Just hopped onto the conversation on page 18. I have agree with those griping about the removal the past several years. I'm tired of jumping through hoops for marginal effects. The removal in this set overall feels like a giant eff you to those of us who fondly remember growing up with Lightning Bolt and Counterspell. That said I was happy to see a functional reprint of Into the Roil in Blink of an Eye. Oh yeah and Llanowar Elves too (though I'm guessing it will be reprinted at rare)
So far, the removal should be fine. 47 of the 72 creatures spoiled thus far are 3/3 or less (I don't count the two 0/0 creatures since their stats may vary) and 51 creatures are x/3 or less, so any 3-dmg spell will deal with them (presuming we are using red-based removal since none of them inherently have hexproof or hexproof from red). Where things start to get interesting is when you examine the average cmc of these creatures--the average cmc for all creatures x/3 or less is 3.762, so even if you are spending 3 mana to kill them that is still more efficient than the creatures, from a cmc point of view. The creatures which are strictly 2/2 have an average cmc of 3.3125 while 3/3 creatures have an average cmc of 4.09. Right now in Standard, the average cmcs for 2/2, 3/3, and all creatures x/3 or less are 2.85, 3.99, and 3.43, respectively. Bottom line, spending 3 or 4 mana for unconditional removal will be perfectly acceptable since the average cmc of the creatures is fairly high in this set (as it has been spoiled thus far).
Just hopped onto the conversation on page 18. I have agree with those griping about the removal the past several years. I'm tired of jumping through hoops for marginal effects. The removal in this set overall feels like a giant eff you to those of us who fondly remember growing up with Lightning Bolt and Counterspell. That said I was happy to see a functional reprint of Into the Roil in Blink of an Eye. Oh yeah and Llanowar Elves too (though I'm guessing it will be reprinted at rare)
Elves is an uncommon at most. It's fine for draft and people often need multiples.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So far, the removal should be fine. 47 of the 72 creatures spoiled thus far are 3/3 or less (I don't count the two 0/0 creatures since their stats may vary) and 51 creatures are x/3 or less, so any 3-dmg spell will deal with them (presuming we are using red-based removal since none of them inherently have hexproof or hexproof from red). Where things start to get interesting is when you examine the average cmc of these creatures--the average cmc for all creatures x/3 or less is 3.762, so even if you are spending 3 mana to kill them that is still more efficient than the creatures, from a cmc point of view. The creatures which are strictly 2/2 have an average cmc of 3.3125 while 3/3 creatures have an average cmc of 4.09. Right now in Standard, the average cmcs for 2/2, 3/3, and all creatures x/3 or less are 2.85, 3.99, and 3.43, respectively. Bottom line, spending 3 or 4 mana for unconditional removal will be perfectly acceptable since the average cmc of the creatures is fairly high in this set (as it has been spoiled thus far).
Sorry, but this analysis misses the mark in many different levels.
First: it is pointless to look at averages casting costs based on thoughness of creatures. What matter is what creatures are actually playable, what is their resilience to removal and what sort of advantage they generate just by resolving on the battlefield. As examples: whirler virtuoso is a 2/3 at 3, on parity with the 'new bolt', but in reality it can almost always leave a token behind. Kari Zev is in essence a 3-power creature that costs 2, scrapheap scrounger is a 3 power at 2 that can recurr from the graveyard, and the examples pile on and on. My point - you have to see the average cmc for the PLAYABLE creatures, and even that you have to factor in your analysis how much advantage the player got just by having them resolve into play. If you trade 1-for-1 with creatures that always produce some sort of advantage, you're losing that game.
Second: as a general rule, threats outnumber removal. What you want is your removal spells to be more efficient than your threats, though not by a chrusing margin. That's partly because decks that play lots os removal also need win-cons, mostly on the higher CMC end. If they draw the wrong portion of their deck they can be unable to cast their cards properly. In short - what would you rather be: a burn deck stuck on one land or a control deck stuck on one land? Probably the burn deck right?
Third: having decks be constrained to play creatures just hampers the diversity of the strategies available. Many decks can play bolt, but this new bolt presumably will only be okay in wizard shells, forcing you to be in a particular archetype. Look at RTR standard where you had 4-mana wraths and some of the best removal ever printed - abrupt decay, dreadbore, d-sphere, etc. The diversity was astounding. Granted the colors on the card constrained what type of deck you could play those cards, but that is a much lesser constrain when compared to 'playing wizards'. Making conditional removal is basically a way for WoTC to pre-package the archetypes that will be available, much the same way that pushing energy forced people to play energy cards.
In short, you need to account for the average CMC of playable creatures and consider if they generate advantage or not, you have to consider that removal has to be slightly MORE efficient than threats in order to account for the variance in gameplay and you have to see the damaging effect of conditional removal in building archetypes in the long run.
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You are asking of Standard, the same tight constraints you see in Modern, in points 1 and 2, while in point 3....you are basically just saying 'This is a Standard set'.
I'm all about what RTR did, my current deck has several RTR cards to this day, as a pointer to 'RTR was powerful'. Its like Khan's though, they dont always (often?) want to hit that power level.
Look at RTR standard where you had 4-mana wraths and some of the best removal ever printed - abrupt decay, dreadbore, d-sphere, etc. The diversity was astounding. Granted the colors on the card constrained what type of deck you could play those cards, but that is a much lesser constrain when compared to 'playing wizards'. Making conditional removal is basically a way for WoTC to pre-package the archetypes that will be available, much the same way that pushing energy forced people to play energy cards.
The past is in the past. We have to deal with the cards as they exist right now, not keep comparing them to how cards used to be in "the good old days". If you want to keep reliving the old glory days of RTR then keep playing Modern and/or Legacy. I *never* analyze cards for those formats because I don't play those formats.
The only demonstrable measure of "efficiency" *is* converted mana cost, even if we factor in a creature's etb effects. The spells which deal with all the creatures you mention, as well as with many other creatures currently being played in Standard, all cost 1 or 2 mana--Fatal Push, Abrade, Harnessed Lightning, etc. Decks in Standard which contain a lot of removal all typically have the same win-con, either Torrential Gearhulk or The Scarab God, unless they are using Hazoret.
Building decks based around creatures is not stifling diversity. Nearly two-thirds of the most-played decks in Standard right now, comprised of at least ten different archetypes, are >= 70% creatures. I know a lot of people don't like that but I didn't design the sets.
We will simply disagree on this topic. You are over there, I am over here, and that is perfectly fine.
I'm not going to be worried too much about removal quite yet. We still have another 40% of the set to go. Now I'm sure the removal won't be very good, but at the very least I'm going to wait for everything to come out first before I start to decree the removal is bad. I quite like Wizard Counterspell and Bolt and it shouldn't be too hard to get them to work, although hopefully they have some decent stuff outside of that.
I don't know if I'm late to the party, but as we know there will be new frames for legends. Do you think they may make some pseudo expedition/masterpiece style cards of legends from the past and in the Dominaria? Like a Karthus, Captain Sisay, Umezawa's Jitte, or Academy Ruins?
I don't know if I'm late to the party, but as we know there will be new frames for legends. Do you think they may make some pseudo expedition/masterpiece style cards of legends from the past and in the Dominaria? Like a Karthus, Captain Sisay, Umezawa's Jitte, or Academy Ruins?
In past sets that had masterpieces, there was a substantial paragraph in the release notes talking about them. Well, we've seen the release notes for Dominaria, and they have no such thing. So I would think it unlikely that there's a Masterpiece series here.
I don't know if I'm late to the party, but as we know there will be new frames for legends. Do you think they may make some pseudo expedition/masterpiece style cards of legends from the past and in the Dominaria? Like a Karthus, Captain Sisay, Umezawa's Jitte, or Academy Ruins?
In past sets that had masterpieces, there was a substantial paragraph in the release notes talking about them. Well, we've seen the release notes for Dominaria, and they have no such thing. So I would think it unlikely that there's a Masterpiece series here.
And that is dissapointing........for now Dominaria only gets half my checking account instead of all of it.
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Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
Dominaria looks hella exciting considering the reprints and some of the new cards, can't believe llanowar elves and icy manipulator will be in standard again. The set is more iconic than masters 25 and considering the pack prices probably even a better investment.
Can't wait for it to come out and see what other cards are in it that haven't been spoiled so far.
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"May he who is without mana cast the first spell!"
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Just hopped onto the conversation on page 18. I have agree with those griping about the removal the past several years. I'm tired of jumping through hoops for marginal effects. The removal in this set overall feels like a giant eff you to those of us who fondly remember growing up with Lightning Bolt and Counterspell. That said I was happy to see a functional reprint of Into the Roil in Blink of an Eye. Oh yeah and Llanowar Elves too (though I'm guessing it will be reprinted at rare)
The big mistake here was not reprinting Lightning Bolt and Counterspell in Dominaria instead of Masters 25 where they would've been Standard legal. That would've saved them the trouble of releasing Challenger Decks where they could've reprinted cards months in advance before the next set rotation. Ever since they changed the way sets rotate out of Standard it's been harder for people to break into it afraid that a popular deck will become the next victim of a new card banning that ends up costing players money to recover from.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
The big mistake here was not reprinting Lightning Bolt and Counterspell in Dominaria instead of Masters 25 where they would've been Standard legal.
Why do people keep asking for Lightning Bolt? The last time it was in Standard it completely warped the kind of creatures you generally used. It wasn't a great time.
The big mistake here was not reprinting Lightning Bolt and Counterspell in Dominaria instead of Masters 25 where they would've been Standard legal.
Why do people keep asking for Lightning Bolt? The last time it was in Standard it completely warped the kind of creatures you generally used. It wasn't a great time.
Speak for yourself. Take a look at the wealth of awesomeness M11 gave us. I'll take Jace vs. Prime Time over these stupid energy energy decks all day. 2009-20012 is easily the greatest time period to have been playing Magic in the Modern era.
The big mistake here was not reprinting Lightning Bolt and Counterspell in Dominaria instead of Masters 25 where they would've been Standard legal.
Why do people keep asking for Lightning Bolt? The last time it was in Standard it completely warped the kind of creatures you generally used. It wasn't a great time.
Bolt is never a bad thing. I will shed no tears for Creature decks, ever.
The big mistake here was not reprinting Lightning Bolt and Counterspell in Dominaria instead of Masters 25 where they would've been Standard legal.
Why do people keep asking for Lightning Bolt? The last time it was in Standard it completely warped the kind of creatures you generally used. It wasn't a great time.
Speak for yourself. Take a look at the wealth of awesomeness M11 gave us. I'll take Jace vs. Prime Time over these stupid energy energy decks all day. 2009-20012 is easily the greatest time period to have been playing Magic in the Modern era.
Look, I'd prefer that as well, but then we have to sit through inspecting every creature if it survives the "Bolt Test" or if it's worth casting even if it dies. Bolt warps the game in a weird way and while I'm all for better removal Bolt is something that seems a step too far.
Does anybody know when we're going to get the spoiled images, or when those will start being revealed?
One week from today.
Quote from the Mothership (3/12):
"We're going to kick off our Dominaria talk (intentionally) on Wednesday, March 21. We're going to have a bunch of content that day to start things right, including the mechanics and rules articles that we originally said would be up today".
The big mistake here was not reprinting Lightning Bolt and Counterspell in Dominaria instead of Masters 25 where they would've been Standard legal.
Why do people keep asking for Lightning Bolt? The last time it was in Standard it completely warped the kind of creatures you generally used. It wasn't a great time.
Seriously, that card has been considered overpowered for most of the game's history, not just in the modern day. They stopped reprinting it in core sets all the way back in fifth edition, and replaced it with shock in sixth. I started playing the game in seventh edition, so between shock and lightning bolt I have more nostalgia for shock. Its players who either started the game all the way back in the beginning or in 2010 when they first risked reprinting bolt that are really nostalgic for the OP spell.
Hell, of the five "three for one" spells from Alpha, one is on the Power Nine list, Dark Ritual made turn one Necropotence possible, Bolt is Bolt, healing salve was the only one that was underpowered, and the only one that was perfectly balanced was giant growth. It turns out that three-for-one spells are quite difficult to balance properly for the value they offer.
Shock is in Kaladesh and thus standard legal, so they have no reason to print the strictly better spell. Wizard's Lightning allows them to pay homage to Lightning Bolt without breaking the meta, so they can have their nostalgia without issue. Same for Wizard's Retort, although I do generally agree that counterspell wasn't broken; in fact, IIRC the designers have said that it isn't, its just that it restricts design space because the KISS principle demands its inclusion in mono-blue decks. Never mind that they keep reprinting Negate.
Personally, I have way more nostalgia for Goblin Grenade than I do for Bolt. Grenade won me way more games when I used to play goblins back in the mid-90's than Bolt (which I also included in the deck). If Wizards wants to make goblins competitive in Standard again, reprint Goblin Grenade in Dominaria or Core Set 2019!
Anyway, back on topic, Dominaria has got my brewing juices flowing ever since the leak last week, which is a strong marker of a good set to me. Sylvan Awakening seems kind of busted TBH, and I've been thinking about a Bant control shell with four Awakenings, a bunch of ramp, and a few Gideon, Martial Paragons (the +2 is disgusting with Awakening) and/or Trial of Solidarities. Awakening also works great for the defense, too!
Hell, of the five "three for one" spells from Alpha, one is on the Power Nine list, Dark Ritual made turn one Necropotence possible, Bolt is Bolt, healing salve was the only one that was underpowered, and the only one that was perfectly balanced was giant growth. It turns out that three-for-one spells are quite difficult to balance properly for the value they offer.
One could also consider Mana Vault to be the colorless card of the cycle, and it's considered one of the most broken mana sources in the game.
Even if you have no other creatures on the battlefield at all, once you hit 5 lands you can Sylvan Awakening into Ghalta (presuming you have three green sources, which you probably do).
With 6 lands you could Sylvan Awakening followed by Harvest Season to find 6 more basic lands, if you are into that sort of thing.
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If you don't like Standard, and I don't blame you, just play Modern.
Expecting a real Bolt, when they can do stuff like these Wizards things, is setting yourself up for disappointment.
This set will actually have real potential for removal.
Spirits
So far, the removal should be fine. 47 of the 72 creatures spoiled thus far are 3/3 or less (I don't count the two 0/0 creatures since their stats may vary) and 51 creatures are x/3 or less, so any 3-dmg spell will deal with them (presuming we are using red-based removal since none of them inherently have hexproof or hexproof from red). Where things start to get interesting is when you examine the average cmc of these creatures--the average cmc for all creatures x/3 or less is 3.762, so even if you are spending 3 mana to kill them that is still more efficient than the creatures, from a cmc point of view. The creatures which are strictly 2/2 have an average cmc of 3.3125 while 3/3 creatures have an average cmc of 4.09. Right now in Standard, the average cmcs for 2/2, 3/3, and all creatures x/3 or less are 2.85, 3.99, and 3.43, respectively. Bottom line, spending 3 or 4 mana for unconditional removal will be perfectly acceptable since the average cmc of the creatures is fairly high in this set (as it has been spoiled thus far).
Elves is an uncommon at most. It's fine for draft and people often need multiples.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
First: it is pointless to look at averages casting costs based on thoughness of creatures. What matter is what creatures are actually playable, what is their resilience to removal and what sort of advantage they generate just by resolving on the battlefield. As examples: whirler virtuoso is a 2/3 at 3, on parity with the 'new bolt', but in reality it can almost always leave a token behind. Kari Zev is in essence a 3-power creature that costs 2, scrapheap scrounger is a 3 power at 2 that can recurr from the graveyard, and the examples pile on and on. My point - you have to see the average cmc for the PLAYABLE creatures, and even that you have to factor in your analysis how much advantage the player got just by having them resolve into play. If you trade 1-for-1 with creatures that always produce some sort of advantage, you're losing that game.
Second: as a general rule, threats outnumber removal. What you want is your removal spells to be more efficient than your threats, though not by a chrusing margin. That's partly because decks that play lots os removal also need win-cons, mostly on the higher CMC end. If they draw the wrong portion of their deck they can be unable to cast their cards properly. In short - what would you rather be: a burn deck stuck on one land or a control deck stuck on one land? Probably the burn deck right?
Third: having decks be constrained to play creatures just hampers the diversity of the strategies available. Many decks can play bolt, but this new bolt presumably will only be okay in wizard shells, forcing you to be in a particular archetype. Look at RTR standard where you had 4-mana wraths and some of the best removal ever printed - abrupt decay, dreadbore, d-sphere, etc. The diversity was astounding. Granted the colors on the card constrained what type of deck you could play those cards, but that is a much lesser constrain when compared to 'playing wizards'. Making conditional removal is basically a way for WoTC to pre-package the archetypes that will be available, much the same way that pushing energy forced people to play energy cards.
In short, you need to account for the average CMC of playable creatures and consider if they generate advantage or not, you have to consider that removal has to be slightly MORE efficient than threats in order to account for the variance in gameplay and you have to see the damaging effect of conditional removal in building archetypes in the long run.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
I'm all about what RTR did, my current deck has several RTR cards to this day, as a pointer to 'RTR was powerful'. Its like Khan's though, they dont always (often?) want to hit that power level.
Spirits
The past is in the past. We have to deal with the cards as they exist right now, not keep comparing them to how cards used to be in "the good old days". If you want to keep reliving the old glory days of RTR then keep playing Modern and/or Legacy. I *never* analyze cards for those formats because I don't play those formats.
The only demonstrable measure of "efficiency" *is* converted mana cost, even if we factor in a creature's etb effects. The spells which deal with all the creatures you mention, as well as with many other creatures currently being played in Standard, all cost 1 or 2 mana--Fatal Push, Abrade, Harnessed Lightning, etc. Decks in Standard which contain a lot of removal all typically have the same win-con, either Torrential Gearhulk or The Scarab God, unless they are using Hazoret.
Building decks based around creatures is not stifling diversity. Nearly two-thirds of the most-played decks in Standard right now, comprised of at least ten different archetypes, are >= 70% creatures. I know a lot of people don't like that but I didn't design the sets.
We will simply disagree on this topic. You are over there, I am over here, and that is perfectly fine.
Definitely not even close here
For example I still don't see a squirrel tribal nor demon tribal (kaalia doesn't count because angels and dragons makes her a multitribal.)
In past sets that had masterpieces, there was a substantial paragraph in the release notes talking about them. Well, we've seen the release notes for Dominaria, and they have no such thing. So I would think it unlikely that there's a Masterpiece series here.
And that is dissapointing........for now Dominaria only gets half my checking account instead of all of it.
Can't wait for it to come out and see what other cards are in it that haven't been spoiled so far.
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Why do people keep asking for Lightning Bolt? The last time it was in Standard it completely warped the kind of creatures you generally used. It wasn't a great time.
Bolt is never a bad thing. I will shed no tears for Creature decks, ever.
Spirits
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Look, I'd prefer that as well, but then we have to sit through inspecting every creature if it survives the "Bolt Test" or if it's worth casting even if it dies. Bolt warps the game in a weird way and while I'm all for better removal Bolt is something that seems a step too far.
As for Counterspell, I'm all for Mana Leak.
One week from today.
Quote from the Mothership (3/12):
"We're going to kick off our Dominaria talk (intentionally) on Wednesday, March 21. We're going to have a bunch of content that day to start things right, including the mechanics and rules articles that we originally said would be up today".
Link: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/dominaria-previews-and-moving-forward-2018-03-12.
Seriously, that card has been considered overpowered for most of the game's history, not just in the modern day. They stopped reprinting it in core sets all the way back in fifth edition, and replaced it with shock in sixth. I started playing the game in seventh edition, so between shock and lightning bolt I have more nostalgia for shock. Its players who either started the game all the way back in the beginning or in 2010 when they first risked reprinting bolt that are really nostalgic for the OP spell.
Hell, of the five "three for one" spells from Alpha, one is on the Power Nine list, Dark Ritual made turn one Necropotence possible, Bolt is Bolt, healing salve was the only one that was underpowered, and the only one that was perfectly balanced was giant growth. It turns out that three-for-one spells are quite difficult to balance properly for the value they offer.
Shock is in Kaladesh and thus standard legal, so they have no reason to print the strictly better spell. Wizard's Lightning allows them to pay homage to Lightning Bolt without breaking the meta, so they can have their nostalgia without issue. Same for Wizard's Retort, although I do generally agree that counterspell wasn't broken; in fact, IIRC the designers have said that it isn't, its just that it restricts design space because the KISS principle demands its inclusion in mono-blue decks. Never mind that they keep reprinting Negate.
Anyway, back on topic, Dominaria has got my brewing juices flowing ever since the leak last week, which is a strong marker of a good set to me. Sylvan Awakening seems kind of busted TBH, and I've been thinking about a Bant control shell with four Awakenings, a bunch of ramp, and a few Gideon, Martial Paragons (the +2 is disgusting with Awakening) and/or Trial of Solidarities. Awakening also works great for the defense, too!
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Even if you have no other creatures on the battlefield at all, once you hit 5 lands you can Sylvan Awakening into Ghalta (presuming you have three green sources, which you probably do).
With 6 lands you could Sylvan Awakening followed by Harvest Season to find 6 more basic lands, if you are into that sort of thing.