Both Theft and Industrial Sabotage are pretty damn easy to get criminal convictions in when there is abundance of evidence. The thief even made the bright decision to post the proof on the internet for all to see. They guy, when caught (and he will get caught, the genius posted the leaks to both Imgur and Reddit), will be facing down a very hard sentence. The average jail time in the US for theft is 10 years, industrial sabotage 20. The guy could be facing down 30 years of jail time for 15 minutes of internet fame. He is Fubar'ed, he just doesn't know it yet.
While I certainly hope that this is the result, there are a couple of other factors:
1) What is the jurisdiction? Has WotC moved their card production facilities back from Europe? If not, then jurisdiction is the first question, and what happens if that gets tied up?
2) The sheet itself is of laughably low value in the scale we are talking about. So any theft has to be theft of the Ixalan IP, which... is odd, given that the IP was made public, which generally lowers its value, no?
3) So the charge of Industrial Sabotage and violations of various IP protection laws are the likely charges to stick. But these laws vary considerably from my admittedly limited understanding. Specifically if 1) comes into play.
The issue is not whether they can get a conviction. The issue is the difficulty, the time, and other factors. Worst case scenario is something I don't like thinking about, but it popped into my head. We shall see, and I hope that the legal matter is settled quickly and in WotC's favor.
I think jurisdiction is an important question. Although, I am curious to see how this plays out.
Shouldn't the area these cards are printed at be under video surveillance? I believe work areas like these typically are.
Chances are they have the guy on video unless he found some sneaky way to avoid it.
It is a good question, and likely it is. This is why I think this is a quality control reject and not taken right off the line. The problem, of course, is that if this is a QCR, not only do any number of people have a perfectly legitimate right (even duty) to handle it, it also can fall off the radar much easier. Dumpster diving still works.
And even if it's not an actual QCR, if the perpetrator was a QC person, they could likely 'force' a reject to obtain this, and video surveillance might be able to prove the perpetrator after the fact, but it wouldn't trip any alarms.
Shouldn't the area these cards are printed at be under video surveillance? I believe work areas like these typically are.
Chances are they have the guy on video unless he found some sneaky way to avoid it.
It is a good question, and likely it is. This is why I think this is a quality control reject and not taken right off the line. The problem, of course, is that if this is a QCR, not only do any number of people have a perfectly legitimate right (even duty) to handle it, it also can fall off the radar much easier. Dumpster diving still works.
And even if it's not an actual QCR, if the perpetrator was a QC person, they could likely 'force' a reject to obtain this, and video surveillance might be able to prove the perpetrator after the fact, but it wouldn't trip any alarms.
If it was a dumpster diver. I would be like umm wizards is not handling their waste securely. I wonder if they recycle their rejected prints? Could have been a 3rd party recyclier, and employee doing recycling noticed it. It's just baseless speculation though.
This is why I think this is a quality control reject and not taken right off the line.
I kinda believe this. If you look at the full sheet image, the cards are not printed in the center of the sheet, they are shifted quite a bit to the right and down. So much on the right that the right-side black border is not on the foiled part of the sheet. You can see this shift at the top right corner of the cards, the black clearly extends past the foiling.
If their print process can shift that much, then no wonder they can't do fancy printing tricks. I'm curious now how many bad sheets there are on average.
Both Theft and Industrial Sabotage are pretty damn easy to get criminal convictions in when there is abundance of evidence. The thief even made the bright decision to post the proof on the internet for all to see.
Only if we disbelieve the story that the person who posted the sheet purchased it from someone else and then put it on line for all to see. Otherwise all WOTC have is details of where and when it was printed. And with out the co-operation of the individual who posted it that is all they are going to have. Meaning that unless they are willing to transport there printing away from the facility or get the printing company to disipline an entire shift of people who might not have been working when the sheet actually left the facility there is still a gaping hole in their supply chain waiting for something else to drop out of and for someone else to get hold of and be put online. A hole WOTC will still no nothing about
They guy, when caught (and he will get caught, the genius posted the leaks to both Imgur and Reddit), will be facing down a very hard sentence. The average jail time in the US for theft is 10 years, industrial sabotage 20. The guy could be facing down 30 years of jail time for 15 minutes of internet fame. He is Fubar'ed, he just doesn't know it yet.
Stop dealing in absolutes when you can't know what WOTC is planning or if you do stop releasing information that should not be released into the wild. The bottom line is none of us know what is going to happen and whilst a heavy sentance is possible, going off history and how WOTC have acted in similar matters in the past, namely the New Phyrexia leak and Rancorred elf, it is far more likely that WOTC is going to attempt to take this through the civil courts first with the hope of co-operation and a very tight NDA so they can close the hole, with criminal charges being the last resort.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Kahedron: I do think you have a realistic view of the situation. However, there is one thing that I would like to point out.
If the guy actually posting this purchased it and then posted it on Magic sites like the Magic subreddit, the likelihood that he knew he was purchasing stolen goods is very high, and that is also a crime. A crime which he has flat-out admitted to.
There are legal defenses against this, but nothing strong. 1) "I didn't know this was protected IP?" a) "If you know anything Magic IP, then yes, you did. If you didn't, and had to find the place to post it, then you had the time and ability to determine whether it was protected..." Etc. etc.
If it was a dumpster diver. I would be like umm wizards is not handling their waste securely. I wonder if they recycle their rejected prints? Could have been a 3rd party recyclier, and employee doing recycling noticed it. It's just baseless speculation though.
Yonekura, that is possible. My current theory is that the person responsible was the guy who threw rejects out. In this case, they simply didn't. The issue here is that, if the WotC process was this porous, we'd get this every set. Every single one. We don't. It sounds like this is a fairly isolated case. (IMO, an ethically challenged employee.) Completely proofing a process against ingenious people with low ethical standards is incredibly difficult if people are involved in it. And most processes are.
Frankly, if someone offered to let me buy a rare sheet from an upcoming Magic set, I would buy it, and then sell it back to WotC for a profit and knowledge of who sold it to me. I don't really believe this person if they said they didn't get it themselves but got it from someone else. The R_E event tells us that WotC does not view that as a valid defense and it won't end there.
Kahedron: I do think you have a realistic view of the situation. However, there is one thing that I would like to point out.
If the guy actually posting this purchased it and then posted it on Magic sites like the Magic subreddit, the likelihood that he knew he was purchasing stolen goods is very high, and that is also a crime. A crime which he has flat-out admitted to.
There are legal defenses against this, but nothing strong. 1) "I didn't know this was protected IP?" a) "If you know anything Magic IP, then yes, you did. If you didn't, and had to find the place to post it, then you had the time and ability to determine whether it was protected..." Etc. etc.
If it was a dumpster diver. I would be like umm wizards is not handling their waste securely. I wonder if they recycle their rejected prints? Could have been a 3rd party recyclier, and employee doing recycling noticed it. It's just baseless speculation though.
Yonekura, that is possible. My current theory is that the person responsible was the guy who threw rejects out. In this case, they simply didn't. The issue here is that, if the WotC process was this porous, we'd get this every set. Every single one. We don't. It sounds like this is a fairly isolated case. (IMO, an ethically challenged employee.) Completely proofing a process against ingenious people with low ethical standards is incredibly difficult if people are involved in it. And most processes are.
Frankly, if someone offered to let me buy a rare sheet from an upcoming Magic set, I would buy it, and then sell it back to WotC for a profit and knowledge of who sold it to me. I don't really believe this person if they said they didn't get it themselves but got it from someone else. The R_E event tells us that WotC does not view that as a valid defense and it won't end there.
If it was just found in the dumpster by an non-employee, I am not going to have much pity for wizards. I find the idea semi-humorous, but unlikely.
If it was just found in the dumpster by an non-employee, I am not going to have much pity for wizards. I find the idea semi-humorous, but unlikely.
Ethically challenged employee more likely.
Oh certainly. I guess by 'dumpster diving' I more meant 'someone got this not from taking it straight off the production line/process, but more likely from an ancillary process that they had more control over'. Sorry; I guess I should be more specific.
If it was just found in the dumpster by an non-employee, I am not going to have much pity for wizards. I find the idea semi-humorous, but unlikely.
Ethically challenged employee more likely.
The only problem is identifying which Ethically Challenged employee out of hundreds, if not thousands of employees. With out the co-operation of the individual that they know about they aren't going to be able going to be able to narrow it down with out a lot more data points, which is a lot more sheets stolen and released.
This is why I would be really surprised if the first action WOTC goes to is to bring down the full weight of Federal law if applicable on the person who posted it. If they do not co-operate at the minimum they are going to be suspended from the DCI for life, and if it is in a juristiction that can be reached by WOTC they are going to be hit by a very large civil law suit probably with the understanding that they are going to have criminal charges following up if they don't co-operate.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
If it was just found in the dumpster by an non-employee, I am not going to have much pity for wizards. I find the idea semi-humorous, but unlikely.
Ethically challenged employee more likely.
The only problem is identifying which Ethically Challenged employee out of hundreds, if not thousands of employees. With out the co-operation of the individual that they know about they aren't going to be able going to be able to narrow it down with out a lot more data points, which is a lot more sheets stolen and released.
This is why I would be really surprised if the first action WOTC goes to is to bring down the full weight of Federal law if applicable on the person who posted it. If they do not co-operate at the minimum they are going to be suspended from the DCI for life, and if it is in a juristiction that can be reached by WOTC they are going to be hit by a very large civil law suit probably with the understanding that they are going to have criminal charges following up if they don't co-operate.
There is also the issue of it was an actual reject. Then later, another employee other than one that rejected took advantage of the opportunity. The work place politics might suddenly really suck for that print house.
Although it's kinda funny the pirate set essentially seems to have been pirated.
Information qua information cannot want anything. People may want information to be free. That certainly can be said. But information itself? Honestly, are we to the point where we anthropomorphize everything?
Information qua information cannot want anything. People may want information to be free. That certainly can be said. But information itself? Honestly, are we to the point where we anthropomorphize everything?
I think information just by it's nature has the tendency to leak to some degree or is easy to replicate. Not something it wants for sure although this is getting a bit off topic.
I really hope that's not the real spoiler, despite how authentic it does look. There are a handle of interesting cards, the rest looks like constructed unplayable core set garbage...
Looking forward to seeing the cards in a close up.
Also, honestly I cannot understand some people's reaction, urging not to share etc etc. To be more precise, I would understand this reaction if they were in a way stakeholders in the company (workers etc.) Someone did this, he/she may be punished for this action or not.I suppose the one who did it is an adult who realizes any possible consequences of his/ her actions. I also suppose WotC would have to step up their security in order to prevent any future leaks. As a consumer I am excited to see as many new cards as possible.
Uggg learning the rares of this set before hour of devastation even starts
Well on the bright side atleast we are at long last getting a legendary that supports pirate tribal also a dinosaur legendary and supports dinosaur tribal so either in commander 2017 or not we win either way
Think about all the time and effort they put into spoilers, promotional campaigns, set teases and the like: entire careers are built on spoilers being prevented.
Ultimately, that's a flawed model. Information wants to be free. You need either strong social norms or a police state to keep things secret.
I don't necessarily encourage leaks but I certainly hope nothing bad happens to this leaker. I'll probably contact WotC to this effect, not that that'll do any good.
Why in the world would this guy go through this much risk/trouble only to post some blurry image? Also keeping all the border identifying info in it? If you are going to give us the cards, just give them to us.
Also for people saying we are ruining the game by looking at these...Us knowing the cards ahead of time doesn't change the overall design of their crappy standards.
I urge you not to try to enhance this photo further.
Your pleas for the safety of the game have no effect on me. The company has released a number of awful sets and created a broken standard environment since late 2015. They finally tease what they players have wanted for a while (pirate dinousaur mesoamerican world with no complete gatewatch) and you tell us to ignore the treasure lying in front of me. No way homie,no way. I'm going to decipher to pixels and revel in the fact that it makes Trick Jarrett and MaRo throw a hissyfit.
What is interesting for commander purposes is that the planeswalkers now have a legendary typing.
Also the implication that there can be nonlegendary planeswalkers is quite interesting...
I am wondering if they aren't going to errata older planeswalkers to also be legendary so that you could play Gideon Jura with Gideon of the trials as a way to make up for the complaint of too many Gatewatch before Meta 2.
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I think jurisdiction is an important question. Although, I am curious to see how this plays out.
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It is a good question, and likely it is. This is why I think this is a quality control reject and not taken right off the line. The problem, of course, is that if this is a QCR, not only do any number of people have a perfectly legitimate right (even duty) to handle it, it also can fall off the radar much easier. Dumpster diving still works.
And even if it's not an actual QCR, if the perpetrator was a QC person, they could likely 'force' a reject to obtain this, and video surveillance might be able to prove the perpetrator after the fact, but it wouldn't trip any alarms.
If it was a dumpster diver. I would be like umm wizards is not handling their waste securely. I wonder if they recycle their rejected prints? Could have been a 3rd party recyclier, and employee doing recycling noticed it. It's just baseless speculation though.
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I kinda believe this. If you look at the full sheet image, the cards are not printed in the center of the sheet, they are shifted quite a bit to the right and down. So much on the right that the right-side black border is not on the foiled part of the sheet. You can see this shift at the top right corner of the cards, the black clearly extends past the foiling.
If their print process can shift that much, then no wonder they can't do fancy printing tricks. I'm curious now how many bad sheets there are on average.
Only if we disbelieve the story that the person who posted the sheet purchased it from someone else and then put it on line for all to see. Otherwise all WOTC have is details of where and when it was printed. And with out the co-operation of the individual who posted it that is all they are going to have. Meaning that unless they are willing to transport there printing away from the facility or get the printing company to disipline an entire shift of people who might not have been working when the sheet actually left the facility there is still a gaping hole in their supply chain waiting for something else to drop out of and for someone else to get hold of and be put online. A hole WOTC will still no nothing about
Stop dealing in absolutes when you can't know what WOTC is planning or if you do stop releasing information that should not be released into the wild. The bottom line is none of us know what is going to happen and whilst a heavy sentance is possible, going off history and how WOTC have acted in similar matters in the past, namely the New Phyrexia leak and Rancorred elf, it is far more likely that WOTC is going to attempt to take this through the civil courts first with the hope of co-operation and a very tight NDA so they can close the hole, with criminal charges being the last resort.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
If the guy actually posting this purchased it and then posted it on Magic sites like the Magic subreddit, the likelihood that he knew he was purchasing stolen goods is very high, and that is also a crime. A crime which he has flat-out admitted to.
There are legal defenses against this, but nothing strong. 1) "I didn't know this was protected IP?" a) "If you know anything Magic IP, then yes, you did. If you didn't, and had to find the place to post it, then you had the time and ability to determine whether it was protected..." Etc. etc.
Yonekura, that is possible. My current theory is that the person responsible was the guy who threw rejects out. In this case, they simply didn't. The issue here is that, if the WotC process was this porous, we'd get this every set. Every single one. We don't. It sounds like this is a fairly isolated case. (IMO, an ethically challenged employee.) Completely proofing a process against ingenious people with low ethical standards is incredibly difficult if people are involved in it. And most processes are.
Frankly, if someone offered to let me buy a rare sheet from an upcoming Magic set, I would buy it, and then sell it back to WotC for a profit and knowledge of who sold it to me. I don't really believe this person if they said they didn't get it themselves but got it from someone else. The R_E event tells us that WotC does not view that as a valid defense and it won't end there.
If it was just found in the dumpster by an non-employee, I am not going to have much pity for wizards. I find the idea semi-humorous, but unlikely.
Ethically challenged employee more likely.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
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Oh certainly. I guess by 'dumpster diving' I more meant 'someone got this not from taking it straight off the production line/process, but more likely from an ancillary process that they had more control over'. Sorry; I guess I should be more specific.
Don't relax too easily, brethren, we still have Commander 2017 and Iconic Masters to worry about.
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The only problem is identifying which Ethically Challenged employee out of hundreds, if not thousands of employees. With out the co-operation of the individual that they know about they aren't going to be able going to be able to narrow it down with out a lot more data points, which is a lot more sheets stolen and released.
This is why I would be really surprised if the first action WOTC goes to is to bring down the full weight of Federal law if applicable on the person who posted it. If they do not co-operate at the minimum they are going to be suspended from the DCI for life, and if it is in a juristiction that can be reached by WOTC they are going to be hit by a very large civil law suit probably with the understanding that they are going to have criminal charges following up if they don't co-operate.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
There is also the issue of it was an actual reject. Then later, another employee other than one that rejected took advantage of the opportunity. The work place politics might suddenly really suck for that print house.
Although it's kinda funny the pirate set essentially seems to have been pirated.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Information qua information cannot want anything. People may want information to be free. That certainly can be said. But information itself? Honestly, are we to the point where we anthropomorphize everything?
I think information just by it's nature has the tendency to leak to some degree or is easy to replicate. Not something it wants for sure although this is getting a bit off topic.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Also, honestly I cannot understand some people's reaction, urging not to share etc etc. To be more precise, I would understand this reaction if they were in a way stakeholders in the company (workers etc.) Someone did this, he/she may be punished for this action or not.I suppose the one who did it is an adult who realizes any possible consequences of his/ her actions. I also suppose WotC would have to step up their security in order to prevent any future leaks. As a consumer I am excited to see as many new cards as possible.
Marath, Will of the Wild
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Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
Well on the bright side atleast we are at long last getting a legendary that supports pirate tribal also a dinosaur legendary and supports dinosaur tribal so either in commander 2017 or not we win either way
I enjoy them. This site started for spoilers.
Ultimately, that's a flawed model. Information wants to be free. You need either strong social norms or a police state to keep things secret.
I don't necessarily encourage leaks but I certainly hope nothing bad happens to this leaker. I'll probably contact WotC to this effect, not that that'll do any good.
Also for people saying we are ruining the game by looking at these...Us knowing the cards ahead of time doesn't change the overall design of their crappy standards.
I don't think that 'we are ruining the game by looking at these'... but I do hope WotC plugs this hole very quickly.
Your pleas for the safety of the game have no effect on me. The company has released a number of awful sets and created a broken standard environment since late 2015. They finally tease what they players have wanted for a while (pirate dinousaur mesoamerican world with no complete gatewatch) and you tell us to ignore the treasure lying in front of me. No way homie,no way. I'm going to decipher to pixels and revel in the fact that it makes Trick Jarrett and MaRo throw a hissyfit.
Also the implication that there can be nonlegendary planeswalkers is quite interesting...
I am wondering if they aren't going to errata older planeswalkers to also be legendary so that you could play Gideon Jura with Gideon of the trials as a way to make up for the complaint of too many Gatewatch before Meta 2.