Well, the idea of a beginner product is that it helps new players learn the game (ideally with the help of an experienced player) but logically they aren't going to put all the cards you could ever need in a precon, they want to encourage booster pack sales. That's card game design 101. And believe it or not, some players are willing to look past competitive efficiency and put sentimental value in cards, even if they don't play them much.
Know what are some of the first Magic cards I ever remember? Back in 2012, I bought the Mirromancy deck, with Galvanoth as the face card. Among the very first cards I ever remember holding were Blisterstick Shaman, Ogre Resister, Razorfield Rhino, Serum Raker, and Gnathosaur (the latter two were from the very first booster pack I ever opened). Did I ever play them competitively? Heck no. But I still have fond memories of learning the game through those cards, learning what Trample means, getting acquainted with the various card types, and just staring at those basic Islands and Mountains in wonder. I was mesmerized by Mirrodin's aesthetic, even before I realized that artifacts were the theme of the set.
Maybe some players will have a similar experience here, getting to start Magic with cards based on a mythology they know well, and even if they grow up past those cards, they may still remember them fondly. In the end, a Magic card is more than a piece of cardboard with numbers on it; it's a story, it's an experience, it's a memory.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Maybe some players will have a similar experience here, getting to start Magic with cards based on a mythology they know well, and even if they grow up past those cards, they may still remember them fondly. In the end, a Magic card is more than a piece of cardboard with numbers on it; it's a story, it's an experience, it's a memory.
It is a memory, but what memory will last longer and shine brighter? Getting trounced in your first FNM with near unplayable junk? Or winning a few matches with some bonafide format staples or competitive cards that can be used again and again?
You know what I remember most about first playing in 1994? Not having access to the power 9 and other cards like Arabian Nights and getting pounded by cards like Mox Jet and Juzam Djinn and leaving a tourney disappointed. I can't even remember the trash cards I played at the time. Some sort of Revised/Fallen Empires garbage if memory serves correct.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
You get an F for comprehension of what these decks are about. They're designed to introduce the game in a market Wizards believes has a lot of growth potential. Magic is a complicated game. This is intended for absolute newbs. Of course something designed to teach the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of the game won't appeal to enfranchised players. There's an entire article about it. "This crap is so dang bad that it will never show up in a competitive deck". IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO, in fact it was specifically designed NOT to.
You get an A for fanboysm
Plenty of cards that aren't competitive in standard but are casual playable and/or fun. prothean hydra comes to mind.
90% of these cards are just boring and terrible. Sad to see that they choose the lazy route instead of coming up with fun cards.
I don't understand this mentality to give newbie cards that are worth nothing. I'm sure that they will feel happy and satisfied when they will realize that their deck is pure thrash and will throw it in the garbage.
Not a fanboy, this product holds no appeal to me, and I won't be buying it, just like I don't buy Duel Decks, Challenger decks, or many other supplemental products that don't appeal to me. As an EDH-exclusive player since 2009, I was disappointed none of the cards will crack any of my 25 decks. WHY was I disappointed? Because at the time of the product announcement, Wizards didn't say this was an introductory product. Now that they've announced it as such, there's little reason to be disappointed, and even less reason to be critical of the power level of the cards. I understandthat this product isn't designed for established players.
I'm just smart enough to know that when a product is designed for an absolute new beginner, complexity is scaled back, and cards "worth" something is not the intent of the product. If the decks teach basic Magic mechanics and encourage them to explore products beyond the decks, it has served its purpose. Seriously, how are people not grasping such a simple conceit as "THIS IS DESIGNED FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE NEVERPLAYEDASINGLEGAMEOFMAGIC". There's fair and reasonable criticism of WOTC (i.e, why have the last few Masters sets been so underwhelming, lacking in quality reprints, and still saddled with a high MSRP), and then there is ignorant, thoughtless, near-pointless criticism ("Why isn't this product which was IMPLICITLY stated by the manufacturer as designed to be for someone that's never played the game full of expensive cards that are also complicated and thus result in two seperate worldwide meta's?").
One thing to note about power level: P3K was also kinda nerfed because, well, Portal rules. P3K cards are popular, though, because they're rare, and a way you can play a second copy of a lot of cards in Commander (e.g., Ravages of War is Armageddon number 2). Then you have some unique effects which are also played, but no one plays Zodiac Rat and other draft chaff.
I figure the ones that aren't nerfed versions of existing cards will see some play.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
First off... I kind of like the art. Most of it anyways. It's something different and unique. Not too crazy about the playability of cards but the same can be said about a lot of sets.
You get an F for comprehension of what these decks are about. They're designed to introduce the game in a market Wizards believes has a lot of growth potential. Magic is a complicated game. This is intended for absolute newbs. Of course something designed to teach the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of the game won't appeal to enfranchised players. There's an entire article about it. "This crap is so dang bad that it will never show up in a competitive deck". IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO, in fact it was specifically designed NOT to.
You get an A for fanboysm
Plenty of cards that aren't competitive in standard but are casual playable and/or fun. prothean hydra comes to mind.
90% of these cards are just boring and terrible. Sad to see that they choose the lazy route instead of coming up with fun cards.
I don't understand this mentality to give newbie cards that are worth nothing. I'm sure that they will feel happy and satisfied when they will realize that their deck is pure thrash and will throw it in the garbage.
Not a fanboy, this product holds no appeal to me, and I won't be buying it, just like I don't buy Duel Decks, Challenger decks, or many other supplemental products that don't appeal to me. As an EDH-exclusive player since 2009, I was disappointed none of the cards will crack any of my 25 decks. WHY was I disappointed? Because at the time of the product announcement, Wizards didn't say this was an introductory product. Now that they've announced it as such, there's little reason to be disappointed, and even less reason to be critical of the power level of the cards. I understandthat this product isn't designed for established players.
I'm just smart enough to know that when a product is designed for an absolute new beginner, complexity is scaled back, and cards "worth" something is not the intent of the product. If the decks teach basic Magic mechanics and encourage them to explore products beyond the decks, it has served its purpose. Seriously, how are people not grasping such a simple conceit as "THIS IS DESIGNED FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE NEVERPLAYEDASINGLEGAMEOFMAGIC". There's fair and reasonable criticism of WOTC (i.e, why have the last few Masters sets been so underwhelming, lacking in quality reprints, and still saddled with a high MSRP), and then there is ignorant, thoughtless, near-pointless criticism ("Why isn't this product which was IMPLICITLY stated by the manufacturer as designed to be for someone that's never played the game full of expensive cards that are also complicated and thus result in two seperate worldwide meta's?").
Honestly, I imagine your argument would hold merit except for the minor detail these cards are Standard legal in their region. IIRC, none of the Portal sets were ever Type II or Standard legal. That's a really odd choice. Not the fact it's not Standard legal in the U.S. but that it's Standard legal anywhere. Portal worked the way it did because most enfranchised players didn't buy into them.
Why sell such an obviously weakened set into a pool of cards whose power levels are obviously higher? Unless there's a Lightning Bolt or something to offset the power level here, it just seems like a really weird marketing choice. Is the culture in China such that these cards are actually expected to be playable alongside Dominaria cards and the like?
I'm not knocking your position. I would agree with most of your argument. It just doesn't make sense to me in light of its entry into the regional Standard poool.
First off... I kind of like the art. Most of it anyways. It's something different and unique. Not too crazy about the playability of cards but the same can be said about a lot of sets.
You get an F for comprehension of what these decks are about. They're designed to introduce the game in a market Wizards believes has a lot of growth potential. Magic is a complicated game. This is intended for absolute newbs. Of course something designed to teach the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of the game won't appeal to enfranchised players. There's an entire article about it. "This crap is so dang bad that it will never show up in a competitive deck". IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO, in fact it was specifically designed NOT to.
You get an A for fanboysm
Plenty of cards that aren't competitive in standard but are casual playable and/or fun. prothean hydra comes to mind.
90% of these cards are just boring and terrible. Sad to see that they choose the lazy route instead of coming up with fun cards.
I don't understand this mentality to give newbie cards that are worth nothing. I'm sure that they will feel happy and satisfied when they will realize that their deck is pure thrash and will throw it in the garbage.
Not a fanboy, this product holds no appeal to me, and I won't be buying it, just like I don't buy Duel Decks, Challenger decks, or many other supplemental products that don't appeal to me. As an EDH-exclusive player since 2009, I was disappointed none of the cards will crack any of my 25 decks. WHY was I disappointed? Because at the time of the product announcement, Wizards didn't say this was an introductory product. Now that they've announced it as such, there's little reason to be disappointed, and even less reason to be critical of the power level of the cards. I understandthat this product isn't designed for established players.
I'm just smart enough to know that when a product is designed for an absolute new beginner, complexity is scaled back, and cards "worth" something is not the intent of the product. If the decks teach basic Magic mechanics and encourage them to explore products beyond the decks, it has served its purpose. Seriously, how are people not grasping such a simple conceit as "THIS IS DESIGNED FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE NEVERPLAYEDASINGLEGAMEOFMAGIC". There's fair and reasonable criticism of WOTC (i.e, why have the last few Masters sets been so underwhelming, lacking in quality reprints, and still saddled with a high MSRP), and then there is ignorant, thoughtless, near-pointless criticism ("Why isn't this product which was IMPLICITLY stated by the manufacturer as designed to be for someone that's never played the game full of expensive cards that are also complicated and thus result in two seperate worldwide meta's?").
Honestly, I imagine your argument would hold merit except for the minor detail these cards are Standard legal in their region. IIRC, none of the Portal sets were ever Type II or Standard legal. That's a really odd choice. Not the fact it's not Standard legal in the U.S. but that it's Standard legal anywhere. Portal worked the way it did because most enfranchised players didn't buy into them.
Why sell such an obviously weakened set into a pool of cards whose power levels are obviously higher? Unless there's a Lightning Bolt or something to offset the power level here, it just seems like a really weird marketing choice. Is the culture in China such that these cards are actually expected to be playable alongside Dominaria cards and the like?
I'm not knocking your position. I would agree with most of your argument. It just doesn't make sense to me in light of its entry into the regional Standard poool.
They very clearly stated why the cards are the power level they are while still making them legal. Making them legal was based on the lesson learned from Portal not being legal. Even if the cards are weak, they're still legal, so new players buying them aren't hit with the fact they spent money on something they're forbidden from using. These may not be optimal in standard (far from it), but they are LEGAL at least.
"However, one very, very important element to us was not to fracture the competitive scene. Having Chinese Standard and European or North American Standard look very different would not be good for the game, because it creates discordant information and doesn't allow information and decklists from one place to transfer over to the other."
The designers had basically two choices: Make the decks stronger (and likely more complicated, which goes against the purpose of an intro product) and NOT legal, or weaker, designed for brand new players in mind, and legal so that IF a new player likes the game they can play them in a legal tournament.
People here criticizing the decks seem to fail to understand that even IF the decks were stronger, a new player wishing to play in organized events a) likely won't have other cards, certainly not to any extent established players will have, and b) a newbie with no FNM games under their belt is still likely to get crushed even if his/her pre-made deck was strong. So just saying "newbies want/deserve a strong deck" doesn't do anything for them either, even if they had one.
Why sell such an obviously weakened set into a pool of cards whose power levels are obviously higher? Unless there's a Lightning Bolt or something to offset the power level here, it just seems like a really weird marketing choice. Is the culture in China such that these cards are actually expected to be playable alongside Dominaria cards and the like?
Exactly. I don't think anyone is arguing that Wizards shouldn't market to China or any other country or region for that matter. It is the EXECUTION of that marketing or product. It's like going to a Wine Tasting event, showing up with 1/2 watered down Kool-Aid in a shiny bottle, then expecting new tasters to shell out near to the same prices for fine wines because they aren't cultured enough to know the difference until a veteran taster fills them in on their naiveté and ignorance. I may be wrong, but I don't see the Chinese player base or potential base to be a bunch of ignorant rubes that will throw their money at anything culturally aimed at them. The cards power level are weak, plain and simple. And the gall of Wizards to even say they do this on purpose? Its a slap in the face of potential consumers. Wizards can and should do better than this. Given the same amount of time, money and salary that went to Gavin Verhey and his crew, I think I could have come up with a more competitive product that wouldn't be a watered down to the point of near rubbish. The best thing they did was acquire good artists and Chinese content specialists. After that point they screwed it all up.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The thing I don't like about this set is that it's like when Burger King printed Saudi Flags on their burger wrappers back in 1994. You're going to sell something to someone that is supposed to be a nod to the culture of China as a nation, and then make the product full of absolute garbage that is going to get thrown away, buried in a bulk card box, or otherwise discarded once the player learns how out classed his starter is compared to even a drafted deck. The artwork is amazing on a lot of the cards, though.
I know this sounds kind of harsh, but if they want to introduce people to the game, at least give them good cards so they don't feel ripped off once they learn more about the game. It would be a bit different if this was like a starter for a Portal set or something, which is an entire set designed around getting new players into the game, but two decks that have almost no redeemable value and then attaching cultural significance to it?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
No one ever complained when they chose to go out and buy a pack of Portal cards. As a kid I was very grateful for Portal. WorC has moved past portal, but is still being updront about the purpose of this set. They are portal cards, nothing more, so why complain?
They are portal cards, nothing more, so why complain?
Because if you settle for less, less is what you get.
Newbs don't know differently either, we are sticking up for them by hoping Wizards sets the bar higher, not lower.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Maybe some players will have a similar experience here, getting to start Magic with cards based on a mythology they know well, and even if they grow up past those cards, they may still remember them fondly. In the end, a Magic card is more than a piece of cardboard with numbers on it; it's a story, it's an experience, it's a memory.
It is a memory, but what memory will last longer and shine brighter? Getting trounced in your first FNM with near unplayable junk? Or winning a few matches with some bonafide format staples or competitive cards that can be used again and again?
What FNM? The one they may never play at?
Casual is not just a springboard to low-level competitive. It's also mostly a springboard to more casual.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Imagine you are a brand new player and one of the surefire ways you can acquire a few new cards is to scoop up someone else's draft chaff or just open a booster or two.
Now imagine that this product was where you started. With the power level of these products, it makes cracking a random booster exciting. Even the commons would be useful. The rares would be outlandish, even. Buying any off-the-shelf booster would be a fun way to upgrade and experiment, rather than an inefficient waste of your money.
They judged this perfectly for beginners and casuals. It means those piles of spare chaff that get shared around to new players would be exciting and bristling with potential upgrades, instead of useless garbage. It's pitched just right.
If this product was all optimised, laden with powerful rares, necessarily you'd see everything else get less exciting or interesting because your starting point is already much better.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I'd be screeching as well if I were screeching phoenix. That is such an awful phoenix card. A bad body for its cost and a activated ability that looks like it was nicked from purphoros. Because I saw the phoenix artwork and got excited, but the card itself is just bad. It doesn't do the one of the single thing that is expected of a phoenix: revive itself from the graveyard.
Also I will echo the statement. I hate the mostly draft fodder in this. New players are going to think its bad when they see what gets played at FNMs. Old players aren't going to buy it except for the two planeswalkers, the dragon, the basic lands, and a few fodder pieces because they like the look. If they wanted it to resemble draft decks, why not emulate the prebuilt ones that can be bought online? As those are affordable yet they are well constructed decks made up of mostly commons and uncommons that usually have a full playset of each card.
Also why did they skimp out and make the tiger and turtle into vanillas? As the turtle, tiger, dragon, and phoenix are meant to represent the four cardinal directions. Its like if Theros spoilers were happening and the last god that was revealed was Heliod, God of the Sun but for some random reason was a common and vanilla. Why?
I'm just amazed at how many people are willing to settle. And I'm also amazed at how many people think its okay for Wizards to intentionally water down a product and take advantage of a segments naiveté for monetary gain. And admit that is exactly why they are doing it. They say a fool and their money are soon parted. It sure will hold true in this instance. I will do my tiny part by not buying it and try to steer any newcomers away from it as well. Wizards can and should do better on a product like this. It is well intentioned but poorly executed imho. I need to leave it at that.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
A lot of people here who are defending this product are committing a big logical fallacy by trying to make this into a false dichotomy. The only options aren't that this product either sucks and no one will want to buy it for anything other than the art (it's current state) or that it's packed full of staples and will be flying off the shelves so fast new players will never get it. That's an incredibly simple minded way of thinking that is honestly hilarious.
There's a gradient to how powerful decks are, not a set of boxes, and it's unfortunate that these decks are about the power level of a couple of welcome decks put together with a planeswalker thrown in. And those welcome decks were free. I don't think anyone here is saying that Breath of Fire should have been Lightning Bolt but what I am saying is that there is no good reason for Breath of Fire to not have been Shock or Lightning Strike. There really don't need to be high powered cards at all but it's painfully obvious here that they chose cards that are below cards that arw even generally considered "not great".
If these decks were full of cards that were simply okay there wouldn't be any problem here. But these were purposefully made to be worse than okay. These decks are bad for the kitchen table level of play and that's the problem here. There is no play value.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
Terrible set. I was expecting either a colectible or a full set. Who is this aiming for? At 20$ i would rather buy packs. There is a store nearby that is going to be stuck with 10+ of this 20$ Carboardboxes full of nothing and they are not on good financial footing. Wizzards has betrayed themselfs again traying to please too many people. Its time they start to take risks and stop missing opportunities like this.
"After years of research and analysis, we've found that a key to getting people into Magic is . . . getting them to try Magic!"
"we do an incredible amount of work on introductory products."
"It's easy to glance past these if you've been playing Magic for ages, but they are a tremendous piece of what makes Magic work."
"So, what if we made a product to bring Chinese players into Magic? To give them that initial taste..."
"...we just need to get players started"
"An introductory product would be perfect."
"Now, to properly set expectations: these are essentially special Planeswalker Decks for a Chinese audience."
"After much discussion, we settled on something unusual: these cards would be legal for Standard play in mainland China events. They will also be legal in Vintage and Legacy everywhere. They will never be Modern legal, because once they rotate out of Standard, the reason they were Standard legal no longer applies. However, one very, very important element to us was not to fracture the competitive scene. Having Chinese Standard and European or North American Standard look very different would not be good for the game, because it creates discordant information and doesn't allow information and decklists from one place to transfer over to the other."
"So, Play Design was very careful to make sure that the cards were balanced so that none of them were cards for Constructed."
"After all, the most important aspect of these decks is that they teach you how to play."
Seriously people, Wizards COULD NOT HAVE MADE IT MORE CLEAR: 1. WHO these cards are for; and 2. Why the power level/complexity exists as it does.
Sorry but friends are the reason people start playing, then they get hooked on art then they stay for the challenge. The first product that got me hooked was the deckmastes product, that featured a magic the gathering champion vs the creator of the game.
This product at 20$ gives so much less than that one. And in my opinion is made like the holyday gift boxes to be bought as a gift by your non magic friends. All the complexity saved on the cards is added on the fact that these are not std legal everywhere so i guess it's meant to teach newbies to play something other than std.
A lot of people here who are defending this product are committing a big logical fallacy by trying to make this into a false dichotomy. The only options aren't that this product either sucks and no one will want to buy it for anything other than the art (it's current state) or that it's packed full of staples and will be flying off the shelves so fast new players will never get it. That's an incredibly simple minded way of thinking that is honestly hilarious.
There's a gradient to how powerful decks are, not a set of boxes, and it's unfortunate that these decks are about the power level of a couple of welcome decks put together with a planeswalker thrown in. And those welcome decks were free. I don't think anyone here is saying that Breath of Fire should have been Lightning Bolt but what I am saying is that there is no good reason for Breath of Fire to not have been Shock or Lightning Strike. There really don't need to be high powered cards at all but it's painfully obvious here that they chose cards that are below cards that arw even generally considered "not great".
If these decks were full of cards that were simply okay there wouldn't be any problem here. But these were purposefully made to be worse than okay. These decks are bad for the kitchen table level of play and that's the problem here. There is no play value.
And once again, a critic's sole criteria is power level. If that was all that mattered, these might as well be a bunch of nameless cards with no picture, because that's about all the soul power level arguments have. It's griping about the mechanical efficiency of a playing piece without taking into account the larger scope of its creative and emotional roles. These cards aren't designed to be competitive in the first place, so their low power level isn't a problem.
And frankly, kitchen table play is subjective. What, next you're going to tell players who actually like playing these cards at all let alone at the kitchen table that they're "doing it wrong"? Because quite frankly, it's their money and thus their right to decide what is and isn't good for their kitchen table.
A 3-cmc Shock would be ridiculous, but a 2-cmc Shock isn't the end of the world. My only gripe about Breath of Fire is that they spent such a cool name on it, and by extension made mechanically better burn spells sound less cool.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
These cards aren't designed to be competitive in the first place, so their low power level isn't a problem.
Then why charge $19.99 MSRP for what is essentially 2 free Welcome decks with 2 foil Nerfwalkers?
Read what SilverSpellthief said again.
A lot of people here who are defending this product are committing a big logical fallacy by trying to make this into a false dichotomy. The only options aren't that this product either sucks and no one will want to buy it for anything other than the art (it's current state) or that it's packed full of staples and will be flying off the shelves so fast new players will never get it. That's an incredibly simple minded way of thinking that is honestly hilarious.
There's a gradient to how powerful decks are, not a set of boxes, and it's unfortunate that these decks are about the power level of a couple of welcome decks put together with a planeswalker thrown in. And those welcome decks were free. I don't think anyone here is saying that Breath of Fire should have been Lightning Bolt but what I am saying is that there is no good reason for Breath of Fire to not have been Shock or Lightning Strike. There really don't need to be high powered cards at all but it's painfully obvious here that they chose cards that are below cards that arw even generally considered "not great".
If these decks were full of cards that were simply okay there wouldn't be any problem here. But these were purposefully made to be worse than okay. These decks are bad for the kitchen table level of play and that's the problem here. There is no play value.
This isn't dichotomous as he/she says. There is a gradient of power/worth they could have put these at and they sided for the absolute bottom end. And again they have the absolute gaul to charge money for something that has arguably worse power than what they stick in a free Welcome Deck. Sure the artwork is very nice. Sure some people like the alternate lands. Sure some people will buy it for the walkers. But in the end its a nerfed, low power Welcome deck gussied up for the Ball. Lipstick on a pig.
And BTW, Breath of Fire isn't even a 2 cmc Shock. It doesn't even target players or Walkers. It is a piece of junk that they could have printed at 1 cmc.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Plus there is that sickening feeling when you realize that it won't be just this for the global series, the next one is guaranteed to be this same quality. As that is just how they operate with their products, months in advance.
I don't understand the design philosophy they employed as only place in the world can play with these cards anyway so they should be stronger than those released on a global scale in their planeswalker decks. As what sort of offering is this to a neighbor? "We want to promote our card game in your country, so as a token of goodwill take this special box filled with draft fodder."
So when there is a global series that is exclusive to the USA (Western Myths) or in Norway (Norse Myths), the cards may look nice but they could just be more draft fodder.
I'd be screeching as well if I were screeching phoenix. That is such an awful phoenix card. A bad body for its cost and a activated ability that looks like it was nicked from purphoros. Because I saw the phoenix artwork and got excited, but the card itself is just bad. It doesn't do the one of the single thing that is expected of a phoenix: revive itself from the graveyard.
Chinese phoenixes don't have the immortality/revival aspect in their legends, instead, they seem to be focused on sections of their bodies representing parts of the heavens, various virtues, and being paired with a dragon for various symbol things.
I'm disappointed with this release. I had a feeling that these cards were going to be simple, but I was hoping for a few cards to add to my peasant cube. After looking at the list, only Welkin Tern appeals to me. That's unfortunate because much of the art is amazing.
So when there is a global series that is exclusive to the USA (Western Myths) or in Norway (Norse Myths), the cards may look nice but they could just be more draft fodder.
Now I'm picturing a Giant planeswalker based on Paul Bunyan. Hm, would he have an associated legendary Ox creature card or token?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Know what are some of the first Magic cards I ever remember? Back in 2012, I bought the Mirromancy deck, with Galvanoth as the face card. Among the very first cards I ever remember holding were Blisterstick Shaman, Ogre Resister, Razorfield Rhino, Serum Raker, and Gnathosaur (the latter two were from the very first booster pack I ever opened). Did I ever play them competitively? Heck no. But I still have fond memories of learning the game through those cards, learning what Trample means, getting acquainted with the various card types, and just staring at those basic Islands and Mountains in wonder. I was mesmerized by Mirrodin's aesthetic, even before I realized that artifacts were the theme of the set.
Maybe some players will have a similar experience here, getting to start Magic with cards based on a mythology they know well, and even if they grow up past those cards, they may still remember them fondly. In the end, a Magic card is more than a piece of cardboard with numbers on it; it's a story, it's an experience, it's a memory.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
It is a memory, but what memory will last longer and shine brighter? Getting trounced in your first FNM with near unplayable junk? Or winning a few matches with some bonafide format staples or competitive cards that can be used again and again?
You know what I remember most about first playing in 1994? Not having access to the power 9 and other cards like Arabian Nights and getting pounded by cards like Mox Jet and Juzam Djinn and leaving a tourney disappointed. I can't even remember the trash cards I played at the time. Some sort of Revised/Fallen Empires garbage if memory serves correct.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Not a fanboy, this product holds no appeal to me, and I won't be buying it, just like I don't buy Duel Decks, Challenger decks, or many other supplemental products that don't appeal to me. As an EDH-exclusive player since 2009, I was disappointed none of the cards will crack any of my 25 decks. WHY was I disappointed? Because at the time of the product announcement, Wizards didn't say this was an introductory product. Now that they've announced it as such, there's little reason to be disappointed, and even less reason to be critical of the power level of the cards. I understand that this product isn't designed for established players.
I'm just smart enough to know that when a product is designed for an absolute new beginner, complexity is scaled back, and cards "worth" something is not the intent of the product. If the decks teach basic Magic mechanics and encourage them to explore products beyond the decks, it has served its purpose. Seriously, how are people not grasping such a simple conceit as "THIS IS DESIGNED FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE NEVER PLAYED A SINGLE GAME OF MAGIC". There's fair and reasonable criticism of WOTC (i.e, why have the last few Masters sets been so underwhelming, lacking in quality reprints, and still saddled with a high MSRP), and then there is ignorant, thoughtless, near-pointless criticism ("Why isn't this product which was IMPLICITLY stated by the manufacturer as designed to be for someone that's never played the game full of expensive cards that are also complicated and thus result in two seperate worldwide meta's?").
I figure the ones that aren't nerfed versions of existing cards will see some play.
On phasing:
Honestly, I imagine your argument would hold merit except for the minor detail these cards are Standard legal in their region. IIRC, none of the Portal sets were ever Type II or Standard legal. That's a really odd choice. Not the fact it's not Standard legal in the U.S. but that it's Standard legal anywhere. Portal worked the way it did because most enfranchised players didn't buy into them.
Why sell such an obviously weakened set into a pool of cards whose power levels are obviously higher? Unless there's a Lightning Bolt or something to offset the power level here, it just seems like a really weird marketing choice. Is the culture in China such that these cards are actually expected to be playable alongside Dominaria cards and the like?
I'm not knocking your position. I would agree with most of your argument. It just doesn't make sense to me in light of its entry into the regional Standard poool.
They very clearly stated why the cards are the power level they are while still making them legal. Making them legal was based on the lesson learned from Portal not being legal. Even if the cards are weak, they're still legal, so new players buying them aren't hit with the fact they spent money on something they're forbidden from using. These may not be optimal in standard (far from it), but they are LEGAL at least.
"However, one very, very important element to us was not to fracture the competitive scene. Having Chinese Standard and European or North American Standard look very different would not be good for the game, because it creates discordant information and doesn't allow information and decklists from one place to transfer over to the other."
The designers had basically two choices: Make the decks stronger (and likely more complicated, which goes against the purpose of an intro product) and NOT legal, or weaker, designed for brand new players in mind, and legal so that IF a new player likes the game they can play them in a legal tournament.
People here criticizing the decks seem to fail to understand that even IF the decks were stronger, a new player wishing to play in organized events a) likely won't have other cards, certainly not to any extent established players will have, and b) a newbie with no FNM games under their belt is still likely to get crushed even if his/her pre-made deck was strong. So just saying "newbies want/deserve a strong deck" doesn't do anything for them either, even if they had one.
Exactly. I don't think anyone is arguing that Wizards shouldn't market to China or any other country or region for that matter. It is the EXECUTION of that marketing or product. It's like going to a Wine Tasting event, showing up with 1/2 watered down Kool-Aid in a shiny bottle, then expecting new tasters to shell out near to the same prices for fine wines because they aren't cultured enough to know the difference until a veteran taster fills them in on their naiveté and ignorance. I may be wrong, but I don't see the Chinese player base or potential base to be a bunch of ignorant rubes that will throw their money at anything culturally aimed at them. The cards power level are weak, plain and simple. And the gall of Wizards to even say they do this on purpose? Its a slap in the face of potential consumers. Wizards can and should do better than this. Given the same amount of time, money and salary that went to Gavin Verhey and his crew, I think I could have come up with a more competitive product that wouldn't be a watered down to the point of near rubbish. The best thing they did was acquire good artists and Chinese content specialists. After that point they screwed it all up.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I know this sounds kind of harsh, but if they want to introduce people to the game, at least give them good cards so they don't feel ripped off once they learn more about the game. It would be a bit different if this was like a starter for a Portal set or something, which is an entire set designed around getting new players into the game, but two decks that have almost no redeemable value and then attaching cultural significance to it?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Because if you settle for less, less is what you get.
Newbs don't know differently either, we are sticking up for them by hoping Wizards sets the bar higher, not lower.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
What FNM? The one they may never play at?
Casual is not just a springboard to low-level competitive. It's also mostly a springboard to more casual.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Imagine you are a brand new player and one of the surefire ways you can acquire a few new cards is to scoop up someone else's draft chaff or just open a booster or two.
Now imagine that this product was where you started. With the power level of these products, it makes cracking a random booster exciting. Even the commons would be useful. The rares would be outlandish, even. Buying any off-the-shelf booster would be a fun way to upgrade and experiment, rather than an inefficient waste of your money.
They judged this perfectly for beginners and casuals. It means those piles of spare chaff that get shared around to new players would be exciting and bristling with potential upgrades, instead of useless garbage. It's pitched just right.
If this product was all optimised, laden with powerful rares, necessarily you'd see everything else get less exciting or interesting because your starting point is already much better.
Also I will echo the statement. I hate the mostly draft fodder in this. New players are going to think its bad when they see what gets played at FNMs. Old players aren't going to buy it except for the two planeswalkers, the dragon, the basic lands, and a few fodder pieces because they like the look. If they wanted it to resemble draft decks, why not emulate the prebuilt ones that can be bought online? As those are affordable yet they are well constructed decks made up of mostly commons and uncommons that usually have a full playset of each card.
Also why did they skimp out and make the tiger and turtle into vanillas? As the turtle, tiger, dragon, and phoenix are meant to represent the four cardinal directions. Its like if Theros spoilers were happening and the last god that was revealed was Heliod, God of the Sun but for some random reason was a common and vanilla. Why?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
There's a gradient to how powerful decks are, not a set of boxes, and it's unfortunate that these decks are about the power level of a couple of welcome decks put together with a planeswalker thrown in. And those welcome decks were free. I don't think anyone here is saying that Breath of Fire should have been Lightning Bolt but what I am saying is that there is no good reason for Breath of Fire to not have been Shock or Lightning Strike. There really don't need to be high powered cards at all but it's painfully obvious here that they chose cards that are below cards that arw even generally considered "not great".
If these decks were full of cards that were simply okay there wouldn't be any problem here. But these were purposefully made to be worse than okay. These decks are bad for the kitchen table level of play and that's the problem here. There is no play value.
-Chandra Nalaar
Sorry but friends are the reason people start playing, then they get hooked on art then they stay for the challenge. The first product that got me hooked was the deckmastes product, that featured a magic the gathering champion vs the creator of the game.
This product at 20$ gives so much less than that one. And in my opinion is made like the holyday gift boxes to be bought as a gift by your non magic friends. All the complexity saved on the cards is added on the fact that these are not std legal everywhere so i guess it's meant to teach newbies to play something other than std.
And once again, a critic's sole criteria is power level. If that was all that mattered, these might as well be a bunch of nameless cards with no picture, because that's about all the soul power level arguments have. It's griping about the mechanical efficiency of a playing piece without taking into account the larger scope of its creative and emotional roles. These cards aren't designed to be competitive in the first place, so their low power level isn't a problem.
And frankly, kitchen table play is subjective. What, next you're going to tell players who actually like playing these cards at all let alone at the kitchen table that they're "doing it wrong"? Because quite frankly, it's their money and thus their right to decide what is and isn't good for their kitchen table.
A 3-cmc Shock would be ridiculous, but a 2-cmc Shock isn't the end of the world. My only gripe about Breath of Fire is that they spent such a cool name on it, and by extension made mechanically better burn spells sound less cool.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Then why charge $19.99 MSRP for what is essentially 2 free Welcome decks with 2 foil Nerfwalkers?
Read what SilverSpellthief said again.
This isn't dichotomous as he/she says. There is a gradient of power/worth they could have put these at and they sided for the absolute bottom end. And again they have the absolute gaul to charge money for something that has arguably worse power than what they stick in a free Welcome Deck. Sure the artwork is very nice. Sure some people like the alternate lands. Sure some people will buy it for the walkers. But in the end its a nerfed, low power Welcome deck gussied up for the Ball. Lipstick on a pig.
And BTW, Breath of Fire isn't even a 2 cmc Shock. It doesn't even target players or Walkers. It is a piece of junk that they could have printed at 1 cmc.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I don't understand the design philosophy they employed as only place in the world can play with these cards anyway so they should be stronger than those released on a global scale in their planeswalker decks. As what sort of offering is this to a neighbor? "We want to promote our card game in your country, so as a token of goodwill take this special box filled with draft fodder."
So when there is a global series that is exclusive to the USA (Western Myths) or in Norway (Norse Myths), the cards may look nice but they could just be more draft fodder.
Chinese phoenixes don't have the immortality/revival aspect in their legends, instead, they seem to be focused on sections of their bodies representing parts of the heavens, various virtues, and being paired with a dragon for various symbol things.
Commander: *Five Color Fun-Stuff *Grixis Artifacts *Beast Tribal
Brawl: To Be Decided At Eldraine Release!
Now I'm picturing a Giant planeswalker based on Paul Bunyan. Hm, would he have an associated legendary Ox creature card or token?
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.