Same collector number wouldn't include Tarmogoyf (Timberwolf Pack at 190 means Tarmogoyf would have a different collector number than Tree of Perdition).
If the replacement was in fact so constrained that it had to be a card that would have been the same collector number... it would have had to fit between Timberwolf Pack and Utopia Sprawl alphabetically.
The only thing actually ever printed at Mythic that fits that gap... is Titania, Protector of Argoth.
If you consider possible rarity upshift candidates... Tooth and Nail really looks like the only one (I can't imagine they'd have printed and mythicified Troll Ascetic, Traverse the Ulvenwald, or Tireless Tracker... and then switched to Tree in a panic)
It is also possible they had Timmy, Power Gamer in (along with an unhinged and an unstable card) and pulled all three. (What cards could Johnny and Spike have replaced?)
Tracker also fits (reserved list status being realized late for some silly reason).
But I prefer to think that Unyaro Bees was in the slot and MaRo and the council of colors managed to kick it out of the set at the last minute!
(Trail of Mystery and Tribal forcemage both fit the slot and the morph theme of the set, but they also would require upshift and I can’t see why they would be cut)
(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
It is also possible they had Timmy, Power Gamer in (along with an unhinged and an unstable card) and pulled all three. (What cards could Johnny and Spike have replaced?)
Johnny would be between Jalira, Master Polymorphist (uncommon) and Man-o’-War (common) so if silver border is to blame it wasn’t the cycle of ‘gamers that were in.
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(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
Rosewater says that all he knows is that it was a last minute replacement, but like, what could've happened there?
Designer 1: [Green Mythic] can't be printed! It'll kill the draft! You've got five seconds to pick a new one!
Designer 2: Huh?! Ummm...well...
Designer 1: Dammit man, there's no time!
Designer 2: Uhhhh...Tree of Redemption!
Designer 1: Ok. It's done.
Designer 2: Wait, I can think of some oth--
Designer 1: I said it's done.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
What I'd like to know is what was replaced and why...
'buster
Avenger of Zendikar?
Carnage Tyrant?
Craterhoof Behemoth?
Omnath, Locus of Mana?
Thrun, the Last Troll? (that's my bet)
Vengevine?
I would surely have put Kalonian Hydra instead of this *****ty tree
If I recall correctly, Tree was chosen because WotC needed something to slot in without changing the other card numbers.
Not saying your suggestions couldn't happen. It's certainly a possibility that whatever card used to be in this slot was ousted because another card was removed/replaced and WotC had to play musical chairs to maintain the "one from every set" theme or whatever.
Yeah, I went through the possibilities earlier this thread. If they had to preserve numbering it had to be a monogreen Mythic-printable alphabetically between Timberwolf Pack and Utopia Sprawl (so Thrun and Vengevine were juuust out). The likeliest candidate, despite having been printed at rare in an earlier Masters set, was Tooth and Nail. Though that upshift wouldn’t be unprecedented - see Chalice of the Void.
The only actually-printed-as-a-Mythic that fit that gap was Titania, Protector of Argoth.
A mentioned-above possibility could have been Timmy, Power Gamer, if they had decided at the last minute not to print Un cards and needed quick substitutes. But that seems implausible to me most because of how similar TPG is to Elvish Piper, which was already in the set.
If they had to preserve numbering it had to be a monogreen Mythic-printable alphabetically between Timberwolf Pack and Utopia Sprawl (so Thrun and Vengevine were juuust out).
I really want to know what strange series of events could possibly lead to them needing to maintain the collector's number. Unless it was something absurd like needing to make a change after the common sheets were already being printed, it's not like changing the numbering should be that hard (then again, I've worked with the Government enough to have seen cases where stupidly small change takes months to finally be implemented, while sweeping kneejerk changes happen overnight).
And even if it did need to have the same number, I have to wonder why they removed the original card - I can't imagine that Timmy was ever in the set, but Titania and T&N have no obvious reasons to be cut. And even if one of the two was cut (at the very last second, nonetheless), they could have (and almost certainly should have) given us the other option instead of the Tree of Feelsbad.
Is numbering really that difficult to change? Ugh. Anyway, the Tree's presence in this set is emblematic of its problems on the whole. Tree of Redemption is merely the mascot of this train wreck.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
Can someone be kind enough to explain the "collector number" in this context? Obviously it doesn't mean what I think it means.
The cards in every set are numbered in order from 1 to N, where N is the number of cards in the set. This card is 191/249 as printed in the footer test of the card. Generally speaking, all the white cards come first, in alphabetical order, then all the blue cards in alphabetical order, then black then red then green then multicoloured then colourless-artifact then land.
If they had the set ready to go to print but then realized at the last minute ‘Holy crap, we can’t print Tooth and Nail at Mythic there’ - Tooth and Nail would already have been slotted at card #191 (because Timberwolf Pack was 190 and Utopia Sprawl was 192), so their replacement would also have to be a Green card, a mythic, and would have to have a name that alphabetically comes after Timberwolf and before Utopia. Tarmogoyf or Vengevine couldn’t have replaced card 191 (or been the actual original 191 that needed replacing) without messing with the alphabetization or numbering of other cards.
Why pick the tree when they could have just included Tireless Tracker? If they did not want to deal with adding a Clue Token reprint to the set, they could have chosen Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Tireless Tracker would add investigate, Traverse would add Delirium; if they cut Tooth it may have been because they didn’t want a singleton card with Entwine. They really try to avoid adding one-of cards with set-specific keywords. They don’t like adding keyword cards to a set unless hey add multiple cards that use a keyword and call it a draft theme!
And at least Tree was a Mythic in its set, even if monetarily valueless. Up-mythicing as recently-printed rares as TT or Traverse is something I can imagine they specifically try to avoid.
Is numbering really that difficult to change? Ugh. Anyway, the Tree's presence in this set is emblematic of its problems on the whole. Tree of Redemption is merely the mascot of this train wreck.
I'm not sure why it is so hard to change, but it is indeed a huge problem for them, after a certain point, to change collector's number. It has happenned before.
Here was the problem. It was so late in the process that the card numbers had been locked down. That meant that we had to change the names but stay within the parameters of the card names before and after in its color (counting multicolor as a single color). Spirit Lynx's new name had to fall between Shield of Duty and Reason and Standard Bearer. Luckily, the solution, Spectral Lynx, came quite easily.
The big difference here it's that he was talking about a set of new cards. So they could just rename the card to fit the constraints. In a reprint set they have to fill the hole with existing cards.
Tracker also fits (reserved list status being realized late for some silly reason).
But I prefer to think that Unyaro Bees was in the slot and MaRo and the council of colors managed to kick it out of the set at the last minute!
(Trail of Mystery and Tribal forcemage both fit the slot and the morph theme of the set, but they also would require upshift and I can’t see why they would be cut)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B)
T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
Johnny would be between Jalira, Master Polymorphist (uncommon) and Man-o’-War (common) so if silver border is to blame it wasn’t the cycle of ‘gamers that were in.
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B)
T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
Guess what I opened in my first pack.
The stupid thing is so unloved that it even wheeled.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Designer 1: [Green Mythic] can't be printed! It'll kill the draft! You've got five seconds to pick a new one!
Designer 2: Huh?! Ummm...well...
Designer 1: Dammit man, there's no time!
Designer 2: Uhhhh...Tree of Redemption!
Designer 1: Ok. It's done.
Designer 2: Wait, I can think of some oth--
Designer 1: I said it's done.
My 720 Peasant Cube
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
What I'd like to know is what was replaced and why...
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
If I recall correctly, Tree was chosen because WotC needed something to slot in without changing the other card numbers.
Not saying your suggestions couldn't happen. It's certainly a possibility that whatever card used to be in this slot was ousted because another card was removed/replaced and WotC had to play musical chairs to maintain the "one from every set" theme or whatever.
The only actually-printed-as-a-Mythic that fit that gap was Titania, Protector of Argoth.
A mentioned-above possibility could have been Timmy, Power Gamer, if they had decided at the last minute not to print Un cards and needed quick substitutes. But that seems implausible to me most because of how similar TPG is to Elvish Piper, which was already in the set.
I really want to know what strange series of events could possibly lead to them needing to maintain the collector's number. Unless it was something absurd like needing to make a change after the common sheets were already being printed, it's not like changing the numbering should be that hard (then again, I've worked with the Government enough to have seen cases where stupidly small change takes months to finally be implemented, while sweeping kneejerk changes happen overnight).
And even if it did need to have the same number, I have to wonder why they removed the original card - I can't imagine that Timmy was ever in the set, but Titania and T&N have no obvious reasons to be cut. And even if one of the two was cut (at the very last second, nonetheless), they could have (and almost certainly should have) given us the other option instead of the Tree of Feelsbad.
My 720 Peasant Cube
Why pick the tree when they could have just included Tireless Tracker? If they did not want to deal with adding a Clue Token reprint to the set, they could have chosen Traverse the Ulvenwald.
And at least Tree was a Mythic in its set, even if monetarily valueless. Up-mythicing as recently-printed rares as TT or Traverse is something I can imagine they specifically try to avoid.
I'm not sure why it is so hard to change, but it is indeed a huge problem for them, after a certain point, to change collector's number. It has happenned before.
From this article
The big difference here it's that he was talking about a set of new cards. So they could just rename the card to fit the constraints. In a reprint set they have to fill the hole with existing cards.
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill