And its the sheer quantity. Comics did this against consumer demand, and sales tanked. Is that also true of Magic? I do not know. Maybe it does test well and Im in the minority.
One wonders if it failed for comics (if it did, I can't claim to have any insight on the comics industry) for more nuanced reasons? Diversity and inclusion has certainly not failed (financially) for other forms of media.
I would guess, not know, but guess, that there is a tension between Diversity (+, Teferi) Inclusion (Alesha/Ashiok) and Nostalgia (White Dude in Shining Armour).
If you trample too much on nostalgia (genderbender on old Comic hero's for example) do you gain more than you lose?
Full Disclosure: I'm all about diversity, inclusion, feminism, and the "evil leftist agenda" but it comes at a cost, if you stomp on our nostalgia too much.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
It actually sounds arrogant af to me,
but I suppose it's fitting?
I think that's the point. It reeks of a dangerous superiority complex, which is chilling.
The card itself is nice from a gameplay standpoint, but I don't know why I'm surprised to see someone get twisted over the skin colour of the people depicted in these, even though a lot can happen in centuries.
And its the sheer quantity. Comics did this against consumer demand, and sales tanked. Is that also true of Magic? I do not know. Maybe it does test well and Im in the minority.
I have never seen anything to indicate that the majority of players notice the race (or gender for that matter) of characters in MtG's artwork. In fact, most Spike players don't care about flavor components at all so long as the cards are good. The only people I think notice are Vorthoses like myself, who like world building elements for their own sake, and people specifically looking for these details for one reason or another (whether because they want to complain, or because they feel left out, and I personally feel more sympathetic to the latter crowd).
Personally, as a Vorthos, I found Jamurra and the Mirage block in general to be really interesting, and was very disappointed when they got rid of Zalfir in Time Spiral specifically because I thought it did the game a bit of a disservice diversity wise. It was a unique place not only in Magic's multiverse of settings, but very rare in the Fantasy genre at large. I think they are making the right choice continuity wise to keep it phased out of time, but are making up for that mistake by showing that black people didn't completely disappear from Dominaria because of it. Most of Jamurra is still on the map they showed, and the other places of Dominaria are more diverse than before. If it makes people feel good to see themselves in the art, good. I can't understand the kind of person who complains about these things. The fantasy genre is better for evolving away from the "White people only" mindset (the more people I can share my hobbies with the better IMO), and Magic is better for being at the forefront of that aesthetic evolution.
We're willing to accept that most characters in MTG were white in a time when white actors dominated media for nearly all important character roles that weren't stereotyped but now as media has evolved a couple of steps towards actually having important non-white roles we think it's some giant scheme to destroy white people in a fantasy game. It's almost like MTG's diversity has mirrored popular culture all along.
Some representation is fine. Forced, propaganda style overrepresentation is not fine. Black people are not a third of MTG players.
I'm still not getting your issue with black people being depicted more often on these cards.
He isn't going to just say it. He is going to keep acting like Magic representation is based on the population of players in the game and not based on actually representing people because it's a good thing to do.
"Forced propaganda". Oh no WOTC is forcing me to look at people who aren't white oh god. My mind is being overtaken by sjw propaganda.
The same people who have probably used the term special snowflake more than a few times in their lives are getting their panties in a twist when they see a black guy on a card.
Some representation is fine. Forced, propaganda style overrepresentation is not fine. Black people are not a third of MTG players.
Neither are Greeks, Japanese, and Egyptians, but we still got Theros, Kamigawa, and Amonkhet. Nothing about it is forced or "propaganda", since they had black people on Dominaria all the way back in the 90's. A whole continent full of them. If anything, not including them would feel more inauthentic to anyone familiar with that era of the game. This is a world building issue, not a political one. It is only political because people perceive it to be.
Some representation is fine. Forced, propaganda style overrepresentation is not fine. Black people are not a third of MTG players.
Alright sir, I was going to say nothing more on the matter, but now you've prompted me to show what statistics can show us.
From the batch of human cards that we have from Dominaria with artwork, there are 27 human creatures+planeswalkers in total. 18 are white, 7 are black, and 2 you can't say what they are (knight of malice and cabal paladin).
The data that I could quickly find on black people around the world tells me that they make 15% of the population, worldwide and in the US.
I wrote a script on MATLAB that calculates the chances of you picking a particular distribution of blacks/whites (here I'm calling everything non-black as white) with a 15% chance of picking a black person everytime. The chances of you getting a 18/7 representation, after iterating a hundred thousand times, is around 4.4%. If you count both knights as white people (since you think the white people are depicted as bad), the chances go up to about 5.9%. In the latter case, if this was a scientific hypothesis ('black people are being more represented than what is expected by chance'), it would be rejected. In the former, it would be accepted.
That is, however, with the cards that we have spoiled so far. Is that going to change at the end of spoiler season? It is possible. So far, if you count the knights as white people, you have no legs to stand on, otherwise, you might have a chance, heh.
function Magic = testproportion(white,black)
chance = 0.15;
count = 0;
for i=1:100000
numberblack = 0;
for j=1:(white+black)
pick = rand;
if pick <= chance
numberblack = numberblack + 1;
end
end
if numberblack == black
count = count + 1;
end
end
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
All of this talk makes me want a card alter of Benalish Marshal with Idris Elba's character from Pacific Rim, the Marshall, Stacker Pentacost
I hope this post isn't locked because I do think that this is an interesting card for standard possibly. I hope it remains cheap so I can get a playset asap. Casuals like myself will love it!
All of this talk makes me want a card alter of Benalish Marshal with Idris Elba's character from Pacific Rim, the Marshall, Stacker Pentacost
I hope this post isn't locked because I do think that this is an interesting card for standard possibly. I hope it remains cheap so I can get a playset asap. Casuals like myself will love it!
Already selling out in some places. It started at $1 and now it's $2 sold out in the few stores I checked.
I, personally, tend not to really notice a character's skin color, until it's pointed out to me, inevitably by someone complaining that my ethnicity is somehow tainting their fictional world by being overrepresented.
And its the sheer quantity. Comics did this against consumer demand, and sales tanked. Is that also true of Magic? I do not know. Maybe it does test well and Im in the minority.
One wonders if it failed for comics (if it did, I can't claim to have any insight on the comics industry) for more nuanced reasons? Diversity and inclusion has certainly not failed (financially) for other forms of media.
I would guess, not know, but guess, that there is a tension between Diversity (+, Teferi) Inclusion (Alesha/Ashiok) and Nostalgia (White Dude in Shining Armour).
If you trample too much on nostalgia (genderbender on old Comic hero's for example) do you gain more than you lose?
Full Disclosure: I'm all about diversity, inclusion, feminism, and the "evil leftist agenda" but it comes at a cost, if you stomp on our nostalgia too much.
If your nostalgia is tied up in the dominance of straight white male characters and their stories with little diversity or representation outside of that, you'll probably going to have to get used to that nostalgia getting trampled on. It's not like MtG (or really any media) is generally going to get less diverse over time.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing, but it really shouldn't be used as an excuse to exclude. Shrug.
I, personally, tend not to really notice a character's skin color, until it's pointed out to me, inevitably by someone complaining that my ethnicity is somehow tainting their fictional world by being overrepresented.
So, y'know, that's a great feeling.
And to complete that rhetorical circle, “White people get blamed for everything”.
Anywho, I personally don’t care. But, there is a point to be made about just doing things for the sake of diversity. While I don’t fall into the “skin color” minority, I may fall into another, common nerd stereotype that wizards may feel obligated at some point to include in their fictional world of magic that I just so happen to play to escape real world problems such as those. And let me tell you, there had better be a honest reason for doing so besides “cuz diversity bro”. Is all that says is “Hey, we know you’re not like everybody else in this particular way, so here, draw inspiration from this piece of cardboard/video game/television show”. Oh, you don’t say?
Now, after all that said, im not a lore-buff. From what I’ve gathered, those opposed to the “change” seem to have their concerns rooted specifically in that aspect of it, and not the “Hey, I’m Racist” kind of concern. It’s a valid criticism if it doesn’t match up with the lore. However, those on that side of the criticism need to accept an honest “story follow-up” if made available explaining the change.
I really like the card. I hope they do a cycle like this every couple of sets. By that I mean mono-colored non-generic cost creatures, across a multitude of CMC. I’d love to see some 4cmc dudes. Helps out a fun mechanic is devotion/chroma. Speaking of, imagine our knight buddy dropped down and followed up by Light from Within.
And its the sheer quantity. Comics did this against consumer demand, and sales tanked. Is that also true of Magic? I do not know. Maybe it does test well and Im in the minority.
One wonders if it failed for comics (if it did, I can't claim to have any insight on the comics industry) for more nuanced reasons? Diversity and inclusion has certainly not failed (financially) for other forms of media.
I would guess, not know, but guess, that there is a tension between Diversity (+, Teferi) Inclusion (Alesha/Ashiok) and Nostalgia (White Dude in Shining Armour).
If you trample too much on nostalgia (genderbender on old Comic hero's for example) do you gain more than you lose?
Full Disclosure: I'm all about diversity, inclusion, feminism, and the "evil leftist agenda" but it comes at a cost, if you stomp on our nostalgia too much.
If your nostalgia is tied up in the dominance of straight white male characters and their stories with little diversity or representation outside of that, you'll probably going to have to get used to that nostalgia getting trampled on. It's not like MtG (or really any media) is generally going to get less diverse over time.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing, but it really shouldn't be used as an excuse to exclude. Shrug.
Yep. I'm at least borderline self aware. I'm an older (in gamer terms) White, North American dude. I was thining on this while at my gym.
Another example, is Overwatch. If you are at all familiar with it, its very big on diversity. I look at this Benalish guy like this.
Symettra is from India. Strong female, Indian character. Great.
Ana, is from Egypt. Strong OLDER female, and she is Egyptian. Great.
Now. Picture in your mind, a Ninja. A Cyberninja. If you asked 100 people, 'Yo, where is a technological, cybernetic, Ninja, going to come from?' If you dont tell me 'Japan', then I'm giving you the 'wut' look.
If Genji, was a WHITE DUDE, I would be super pissed. He needs to be a japanese dude, and thats that.
So how do I bring this back to Benalish Marshal? Well, nostalgia.
Knights, are a Euro-centric trope. Some would say its one of the strongest tropes we have in a Fantasy setting. Right up there with Dragons, and Demons, and Angels.
Is it too much to ask for our Knights to have a Euro-centric look? Apparently so.
Wizards did this, on a pushed card, and they do it for a reason, and its selfish of us white folks to want it our way (it is, I accept that) because it doesnt serve our expectations.
I know its a failing on my part, just like how I want some more White Dudes in Overwatch because I'm selfish. I'm cool with my understanding of that.
Some representation is fine. Forced, propaganda style overrepresentation is not fine. Black people are not a third of MTG players.
I agree. Lately, it's been nothing but that. Don't even get me started on the female thing either. It's just suffocating. It's the worst when we have black people on planes like Theros and Innistrad, instead of Greek and German. Do I expect white or black or non-Japanese people on Kamigawa? No. Keep it accurate and true to source material and feeling natural and stop pushing an agenda. It's annoying. And frankly, I do care about the race depicted because frankly, I find white men to be the most attractive. I don't really care who this offends, we all have our type. And I tend to gravitate toward artwork I find attractive, so I do pay attention to the gender and race/appearance. I'm a Vorthos, of course I would. It's inaccurate to claim no one perceives these details. Representation isn't tainting anything. Disingenuous agenda pushing is just nauseating when it's overload like it has been.
The discussion in this thread is giving me hepatitis, but this card might actually be legacy playable? If marsh casualties becomes more popular I could absolutely see this as a Death and Taxes card in the right meta. It competes with Mirran Crusader, as I think 4x Flickerwisp is pretty much untouchable at the 3 drop spot.
Ashiok: I am sorry, but you are adding a highly unnecessary calculation to a simple equation. Black people, in the US, make up about 12-13% of the population. Using your statistics, 7 are black, and 18 are white (lets ignore the knights entirely, since their race was not made to be a prominent issue). 28% are black. There is no need for complex statistics.
If one actually looks at who plays Magic, the numbers overwhelmingly suggest white and Asian men. My mouse is charging, so I do not have the energy to unearth the statistics (to the extent they exist) but anecdotally, I suspect that in the US, white males make up 85% of the player base, and white and Asian men together make up, globally, probably...the same? Depends how you classify South America, where the game is popular, I believe. Certainly, the 28% present representation of blacks in the present set as revealed is...strange.
I also have zero problem with Teferi or any character explicitly out of Jamurra. I like Teferi, I never felt it was forced at all, and I am happy to see him again. But the idea that black men (and women) are now highly represented in the knightly caste of Benalia is forced. The idea that angels, modeled from Serra's vision millennia ago, are now suddenly also black (both Lyra and Serra Angel, by the way) is more than forced.
I looked at the new map of Dominaria to see how believable a mass Jamurran migration to far-west Aerona was. It is not. The distance seems to be as far, relative to earth, as from San Francisco to Mongolia. Dominaria is 2.5 times the size of Earth. Seems...unlikely. And we never had a mention of a Jamuuran exodus.
Formless_One: I have zero problem with no white people on Tarkir. Its a pan-Asian world modeled after the 11th century or so. In fact, I would be perplexed if there were random white people there. The only thing about Tarkir that was absurd is the idea of the brutal Mardu horde following "Alesha", a thin boy who wanted to be thought of as a girl. Yep, the same clan Zurgo, a giant orc, seized by force and sorcery, he seized while not knowing which bathroom tent to us.
Others: Fantasy is escapism. It is about imagining yourself as the characters. You want people to relate to the characters. When the majority of your player base is white or Asian, and so many of the heroic characters (the Gix-worshipper aside, the villains are white as hell, and the Cabal seemingly entirely so) are of an ethnicity that the players are not, escapism becomes hard.
Furthermore, it IS fantasy, but its meant to be a layover of the real world, not an abolition of all its logical rules. You CAN imagine Serra Angels black, but it does not make sense in-story, and it requires additional hoops. The same is true for the amount of fighters, soldiers and knights who are women. Human beings have some of the most drastic sexual dimorphism in nature. Our females are substantially physically weaker, especially in the upper body. Angels are one thing (they are magical by nature), as are archers and sorceresses. But the constant barrage of female strength-hero types is absurd. Though I do find the new Radha oddly more attractive in her new, jacked form.
The question is: why? To make EVERYONE feel welcome? But does Teferi not accomplish that? Why force over-integration, as openly stated is a goal by Rosewater. I play the game (or used to, as far as buying cards is concerned) for myself, not to feel "inclusive." I want to feel a connection. In a world where I am constantly reminded how different and sensitive people not like myself are, and how I must be sure to make them feel, it is very hard to also, simultaneously, expect me to relate and be color-blind when those characters are meant to be my proxies in the fantasy game. You cannot have it both ways.
I DO believe comics are failing in large part because of the cultural disconnect between fans and makers. There is a reason Jeremy Hambly has such a massive following despite effectively not actually producing particularly interesting Magic content (his rants are sometimes interesting, the openings are so absurdly mindless). Black Panther did super-well. But lets see how Pacific Rim 2 does, having replaced the white-and-Asian protagonists with black actors and a rap-based presentation.
I would say I said my piece, but we all know I will be back when my mouse charges...
I, personally, tend not to really notice a character's skin color, until it's pointed out to me, inevitably by someone complaining that my ethnicity is somehow tainting their fictional world by being overrepresented.
So, y'know, that's a great feeling.
And to complete that rhetorical circle, “White people get blamed for everything”.
Anywho, I personally don’t care. But, there is a point to be made about just doing things for the sake of diversity. While I don’t fall into the “skin color” minority, I may fall into another, common nerd stereotype that wizards may feel obligated at some point to include in their fictional world of magic that I just so happen to play to escape real world problems such as those. And let me tell you, there had better be a honest reason for doing so besides “cuz diversity bro”. Is all that says is “Hey, we know you’re not like everybody else in this particular way, so here, draw inspiration from this piece of cardboard/video game/television show”. Oh, you don’t say?
Now, after all that said, im not a lore-buff. From what I’ve gathered, those opposed to the “change” seem to have their concerns rooted specifically in that aspect of it, and not the “Hey, I’m Racist” kind of concern. It’s a valid criticism if it doesn’t match up with the lore. However, those on that side of the criticism need to accept an honest “story follow-up” if made available explaining the change.
I really like the card. I hope they do a cycle like this every couple of sets. By that I mean mono-colored non-generic cost creatures, across a multitude of CMC. I’d love to see some 4cmc dudes. Helps out a fun mechanic is devotion/chroma. Speaking of, imagine our knight buddy dropped down and followed up by Light from Within.
What you said is super-fair. However, Rosewater already admitted that they are forcibly over-representing women, people of color and LGBTQ to make up for alleged years of under-representation. Therefore, any in-world explanation cannot, by definition, be honest (to me at least).
Amazingly awesome card. But why is seemingly every Benalish and Serran black? Benalia was definitely European in Invasion... And am I wrong, or is every evil character white? Correct me if I am wrong, by all means.
I've noticed this as well. But it's not really surprising, given that most of WOTC hold to a far-left ideology that they try to force on us at every opportunity. From here on out we'll be seeing a lot more black and female Mary Sues, and we'll probably also see a few autistic sphinxes and transsexual dragons in wheelchairs because diversity.
I would actually love to see more black, LGBT, and disabled characters, but I'd like them introduced organically, not shoehorned in. Having what was clearly a Western medieval realm of knights suddenly filled with black people without explanation is jarring, just as having white Jamuraans in traditional African garb would be (though WOTC wouldn't do that, just as they wouldn't have blonde people on Amonkhet, because it'd be cultural appropriation, which only works one way). I know that this is fantasy and all, but suspension of disbelief and aesthetic coherence matter.
And I'm also insulted that WOTC thinks that it needs to push ethnic minority characters in order to get ethnic minority players. I come from an Indian background, and Saheeli Rai did nothing for me, because I don't need someone to share my skin colour in order to sympathise with them. I'd prefer that WOTC created characters with, y'know, character, rather than just expect us to like them because they're brown or female.
But hell, the true minority in this game seems to be people who think like us, because we get called Nazis and attacked for our opinions by the far-left people who dominate this game, including WOTC itself. End rant.
Honestly I couldn't have said it better myself without simply saying it just as you did. I most identify with Jace in this game, and he's white while I'm Mediterranean. Why? Because I admire how his character developed to feel like a reflection of myself, and was done with some exceptional writing, especially recently. But the disconnect I've been seeing in the aesthetic here is, as you said, jarring and frankly highlights how disingenuous I feel the racial selections have been, to undermine expectations/past depictions in order to deliver on a self-imposed quota. There's a whole continent of African people, and no one threw a fit when Teferi and his family etc. were depicted accurately. But I can't wait to be called a racist for expecting an Irish/Celtic/European concept such as Knights, originally depicted that way, gets twisted around, because.
Some representation is fine. Forced, propaganda style overrepresentation is not fine. Black people are not a third of MTG players.
I agree. Lately, it's been nothing but that. Don't even get me started on the female thing either. It's just suffocating. It's the worst when we have black people on planes like Theros and Innistrad, instead of Greek and German. Do I expect white or black or non-Japanese people on Kamigawa? No. Keep it accurate and true to source material and feeling natural and stop pushing an agenda. It's annoying. And frankly, I do care about the race depicted because frankly, I find white men to be the most attractive. I don't really care who this offends, we all have our type. And I tend to gravitate toward artwork I find attractive, so I do pay attention to the gender and race/appearance. I'm a Vorthos, of course I would. It's inaccurate to claim no one perceives these details. Representation isn't tainting anything. Disingenuous agenda pushing is just nauseating when it's overload like it has been.
100% on-point. The problem is that we are literally not allowed to feel more attracted/drawn to the woman depicted in Baneslayer Angel than we are in Lyra. To say so, despite being white ourselves, would be likely called racist.
And to complete that rhetorical circle, “White people get blamed for everything”.
I mean, I'm not one to self-flagellate or blindly generalize, but sometimes the shoe fits.
Anywho, I personally don’t care. But, there is a point to be made about just doing things for the sake of diversity.
In my work, I do presentations in schools related to marginalized subgroups in schools (specifically LGBTQ2S+ youth, but our presentations do branch out to cover other forms of 'otherness' found in schools). One of the areas that I sometimes present on is representation in the media, so it's a topic I have some degree of passion about. Representation shifts attitudes and normalizes the 'other'. It's vital for marginalized folk to see themselves in the media they consume (it's linked to self-esteem, undoing feelings of isolation, etc), and it's just as important that everyone else is exposed to nuanced examples of those marginalized folks. It leads to a society that is more comfortable with people after that increased representation.
I'd argue that diversity for diversity's sake (presuming that the characters/cultures/settings/etc involved are depicted at least neutrally and not stereotypically) is more a good thing than bad. If the representation isn't meant for you, you'll likely not really even notice (like I expect the reaction to Benalish Marshall to end up being), but for the folks it matters to it can be a pretty nice thing.
Now, after all that said, im not a lore-buff. From what I’ve gathered, those opposed to the “change” seem to have their concerns rooted specifically in that aspect of it, and not the “Hey, I’m Racist” kind of concern. It’s a valid criticism if it doesn’t match up with the lore. However, those on that side of the criticism need to accept an honest “story follow-up” if made available explaining the change.
You gave it a valiant effort, but I'm skeptical that that's honestly the motivation for some folks. Firstly, as many posters have explored, the lore side of things is very easy to understand without a specific word from on high to explain it. After upheaval (and I don't think anyone can argue Dominaria hasn't had a lot of that), people immigrate, it's not unrealistic (it has been depicted in the game a few times now) and I don't think requires an explanaton. Secondly, I think if you have to that far on a limb to justify your complaints about depictions of diverse people, your issue is much larger than one card.
Is it too much to ask for our Knights to have a Euro-centric look? Apparently so.
Yeah, it's super unfortunate how all of our knights can't be white like we think of them. Nevermind the fact that many knights were in fact black (well, Moors, so not just black) and the fantasy version you're thinking of is inherently whitewashed. If I'm not mistaken, there are Arthurian legends of black knights as well.
I get your point, I just don't sympathize with it.
Some representation is fine. Forced, propaganda style overrepresentation is not fine. Black people are not a third of MTG players.
I agree. Lately, it's been nothing but that. Don't even get me started on the female thing either. It's just suffocating. It's the worst when we have black people on planes like Theros and Innistrad, instead of Greek and German. Do I expect white or black or non-Japanese people on Kamigawa? No. Keep it accurate and true to source material and feeling natural and stop pushing an agenda. It's annoying. And frankly, I do care about the race depicted because frankly, I find white men to be the most attractive. I don't really care who this offends, we all have our type. And I tend to gravitate toward artwork I find attractive, so I do pay attention to the gender and race/appearance. I'm a Vorthos, of course I would. It's inaccurate to claim no one perceives these details. Representation isn't tainting anything. Disingenuous agenda pushing is just nauseating when it's overload like it has been.
The problem is that we are literally not allowed to feel more attracted/drawn to the woman depicted in Baneslayer Angel than we are in Lyra. To say so, despite being white ourselves, would be likely called racist.
But you get how those racial preferences are inherently influenced by racial biases, right? It does not mean a person is a racist, simply that they are being influenced by race-based biases. No one's saying you can't feel that way, but we can be intellectually honest about what it is.
Tiro of Meletis is spot on. So sick of this cringey forced diversity! Amonkhet had people of Middle Eastern and African appearance with no one (besides the Gatewatch) looking white and I was totally fine with it --it helps flesh out a world by building off of the real-world source material. Jamuraa is on Dominaria, fine, but keep the Jamuraans in Jamuraa and keep the Benalish in Benalia and keep the Otarians in Otaria. Mirage and Visions were awesome sets with mostly black people depicted in them. I loved the art from that era because it not only was more interesting to look at when compared to the blurry digitally altered crap they put out today, but all of the cards together created the feel of an Africa-inspired magical realm. One "different" character appearing amongst the "norm" every now and then is not the end of the world (ex. an Umezawa appearing in Dominaria), but this multi-culti b.s. Wizards is touting these days is gross. Forced diversity sucks. White people are great. Black people are great. Asian people are great. etc. etc. etc. No one is better than anyone else. But stop trying to mix them together! In the words of Muhammad Ali "Look at nature. Red birds stick with red birds. Blue birds stick with blue birds. Crows stick with crows." I'm not going to change my view on it.
Honestly, this card naming Humans with Radiant Destiny looks very strong in standard as a white weenie aggro. There's plenty of strong humans in Standard.
Glory Bound, Emissary of Sunrise, Sunscorge Champion, Vizier of Deferment. And since there are new guys coming in, such as the Hexproof Knight, Danitha, the Bodyguard.
Add in a few other supporting cards such as Shalai and you'll have a pretty decent deck with 8 anthem effects.
I would guess, not know, but guess, that there is a tension between Diversity (+, Teferi) Inclusion (Alesha/Ashiok) and Nostalgia (White Dude in Shining Armour).
If you trample too much on nostalgia (genderbender on old Comic hero's for example) do you gain more than you lose?
Full Disclosure: I'm all about diversity, inclusion, feminism, and the "evil leftist agenda" but it comes at a cost, if you stomp on our nostalgia too much.
Spirits
It actually sounds arrogant af to me,
but I suppose it's fitting?
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I think that's the point. It reeks of a dangerous superiority complex, which is chilling.
The card itself is nice from a gameplay standpoint, but I don't know why I'm surprised to see someone get twisted over the skin colour of the people depicted in these, even though a lot can happen in centuries.
The flavor text on Dauntless Bodyguard says the aristocracy is hereditary. But anyone can be knighted.
I have never seen anything to indicate that the majority of players notice the race (or gender for that matter) of characters in MtG's artwork. In fact, most Spike players don't care about flavor components at all so long as the cards are good. The only people I think notice are Vorthoses like myself, who like world building elements for their own sake, and people specifically looking for these details for one reason or another (whether because they want to complain, or because they feel left out, and I personally feel more sympathetic to the latter crowd).
Personally, as a Vorthos, I found Jamurra and the Mirage block in general to be really interesting, and was very disappointed when they got rid of Zalfir in Time Spiral specifically because I thought it did the game a bit of a disservice diversity wise. It was a unique place not only in Magic's multiverse of settings, but very rare in the Fantasy genre at large. I think they are making the right choice continuity wise to keep it phased out of time, but are making up for that mistake by showing that black people didn't completely disappear from Dominaria because of it. Most of Jamurra is still on the map they showed, and the other places of Dominaria are more diverse than before. If it makes people feel good to see themselves in the art, good. I can't understand the kind of person who complains about these things. The fantasy genre is better for evolving away from the "White people only" mindset (the more people I can share my hobbies with the better IMO), and Magic is better for being at the forefront of that aesthetic evolution.
I'm still not getting your issue with black people being depicted more often on these cards.
We're willing to accept that most characters in MTG were white in a time when white actors dominated media for nearly all important character roles that weren't stereotyped but now as media has evolved a couple of steps towards actually having important non-white roles we think it's some giant scheme to destroy white people in a fantasy game. It's almost like MTG's diversity has mirrored popular culture all along.
Jesus christ
He isn't going to just say it. He is going to keep acting like Magic representation is based on the population of players in the game and not based on actually representing people because it's a good thing to do.
"Forced propaganda". Oh no WOTC is forcing me to look at people who aren't white oh god. My mind is being overtaken by sjw propaganda.
The same people who have probably used the term special snowflake more than a few times in their lives are getting their panties in a twist when they see a black guy on a card.
-Chandra Nalaar
Neither are Greeks, Japanese, and Egyptians, but we still got Theros, Kamigawa, and Amonkhet. Nothing about it is forced or "propaganda", since they had black people on Dominaria all the way back in the 90's. A whole continent full of them. If anything, not including them would feel more inauthentic to anyone familiar with that era of the game. This is a world building issue, not a political one. It is only political because people perceive it to be.
From the batch of human cards that we have from Dominaria with artwork, there are 27 human creatures+planeswalkers in total. 18 are white, 7 are black, and 2 you can't say what they are (knight of malice and cabal paladin).
The data that I could quickly find on black people around the world tells me that they make 15% of the population, worldwide and in the US.
I wrote a script on MATLAB that calculates the chances of you picking a particular distribution of blacks/whites (here I'm calling everything non-black as white) with a 15% chance of picking a black person everytime. The chances of you getting a 18/7 representation, after iterating a hundred thousand times, is around 4.4%. If you count both knights as white people (since you think the white people are depicted as bad), the chances go up to about 5.9%. In the latter case, if this was a scientific hypothesis ('black people are being more represented than what is expected by chance'), it would be rejected. In the former, it would be accepted.
That is, however, with the cards that we have spoiled so far. Is that going to change at the end of spoiler season? It is possible. So far, if you count the knights as white people, you have no legs to stand on, otherwise, you might have a chance, heh.
chance = 0.15;
count = 0;
for i=1:100000
numberblack = 0;
for j=1:(white+black)
pick = rand;
if pick <= chance
numberblack = numberblack + 1;
end
end
if numberblack == black
count = count + 1;
end
end
Magic = (count/100000)*100;
end
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Ohhh...can you make it U/W to include Naban, Dean of Iteration?
I hope this post isn't locked because I do think that this is an interesting card for standard possibly. I hope it remains cheap so I can get a playset asap. Casuals like myself will love it!
Already selling out in some places. It started at $1 and now it's $2 sold out in the few stores I checked.
So, y'know, that's a great feeling.
If your nostalgia is tied up in the dominance of straight white male characters and their stories with little diversity or representation outside of that, you'll probably going to have to get used to that nostalgia getting trampled on. It's not like MtG (or really any media) is generally going to get less diverse over time.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing, but it really shouldn't be used as an excuse to exclude. Shrug.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
And to complete that rhetorical circle, “White people get blamed for everything”.
Anywho, I personally don’t care. But, there is a point to be made about just doing things for the sake of diversity. While I don’t fall into the “skin color” minority, I may fall into another, common nerd stereotype that wizards may feel obligated at some point to include in their fictional world of magic that I just so happen to play to escape real world problems such as those. And let me tell you, there had better be a honest reason for doing so besides “cuz diversity bro”. Is all that says is “Hey, we know you’re not like everybody else in this particular way, so here, draw inspiration from this piece of cardboard/video game/television show”. Oh, you don’t say?
Now, after all that said, im not a lore-buff. From what I’ve gathered, those opposed to the “change” seem to have their concerns rooted specifically in that aspect of it, and not the “Hey, I’m Racist” kind of concern. It’s a valid criticism if it doesn’t match up with the lore. However, those on that side of the criticism need to accept an honest “story follow-up” if made available explaining the change.
I really like the card. I hope they do a cycle like this every couple of sets. By that I mean mono-colored non-generic cost creatures, across a multitude of CMC. I’d love to see some 4cmc dudes. Helps out a fun mechanic is devotion/chroma. Speaking of, imagine our knight buddy dropped down and followed up by Light from Within.
Yep. I'm at least borderline self aware. I'm an older (in gamer terms) White, North American dude. I was thining on this while at my gym.
Another example, is Overwatch. If you are at all familiar with it, its very big on diversity. I look at this Benalish guy like this.
Symettra is from India. Strong female, Indian character. Great.
Ana, is from Egypt. Strong OLDER female, and she is Egyptian. Great.
Now. Picture in your mind, a Ninja. A Cyberninja. If you asked 100 people, 'Yo, where is a technological, cybernetic, Ninja, going to come from?' If you dont tell me 'Japan', then I'm giving you the 'wut' look.
If Genji, was a WHITE DUDE, I would be super pissed. He needs to be a japanese dude, and thats that.
So how do I bring this back to Benalish Marshal? Well, nostalgia.
Knights, are a Euro-centric trope. Some would say its one of the strongest tropes we have in a Fantasy setting. Right up there with Dragons, and Demons, and Angels.
Is it too much to ask for our Knights to have a Euro-centric look? Apparently so.
Wizards did this, on a pushed card, and they do it for a reason, and its selfish of us white folks to want it our way (it is, I accept that) because it doesnt serve our expectations.
I know its a failing on my part, just like how I want some more White Dudes in Overwatch because I'm selfish. I'm cool with my understanding of that.
Spirits
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Ashiok: I am sorry, but you are adding a highly unnecessary calculation to a simple equation. Black people, in the US, make up about 12-13% of the population. Using your statistics, 7 are black, and 18 are white (lets ignore the knights entirely, since their race was not made to be a prominent issue). 28% are black. There is no need for complex statistics.
If one actually looks at who plays Magic, the numbers overwhelmingly suggest white and Asian men. My mouse is charging, so I do not have the energy to unearth the statistics (to the extent they exist) but anecdotally, I suspect that in the US, white males make up 85% of the player base, and white and Asian men together make up, globally, probably...the same? Depends how you classify South America, where the game is popular, I believe. Certainly, the 28% present representation of blacks in the present set as revealed is...strange.
I also have zero problem with Teferi or any character explicitly out of Jamurra. I like Teferi, I never felt it was forced at all, and I am happy to see him again. But the idea that black men (and women) are now highly represented in the knightly caste of Benalia is forced. The idea that angels, modeled from Serra's vision millennia ago, are now suddenly also black (both Lyra and Serra Angel, by the way) is more than forced.
I looked at the new map of Dominaria to see how believable a mass Jamurran migration to far-west Aerona was. It is not. The distance seems to be as far, relative to earth, as from San Francisco to Mongolia. Dominaria is 2.5 times the size of Earth. Seems...unlikely. And we never had a mention of a Jamuuran exodus.
Formless_One: I have zero problem with no white people on Tarkir. Its a pan-Asian world modeled after the 11th century or so. In fact, I would be perplexed if there were random white people there. The only thing about Tarkir that was absurd is the idea of the brutal Mardu horde following "Alesha", a thin boy who wanted to be thought of as a girl. Yep, the same clan Zurgo, a giant orc, seized by force and sorcery, he seized while not knowing which bathroom tent to us.
Others: Fantasy is escapism. It is about imagining yourself as the characters. You want people to relate to the characters. When the majority of your player base is white or Asian, and so many of the heroic characters (the Gix-worshipper aside, the villains are white as hell, and the Cabal seemingly entirely so) are of an ethnicity that the players are not, escapism becomes hard.
Furthermore, it IS fantasy, but its meant to be a layover of the real world, not an abolition of all its logical rules. You CAN imagine Serra Angels black, but it does not make sense in-story, and it requires additional hoops. The same is true for the amount of fighters, soldiers and knights who are women. Human beings have some of the most drastic sexual dimorphism in nature. Our females are substantially physically weaker, especially in the upper body. Angels are one thing (they are magical by nature), as are archers and sorceresses. But the constant barrage of female strength-hero types is absurd. Though I do find the new Radha oddly more attractive in her new, jacked form.
The question is: why? To make EVERYONE feel welcome? But does Teferi not accomplish that? Why force over-integration, as openly stated is a goal by Rosewater. I play the game (or used to, as far as buying cards is concerned) for myself, not to feel "inclusive." I want to feel a connection. In a world where I am constantly reminded how different and sensitive people not like myself are, and how I must be sure to make them feel, it is very hard to also, simultaneously, expect me to relate and be color-blind when those characters are meant to be my proxies in the fantasy game. You cannot have it both ways.
I DO believe comics are failing in large part because of the cultural disconnect between fans and makers. There is a reason Jeremy Hambly has such a massive following despite effectively not actually producing particularly interesting Magic content (his rants are sometimes interesting, the openings are so absurdly mindless). Black Panther did super-well. But lets see how Pacific Rim 2 does, having replaced the white-and-Asian protagonists with black actors and a rap-based presentation.
I would say I said my piece, but we all know I will be back when my mouse charges...
What you said is super-fair. However, Rosewater already admitted that they are forcibly over-representing women, people of color and LGBTQ to make up for alleged years of under-representation. Therefore, any in-world explanation cannot, by definition, be honest (to me at least).
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I mean, I'm not one to self-flagellate or blindly generalize, but sometimes the shoe fits.
In my work, I do presentations in schools related to marginalized subgroups in schools (specifically LGBTQ2S+ youth, but our presentations do branch out to cover other forms of 'otherness' found in schools). One of the areas that I sometimes present on is representation in the media, so it's a topic I have some degree of passion about. Representation shifts attitudes and normalizes the 'other'. It's vital for marginalized folk to see themselves in the media they consume (it's linked to self-esteem, undoing feelings of isolation, etc), and it's just as important that everyone else is exposed to nuanced examples of those marginalized folks. It leads to a society that is more comfortable with people after that increased representation.
I'd argue that diversity for diversity's sake (presuming that the characters/cultures/settings/etc involved are depicted at least neutrally and not stereotypically) is more a good thing than bad. If the representation isn't meant for you, you'll likely not really even notice (like I expect the reaction to Benalish Marshall to end up being), but for the folks it matters to it can be a pretty nice thing.
You gave it a valiant effort, but I'm skeptical that that's honestly the motivation for some folks. Firstly, as many posters have explored, the lore side of things is very easy to understand without a specific word from on high to explain it. After upheaval (and I don't think anyone can argue Dominaria hasn't had a lot of that), people immigrate, it's not unrealistic (it has been depicted in the game a few times now) and I don't think requires an explanaton. Secondly, I think if you have to that far on a limb to justify your complaints about depictions of diverse people, your issue is much larger than one card.
Yeah, it's super unfortunate how all of our knights can't be white like we think of them. Nevermind the fact that many knights were in fact black (well, Moors, so not just black) and the fantasy version you're thinking of is inherently whitewashed. If I'm not mistaken, there are Arthurian legends of black knights as well.
I get your point, I just don't sympathize with it.
Wow.
But you get how those racial preferences are inherently influenced by racial biases, right? It does not mean a person is a racist, simply that they are being influenced by race-based biases. No one's saying you can't feel that way, but we can be intellectually honest about what it is.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Glory Bound, Emissary of Sunrise, Sunscorge Champion, Vizier of Deferment. And since there are new guys coming in, such as the Hexproof Knight, Danitha, the Bodyguard.
Add in a few other supporting cards such as Shalai and you'll have a pretty decent deck with 8 anthem effects.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards