See the thing is, that if you read each of those Chandras, the original says "Chandra Nalaar deals 1 damage to target player." and the new one says "Chandra, Torch of Defiance deals two damage to each opponent." If a spell or ability targets a player with damage, it could also target a planeswalker. If it doesn't target, I.E. by saying "each" instead of target, then it can't target a planeswalker because it doesn't target anything. That's not hard. It's just as complex as saying that you can't hit a hexproof creature with Shock but it would be hit by Pyroclasm. The distinction is already written in the card text and there shouldn't be any discrepancy. If it targets you can target a planeswalker, if it doesn't, you can't.
I wasn't talking about Chandra, Torch of Defiance, I was talking about the new Chandra, Bold Pyromancer in the new Dominaria set, spoiled in that leaked FAQ. That Chandra has the following plus ability:
+1: Add RR. Chandra, Bold Pyromancer deals 2 damage to target player.
That ability can not target planeswalkers. The original Chandra Nalaar has an ability with the same template ("deal damage to target player"), yet it can target planeswalkers. See what I mean? Besides, Chandra, Torch of Defiance is an example of another templating mess they created, where "damage to each opponent" and "damage to target opponent" can functionally mean several different things depending solely on when the card was printed. Some of those cards can be used to damage planeswalkers, some of them don't.
And it's not just the different Chandras that are affected, it's every card that has previously been printed with the template "deal damage to target player" or "deal damage to target / each opponent" vs. every new card that gets printed with that same template. The card text is the exact same, but the functionality is different. This means you can't really play the game as-is, without resorting to online FAQs and rules clarifications. Yes, there has been errata before, but never on a scale like this. Previously errata has also mostly concerned single cards, but now it affects a very basic and prominent feature of the game itself: direct damage to players. A massive amount of cards no longer do what the card text says. In other words, the game is broken. There's really no discussing that, it's just how it is.
We can, however, discuss the significance of this. Yeah, maybe I'm overreacting a bit and maybe the sky won't fall after all. Maybe the existing player base can get through this with just minor annoyance. But it does raise the entry barrier for new players, and makes the game that much harder to teach. Magic is a bit of a hard sell even as it is, and I can easily see something like this turning a lot of potential players away from the game. There are so many card games out there, and a lot of them are nowadays either self contained, or use the living card game model with no random purchases. Not to mention the variety of modern board games in general.
CCG's are stigmatized enough. They are seen as cynical, pay-to-win cash grabbers especially compared to LCG's. A game where you also need to tell new players they have to check on the internet how a significant amount of cards actually work, and remind them to really check each and every card individually because even the rules text on the cards themselves can not be consistently translated... yeah, it's not hard to imagine people would rather spend their time on some other game that's not constanly demanding money from them, and actually works the way it's written.
I'm speaking from experience, by the way. MTG is one of my favorite games ever, but it's so very hard to get new people interested in it nowadays. ***** like this is one of the reasons why. So hopefully you can understand why I'm frustrated.
.
.
.
- All of the above could be fixed by making MTG strictly a digital product. All of it. Just sayin'.
This might be true but this is not going to be a majority opinion. Hanging out with friends in person and the flexibility of physical product is important. There are many things you can do with physical product that you can't do or would be much harder to do if they made it digital-only.
I wasn't really advocating the idea of getting rid of paper MTG, and I hope they don't do that anytime soon. But I wouldn't be surprised if the idea hasn't been seriously discussed somewhere in the depths of WotC or, more likely, Hasbro.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go reinforce my tinfoil hats.
Needs a lot of reinforcement; from the same article you are citing: "Also, because it's designed to be a paper game, it has a quality to it that is just different from all the video games out there. I believe this distinct difference is a huge advantage for Magic."
Yeah, that was a really weird thing to say from them. It's almost as if they don't pay any attention at all to what's going on outside of computer games and Magic. Board gaming in general is going through a golden age right now, both in popularity and the amount of games released. There's really no shortage of physical games out there if that's what people want. Or am I just misunderstanding something? :S
Board gaming in general is going through a golden age right now, both in popularity and the amount of games released. There's really no shortage of physical games out there if that's what people want. Or am I just misunderstanding something? :S
I'm sure Maro has said something along the lines of: Magic's players have been playing Magic on average longer than the lifespan of other games.
It doesn't matter if there are a lot of physical games. Magic is competing with them quite well.
The issue is that the redirection rule in hindsight was a mistake. It added unnecessary complexity to the game, when simply printing damage spells that explicitly stated that they could hit planeswalkers would have been better in the long run.
I would have been fine with leaving the rule alone though, given the massive number of cards affected by this change.
Wasn't it also done so that older cards could interact with planeswalkers?
The issue is that the redirection rule in hindsight was a mistake. It added unnecessary complexity to the game, when simply printing damage spells that explicitly stated that they could hit planeswalkers would have been better in the long run.
I would have been fine with leaving the rule alone though, given the massive number of cards affected by this change.
Wasn't it also done so that older cards could interact with planeswalkers?
That's why I said "in hindsight". They had their reasons for doing it, but it's looking like they concluded that those reasons aren't enough to justify continuing with it.
Board gaming in general is going through a golden age right now, both in popularity and the amount of games released. There's really no shortage of physical games out there if that's what people want. Or am I just misunderstanding something? :S
I'm sure Maro has said something along the lines of: Magic's players have been playing Magic on average longer than the lifespan of other games.
It doesn't matter if there are a lot of physical games. Magic is competing with them quite well.
I'm not even sure how you could measure the lifespan of all other games. Most of them are not even trying to do the same thing as Magic, such as maintaining a competitive scene and supporting two big online products, and they are also meant to be one time purchases.
Again, I meant this from the perspective of a potential new player. Someone who just walks into a game store looking for something to play with their friends. What does Magic have to offer them? They canceled the Duel Decks, and those were for two players only anyway, so... Archenemy: Nicol Bolas and Explorers of Ixalan? Do you think those products measure up, in this context, against something like Star Realms, Imperial Settlers, Race for the Galaxy, Lord of the Rings LCG, Pandemic, Great Western Trail, Dominion etc? Especially considering the resale / trading value for Archenemy and Explorers is pretty much zero. I know a lot of people who like to gather around a table to play all kinds of physical games, and from my perspective this is the battle that Magic has already pretty much lost.
Also, the fact that MTG Arena is based on a physical game is not a strength, if that is what the quote meant. Quite the opposite, it's a pretty big disadvantage compared to other, purely digital card games out there.
However, having said all that, I must applaud them for embracing the more casual side of the game by going all in with products like Commander, Planechase, Conspiracy, Unstable, the upcoming Battlebond etc. I actually really like the idea of Explorers of Ixalan as well, it's just that the product was way overpriced for what it was. Never really liked Archenemy, though, that one's just badly executed. But kudos to them for at least trying!
History has proven that MTG is indeed quite robust, and has been able to recover from some pretty dark times. I'm still genuinely worried about the direction WotC is heading, going from one blunder to another for how long now? Of course I hope for the best, but I also wasn't kidding with that mid-90's Sega comparison. :/
The problem with THAT is introducing yet another nearly-identical card has effects on degeneracy of builds. Burn decks would start running 4x oldBolt AND 4x newBolt, and they don’t really want to encourage that.
Then don't print that exact card. It is a whole new playing field.
Wasn't it also done so that older cards could interact with planeswalkers?
Yes. There was also some trepidation regarding explicitly mentioning a card type that only appears at rare in card text in the beginning. Cards like Dreadbore and Despise were a new course.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I'm mildly annoyed that Earthquake and company get worse with this update as they'll no longer be able to hit planeswalkers. Regardless, I'm a fan of this change overall. The redirection rule has always been awkward.
This rules change is the one thing that got me thinking maybe they are going to start a new non rotating format. There's just too many cards getting impacted at once and they may make a temporary format that contains the cards they've updated.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This rules change is the one thing that got me thinking maybe they are going to start a new non rotating format. There's just too many cards getting impacted at once and they may make a temporary format that contains the cards they've updated.
A post-Modern format is coming, at some point but I think this change has more to do with Arena than anything else. The shortening of a cards' text makes it alot easier to display on the digital cards.
This rules change is the one thing that got me thinking maybe they are going to start a new non rotating format. There's just too many cards getting impacted at once and they may make a temporary format that contains the cards they've updated.
A post-Modern format is coming, at some point but I think this change has more to do with Arena than anything else. The shortening of a cards' text makes it alot easier to display on the digital cards.
True. But are we talking about the damage redirection or the template changes? I don't see how the rules for damage redirection has much to do with Arena other than lazy programmers. (And before anyone jumps on me for that last statement. Programmers are inherently lazy, do you want to chew through a bazillion lines of data when you can get the computer to do the heavy lifting for you?)
I don't see how the rules for damage redirection has much to do with Arena other than lazy programmers. (And before anyone jumps on me for that last statement. Programmers are inherently lazy, do you want to chew through a bazillion lines of data when you can get the computer to do the heavy lifting for you?)
It makes for a much more intuitive, streamlined and (maybe even most importantly from WotC / Hasbro's point of view) easy to spectate online game when you can just drag and drop your damage spells and effects straight on to their actual targets. Just like in Hearthstone! :S
The issue is that old cards, as written, are not compatible with new cards now.
It was part of it. They just have a ton of errata to do, which they've done before through oracle texts and in reprinting.
Well... yes..? The absurdly massive amount of that errata and the enormous inconsistency it creates in old card texts vs. new card texts is why I was spazzing out in the first place.
Anyway, we're kind of running in circles now. They made a stupid decision ten years ago, and now they made an even stupider decision in an attempt to fix it. What's done is done, and we can only wait and see how this thing plays out. I'll certainly be looking forward to the official articles explaining this rules change, the amount of errata, and the reasoning behind them...
This rules change is the one thing that got me thinking maybe they are going to start a new non rotating format. There's just too many cards getting impacted at once and they may make a temporary format that contains the cards they've updated.
A post-Modern format is coming, at some point but I think this change has more to do with Arena than anything else. The shortening of a cards' text makes it alot easier to display on the digital cards.
Oh yea forgot about that basicly a younger modern called frontier or was it sometching else?
So the Planeswalker redirect rule was a nonsense bandaid they needed at the time because:
1. They didn't know Planeswalkers would work.
2. They didn't want to make a big huge change over a brand new cardtype that might not work.
So the idea that during Lorwyn/immediately after they would pull the trigger on a big huge errata to all the things is, well, that could have definitely tanked the player interest in 'walkers out the gate. So it's really more a question of when was the right time to do something stupid and annoying and involves rewriting basically every red card ever played in tourneys. And, well, I know when is a really bad time to do it.
Right after Masters 25. That's a bad time, that's the worst time to do it. It is still a thing that needed doing, but why do it after a really neat Bolt reprint? Well, not the worst worst, but it's pretty bad, they could have pulled this trigger on Ixilan and it'd be bad but it'd also be fine, cause it needed doing. The same way consolidating Legend and Planeswalker rules needed doing, as well as the cleaning up of card text that also is in the Dominaria FAQ.
But just because there isn't a good time for this change, doesn't mean it's a bad change, unless you're one of those people that believes we should still put damage on the stack.
So more hosing of red, the weakest colour in magic and unnecessary protection for walkers that are already too hard to get rid of. All in the name of dumbing things down for Timmy.
Yes, there has been errata before, but never on a scale like this. Previously errata has also mostly concerned single cards, but now it affects a very basic and prominent feature of the game itself: direct damage to players.
Also, previous errata were almost always solely focused on preserving the card's existing functionality as the rules change. This errata will introduce functional changes all over the place.
So more hosing of red, the weakest colour in magic and unnecessary protection for walkers that are already too hard to get rid of. All in the name of dumbing things down for Timmy.
So more hosing of red, the weakest colour in magic and unnecessary protection for walkers that are already too hard to get rid of. All in the name of dumbing things down for Timmy.
It does not hose red.
It is not "for Timmy" it is to simplify the order of operations to damage a Planeswalker to make the process easier for users of MtGO/Arena.
It does help Red avoid player-hexproof effects that used to stop targetted damage spells from hitting planeswalkers, though, so it's a bit of give and take.
*I am under the impression that these "Target player and creatures he/she controls" will not have a planeswalker clause; if you disagree and think these will be reworded to something clunky like "Target player or planeswalker, and each creature that player or planeswalker's controller controls", then pretend I never mentioned these two.
So more hosing of red, the weakest colour in magic and unnecessary protection for walkers that are already too hard to get rid of. All in the name of dumbing things down for Timmy.
Mono red is like tier 1 deck in pretty much every format.
So the idea that during Lorwyn/immediately after they would pull the trigger on a big huge errata to all the things is, well, that could have definitely tanked the player interest in 'walkers out the gate.
Amusingly they did pull the trigger on a big huge errata to all kinds of things during Lorwyn when they introduced a new card type: Tribal.
They recently decided to undo some of that template change. ^^
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I actually really like the idea of Explorers of Ixalan as well, it's just that the product was way overpriced for what it was. Never really liked Archenemy, though, that one's just badly executed. But kudos to them for at least trying!
Considering that Explorers came with 4 Precon decks..it really wasn't that expensive.
So more hosing of red, the weakest colour in magic and unnecessary protection for walkers that are already too hard to get rid of. All in the name of dumbing things down for Timmy.
Mono red is like tier 1 deck in pretty much every format.
Wrong, it's the worst in COMMANDER, multiplayer and casual. All the formats I play. Is there even such a thing as a monored deck in vintage and legacy?
Also don't kid yourselves, the main reason behind this is to remove complexity for noobs.
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I wasn't talking about Chandra, Torch of Defiance, I was talking about the new Chandra, Bold Pyromancer in the new Dominaria set, spoiled in that leaked FAQ. That Chandra has the following plus ability:
+1: Add RR. Chandra, Bold Pyromancer deals 2 damage to target player.
That ability can not target planeswalkers. The original Chandra Nalaar has an ability with the same template ("deal damage to target player"), yet it can target planeswalkers. See what I mean? Besides, Chandra, Torch of Defiance is an example of another templating mess they created, where "damage to each opponent" and "damage to target opponent" can functionally mean several different things depending solely on when the card was printed. Some of those cards can be used to damage planeswalkers, some of them don't.
And it's not just the different Chandras that are affected, it's every card that has previously been printed with the template "deal damage to target player" or "deal damage to target / each opponent" vs. every new card that gets printed with that same template. The card text is the exact same, but the functionality is different. This means you can't really play the game as-is, without resorting to online FAQs and rules clarifications. Yes, there has been errata before, but never on a scale like this. Previously errata has also mostly concerned single cards, but now it affects a very basic and prominent feature of the game itself: direct damage to players. A massive amount of cards no longer do what the card text says. In other words, the game is broken. There's really no discussing that, it's just how it is.
We can, however, discuss the significance of this. Yeah, maybe I'm overreacting a bit and maybe the sky won't fall after all. Maybe the existing player base can get through this with just minor annoyance. But it does raise the entry barrier for new players, and makes the game that much harder to teach. Magic is a bit of a hard sell even as it is, and I can easily see something like this turning a lot of potential players away from the game. There are so many card games out there, and a lot of them are nowadays either self contained, or use the living card game model with no random purchases. Not to mention the variety of modern board games in general.
CCG's are stigmatized enough. They are seen as cynical, pay-to-win cash grabbers especially compared to LCG's. A game where you also need to tell new players they have to check on the internet how a significant amount of cards actually work, and remind them to really check each and every card individually because even the rules text on the cards themselves can not be consistently translated... yeah, it's not hard to imagine people would rather spend their time on some other game that's not constanly demanding money from them, and actually works the way it's written.
I'm speaking from experience, by the way. MTG is one of my favorite games ever, but it's so very hard to get new people interested in it nowadays. ***** like this is one of the reasons why. So hopefully you can understand why I'm frustrated.
I wasn't really advocating the idea of getting rid of paper MTG, and I hope they don't do that anytime soon. But I wouldn't be surprised if the idea hasn't been seriously discussed somewhere in the depths of WotC or, more likely, Hasbro.
edit:
Yeah, that was a really weird thing to say from them. It's almost as if they don't pay any attention at all to what's going on outside of computer games and Magic. Board gaming in general is going through a golden age right now, both in popularity and the amount of games released. There's really no shortage of physical games out there if that's what people want. Or am I just misunderstanding something? :S
It doesn't matter if there are a lot of physical games. Magic is competing with them quite well.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Wasn't it also done so that older cards could interact with planeswalkers?
That's why I said "in hindsight". They had their reasons for doing it, but it's looking like they concluded that those reasons aren't enough to justify continuing with it.
I'm not even sure how you could measure the lifespan of all other games. Most of them are not even trying to do the same thing as Magic, such as maintaining a competitive scene and supporting two big online products, and they are also meant to be one time purchases.
Again, I meant this from the perspective of a potential new player. Someone who just walks into a game store looking for something to play with their friends. What does Magic have to offer them? They canceled the Duel Decks, and those were for two players only anyway, so... Archenemy: Nicol Bolas and Explorers of Ixalan? Do you think those products measure up, in this context, against something like Star Realms, Imperial Settlers, Race for the Galaxy, Lord of the Rings LCG, Pandemic, Great Western Trail, Dominion etc? Especially considering the resale / trading value for Archenemy and Explorers is pretty much zero. I know a lot of people who like to gather around a table to play all kinds of physical games, and from my perspective this is the battle that Magic has already pretty much lost.
Also, the fact that MTG Arena is based on a physical game is not a strength, if that is what the quote meant. Quite the opposite, it's a pretty big disadvantage compared to other, purely digital card games out there.
However, having said all that, I must applaud them for embracing the more casual side of the game by going all in with products like Commander, Planechase, Conspiracy, Unstable, the upcoming Battlebond etc. I actually really like the idea of Explorers of Ixalan as well, it's just that the product was way overpriced for what it was. Never really liked Archenemy, though, that one's just badly executed. But kudos to them for at least trying!
History has proven that MTG is indeed quite robust, and has been able to recover from some pretty dark times. I'm still genuinely worried about the direction WotC is heading, going from one blunder to another for how long now? Of course I hope for the best, but I also wasn't kidding with that mid-90's Sega comparison. :/
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Then don't print that exact card. It is a whole new playing field.
Yes. There was also some trepidation regarding explicitly mentioning a card type that only appears at rare in card text in the beginning. Cards like Dreadbore and Despise were a new course.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
But that was not the issue. The issue is that old cards, as written, are not compatible with new cards now.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A post-Modern format is coming, at some point but I think this change has more to do with Arena than anything else. The shortening of a cards' text makes it alot easier to display on the digital cards.
True. But are we talking about the damage redirection or the template changes? I don't see how the rules for damage redirection has much to do with Arena other than lazy programmers. (And before anyone jumps on me for that last statement. Programmers are inherently lazy, do you want to chew through a bazillion lines of data when you can get the computer to do the heavy lifting for you?)
It makes for a much more intuitive, streamlined and (maybe even most importantly from WotC / Hasbro's point of view) easy to spectate online game when you can just drag and drop your damage spells and effects straight on to their actual targets. Just like in Hearthstone! :S
Well... yes..? The absurdly massive amount of that errata and the enormous inconsistency it creates in old card texts vs. new card texts is why I was spazzing out in the first place.
Anyway, we're kind of running in circles now. They made a stupid decision ten years ago, and now they made an even stupider decision in an attempt to fix it. What's done is done, and we can only wait and see how this thing plays out. I'll certainly be looking forward to the official articles explaining this rules change, the amount of errata, and the reasoning behind them...
Oh yea forgot about that basicly a younger modern called frontier or was it sometching else?
It's khans of Tarkir and all sets forward
1. They didn't know Planeswalkers would work.
2. They didn't want to make a big huge change over a brand new cardtype that might not work.
So the idea that during Lorwyn/immediately after they would pull the trigger on a big huge errata to all the things is, well, that could have definitely tanked the player interest in 'walkers out the gate. So it's really more a question of when was the right time to do something stupid and annoying and involves rewriting basically every red card ever played in tourneys. And, well, I know when is a really bad time to do it.
Right after Masters 25. That's a bad time, that's the worst time to do it. It is still a thing that needed doing, but why do it after a really neat Bolt reprint? Well, not the worst worst, but it's pretty bad, they could have pulled this trigger on Ixilan and it'd be bad but it'd also be fine, cause it needed doing. The same way consolidating Legend and Planeswalker rules needed doing, as well as the cleaning up of card text that also is in the Dominaria FAQ.
But just because there isn't a good time for this change, doesn't mean it's a bad change, unless you're one of those people that believes we should still put damage on the stack.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
It does not hose red.
It is not "for Timmy" it is to simplify the order of operations to damage a Planeswalker to make the process easier for users of MtGO/Arena.
It does help Red avoid player-hexproof effects that used to stop targetted damage spells from hitting planeswalkers, though, so it's a bit of give and take.
*I am under the impression that these "Target player and creatures he/she controls" will not have a planeswalker clause; if you disagree and think these will be reworded to something clunky like "Target player or planeswalker, and each creature that player or planeswalker's controller controls", then pretend I never mentioned these two.
Mono red is like tier 1 deck in pretty much every format.
Amusingly they did pull the trigger on a big huge errata to all kinds of things during Lorwyn when they introduced a new card type: Tribal.
They recently decided to undo some of that template change. ^^
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Considering that Explorers came with 4 Precon decks..it really wasn't that expensive.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Wrong, it's the worst in COMMANDER, multiplayer and casual. All the formats I play. Is there even such a thing as a monored deck in vintage and legacy?
Also don't kid yourselves, the main reason behind this is to remove complexity for noobs.