Oh my god i'm getting really tired about this...
...5 images are ******* nothing! Maybe your precious Choryu is there, maybe not. You can't ******* know right now.
Okay but that's kinda the thing. They promised us information and made us sit through a stupid conversation about limited fodder for a set nobody cares about only to show us a handful of images that you yourself just said is nothing. This is such an insignificant amount of info to go on that they could have just made a text-only post on twitter about the deck themes and it would have caused a much more positive reaction. This is one of those "less-is-more" moments that they kinda bungled and it's gone on to frustrate a lot of people.
And about people getting frustrated that it doesn't look like certain characters will appear, those complaints, while unconfirmed, aren't really baseless. We can't assume that WotC would have gone out of their way to include requested characters if they aren't perfect fits for the deck themes.
The problem here is that certain expectations about the decks were set months ago by the commander product page mentioning planeswalkers. It sort of implied that the characters would be the focus of the decks, and therefore appeared the best opportunity to bring back requested characters, but this new info seems to contradict that now.
So, yeah, it's cool that we finally have a bant enchantment deck and an izzet artifact deck, but it's not exactly what most of us hoped and expected to see. That's why we're all *****ing. And telling people to stop *****ing isn't gonna improve anything. If we don't like something, it's our responsibility to be vocal about it, especially on a popular forum WotC is bound to dip into to gauge public opinion.
It's fine if you're excited and want to discuss WHY we're *****ing, but it's rude and counterproductive to tell other people not to voice their opinion.
Okay but that's kinda the thing. They promised us information and made us sit through a stupid conversation about limited fodder for a set nobody cares about only to show us a handful of images that you yourself just said is nothing. This is such an insignificant amount of info to go on that they could have just made a text-only post on twitter about the deck themes and it would have caused a much more positive reaction. This is one of those "less-is-more" moments that they kinda bungled and it's gone on to frustrate a lot of people.
And about people getting frustrated that it doesn't look like certain characters will appear, those complaints, while unconfirmed, aren't really baseless. We can't assume that WotC would have gone out of their way to include requested characters if they aren't perfect fits for the deck themes.
The problem here is that certain expectations about the decks were set months ago by the commander product page mentioning planeswalkers. It sort of implied that the characters would be the focus of the decks, and therefore appeared the best opportunity to bring back requested characters, but this new info seems to contradict that now.
So, yeah, it's cool that we finally have a bant enchantment deck and an izzet artifact deck, but it's not exactly what most of us hoped and expected to see. That's why we're all *****ing. And telling people to stop *****ing isn't gonna improve anything. If we don't like something, it's our responsibility to be vocal about it, especially on a popular forum WotC is bound to dip into to gauge public opinion.
It's fine if you're excited and want to discuss WHY we're *****ing, but it's rude and counterproductive to tell other people not to voice their opinion.
Thing is they said in advance that they would reveal the themes and some art. If you got your expectations up any higher than that that's your fault, not WotC's.
And the complaining is completely unfounded because we don't know what's in the deck. Not only that but they have been pretty good about dropping characters in here and there. And they shouldnt just dump them all in at once because you run put pretty quick that way and, like I mentioned above, that results in forced designs that don't fit the character like Ludevic. And on top of that with the return of the Core Sets and WotC saying that they would be using them to show the past, including new cards for the young elder dragons, the claim that the commander decks are the only place to get these characters is just payently false.
Express your opinion but at least try and make sure its got some sort of foundation.
Yeah. what Watchwolf said. Gavin was like: "Kamigawa! Commander! Woo!" and we got...nothing that suggests Kamigawa? Maybe spirit-looking girl is from there, but ehh? And now we have to wait a week to get articles and the full spoiler. Mark's column today was...amusing, but he could have given us a preview card for reading through that exercise. Hopefully they drop a major preview on Monday, whether it's a reprint or something genre-altering.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Yeah. what Watchwolf said. Gavin was like: "Kamigawa! Commander! Woo!" and we got...nothing that suggests Kamigawa? Maybe spirit-looking girl is from there, but ehh? And now we have to wait a week to get articles and the full spoiler. Mark's column today was...amusing, but he could have given us a preview card for reading through that exercise. Hopefully they drop a major preview on Monday, whether it's a reprint or something genre-altering.
This is also disingenuous. No one said there would be Kamigawa cards or themes or anything else in the commander decks. He said that fans of Kamigawa should "stay tuned." It was fans who made the association between commander and the Kamigawa comment.
This is also disingenuous. No one said there would be Kamigawa cards or themes or anything else in the commander decks. He said that fans of Kamigawa should "stay tuned." It was fans who made the association between commander and the Kamigawa comment.
But it IS WotC's fault for not meeting our expectations. Both the commander product page AND Gavin are ground-0 sources and both said very specific things that created very specific expectations. Maybe Gavin's comments weren't directed toward the stream, but there's no defense for the fact that the product page sold us on four decks built around planeswalker commanders, then they come back and tell use that's not true.
It's WotC's responsibility to control our expectations, and that means clarifying what needs to be clarified before releasing contradictory information, or better yet, not letting the first thing we see about a product point us in the wrong direction.
So, you're correct in saying that they never specifically said anything about what the commander decks would be like before this stream, but there was enough stuff floating around that can be traced directly back to WotC that the public's expectations were evidently way off-base. That's not our fault, it's theirs.
But it IS WotC's fault for not meeting our expectations. Both the commander product page AND Gavin are ground-0 sources and both said very specific things that created very specific expectations. Maybe Gavin's comments weren't directed toward the stream, but there's no defense for the fact that the product page sold us on four decks built around planeswalker commanders, then they come back and tell use that's not true.
It's WotC's responsibility to control our expectations, and that means clarifying what needs to be clarified before releasing contradictory information, or better yet, not letting the first thing we see about a product point us in the wrong direction.
So, you're correct in saying that they never specifically said anything about what the commander decks would be like before this stream, but there was enough stuff floating around that can be traced directly back to WotC that the public's expectations were evidently way off-base. That's not our fault, it's theirs.
The product page vaguely hints at planeswalker commanders. Now, I didn't actually get to watch the stream so did they say that there won't be planeswalker? Because, again, they said themes and art. Not cards, not characters nothing. You got caught up in user generated hype updrafts. In todays hype culture theres only so much WotC can do to keep it under control when people make false connections and run with them as if they're fact, or have unreasonable demands like wanting incredibly obscure characters from planes WotC has said they don't like. Whether or not you think it's they're responsibility or not they simply cannot.
This is also disingenuous. No one said there would be Kamigawa cards or themes or anything else in the commander decks. He said that fans of Kamigawa should "stay tuned." It was fans who made the association between commander and the Kamigawa comment.
But it IS WotC's fault for not meeting our expectations. Both the commander product page AND Gavin are ground-0 sources and both said very specific things that created very specific expectations. Maybe Gavin's comments weren't directed toward the stream, but there's no defense for the fact that the product page sold us on four decks built around planeswalker commanders, then they come back and tell use that's not true.
It's WotC's responsibility to control our expectations, and that means clarifying what needs to be clarified before releasing contradictory information, or better yet, not letting the first thing we see about a product point us in the wrong direction.
So, you're correct in saying that they never specifically said anything about what the commander decks would be like before this stream, but there was enough stuff floating around that can be traced directly back to WotC that the public's expectations were evidently way off-base. That's not our fault, it's theirs.
WoTC literally said that this stream would reveal deck themes and some art. That's exactly what they did, yet people are disatisfied and claim that WoTC isn't meeting their expectations.
Claiming that it's WoTC's fault that you wanted more than what they showed is ridiculous.
You're right that they should try to manage expectations, but they literally said exactly what was going to happen, and people expected more. Not their fault.
They said they only show some art during the actual stream...they didn't clarify any of that beforehand as far as I am aware. So I don't think people were to outline expecting at least one face card this time around. I mean compare this to the last time we had Planeswalker Face cards where Teferi was revealed early to build hype. An Oldwalker Finally Getting a Walker Card and back after Time Spiral. Compared to what half a dozen pics of characters no one knows who they are? No comparison
They said they only show some art during the actual stream...they didn't clarify any of that beforehand as far as I am aware. So I don't think people were to outline expecting at least one face card this time around. I mean compare this to the last time we had Planeswalker Face cards where Teferi was revealed early to build hype. An Oldwalker Finally Getting a Walker Card and back after Time Spiral. Compared to what half a dozen pics of characters no one knows who they are? No comparison
I completely agree that past decks that revealed a card were superior to this and last year's reveals.
Amd with that art, some of them could be face cards. My money is on the Therosian being a face card.
They said they only show some art during the actual stream...they didn't clarify any of that beforehand as far as I am aware. So I don't think people were to outline expecting at least one face card this time around. I mean compare this to the last time we had Planeswalker Face cards where Teferi was revealed early to build hype. An Oldwalker Finally Getting a Walker Card and back after Time Spiral. Compared to what half a dozen pics of characters no one knows who they are? No comparison
WoTC literally said that this stream would reveal deck themes and some art. That's exactly what they did, yet people are disatisfied and claim that WoTC isn't meeting their expectations.
Claiming that it's WoTC's fault that you wanted more than what they showed is ridiculous.
You're right that they should try to manage expectations, but they literally said exactly what was going to happen, and people expected more. Not their fault.
You're ignoring the two important bits I've mentioned multiple times already: Gavin's quote and the commander product page's description.
Whether or not they intended to set the expectation that these four decks would be built around planeswalker characters or that they might have something to do with Kamigawa, that's what happened. It's on WotC to recognize that and proactively try to correct it before giving us more information.
Yes, they told us that they would be revealing art and themes only, but most of us were expecting to be told which planeswalkers these decks would be built around (themes), or at least see art of recognizable planeswalker characters to get us excited, or literally anythig at all that's related to Kamigawa, but instead, we got random new planeswalker we've never seen before (which means 1 fewer old character to get a card) and generic Zombie #4759. So, yeah, we have reason to feel let down and partially mislead.
WoTC literally said that this stream would reveal deck themes and some art. That's exactly what they did, yet people are disatisfied and claim that WoTC isn't meeting their expectations.
Claiming that it's WoTC's fault that you wanted more than what they showed is ridiculous.
You're right that they should try to manage expectations, but they literally said exactly what was going to happen, and people expected more. Not their fault.
You're ignoring the two important bits I've mentioned multiple times already: Gavin's quote and the commander product page's description.
Whether or not they intended to set the expectation that these four decks would be built around planeswalker characters or that they might have something to do with Kamigawa, that's what happened. It's on WotC to recognize that and proactively try to correct it before giving us more information.
Yes, they told us that they would be revealing art and themes only, but most of us were expecting to be told which planeswalkers these decks would be built around (themes), or at least see art of recognizable planeswalker characters to get us excited, or literally anythig at all that's related to Kamigawa, but instead, we got random new planeswalker we've never seen before (which means 1 fewer old character to get a card) and generic Zombie #4759. So, yeah, we have reason to feel let down and partially mislead.
Lol. "Yes, WotC told us specifically what to expect, but we didn't listen and expected something else anyways, and now we are unhappy and have good reason to feel misled." I really hope this is not your general attitude in life, because I do not think it will get you very far.
Your dissatisfaction here is entirely of your own making.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
WoTC literally said that this stream would reveal deck themes and some art. That's exactly what they did, yet people are disatisfied and claim that WoTC isn't meeting their expectations.
Claiming that it's WoTC's fault that you wanted more than what they showed is ridiculous.
You're right that they should try to manage expectations, but they literally said exactly what was going to happen, and people expected more. Not their fault.
You're ignoring the two important bits I've mentioned multiple times already: Gavin's quote and the commander product page's description.
Whether or not they intended to set the expectation that these four decks would be built around planeswalker characters or that they might have something to do with Kamigawa, that's what happened. It's on WotC to recognize that and proactively try to correct it before giving us more information.
Yes, they told us that they would be revealing art and themes only, but most of us were expecting to be told which planeswalkers these decks would be built around (themes), or at least see art of recognizable planeswalker characters to get us excited, or literally anythig at all that's related to Kamigawa, but instead, we got random new planeswalker we've never seen before (which means 1 fewer old character to get a card) and generic Zombie #4759. So, yeah, we have reason to feel let down and partially mislead.
You're right. I am ignoring it. That's because that information had nothing to do with the stream at all. The stream was going to reveal the themes and some art. It did just that.
It's not WoTC's fault you looked at information from elsewhere and thought that it was relevant to the stream.
You state it yourself. They were only showing themes and art. You then state that many people are disappointed because they showed what they said they would.
When it comes to the Kamigawa thing you get no sympathy from me. That's all on you. Like I said before WotC isn't responsible for people making erroneous connections between otherwise unconnected statements.
As for the expecting walkers, while I can feel that just because it would have been cool, again thats not on WotC. When I heard theme I didn't think they were gonna show anyone in particular or give us walkers. I just figured they'd tell us the overarching theme of the deck. Which is exactly what they did. I expect them to save the juicy stuff to be reserved for spoiler season when M19 hype has died off a little. Like I said, it would have been great to get more but, regardless of what the product page says, you created the expectation. That is not WotC's fault and not theor responsibility.
Oh my god i'm getting really tired about this...
...5 images are ******* nothing! Maybe your precious Choryu is there, maybe not. You can't ******* know right now.
Okay but that's kinda the thing. They promised us information and made us sit through a stupid conversation about limited fodder for a set nobody cares about only to show us a handful of images that you yourself just said is nothing. This is such an insignificant amount of info to go on that they could have just made a text-only post on twitter about the deck themes and it would have caused a much more positive reaction. This is one of those "less-is-more" moments that they kinda bungled and it's gone on to frustrate a lot of people.
And about people getting frustrated that it doesn't look like certain characters will appear, those complaints, while unconfirmed, aren't really baseless. We can't assume that WotC would have gone out of their way to include requested characters if they aren't perfect fits for the deck themes.
The problem here is that certain expectations about the decks were set months ago by the commander product page mentioning planeswalkers. It sort of implied that the characters would be the focus of the decks, and therefore appeared the best opportunity to bring back requested characters, but this new info seems to contradict that now.
So, yeah, it's cool that we finally have a bant enchantment deck and an izzet artifact deck, but it's not exactly what most of us hoped and expected to see. That's why we're all *****ing. And telling people to stop *****ing isn't gonna improve anything. If we don't like something, it's our responsibility to be vocal about it, especially on a popular forum WotC is bound to dip into to gauge public opinion.
It's fine if you're excited and want to discuss WHY we're *****ing, but it's rude and counterproductive to tell other people not to voice their opinion.
I'm glad someone understands. They've built this hype, only to grind it out and have it all lead to what feels like imminent disappointment. The very first complaints were about that agonizing stream, then about not seeing anything we anticipated as far as the product page description. Go figure that trickling hints blossom into diverging expectations. Why set that up for themselves?
And no, the Kamigawa expectations are not our fault, either. Gavin literally took credit for slipping O-Kagachi and Kamigawa cards in Commander products and in the same breath said that Kamigawa fans should stay tuned, in a panel about Brawl, which is a format that borrows from Commander.
Not to mention we just had 3 Ravnica sets announced. So rightfully, no one anticipated his comments to mean a Return to Kamigawa block. Heaven forbid people make the reasonable conjecture that someone responsible for Kamigawa Commander cards be hinting at a Commander product to be released in a month, a supplemental set described as the best (and perhaps only) place to see Kamigawa cards at all, according to MaRo and others.
And for the record, complaining about complaints it still complaining. So don't cast the first stone on me. Consider it a debate if you must, but I am voicing my opinion so that WOTC can see my personal opinions on how this spoiler season has been handled. Overall, I feel like they've taken a page out of Konami's book with Yugioh because I felt very disrespected. Only an enfranchised player would tune in and anxiously await news like that. Yet they're toying around with this which is very off-putting and discouraging to those that bother. And those who don't care still won't.
EDIT: I'm excited to see McKinnon and THEROS art, but I think this spoiler season could have been handled better. I'll leave it at that.
I'll say one thing: The ONE product that I've never been disappointed in is the commander decks. Even last years decks were good and I've made it a habit of just automatically pre-ordering every set when it goes up. 2017 felt a bit on the weak side, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed we'll see more things like Chromatic Lantern, Lightning Greaves, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Eternal Witness, and of course Command Beacon.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You're right. I am ignoring it. That's because that information had nothing to do with the stream at all. The stream was going to reveal the themes and some art. It did just that.
It's not WoTC's fault you looked at information from elsewhere and thought that it was relevant to the stream.
You state it yourself. They were only showing themes and art. You then state that many people are disappointed because they showed what they said they would.
Firstly, you're not going to sway me or many others by taking snippets of my arguments out of context.
Secondly, as I have said I think three times now, we aren't looking at information "from elsewhere." Everything that shaped MY expectations came from Gavin, the commander product page, AND the preamble to the stream. In other words, they all came from Wizards of the Coast. Not leaks. Not rumors. Not alleged conversations with investors. Actual direct quotes from actual WotC personnel. And at least two of these three quotes are directly related to Commander 2018. Gavin's quote was admittedly vague, but as a few others have already said, given the timing and upcoming products, the most likely context for his hint IS Commander 2018.
Again, whether WotC intended to or not, these three things painted a picture in my mind of what Commander 2018 is supposed to look like, and the information from the stream hasn't yet come close to resembling that picture. I'm speaking for myself here, but I'm sure I'm not in the minority on the matter.
Firstly, you're not going to sway me or many others by taking snippets of my arguments out of context.
Secondly, as I have said I think three times now, we aren't looking at information "from elsewhere." Everything that shaped MY expectations came from Gavin, the commander product page, AND the preamble to the stream. In other words, they all came from Wizards of the Coast. Not leaks. Not rumors. Not alleged conversations with investors. Actual direct quotes from actual WotC personnel. And at least two of these three quotes are directly related to Commander 2018. Gavin's quote was admittedly vague, but as a few others have already said, given the timing and upcoming products, the most likely context for his hint IS Commander 2018.
Again, whether WotC intended to or not, these three things painted a picture in my mind of what Commander 2018 is supposed to look like, and the information from the stream hasn't yet come close to resembling that picture. I'm speaking for myself here, but I'm sure I'm not in the minority on the matter.
Even if the quote from Gavin was intended for C18, which hey it may well be, thats not reason to expect that this brief overview of the product will show exactly that.
And of course the stream doesn't look like the picture you painted. Because the stream was just a tiny portion of what the product is. This wasn't intended to be a huge dump of info. There is yet more to come. Why is it entirely WotC's responsibility to manage your hype? Do you not feel like you have any part in tempering your own expectations? I'm down for having huge hype for a product as a whole. But why would you have so many expectations for a minor preview and no responsibility in managing that?
That's the point... I didn't criticize the lack of Kamigawa in this product. I can't yet. I've been criticizing how this spoiler season has been handled, dropping hints to build up certain expectations, then presenting the first information in a way that sets up a feeling of dread and imminent disappointment. It feels like toying with people, which is disrespectful and dishonest, even if it's a means of "building hype." This isn't the way to do it, or to treat enfranchised players that tune in and care. We've had literal face cards months, almost a year in advance before. Even relative to other spoiler seasons, this one feels really discouraging for those that truly cared.
You're right. I am ignoring it. That's because that information had nothing to do with the stream at all. The stream was going to reveal the themes and some art. It did just that.
It's not WoTC's fault you looked at information from elsewhere and thought that it was relevant to the stream.
You state it yourself. They were only showing themes and art. You then state that many people are disappointed because they showed what they said they would.
Firstly, you're not going to sway me or many others by taking snippets of my arguments out of context.
Secondly, as I have said I think three times now, we aren't looking at information "from elsewhere." Everything that shaped MY expectations came from Gavin, the commander product page, AND the preamble to the stream. In other words, they all came from Wizards of the Coast. Not leaks. Not rumors. Not alleged conversations with investors. Actual direct quotes from actual WotC personnel. And at least two of these three quotes are directly related to Commander 2018. Gavin's quote was admittedly vague, but as a few others have already said, given the timing and upcoming products, the most likely context for his hint IS Commander 2018.
Again, whether WotC intended to or not, these three things painted a picture in my mind of what Commander 2018 is supposed to look like, and the information from the stream hasn't yet come close to resembling that picture. I'm speaking for myself here, but I'm sure I'm not in the minority on the matter.
One was a comment by Verhy, one was a description of the product, one was a description of the stream itself. Three different places. You can't blame WoTC for you putting those three things together.
I fully understand being disappointed. I wish they'd go back to spoiling a card early on like Teferi, Gisa, or Jeleva. But I'll settle for knowing the deck archetypes, brcause last year, we knew nothing but the decks were tribal.
Starting the spoiler engine now and getting people excited is a double edged sword, though. If they start now, than the window of opportunity on getting the decks at a lower price is also shortened. Commander decks tend to always punch above their weight on the market once they are spoiled, with one or two often spiking due to demand.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Maybe Gavin's comments weren't directed toward the stream, but there's no defense for the fact that the product page sold us on four decks built around planeswalker commanders, then they come back and tell use that's not true.
This cannot stand. The stream does not tell you anything that contradicts "Call on powerful planeswalkers and deploy their signature strategies to make sure you're the last player standing." [>] That statement is still true. In fact the theme reveal clarifies what "their signature strategies" are. The product page mentioned those strategies and the theme reveal enumerates them. When talking about "themes" a mechanical theme is a reasonable expectation just as much if not more than a 'top-down theme'.
The product page does not tell you what came first: the planeswalker or the strategie, just that both are expected parts - the stream goes into more detail on one of the two - as promised.
I personally wanted more and hoped for it because there is precedent for more significant reveals, and it is okay to be disappointed and even call the marketing in question by underdelivering within the realms of expectation.
But your criticism implies they lied to you, told you something that is "not true" and that is not conclussive.
I for example expect still planeswalkers and now expect them to be either designed towards the signature strategy revealed or picked with the strategy in mind. Which is indirect information towards the planeswalkers. You wished for more direct information? That's fine. You imply the information invalidates earlier information? You seem to be just too narrow in your focus.
You literally had approximately two data points to latch onto and chose the one that wouldn't be satisfied. It happens.
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BTW, have you watched the whole sream/video the Kamigawa quote is from? It's from minute 14 of a 35 minute video and I have not verified that the quotes context is not just that video and he talks about Kamigawa within the very same video. At the very least he makes the statement right after stating that he likes to "slip in" Kamigawa cards like O-Kagachi into supplemental product. That doesn't actually sound like "main theme" or "face character" as much as "individual cards". Maybe this time we get twice as many references to Kamigawa than last year, but that still wouldn't equate to a dedicated deck theme.
The fact that from context it was a throw away comment and may very well be a spontaneous rather than scripted/planned comment calls into question any criticism that relies on the quote. If the quote came from a written post to social media just containing that line, I would consider likely part of a conscious marketing strategy, but the treatment focussing on that line as clickbait stand-alone statement were AFAIK the media reporting on the incident not WotC.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I was one of the people who read that comment from Gavin and I'm looking forward to new Kamigawa-flavored cards. I went into the stream thinking that they'd maybe show one AW hinting at it. They didn't. And literally everything I thought was "well, no Kamigawa pictures … but some of the others are pretty cool." Because I knew it would be a minor art showcase, they hyped it up relatively little beforehand and spoilers start next week anyway. Yet there are people here that feel toyed with, misled, disrespected and think that WotC is doing a terrible job of building hype (always the best criticism /s) … come on. You make it sound like they put out an anmouncement before the stream saying "tune in if you want to see planeswalker commanders from Kamigawa!", but they didn't. The three points of information we had may have all been from WotC or WotC-affiliated sources, but there were still from three different places and one of them had already been accessible for a while (the product information page). Say what you will, but this is a classic case of over-enfranchised players looking at the details too much, making too many connections and then being pissed when they didn't get what they dreamed up for themselves.
This will make me sound like a jerk, but get a life. I mean this in the most inoffensive way possible - I know we're all nerds here, but there are other things to worry about in life, and if you just wanted WotC to read your complaints (feedback), well … there's already 9 pages of it. Meanwhile, it's literally only one (1) week until we get to see actual cards.
I'll say one thing: The ONE product that I've never been disappointed in is the commander decks. Even last years decks were good and I've made it a habit of just automatically pre-ordering every set when it goes up. 2017 felt a bit on the weak side, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed we'll see more things like Chromatic Lantern, Lightning Greaves, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Eternal Witness, and of course Command Beacon.
I agree, both money and deck structure these always do pretty well. I think the weakness of Commander 2017 is just the inhered weakness you have with tribal deck, but I bought the cat deck and my friend got vampires and wizards and we been using them to help teach people how to play commander since tribal decks are simple to learn to play.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Oranges are great, right? People who like oranges are in for a treat!
We'll be bringing you some fruit in a couple days.
Here are some bananas.
It's reasonable to think that two statements that could be simultaneously true coming from the same company are in fact related. That said, I'm not too broken up about it. We'll be seeing new cards pretty soon anyway. This also doesn't mean we won't still be getting oranges.
And about people getting frustrated that it doesn't look like certain characters will appear, those complaints, while unconfirmed, aren't really baseless. We can't assume that WotC would have gone out of their way to include requested characters if they aren't perfect fits for the deck themes.
The problem here is that certain expectations about the decks were set months ago by the commander product page mentioning planeswalkers. It sort of implied that the characters would be the focus of the decks, and therefore appeared the best opportunity to bring back requested characters, but this new info seems to contradict that now.
So, yeah, it's cool that we finally have a bant enchantment deck and an izzet artifact deck, but it's not exactly what most of us hoped and expected to see. That's why we're all *****ing. And telling people to stop *****ing isn't gonna improve anything. If we don't like something, it's our responsibility to be vocal about it, especially on a popular forum WotC is bound to dip into to gauge public opinion.
It's fine if you're excited and want to discuss WHY we're *****ing, but it's rude and counterproductive to tell other people not to voice their opinion.
Thing is they said in advance that they would reveal the themes and some art. If you got your expectations up any higher than that that's your fault, not WotC's.
And the complaining is completely unfounded because we don't know what's in the deck. Not only that but they have been pretty good about dropping characters in here and there. And they shouldnt just dump them all in at once because you run put pretty quick that way and, like I mentioned above, that results in forced designs that don't fit the character like Ludevic. And on top of that with the return of the Core Sets and WotC saying that they would be using them to show the past, including new cards for the young elder dragons, the claim that the commander decks are the only place to get these characters is just payently false.
Express your opinion but at least try and make sure its got some sort of foundation.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
This is also disingenuous. No one said there would be Kamigawa cards or themes or anything else in the commander decks. He said that fans of Kamigawa should "stay tuned." It was fans who made the association between commander and the Kamigawa comment.
It's WotC's responsibility to control our expectations, and that means clarifying what needs to be clarified before releasing contradictory information, or better yet, not letting the first thing we see about a product point us in the wrong direction.
So, you're correct in saying that they never specifically said anything about what the commander decks would be like before this stream, but there was enough stuff floating around that can be traced directly back to WotC that the public's expectations were evidently way off-base. That's not our fault, it's theirs.
The product page vaguely hints at planeswalker commanders. Now, I didn't actually get to watch the stream so did they say that there won't be planeswalker? Because, again, they said themes and art. Not cards, not characters nothing. You got caught up in user generated hype updrafts. In todays hype culture theres only so much WotC can do to keep it under control when people make false connections and run with them as if they're fact, or have unreasonable demands like wanting incredibly obscure characters from planes WotC has said they don't like. Whether or not you think it's they're responsibility or not they simply cannot.
WoTC literally said that this stream would reveal deck themes and some art. That's exactly what they did, yet people are disatisfied and claim that WoTC isn't meeting their expectations.
Claiming that it's WoTC's fault that you wanted more than what they showed is ridiculous.
You're right that they should try to manage expectations, but they literally said exactly what was going to happen, and people expected more. Not their fault.
I completely agree that past decks that revealed a card were superior to this and last year's reveals.
Amd with that art, some of them could be face cards. My money is on the Therosian being a face card.
http://epicstream.com/news/Heres-When-The-Magic-The-Gatherings-Commander-2018-Spoilers-Are-Coming
They said several days in advance what they would show.
Whether or not they intended to set the expectation that these four decks would be built around planeswalker characters or that they might have something to do with Kamigawa, that's what happened. It's on WotC to recognize that and proactively try to correct it before giving us more information.
Yes, they told us that they would be revealing art and themes only, but most of us were expecting to be told which planeswalkers these decks would be built around (themes), or at least see art of recognizable planeswalker characters to get us excited, or literally anythig at all that's related to Kamigawa, but instead, we got random new planeswalker we've never seen before (which means 1 fewer old character to get a card) and generic Zombie #4759. So, yeah, we have reason to feel let down and partially mislead.
Your dissatisfaction here is entirely of your own making.
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You're right. I am ignoring it. That's because that information had nothing to do with the stream at all. The stream was going to reveal the themes and some art. It did just that.
It's not WoTC's fault you looked at information from elsewhere and thought that it was relevant to the stream.
You state it yourself. They were only showing themes and art. You then state that many people are disappointed because they showed what they said they would.
As for the expecting walkers, while I can feel that just because it would have been cool, again thats not on WotC. When I heard theme I didn't think they were gonna show anyone in particular or give us walkers. I just figured they'd tell us the overarching theme of the deck. Which is exactly what they did. I expect them to save the juicy stuff to be reserved for spoiler season when M19 hype has died off a little. Like I said, it would have been great to get more but, regardless of what the product page says, you created the expectation. That is not WotC's fault and not theor responsibility.
And no, the Kamigawa expectations are not our fault, either. Gavin literally took credit for slipping O-Kagachi and Kamigawa cards in Commander products and in the same breath said that Kamigawa fans should stay tuned, in a panel about Brawl, which is a format that borrows from Commander.
Not to mention we just had 3 Ravnica sets announced. So rightfully, no one anticipated his comments to mean a Return to Kamigawa block. Heaven forbid people make the reasonable conjecture that someone responsible for Kamigawa Commander cards be hinting at a Commander product to be released in a month, a supplemental set described as the best (and perhaps only) place to see Kamigawa cards at all, according to MaRo and others.
And for the record, complaining about complaints it still complaining. So don't cast the first stone on me. Consider it a debate if you must, but I am voicing my opinion so that WOTC can see my personal opinions on how this spoiler season has been handled. Overall, I feel like they've taken a page out of Konami's book with Yugioh because I felt very disrespected. Only an enfranchised player would tune in and anxiously await news like that. Yet they're toying around with this which is very off-putting and discouraging to those that bother. And those who don't care still won't.
EDIT: I'm excited to see McKinnon and THEROS art, but I think this spoiler season could have been handled better. I'll leave it at that.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Secondly, as I have said I think three times now, we aren't looking at information "from elsewhere." Everything that shaped MY expectations came from Gavin, the commander product page, AND the preamble to the stream. In other words, they all came from Wizards of the Coast. Not leaks. Not rumors. Not alleged conversations with investors. Actual direct quotes from actual WotC personnel. And at least two of these three quotes are directly related to Commander 2018. Gavin's quote was admittedly vague, but as a few others have already said, given the timing and upcoming products, the most likely context for his hint IS Commander 2018.
Again, whether WotC intended to or not, these three things painted a picture in my mind of what Commander 2018 is supposed to look like, and the information from the stream hasn't yet come close to resembling that picture. I'm speaking for myself here, but I'm sure I'm not in the minority on the matter.
Even if the quote from Gavin was intended for C18, which hey it may well be, thats not reason to expect that this brief overview of the product will show exactly that.
And of course the stream doesn't look like the picture you painted. Because the stream was just a tiny portion of what the product is. This wasn't intended to be a huge dump of info. There is yet more to come. Why is it entirely WotC's responsibility to manage your hype? Do you not feel like you have any part in tempering your own expectations? I'm down for having huge hype for a product as a whole. But why would you have so many expectations for a minor preview and no responsibility in managing that?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
One was a comment by Verhy, one was a description of the product, one was a description of the stream itself. Three different places. You can't blame WoTC for you putting those three things together.
I fully understand being disappointed. I wish they'd go back to spoiling a card early on like Teferi, Gisa, or Jeleva. But I'll settle for knowing the deck archetypes, brcause last year, we knew nothing but the decks were tribal.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This cannot stand. The stream does not tell you anything that contradicts "Call on powerful planeswalkers and deploy their signature strategies to make sure you're the last player standing." [>] That statement is still true. In fact the theme reveal clarifies what "their signature strategies" are. The product page mentioned those strategies and the theme reveal enumerates them. When talking about "themes" a mechanical theme is a reasonable expectation just as much if not more than a 'top-down theme'.
The product page does not tell you what came first: the planeswalker or the strategie, just that both are expected parts - the stream goes into more detail on one of the two - as promised.
I personally wanted more and hoped for it because there is precedent for more significant reveals, and it is okay to be disappointed and even call the marketing in question by underdelivering within the realms of expectation.
But your criticism implies they lied to you, told you something that is "not true" and that is not conclussive.
I for example expect still planeswalkers and now expect them to be either designed towards the signature strategy revealed or picked with the strategy in mind. Which is indirect information towards the planeswalkers. You wished for more direct information? That's fine. You imply the information invalidates earlier information? You seem to be just too narrow in your focus.
You literally had approximately two data points to latch onto and chose the one that wouldn't be satisfied. It happens.
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BTW, have you watched the whole sream/video the Kamigawa quote is from? It's from minute 14 of a 35 minute video and I have not verified that the quotes context is not just that video and he talks about Kamigawa within the very same video. At the very least he makes the statement right after stating that he likes to "slip in" Kamigawa cards like O-Kagachi into supplemental product. That doesn't actually sound like "main theme" or "face character" as much as "individual cards". Maybe this time we get twice as many references to Kamigawa than last year, but that still wouldn't equate to a dedicated deck theme.
The fact that from context it was a throw away comment and may very well be a spontaneous rather than scripted/planned comment calls into question any criticism that relies on the quote. If the quote came from a written post to social media just containing that line, I would consider likely part of a conscious marketing strategy, but the treatment focussing on that line as clickbait stand-alone statement were AFAIK the media reporting on the incident not WotC.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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I was one of the people who read that comment from Gavin and I'm looking forward to new Kamigawa-flavored cards. I went into the stream thinking that they'd maybe show one AW hinting at it. They didn't. And literally everything I thought was "well, no Kamigawa pictures … but some of the others are pretty cool." Because I knew it would be a minor art showcase, they hyped it up relatively little beforehand and spoilers start next week anyway. Yet there are people here that feel toyed with, misled, disrespected and think that WotC is doing a terrible job of building hype (always the best criticism /s) … come on. You make it sound like they put out an anmouncement before the stream saying "tune in if you want to see planeswalker commanders from Kamigawa!", but they didn't. The three points of information we had may have all been from WotC or WotC-affiliated sources, but there were still from three different places and one of them had already been accessible for a while (the product information page). Say what you will, but this is a classic case of over-enfranchised players looking at the details too much, making too many connections and then being pissed when they didn't get what they dreamed up for themselves.
This will make me sound like a jerk, but get a life. I mean this in the most inoffensive way possible - I know we're all nerds here, but there are other things to worry about in life, and if you just wanted WotC to read your complaints (feedback), well … there's already 9 pages of it. Meanwhile, it's literally only one (1) week until we get to see actual cards.
I agree, both money and deck structure these always do pretty well. I think the weakness of Commander 2017 is just the inhered weakness you have with tribal deck, but I bought the cat deck and my friend got vampires and wizards and we been using them to help teach people how to play commander since tribal decks are simple to learn to play.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
We'll be bringing you some fruit in a couple days.
Here are some bananas.
It's reasonable to think that two statements that could be simultaneously true coming from the same company are in fact related. That said, I'm not too broken up about it. We'll be seeing new cards pretty soon anyway. This also doesn't mean we won't still be getting oranges.