, go play General Tazri, Sharuum the Hegemon or Saffi Eriksdotter like all the other cool kids, as they are more resilient and have better combo potential.
1) You need good cards to make another card good, 2) Said good cards must survive for Aminatou to get any extra value out of it and 3) Aminatou herself must survive as well.
How is what you said any different than Estrid? You literally need another card stapled onto a creature/land in order to get any any value out of Estrid.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
And oath of Teferi can help blinking something else infinitely.
Oh damn, didn't think about that one. Seems dece.
Oh wait yeah, you need a bit more than just the Oath and Aminatou because oath returns at end of turn, but oath is still gonna be great in the deck.
The Oath of Teferi is particular good with other planewalkers, as you can get 4 activations with Aminatou.
You can use Aminatou [-1] to blink the other planeswalkers, so that a "fresh" copy comes into play and you can reuse twice. This trick resets the loyality which might not help fully build up to ultimates, but you can obviously do some powerful stuff.
For example you cast Tezzeret the Seeker. You can [-1] to get Mana Vault, then [-2] to get Grim Monolith. Use Aminatou [-1] to blink Tezzeret, and so he'll come back with 4 loyalty. This time you can tap 6 mana (Grim and Vault) into your pool, and use the [+1] ability to untap them. Then [-4] to get The Chain Veil. At this stage you can go infinite.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin is nice with Oath of Teferi and Aminatou, as you can make opponents discard 3 cards and you draw 3, while then using the last activation to remove her from the game until next turn.
Teferi, Temporal Archmage can at the very least provide you with 12 mana (off lands) and/or some card draw. Good at shifting through cards you might have put on top with Aminatou [+1].
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria has a few combinations, but you can essentially remove 2 permanents, and draw two cards, and then untap 4 lands, so will kind of only cost you 1 mana to cast. But I mean you can draw 4 cards and untap 8 lands type thing.
You can see how you can run away with games quite quickly with a planewalker package.
[EDIT] I mean you can actually get 6 activation's if you use Aminatou [-1] twice on that planeswalker!!
And oath of Teferi can help blinking something else infinitely.
Oh damn, didn't think about that one. Seems dece.
Oh wait yeah, you need a bit more than just the Oath and Aminatou because oath returns at end of turn, but oath is still gonna be great in the deck.
The Oath of Teferi is particular good with other planewalkers, as you can get 4 activations with Aminatou.
You can use Aminatou [-1] to blink the other planeswalkers, so that a "fresh" copy comes into play and you can reuse twice. This trick resets the loyality which might not help fully build up to ultimates, but you can obviously do some powerful stuff.
For example you cast Tezzeret the Seeker. You can [-1] to get Mana Vault, then [-2] to get Grim Monolith. Use Aminatou [-1] to blink Tezzeret, and so he'll come back with 4 loyalty. This time you can tap 6 mana (Grim and Vault) into your pool, and use the [+1] ability to untap them. Then [-4] to get The Chain Veil. At this stage you can go infinite.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin is nice with Oath of Teferi and Aminatou, as you can make opponents discard 3 cards and you draw 3, while then using the last activation to remove her from the game until next turn.
Teferi, Temporal Archmage can at the very least provide you with 12 mana (off lands) and/or some card draw. Good at shifting through cards you might have put on top with Aminatou [+1].
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria has a few combinations, but you can essentially remove 2 permanents, and draw two cards, and then untap 4 lands, so will kind of only cost you 1 mana to cast. But I mean you can draw 4 cards and untap 8 lands type thing.
You can see how you can run away with games quite quickly with a planewalker package.
Yeah. as much as I hate PW you may have just convinced me to build Aminatou superfriends rn...
1) You need good cards to make another card good, 2) Said good cards must survive for Aminatou to get any extra value out of it and 3) Aminatou herself must survive as well.
How is what you said any different than Estrid? You literally need another card stapled onto a creature/land in order to get any any value out of Estrid.
a) The fact that there's a massive difference between ANY permanent and specifically a card with an ETB effect.
b) The fact that Point 2 is irrelevant for Estrid because she protects your good cards.
c) The fact that Estrid provides her own synergy for her +2 while Aminatou relies almost entirely on outside support.
d) The fact that every one of Estrid's effects give you both a reason and a reward to strengthen your board, while Aminatou's Ultimate only rewards you if you DON'T have a board.
e) The fact that there's a big difference between a +2 and a +1 when it comes to survivability for a Planeswalker.
^ This is pretty much a summary of a lot of the stuff I already said. I've been repeating myself a lot and things are getting quite derailed on this thread, so if there's any further discussion to be made, I think we can make a thread in New Card Discussion.
1) You need good cards to make another card good, 2) Said good cards must survive for Aminatou to get any extra value out of it and 3) Aminatou herself must survive as well.
How is what you said any different than Estrid? You literally need another card stapled onto a creature/land in order to get any any value out of Estrid.
a) The fact that there's a massive difference between ANY permanent and specifically a card with an ETB effect.
b) The fact that Point 2 is irrelevant for Estrid because she protects your good cards.
c) The fact that Estrid provides her own synergy for her +2 while Aminatou relies almost entirely on outside support.
d) The fact that every one of Estrid's effects give you both a reason and a reward to strengthen your board, while Aminatou's Ultimate only rewards you if you DON'T have a board.
e) The fact that there's a big difference between a +2 and a +1 when it comes to survivability for a Planeswalker.
^ This is pretty much a summary of a lot of the stuff I already said. I've been repeating myself a lot and things are getting quite derailed on this thread, so if there's any further discussion to be made, I think we can make a thread in New Card Discussion.
All planswalkers are susceptible to removal. They all have to be protected by your deck building. Maybe Aminatou isn't your cup of tea and that's fine, but I think you are over evaluating one card and devaluating another for similar reasons. Those masks are going to fall off on an unsummon. And her ultimate can be just as situational as Aminatou's and will always be done blindly where Aminatou's is not. While there are better blink commanders Aminatou has another color, and can manipulate things like miracle cards to the top of your deck. There are also twoplaneswalkers who do similair + abilities without those permanents being enchanted like Estrid.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
1) You need good cards to make another card good, 2) Said good cards must survive for Aminatou to get any extra value out of it and 3) Aminatou herself must survive as well.
How is what you said any different than Estrid? You literally need another card stapled onto a creature/land in order to get any any value out of Estrid.
a) The fact that there's a massive difference between ANY permanent and specifically a card with an ETB effect.
b) The fact that Point 2 is irrelevant for Estrid because she protects your good cards.
c) The fact that Estrid provides her own synergy for her +2 while Aminatou relies almost entirely on outside support.
d) The fact that every one of Estrid's effects give you both a reason and a reward to strengthen your board, while Aminatou's Ultimate only rewards you if you DON'T have a board.
e) The fact that there's a big difference between a +2 and a +1 when it comes to survivability for a Planeswalker.
^ This is pretty much a summary of a lot of the stuff I already said. I've been repeating myself a lot and things are getting quite derailed on this thread, so if there's any further discussion to be made, I think we can make a thread in New Card Discussion.
All planswalkers are susceptible to removal. They all have to be protected by your deck building. Maybe Aminatou isn't your cup of tea and that's fine, but I think you are over evaluating one card and devaluating another for similar reasons. Those masks are going to fall off on an unsummon. And her ultimate can be just as situational as Aminatou's and will always be done blindly where Aminatou's is not. While there are better blink commanders Aminatou has another color, and can manipulate things like miracle cards to the top of your deck. There are also twoplaneswalkers who do similair + abilities without those permanents being enchanted like Estrid.
Me: "Aminatou is too vulnerable because too many pieces need to be in place and well-protected for her to be any good."
You: "How is this any different from Estrid?"
Me: "Because Estrid protects the pieces that protects her, as well as being overall more resilient."
You "Every Planeswalker needs to be protected."
What are you even trying to say here?
Besides, Estrid's Ultimate is never blind. It reanimates your entire Graveyard, plus every Enchantment in the top 7 cards of your Deck. Meanwhile, Aminatou's Ultimate never being blind is irrelevant since, as I just mentioned, the board where Aminatou's Ultimate thrives (opponents with many big threats for you to steal, while you have little or none of them) is exactly the kind of board that will NEVER allow her to Ultimate as long as your opponents have the average mental capability of a paperweight.
Finally, Indestructible permanents can also be bounced/exiled. Does that makes Indestructible irrelevant in most scenarios?
1) You need good cards to make another card good, 2) Said good cards must survive for Aminatou to get any extra value out of it and 3) Aminatou herself must survive as well.
How is what you said any different than Estrid? You literally need another card stapled onto a creature/land in order to get any any value out of Estrid.
a) The fact that there's a massive difference between ANY permanent and specifically a card with an ETB effect.
b) The fact that Point 2 is irrelevant for Estrid because she protects your good cards.
c) The fact that Estrid provides her own synergy for her +2 while Aminatou relies almost entirely on outside support.
d) The fact that every one of Estrid's effects give you both a reason and a reward to strengthen your board, while Aminatou's Ultimate only rewards you if you DON'T have a board.
e) The fact that there's a big difference between a +2 and a +1 when it comes to survivability for a Planeswalker.
^ This is pretty much a summary of a lot of the stuff I already said. I've been repeating myself a lot and things are getting quite derailed on this thread, so if there's any further discussion to be made, I think we can make a thread in New Card Discussion.
All planswalkers are susceptible to removal. They all have to be protected by your deck building. Maybe Aminatou isn't your cup of tea and that's fine, but I think you are over evaluating one card and devaluating another for similar reasons. Those masks are going to fall off on an unsummon. And her ultimate can be just as situational as Aminatou's and will always be done blindly where Aminatou's is not. While there are better blink commanders Aminatou has another color, and can manipulate things like miracle cards to the top of your deck. There are also twoplaneswalkers who do similair + abilities without those permanents being enchanted like Estrid.
Me: "Aminatou is too vulnerable because too many pieces need to be in place and well-protected for her to be any good."
You: "How is this any different from Estrid?"
Me: "Because Estrid protects the pieces that protects her, as well as being overall more resilient."
You "Every Planeswalker needs to be protected."
What are you even trying to say here?
Besides, Estrid's Ultimate is never blind. It reanimates your entire Graveyard, plus every Enchantment in the top 7 cards of your Deck. Meanwhile, Aminatou's Ultimate never being blind is irrelevant since, as I just mentioned, the board where Aminatou's Ultimate thrives (opponents with many big threats for you to steal, while you have little or none of them) is exactly the kind of board that will NEVER allow her to Ultimate as long as your opponents have the average mental capability of a paperweight.
Finally, Indestructible permanents can also be bounced/exiled. Does that makes Indestructible irrelevant in most scenarios?
I am just confused that you are denouncing one planeswalker for needing pieces into play to protect it when you still need pieces to protect estrid. To get the most value out of estrid you have to a board that has multiple permanents enchanted to make that +2 worth anything. That’s building your board to fit estrids needs and yet you think that Aminatou is terrible cuz you have to include etb effects and have to build a board state to protect her. The masks are nice but they’re not going to get you to value town on their own. I don’t understand why you are staunchly defending one when they both have to be built around to work.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
Anyway, what I'm surprised, from a lore perspective, is that this is the first time that we ever see someone so young becoming already a Planeswalker. I believe this is the first child PW in all magic history. Wonder what was the event that made her spark so early.
From Gavin's article yesterday:
The white-blue-black (Esper) deck is helmed by one of the most unique Planeswalkers we've had yet: Aminatou. She looks like a kid . . . but don't let that fool you. Seemingly timeless, she is a fateshifter, a watcher who has the power to rewrite history—from small tweaks to radically changing entire worlds with the wave of her hand.
Did you guys read Aminatou's preview article? How she sparked is pretty great. She foresaw that she would someday, and just manipulated fate to do so prematurely.
Did you guys read Aminatou's preview article? How she sparked is pretty great. She foresaw that she would someday, and just manipulated fate to do so prematurely.
Yea that was pretty cool, but I was waiting literally the whole time for Alison to actually talk about the card, and that just didn't happen. Really disappointed in a fluff piece when each other intro article has had mechanical relevance. I guess this is an apology for not giving us story this week?
a) The fact that there's a massive difference between ANY permanent and specifically a card with an ETB effect.
b) The fact that Point 2 is irrelevant for Estrid because she protects your good cards.
c) The fact that Estrid provides her own synergy for her +2 while Aminatou relies almost entirely on outside support.
d) The fact that every one of Estrid's effects give you both a reason and a reward to strengthen your board, while Aminatou's Ultimate only rewards you if you DON'T have a board.
e) The fact that there's a big difference between a +2 and a +1 when it comes to survivability for a Planeswalker.
^ This is pretty much a summary of a lot of the stuff I already said. I've been repeating myself a lot and things are getting quite derailed on this thread, so if there's any further discussion to be made, I think we can make a thread in New Card Discussion.
Estrid is a terrible card. Have fun wasting your turns putting worthless mask tokens on your lands while your opponents are building a real board presence. She provides absolutely nothing of value unless your foot is already firmly on the gas peddle. Estrid is the definition of a "win-more" card.
The only objectively good walker in these precons is Saheeli. Her first +1 protects her and her second +1 is capable of winning you the game on the spot if your deck is built to take advantage of it. Turn 4 (or even turn 1) Eldrazi Titans sound a whooooole lot better than turn 4 mask tokens.
I'd would like to include that Aminatou's -1 is very interesting and may have some serious combo potential. I just don't know how to feel about the other two abilities. I'm still on the fence about this card. The hardest cards to evaluate are often the ones with the most potential so I'm remaining hopeful.
Yeah, Aminatou is really shaping up to be the most original planeswalker ever created. Reeeeally wish she'd make it into main-set canon.
Well, she exists now, so she can appear in booster products in the future. What we need to do is to communicate to WotC that we would love to see more of her and visit her home plane. It's about time for a new Africa inspired set.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Did you guys read Aminatou's preview article? How she sparked is pretty great. She foresaw that she would someday, and just manipulated fate to do so prematurely.
Yea that was pretty cool, but I was waiting literally the whole time for Alison to actually talk about the card, and that just didn't happen. Really disappointed in a fluff piece when each other intro article has had mechanical relevance. I guess this is an apology for not giving us story this week?
"Fluff piece"? So nice to see that an article speaking out about gender disparities only rates as a "fluff piece" for you.
Moving on, I love the Aminatou card, I love her character, and I especially love the article.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There are no divisions: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:28
Did you guys read Aminatou's preview article? How she sparked is pretty great. She foresaw that she would someday, and just manipulated fate to do so prematurely.
Yea that was pretty cool, but I was waiting literally the whole time for Alison to actually talk about the card, and that just didn't happen. Really disappointed in a fluff piece when each other intro article has had mechanical relevance. I guess this is an apology for not giving us story this week?
"Fluff piece"? So nice to see that an article speaking out about gender disparities only rates as a "fluff piece" for you.
Moving on, I love the Aminatou card, I love her character, and I especially love the article.
The art, the card, the story, the "fluff piece" (which honestly added so much to her character). She might be my favorite PW of all time tbh.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1) Estrid protects your beefy big creatures that can in turn protect Estrid. This is called "synergy", something that Aminatou lacks.
2) Are you really comparing "needs permanents with benefical ETB effects" with "needs any permanents"? Alrighty then. In other news, all decks are now Combo decks because cards need to combo with lands.
3) I actually can provide a board where Estrid thrives - any board with beefy creatures where your opponent have beefy creatures so your creatures can be beefier than your opponent's. Once again, people here are providing meaningless combos with Aminatou's Ult and situational 3-card infinite combos that, as I said, could be a potential way for Aminatou to see play but provides unfun gameplay for precon decks and will draw board hate. If you're tryharding in Commander with infinite combos, then sure, I guess Aminatou is not awful?
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
So if I have big beefy creatures like Luminate Primordial, Noxious Gearhulk, Massacre Wurm, Rune-Scarred Demon, .. and blink them out, that's not providing protection and synergy?
Let's go more medium to low range, Trinket Mage, Spellseeker, Reflector Mage, ..
The thing is that you CAN actually get value from Aminatou [-1], where as Estrid [-1] assumes that opponents might be interacting specifically with those card, otherwise it literally does nothing.
Jack - "I've got totem armor!"
Jill - "Cool, I'll assemble my combo and win."
I actually have no idea what you're referring to, but in other news, Aminatou at it's very least can provide you an extra mana each turn, by blinking out a land. This can make a huge difference in competitive games, and being at 3 mana to cast, means that you can curve out more consistently in vital turns.
Your whole thing has been about how Aminatou is bad (Tibalt bad, just to make sure we know how bad it is), and now you're introducing unfun and tryharding. As long as the distinction is made clear. It's consistent with your bias, so I understand the way you've approached this whole subject. Infinite combos are a thing in commander, so I can see you're from a pool of casual players. This is absolutely fine, but you've been pushing an argument of specifically calling a card bad, without really having the proper knowledge, both in a competitive sense and card knowledge.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
1) Minus Aminatou targeting Oath
2) Oath ETBs targeting a land
3) Minus Aminatou targeting Guardian
4) Guardian ETBs targeting Aminatou
5) Repeat steps 1-4 until your entire board is exiled by Oath
6) Cast Purge
7) End of turn your stuff comes back
8) Your opponents are sad
Estrid can also potentially untap half your board with a plus ability, making her a stricly better Teferi -1, but Magic is not about what happens when everything is going well. That's the main difference here, if things aren't going as planned, Estrid can still advance your game state with the threat of an all-upside Ult, or start ramping up with the Land Masks, while Aminatou... digs for cards very poorly and threatens an Ult that is only relevant if Aminatou is at risk of dying.
Additionally, the opposite could also be said for Aminatou, because she's a combo piece stapled to the most vulnerable card type ever.
Jill - "I'll cast this to start assembling my combo."
Jack - "Cool. I'll kill you AND your main combo piece."
Or do you really want to wait until like turn 9 to cast all your combo pieces in one go in colors without fast mana?
Sure, I guess that's fair at least. I wouldn't call casting a 3 mana spell to ramp up 1 mana a winning play, but I'll confess it was not an option I had considered. Estrid can kinda do the same in reverse, Masking a land and using her +2 during her next turn. In both cases, you can ramp up 1 mana but it takes 2 turns to do so (as Aminatou can't offset her own cost the turn she hits the board).
Yes, that part is a personal opinion, as I mentioned in the original post before someone commented about combo-ing her Ult with other effects and everything spiraled into other topics, even though it is not an unpopular one AFAIK, but it's not exclusively about personal taste either way. Planeswalkers are terrible combo pieces because, as I said on the first point, they are the most vulnerable type of card in the game. Drawing hate in Commander isn't just about the "feelbad", it's about politics, and trying to assemble combo pieces where one of said pieces is so vulnerable is a losing game. If you want a good Infinite Combo deck for Commander, go play General Tazri, Sharuum the Hegemon or Saffi Eriksdotter like all the other cool kids, as they are more resilient and have better combo potential.
How is what you said any different than Estrid? You literally need another card stapled onto a creature/land in order to get any any value out of Estrid.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
You can use Aminatou [-1] to blink the other planeswalkers, so that a "fresh" copy comes into play and you can reuse twice. This trick resets the loyality which might not help fully build up to ultimates, but you can obviously do some powerful stuff.
For example you cast Tezzeret the Seeker. You can [-1] to get Mana Vault, then [-2] to get Grim Monolith. Use Aminatou [-1] to blink Tezzeret, and so he'll come back with 4 loyalty. This time you can tap 6 mana (Grim and Vault) into your pool, and use the [+1] ability to untap them. Then [-4] to get The Chain Veil. At this stage you can go infinite.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion will allow you to get 12 tokens if protection is what you're after.
In a pinch Jace, Architect of Thought can -4/-0 attacking creatures.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin is nice with Oath of Teferi and Aminatou, as you can make opponents discard 3 cards and you draw 3, while then using the last activation to remove her from the game until next turn.
Teferi, Temporal Archmage can at the very least provide you with 12 mana (off lands) and/or some card draw. Good at shifting through cards you might have put on top with Aminatou [+1].
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria has a few combinations, but you can essentially remove 2 permanents, and draw two cards, and then untap 4 lands, so will kind of only cost you 1 mana to cast. But I mean you can draw 4 cards and untap 8 lands type thing.
You can see how you can run away with games quite quickly with a planewalker package.
[EDIT] I mean you can actually get 6 activation's if you use Aminatou [-1] twice on that planeswalker!!
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
a) The fact that there's a massive difference between ANY permanent and specifically a card with an ETB effect.
b) The fact that Point 2 is irrelevant for Estrid because she protects your good cards.
c) The fact that Estrid provides her own synergy for her +2 while Aminatou relies almost entirely on outside support.
d) The fact that every one of Estrid's effects give you both a reason and a reward to strengthen your board, while Aminatou's Ultimate only rewards you if you DON'T have a board.
e) The fact that there's a big difference between a +2 and a +1 when it comes to survivability for a Planeswalker.
^ This is pretty much a summary of a lot of the stuff I already said. I've been repeating myself a lot and things are getting quite derailed on this thread, so if there's any further discussion to be made, I think we can make a thread in New Card Discussion.
All planswalkers are susceptible to removal. They all have to be protected by your deck building. Maybe Aminatou isn't your cup of tea and that's fine, but I think you are over evaluating one card and devaluating another for similar reasons. Those masks are going to fall off on an unsummon. And her ultimate can be just as situational as Aminatou's and will always be done blindly where Aminatou's is not. While there are better blink commanders Aminatou has another color, and can manipulate things like miracle cards to the top of your deck. There are also two planeswalkers who do similair + abilities without those permanents being enchanted like Estrid.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
Me: "Aminatou is too vulnerable because too many pieces need to be in place and well-protected for her to be any good."
You: "How is this any different from Estrid?"
Me: "Because Estrid protects the pieces that protects her, as well as being overall more resilient."
You "Every Planeswalker needs to be protected."
What are you even trying to say here?
Besides, Estrid's Ultimate is never blind. It reanimates your entire Graveyard, plus every Enchantment in the top 7 cards of your Deck. Meanwhile, Aminatou's Ultimate never being blind is irrelevant since, as I just mentioned, the board where Aminatou's Ultimate thrives (opponents with many big threats for you to steal, while you have little or none of them) is exactly the kind of board that will NEVER allow her to Ultimate as long as your opponents have the average mental capability of a paperweight.
Finally, Indestructible permanents can also be bounced/exiled. Does that makes Indestructible irrelevant in most scenarios?
I am just confused that you are denouncing one planeswalker for needing pieces into play to protect it when you still need pieces to protect estrid. To get the most value out of estrid you have to a board that has multiple permanents enchanted to make that +2 worth anything. That’s building your board to fit estrids needs and yet you think that Aminatou is terrible cuz you have to include etb effects and have to build a board state to protect her. The masks are nice but they’re not going to get you to value town on their own. I don’t understand why you are staunchly defending one when they both have to be built around to work.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
From Gavin's article yesterday:
The white-blue-black (Esper) deck is helmed by one of the most unique Planeswalkers we've had yet: Aminatou. She looks like a kid . . . but don't let that fool you. Seemingly timeless, she is a fateshifter, a watcher who has the power to rewrite history—from small tweaks to radically changing entire worlds with the wave of her hand.
Link
Yea that was pretty cool, but I was waiting literally the whole time for Alison to actually talk about the card, and that just didn't happen. Really disappointed in a fluff piece when each other intro article has had mechanical relevance. I guess this is an apology for not giving us story this week?
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
The only objectively good walker in these precons is Saheeli. Her first +1 protects her and her second +1 is capable of winning you the game on the spot if your deck is built to take advantage of it. Turn 4 (or even turn 1) Eldrazi Titans sound a whooooole lot better than turn 4 mask tokens.
I'd would like to include that Aminatou's -1 is very interesting and may have some serious combo potential. I just don't know how to feel about the other two abilities. I'm still on the fence about this card. The hardest cards to evaluate are often the ones with the most potential so I'm remaining hopeful.
Well, she exists now, so she can appear in booster products in the future. What we need to do is to communicate to WotC that we would love to see more of her and visit her home plane. It's about time for a new Africa inspired set.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Moving on, I love the Aminatou card, I love her character, and I especially love the article.