It's going to be on the weekly MTG show, per the link in the first post, at 2pm PT.
So for those of us who already have to track three different time zones just to keep in contact with teir family members. Is this going up in ca. 4 hours from now?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I'm predicting that the Commanders are Legendary Creatures that have the ability to fetch Planeswalker cards, if not put them directly on the battlefield.
I don't intend to argue, but do you really think Bo Levar and Commodore Guff deserve cards more than Serra and Urza? Personally, I'll be super disappointed if they skip over either Serra or Urza just to give us either of the "wacky moustache guys". Granted, I'll be even more disappointed if they give the slots to present-day planeswalkers like Saheeli or Daretti.
Actually, I do.
Serra is popular and all, but how will you make a EDH deck with her iconic traits (angels, healing, purity, enchantment) within the mono-white region without being boring (or overpowered)? I can respect a character like her, but Bo Levar, Guff, and Windgrace are just far more interesting, because they all have strength and personality flaws.
Urza is an AWESOME character, but how do you create a card under his name without being overpowered? Taysir could at the least be presented via multiple cards to imply his strength in separation and reuniting all of his "selves", Urza has always been a single figure.
I know some people want to see a five color Urza card since he's that good with magic, but he definitely lacks green in his trait similar to how Bolas lacks WG. Can people accept a four color Urza?
I do like the transform creature -> PW idea of Gatewatch and Bolas, it tells history, and this is the right year to do it.
I could see your argument if she was BANT she be easy to overpower with access to Blue and Green but Monowhite, I doubt. Even if she has strong abilities I find it hard to believe she would be overpowered merely by providing Angel Tokens, Life Gain and some Enchantment synergy. She is still unlikely to solve Monowhites main issues of no ramp and no card draw and even she did that she have to be cheap. And by cheap I mean costing 3 mana.
Last Time we had
Nahiri: 3WW
Teferi: 4UU
Nixilis: 3BB
Daretti: 3R
Freyalise: 3GG
So Serra would have to cost 4 and provide card draw and ramp or some way to easily cheat out cards. Now granted I suppose they could have a Serra Deck that provided plenty of new white cards to get around Mono Whites Weak points, these decks are suppose to be stronger.
Serra is popular and all, but how will you make a EDH deck with her iconic traits (angels, healing, purity, enchantment) within the mono-white region without being boring (or overpowered)?
I don't intend to argue, but do you really think Bo Levar and Commodore Guff deserve cards more than Serra and Urza? Personally, I'll be super disappointed if they skip over either Serra or Urza just to give us either of the "wacky moustache guys". Granted, I'll be even more disappointed if they give the slots to present-day planeswalkers like Saheeli or Daretti.
Actually, I do.
Serra is popular and all, but how will you make a EDH deck with her iconic traits (angels, healing, purity, enchantment) within the mono-white region without being boring (or overpowered)? I can respect a character like her, but Bo Levar, Guff, and Windgrace are just far more interesting, because they all have strength and personality flaws.
Urza is an AWESOME character, but how do you create a card under his name without being overpowered? Taysir could at the least be presented via multiple cards to imply his strength in separation and reuniting all of his "selves", Urza has always been a single figure.
I know some people want to see a five color Urza card since he's that good with magic, but he definitely lacks green in his trait similar to how Bolas lacks WG. Can people accept a four color Urza?
I do like the transform creature -> PW idea of Gatewatch and Bolas, it tells history, and this is the right year to do it.
1. Mono-White Serra needs to happen today. End of story.
2. You don't make an Urza card to encompass all of Urza, and everything about Urza from all Urza lore. You create a "snapshot" Planeswalker card, such as when Urza did this or that, and have abilities related to that time frame. Urza seemed particularly attached to artifice, for example. The only thing that should be all-encompassing about his cards is the correct mana affiliation, which appears to be 5C.
Aside from Serra, I really don't care at all about any of these old characters. I barely know their lore and frankly don't care to see them, no offense. Once Kamigawa (or Theros) is mentioned, all bets are off the damn table. That's what I am dying for the most.
Serra is popular and all, but how will you make a EDH deck with her iconic traits (angels, healing, purity, enchantment) within the mono-white region without being boring (or overpowered)? I can respect a character like her, but Bo Levar, Guff, and Windgrace are just far more interesting, because they all have strength and personality flaws.
Urza is an AWESOME character, but how do you create a card under his name without being overpowered? Taysir could at the least be presented via multiple cards to imply his strength in separation and reuniting all of his "selves", Urza has always been a single figure.
I know some people want to see a five color Urza card since he's that good with magic, but he definitely lacks green in his trait similar to how Bolas lacks WG. Can people accept a four color Urza?
I do like the transform creature -> PW idea of Gatewatch and Bolas, it tells history, and this is the right year to do it.
1. Mono-White Serra needs to happen today. End of story.
2. You don't make an Urza card to encompass all of Urza, and everything about Urza from all Urza lore. You create a "snapshot" Planeswalker card, such as when Urza did this or that, and have abilities related to that time frame. Urza seemed particularly attached to artifice, for example. The only thing that should be all-encompassing about his cards is the correct mana affiliation, which appears to be 5C.
Aside from Serra, I really don't care at all about any of these old characters. I barely know their lore and frankly don't care to see them, no offense. Once Kamigawa (or Theros) is mentioned, all bets are off the damn table. That's what I am dying for the most.
1. If it happens, it happens, either way I will buy all precons.
2. Would people settle for a snapshot Urza? His story has been dramatized everywhere, people would hope for a super powerful Urza, not just who he was during one of the era. Artifact remain Urza's greatest strength and we've been having Tezz and Daretti, it's gonna take some creativity to make another artifice PW unique and interesting. Then again, will people want an Urza card that's so narrow?
Curious how you know more about Serra lore than others, consider they all have sizable amount of stories, though it is true that Serra was more heavily advertised thanks to all her angels and floating cathedrals. I don't mind a Serra card, just wonder how she would be interesting.
Serra is popular and all, but how will you make a EDH deck with her iconic traits (angels, healing, purity, enchantment) within the mono-white region without being boring (or overpowered)?
Those were her followers, much like how original Phyrexia was pure black but later converted to five colors on Mirrodin, but Yawgmoth remains the same identity. I don't see Serra being anything but mono-white, she's not like Gideon who could totally go Boros or Orzhov since he's a martial person, but Serra is like THE whitest of spiritual white out there, even combat for her involve defense, healing, and creatures of pure white mana. She's like a marble statue in a church that kind of white, Yuria in Hokuto no Ken that kind of white, she's so white that her lore makes a garbage can of trash commons glow like foils.
So, yeah, I think she's gonna be mono white, if she ever becomes a card.
Serra is popular and all, but how will you make a EDH deck with her iconic traits (angels, healing, purity, enchantment) within the mono-white region without being boring (or overpowered)? I can respect a character like her, but Bo Levar, Guff, and Windgrace are just far more interesting, because they all have strength and personality flaws.
Commodore Guff, Bo Levar and, yes, even Urza are just a bunch of old men that cast spells. Yes, they are extremely popular with the enfranchised crowd, but that's it. A casual player will see Guff and scratch their heads on why their newest installment of Commander is showing off Monocle Gandalf as if it was a big deal. Point is, they aren't very marketable and aren't very popular outside of older players. It's pretty clear that Wizards want to bring back Urza in some way or another, as Dominaria Block shows us, but even then it's easy to see that they are doing this slowly and that it will take a bit of time.
Wizards isn't doing older Planeswalkers to tell a story, or to tie in loose ends, nor to make older fans feel good. They want to sell products. And Serra is the #1 candidate for a successful product for a multitude of reasons, the most important being Serra Angel, which is THE most iconic creature ever printed to both casual fans and enfranchised ones. And making a face card is more than just creating a card, putting it on a box and slapping a price tag on it. It's all about marketing.
Would I like a product with Guff and Bo Levar? Yes, but it doesn't matter what I think or want, money speaks louder for WotC, and Serra is most definitely getting a Commander Deck.
Commodore Guff, Bo Levar and, yes, even Urza are just a bunch of old men that cast spells. Yes, they are extremely popular with the enfranchised crowd, but that's it. A casual player will see Guff and scratch their heads on why their newest installment of Commander is showing off Monocle Gandalf as if it was a big deal. Point is, they aren't very marketable and aren't very popular outside of older players. It's pretty clear that Wizards want to bring back Urza in some way or another, as Dominaria Block shows us, but even then it's easy to see that they are doing this slowly and that it will take a bit of time.
Wizards isn't doing older Planeswalkers to tell a story, or to tie in loose ends, nor to make older fans feel good. They want to sell products. And Serra is the #1 candidate for a successful product for a multitude of reasons, the most important being Serra Angel, which is THE most iconic creature ever printed to both casual fans and enfranchised ones. And making a face card is more than just creating a card, putting it on a box and slapping a price tag on it. It's all about marketing.
Would I like a product with Guff and Bo Levar? Yes, but it doesn't matter what I think or want, money speaks louder for WotC, and Serra is most definitely getting a Commander Deck.
Yet Teferi, Jaya, Karn, and Jhoira were all returning characters from old lore, though you're right about them being more marketable compare to middle-aged/old men like Bo Levar and Guff. Ironically, those Oyaji would've had huge following in Asia. Urza is older than all of the characters I mentioned, but young people enjoy worshiping godly characters, even if he's a selfish jerk.
Windgrace might have some popularity given the rise of Black Panther and furries. If anything, Ajani is like the most positive Gatewatch member at the moment, for those who're unfamiliar with Teferi.
EDIT: Think they might make Urza or Taysir into an Exodia type of cards?
Serra is popular and all, but how will you make a EDH deck with her iconic traits (angels, healing, purity, enchantment) within the mono-white region without being boring (or overpowered)? I can respect a character like her, but Bo Levar, Guff, and Windgrace are just far more interesting, because they all have strength and personality flaws.
Commodore Guff, Bo Levar and, yes, even Urza are just a bunch of old men that cast spells. Yes, they are extremely popular with the enfranchised crowd, but that's it. A casual player will see Guff and scratch their heads on why their newest installment of Commander is showing off Monocle Gandalf as if it was a big deal. Point is, they aren't very marketable and aren't very popular outside of older players. It's pretty clear that Wizards want to bring back Urza in some way or another, as Dominaria Block shows us, but even then it's easy to see that they are doing this slowly and that it will take a bit of time.
Wizards isn't doing older Planeswalkers to tell a story, or to tie in loose ends, nor to make older fans feel good. They want to sell products. And Serra is the #1 candidate for a successful product for a multitude of reasons, the most important being Serra Angel, which is THE most iconic creature ever printed to both casual fans and enfranchised ones. And making a face card is more than just creating a card, putting it on a box and slapping a price tag on it. It's all about marketing.
Would I like a product with Guff and Bo Levar? Yes, but it doesn't matter what I think or want, money speaks louder for WotC, and Serra is most definitely getting a Commander Deck.
You know... Mairsil got a card. Wasitora. Feldon. Sidar Kondo. They weren't the "face" cards, but there's always multiple potential commanders per deck. They won't somehow sell less product if Guff or Levar show up in a secondary commander slot.
I don't think they'll repeat C14 and have only one planeswalker commander for each deck.
You know... Mairsil got a card. Wasitora. Feldon. Sidar Kondo. They weren't the "face" cards, but there's always multiple potential commanders per deck. They won't somehow sell less product if Guff or Levar show up in a secondary commander slot.
I don't think they'll repeat C14 and have only one planeswalker commander for each deck.
Also, Bruse Tarl got a card. And as far as I know, he's a flavour text only name.
Those were her followers, much like how original Phyrexia was pure black but later converted to five colors on Mirrodin, but Yawgmoth remains the same identity. I don't see Serra being anything but mono-white, she's not like Gideon who could totally go Boros or Orzhov since he's a martial person, but Serra is like THE whitest of spiritual white out there, even combat for her involve defense, healing, and creatures of pure white mana. She's like a marble statue in a church that kind of white, Yuria in Hokuto no Ken that kind of white, she's so white that her lore makes a garbage can of trash commons glow like foils.
So, yeah, I think she's gonna be mono white, if she ever becomes a card.
You know... Mairsil got a card. Wasitora. Feldon. Sidar Kondo. They weren't the "face" cards, but there's always multiple potential commanders per deck. They won't somehow sell less product if Guff or Levar show up in a secondary commander slot.
I don't think they'll repeat C14 and have only one planeswalker commander for each deck.
You are correct, there are multiple Commanders per deck, but the last time we had Commander Planeswalkers, we only got 5, not 10. Secondary Commanders were creatures, and there's a reason for it - WotC staff always said that Planeswalkers are very difficult cards to design. With all the numbers and tiny knobs that must be taken into consideration, as well as ensuring that each character is flavorfully portrayed as well as being careful for potential overlaps that would make two characters too similar... it's hard work. I honestly think that there will be only 1 Planeswalker per Deck, sadly.
Meh I don't think they have to worry about normal constraints. These are for EDH and very few walkers make it into Legacy or Vintage. Nor do I think they overly care about other cards like True Name Nemesis or Leovold slipping through the cracks.
I consider Serra more interesting than all the old characters mentioned before as well. She just is. She's associated with Angels, created her own heavenly realm as a plane which is iconic, and almost all cards depicting or referencing her have very elegant art. Her story is a tragic one that many can identify with, and whole so many characters are out for more power, or themselves, or other pursuits, she had a genuine desire to do good. Which makes her rather unique. And selfless good, I might add. She has this goddess kind of allure that I think we all can admire.
Every planeswalker ever printed is a snapshot. That's why we can get 8+ versions of the same walker, why planeswalkers can shift colors, and why they can have different abilities. If Urza ever gets printed with a body, he'll be a snapshot from one point or event in his life. In fact, that's the best way to go - pick a specific story point and make that the reason he is limited to three or four specific abilities. It doesn't limit his overall story power level, and it gives a reason for an actual playable card.
Serra is popular and all, but how will you make a EDH deck with her iconic traits (angels, healing, purity, enchantment) within the mono-white region without being boring (or overpowered)?
Those were her followers, much like how original Phyrexia was pure black but later converted to five colors on Mirrodin, but Yawgmoth remains the same identity. I don't see Serra being anything but mono-white, she's not like Gideon who could totally go Boros or Orzhov since he's a martial person, but Serra is like THE whitest of spiritual white out there, even combat for her involve defense, healing, and creatures of pure white mana. She's like a marble statue in a church that kind of white, Yuria in Hokuto no Ken that kind of white, she's so white that her lore makes a garbage can of trash commons glow like foils.
So, yeah, I think she's gonna be mono white, if she ever becomes a card.
Fair enough. I've always figured she'd be mono-white, but wondered if they might try something different. As you said, mono-white isn't the best. I just want a Serra planeswalker that makes angel tokens.
I can't. I could never build an Urza commander deck without Legacy Weapon.
Plus, he dipped into green with the Bloodlines Project. What could be more green than that?
Again, like Bolas who believe in survival of the strongest, green remain a lesser trait for him, similar to Urza's overall character who may utilize green as a tool but it's not him.
Even with WotC put Urza and Jace side by side, Urza is a lot more similar to Bolas; both of them use and twist everything and everyone around them to their benefit, and would switch allegiance to (again) benefit their own ideal.
So for those of us who already have to track three different time zones just to keep in contact with teir family members. Is this going up in ca. 4 hours from now?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Actually, I do.
Serra is popular and all, but how will you make a EDH deck with her iconic traits (angels, healing, purity, enchantment) within the mono-white region without being boring (or overpowered)? I can respect a character like her, but Bo Levar, Guff, and Windgrace are just far more interesting, because they all have strength and personality flaws.
Urza is an AWESOME character, but how do you create a card under his name without being overpowered? Taysir could at the least be presented via multiple cards to imply his strength in separation and reuniting all of his "selves", Urza has always been a single figure.
I know some people want to see a five color Urza card since he's that good with magic, but he definitely lacks green in his trait similar to how Bolas lacks WG. Can people accept a four color Urza?
I do like the transform creature -> PW idea of Gatewatch and Bolas, it tells history, and this is the right year to do it.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Last Time we had
Nahiri: 3WW
Teferi: 4UU
Nixilis: 3BB
Daretti: 3R
Freyalise: 3GG
So Serra would have to cost 4 and provide card draw and ramp or some way to easily cheat out cards. Now granted I suppose they could have a Serra Deck that provided plenty of new white cards to get around Mono Whites Weak points, these decks are suppose to be stronger.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
1. Mono-White Serra needs to happen today. End of story.
2. You don't make an Urza card to encompass all of Urza, and everything about Urza from all Urza lore. You create a "snapshot" Planeswalker card, such as when Urza did this or that, and have abilities related to that time frame. Urza seemed particularly attached to artifice, for example. The only thing that should be all-encompassing about his cards is the correct mana affiliation, which appears to be 5C.
Aside from Serra, I really don't care at all about any of these old characters. I barely know their lore and frankly don't care to see them, no offense. Once Kamigawa (or Theros) is mentioned, all bets are off the damn table. That's what I am dying for the most.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
1. If it happens, it happens, either way I will buy all precons.
2. Would people settle for a snapshot Urza? His story has been dramatized everywhere, people would hope for a super powerful Urza, not just who he was during one of the era. Artifact remain Urza's greatest strength and we've been having Tezz and Daretti, it's gonna take some creativity to make another artifice PW unique and interesting. Then again, will people want an Urza card that's so narrow?
Curious how you know more about Serra lore than others, consider they all have sizable amount of stories, though it is true that Serra was more heavily advertised thanks to all her angels and floating cathedrals. I don't mind a Serra card, just wonder how she would be interesting.
Those were her followers, much like how original Phyrexia was pure black but later converted to five colors on Mirrodin, but Yawgmoth remains the same identity. I don't see Serra being anything but mono-white, she's not like Gideon who could totally go Boros or Orzhov since he's a martial person, but Serra is like THE whitest of spiritual white out there, even combat for her involve defense, healing, and creatures of pure white mana. She's like a marble statue in a church that kind of white, Yuria in Hokuto no Ken that kind of white, she's so white that her lore makes a garbage can of trash commons glow like foils.
So, yeah, I think she's gonna be mono white, if she ever becomes a card.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Commodore Guff, Bo Levar and, yes, even Urza are just a bunch of old men that cast spells. Yes, they are extremely popular with the enfranchised crowd, but that's it. A casual player will see Guff and scratch their heads on why their newest installment of Commander is showing off Monocle Gandalf as if it was a big deal. Point is, they aren't very marketable and aren't very popular outside of older players. It's pretty clear that Wizards want to bring back Urza in some way or another, as Dominaria Block shows us, but even then it's easy to see that they are doing this slowly and that it will take a bit of time.
Wizards isn't doing older Planeswalkers to tell a story, or to tie in loose ends, nor to make older fans feel good. They want to sell products. And Serra is the #1 candidate for a successful product for a multitude of reasons, the most important being Serra Angel, which is THE most iconic creature ever printed to both casual fans and enfranchised ones. And making a face card is more than just creating a card, putting it on a box and slapping a price tag on it. It's all about marketing.
Would I like a product with Guff and Bo Levar? Yes, but it doesn't matter what I think or want, money speaks louder for WotC, and Serra is most definitely getting a Commander Deck.
Yet Teferi, Jaya, Karn, and Jhoira were all returning characters from old lore, though you're right about them being more marketable compare to middle-aged/old men like Bo Levar and Guff. Ironically, those Oyaji would've had huge following in Asia. Urza is older than all of the characters I mentioned, but young people enjoy worshiping godly characters, even if he's a selfish jerk.
Windgrace might have some popularity given the rise of Black Panther and furries. If anything, Ajani is like the most positive Gatewatch member at the moment, for those who're unfamiliar with Teferi.
EDIT: Think they might make Urza or Taysir into an Exodia type of cards?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
You know... Mairsil got a card. Wasitora. Feldon. Sidar Kondo. They weren't the "face" cards, but there's always multiple potential commanders per deck. They won't somehow sell less product if Guff or Levar show up in a secondary commander slot.
I don't think they'll repeat C14 and have only one planeswalker commander for each deck.
Try being in New Zealand! It's 8:30am 13/07 here.
Also, Bruse Tarl got a card. And as far as I know, he's a flavour text only name.
And new characters are face cards all the time.
Does anyone have a link to where this actually being shown?
Serra is so white.... She can't even.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
But I agree I can think of plenty to do with Serra card wise, we don't really have a character like her currently. I guess Ajani is the closest.
Fair enough. I've always figured she'd be mono-white, but wondered if they might try something different. As you said, mono-white isn't the best. I just want a Serra planeswalker that makes angel tokens.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
Again, like Bolas who believe in survival of the strongest, green remain a lesser trait for him, similar to Urza's overall character who may utilize green as a tool but it's not him.
Even with WotC put Urza and Jace side by side, Urza is a lot more similar to Bolas; both of them use and twist everything and everyone around them to their benefit, and would switch allegiance to (again) benefit their own ideal.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
But different colors can agree on certain aspects.
They're talking about M19. Take your bathroom breaks now folks
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||