Hopes are high. Regardless of pack price the very reality of reprints drives down single card values.
I still think wizards is overly stingy on reprints... In general it feels like they do a poor job of supporting non standard formats. Products like this are priced as a cash grab not to actually do the things they do (drive down card values). Who cares about protecting card values? Seriously! The number of 30 dollar cards I open that are now worth 1 dollar... Well it's most of my collection.
It's about supporting the formats your players are playing!
Amonkhet looks good but after kaladesh wizards seems so tone def.
Though I think this convo is hilarious, we are definitely off topic so in that spirit, lets try to figure out what high value (i.e. >pack value) reprints could be.
Kind of disappointing honestly... the only two big money ones (Ugin & Kaalia) aren't even actual inconics.
And I know that there are a ton of cards in 2-9 dollar range. But packs are 10!! If this was even a 7 dollar product I would be more lenient in selecting them.
The only thing that even remotely excites or even interests me about this announcement is that they're not doing previews. Going into a prerelease blind would be a ton of fun and I wish I had the willpower to try it myself.
The only thing that even remotely excites or even interests me about this announcement is that they're not doing previews. Going into a prerelease blind would be a ton of fun and I wish I had the willpower to try it myself.
The only thing that even remotely excites or even interests me about this announcement is that they're not doing previews. Going into a prerelease blind would be a ton of fun and I wish I had the willpower to try it myself.
What do you think he was commenting on? Perhaps "but that's what makes the event at HASCON so special. Back when Magic was still young, Prereleases used to be experiences that players entered into without knowing a single card in the set. Previews didn't exist, and Prerelease participants were experiencing the cards for the first time."
The name "Iconic Masters" sounds really hamfisted to me like Wizards didn't actually know what else to call their product, so they called it this.
As amazing as it would be, I'm not expecting reserved list cards from this set. I'm expecting Shivan Dragon and Lightning Bolt. My hopes are low for this set.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
So now when they leak the set list to CFB and SCG in advance they get even more time to manipulate the market before chase cards become public knowledge!
those of you thinking the reserve list will die because of this product are fooling yourselves and you're going to be outraged or disappointed, or both, when it releases and isn't loaded with tabernacles and moxes
neverminding that, even if for some reason the reserve list was abolished with this product, don't expect foil underground seas either. you save reprints like that for products that need a stronger backing when the game is failing, as someone who has played for 24 years... this game is nowhere near failing.
there so many high value cards that are iconic and in need of reprinting without even looking at the reserve list that its not even worth bringing up the reserve list at all. on top of that you don't need to necessarily make it a set oriented around high value reprints to make it desirable either. sure, something iconic thats worth money can help sell packs, but so can iconic low value things that a lot of noncompetitive players want can also do the same. lightning bolt is iconic for instance, or doubling season, or brainstorm, or storm crow. iconic to you might not be the same as iconic to an edh player, or a kitchen table player, or that guy who only buys packs when buying boxes of velveeta at walmart. wotc is pretty in tune with its customers (despite what many people on the internets think) so they'll get this right for the most part - but the majority of people here will ***** they didn't.
as a set, for me right now the most exciting part is no previews. one of the things that has spoiled prereleases for me is that the format gets solved ahead of time. those that keep up with discussion and spoilers they show up and know whats good and whats not, what strategies work and which don't. it takes all the fun out of it to try out new cards in a casual setting and then get paired up against some tryhard that wants to 5-0 rather than have a good time. to gete rushed through the game because they know what everything does already. not keeping up with things isn't an option if everyone else is. sure, a good player can figure these things out fairly easily, but some of the appeal is that its new - not that its been discussed for 3 weeks before the prerelease. so... i'm excited for that aspect of it alone.
that said, msrp has to be less than $10 a pack without a fully spoiled card list in order for me to take the risk or i'll probably just feel ripped off.
I don't like speculating, but Mana Drain and Rishidan Port are in need of reprints and this could be the place to put them. I really wouldn't mind if they just jammed even more powerful reprints into a set than they ever have before: Take Modern Masters 2017 design philosophy to an Eternal set and I'm sure we'll get something awesome. For now, we wait and see!
My understanding is that it is Hasbro and not WotC that is forcing the reserved list to continue. They don't want to deal with the legal issues if the Reserved List is scrapped. Even if, as others have said, they would win a court case brought by investors/card speculators, it's money wasted and bad PR for them.
They would not win the court case. And no CEO is going to sign off on a plan to intentionally get their company sued for 10s of millions, while answering to angry shareholders who want to know who agreed to such an idiotic scheme.
I'm really not a fan of having multiple masters sets in the same year. I thought once every other year was a nice response to what needed reprinted, but two in one year? Especially right around the time they're going to be trying to get other products sold, like the commander decks? Oversaturation of the market is a thing.
I'm really not a fan of having multiple masters sets in the same year. I thought once every other year was a nice response to what needed reprinted, but two in one year? Especially right around the time they're going to be trying to get other products sold, like the commander decks? Oversaturation of the market is a thing.
Masters sets likely make Hasbro a lot of money, require relatively little effort to create, and they also aren't really solving the problem of affordability. At best they're slowing the bleeding. So what do you do? Lower the price of packs and print more product? Put more meaningful reprints in unlimited print run sets?
No, stupid! Release more Masters sets more frequently!
Oversaturation killed Conspiracy 2. At least if Iconic Masters flops it's just a reprint set.
The only thing that even remotely excites or even interests me about this announcement is that they're not doing previews. Going into a prerelease blind would be a ton of fun and I wish I had the willpower to try it myself.
What do you think he was commenting on? Perhaps "but that's what makes the event at HASCON so special. Back when Magic was still young, Prereleases used to be experiences that players entered into without knowing a single card in the set. Previews didn't exist, and Prerelease participants were experiencing the cards for the first time."
Note that HASCON is not the prerelease and it takes place 2 months before the release of Iconic Masters. Also, not too many people attend HASCON.
lesson learnt from modern masters 2017 though, buy singles you want opening weekend, they'll creep back up (especially on the key eternal playables). Thats my plan with this set. Only way I'm opening packs is if it's for our LGS.
If the msrp wasn't $10 per pack, I would have wanted to see a set with:
Elder dragons, old crappy cards from legends, Arabian nights, etc....
The washed out look of revised and old sets using the old frame.
I'm probable in the minority though, but how cool would it be to be able to draft the old sets, but fixing some issues like color balance, etc.....
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pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
My understanding is that it is Hasbro and not WotC that is forcing the reserved list to continue. They don't want to deal with the legal issues if the Reserved List is scrapped. Even if, as others have said, they would win a court case brought by investors/card speculators, it's money wasted and bad PR for them.
They would not win the court case. And no CEO is going to sign off on a plan to intentionally get their company sued for 10s of millions, while answering to angry shareholders who want to know who agreed to such an idiotic scheme.
You sure know a lot of specifics about something that no one seems to know any specifics about
I just don't know what is going on at WotC. They legitimately seem to be oversaturating the market for magic cards. I think the response to the masters sets has been solid, generally, but why on earth would you want to push two sets of them each year?
Also, having a new name suggests (to me) that we are looking at something with a different purpose than either Eternal or Modern masters. Eternal masters is a good place for legacy, commander, and cube reprints, while modern masters obviously serves that format. Where does this fall in? Moreover, if the draw of masters sets is the chance to open old, valuable cards, it begs the question of what format are they drawing cards from this time.
If it really is the things that they think are most iconic to MTG (as the name suggests) than there are really going to be a lot of very cheap cards in it. If it really is a reserve list killer (not holding my breath, but still), than maybe MTG is in a worse place than I thought. At this point, killing the reserve list has to be viewed as the "nuclear option" for magic. It will certainly drive sales, but it also signals they may have run out of ideas to do so in other ways (note: I'm not saying it would be bad for the game, just that it isn't a great signal of the game's health).
On the other hand, it may just be an anniversary gimmick that stuffs a high value set with lots of old school cards and some higher value stuff thrown in for good measure. That would suggest less of a long-term strategy with the set (such as tailoring to a format or market) and it just being a kind of one-off.
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Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Okay, now that the announcement has been made, I suppose I can throw my "Magic Masters Consolidated Core Set" idea out the window - this looks set to be a one-off special edition of the Masters series (comeon, by now the entire series isn't "special" anymore seriously, just a regular higher-end product).
I'm not having high hopes for this - let's just say I'm sort of expecting Shivan Dragon (at rare) and that isn't doing too good on my expectations for the set.
If they really wanted to commemorate iconic, they needed to replace one more common slot for a AB(UR)-Shifted Slot. I don't want Shivan Dragon in my rare (nor uncommon actually) slot, I want a reprint of it in AB(UR) frames (and wording) in a separate slot (it's fine losing a common, they have pack space issues and the land is already a foil slot). They did it once in Time Spiral (in Standard no less), I don't see why that's difficult for a commemorative set.
Then again they didn't say anything else, so it's still possible, although I'm not holding my hopes for it.
My understanding is that it is Hasbro and not WotC that is forcing the reserved list to continue. They don't want to deal with the legal issues if the Reserved List is scrapped. Even if, as others have said, they would win a court case brought by investors/card speculators, it's money wasted and bad PR for them.
They would not win the court case. And no CEO is going to sign off on a plan to intentionally get their company sued for 10s of millions, while answering to angry shareholders who want to know who agreed to such an idiotic scheme.
You sure know a lot of specifics about something that no one seems to know any specifics about
That's because this is how publicly-traded corporations work.
True, no one knows the EXACT WORDING of the Reserved List legal agreement or whatnot, but it's not like it was drafted and executed in an absolute vacuum, using no existing legal practices and norms.
The fact that Wizards has abided by the Reserved List for this long effectively proves that it is a legally binding document. And intentionally breaching a legally valid contract has serious repercussions -- more serious than negligently doing so. It's highly likely, in fact, that the Reserved List agreement contains a disgorgement provision wherein Wizards must pay as damages all moneies earned from breaching the contract -- that is, all sales from and product that reprints Reserve Listed cards.
Short of a complete renegotiation of the agreement, or some kind of "buy out" where Wizards simply pays off the collectors in a lump sum to agree to release Wizards from its obligations under the agreement, the Reserved List is here for good. Wizards won't intentionally breach it just to make a buck, because you can bet that any court without its head up its a** is going to order Wizards to pay out every last cent that it profited from reprinting any Reserve List cards.
If people want Reserve List cards, they should just buy them now before their prices go up any more.
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I still think wizards is overly stingy on reprints... In general it feels like they do a poor job of supporting non standard formats. Products like this are priced as a cash grab not to actually do the things they do (drive down card values). Who cares about protecting card values? Seriously! The number of 30 dollar cards I open that are now worth 1 dollar... Well it's most of my collection.
It's about supporting the formats your players are playing!
Amonkhet looks good but after kaladesh wizards seems so tone def.
Angels:
Atraxa, Praetor's Voice
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Archangel of Thune
Sigarda, Host of Herons (Borderline)
Sphinx:
Consecrated Sphinx
Demon:
Demonic Tutor (Cheating but literally can't think of one; maybe something from Kamigawa)
Dragons:
Ugin, The Spirit Dragon (Minor cheat, in the tribe that needs it the least, no less)
Zodiac Dragon
Skithiryx, The Blight Dragon
Dragon Broodmother(Borderline)
Kokusho, The Evening Star
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
(Probably some I missed but a lottt to go through)
Hydra:
Khalni Hydra
Progenitus
(Though there ARE a lot in that 5-8 dollar range)
Other associated crap:
Kaalia of the Vast
Sarkhan Vol (Borderline)
Kind of disappointing honestly... the only two big money ones (Ugin & Kaalia) aren't even actual inconics.
And I know that there are a ton of cards in 2-9 dollar range. But packs are 10!! If this was even a 7 dollar product I would be more lenient in selecting them.
--
Those are just creatures though, they also said "alongside magic's most iconic spells." Or something.
Sorry, I'm just very burnt on these sets, because my pack luck is so poor and I get Call the Skybreaker in 3 out of 4 packs.
Maybe you missed this comment? http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/775011-iconic-masters-november-2017?comment=46
Come one guys, we heard about it yesterday
What do you think he was commenting on? Perhaps "but that's what makes the event at HASCON so special. Back when Magic was still young, Prereleases used to be experiences that players entered into without knowing a single card in the set. Previews didn't exist, and Prerelease participants were experiencing the cards for the first time."
As amazing as it would be, I'm not expecting reserved list cards from this set. I'm expecting Shivan Dragon and Lightning Bolt. My hopes are low for this set.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
(Except for the power 9)
neverminding that, even if for some reason the reserve list was abolished with this product, don't expect foil underground seas either. you save reprints like that for products that need a stronger backing when the game is failing, as someone who has played for 24 years... this game is nowhere near failing.
there so many high value cards that are iconic and in need of reprinting without even looking at the reserve list that its not even worth bringing up the reserve list at all. on top of that you don't need to necessarily make it a set oriented around high value reprints to make it desirable either. sure, something iconic thats worth money can help sell packs, but so can iconic low value things that a lot of noncompetitive players want can also do the same. lightning bolt is iconic for instance, or doubling season, or brainstorm, or storm crow. iconic to you might not be the same as iconic to an edh player, or a kitchen table player, or that guy who only buys packs when buying boxes of velveeta at walmart. wotc is pretty in tune with its customers (despite what many people on the internets think) so they'll get this right for the most part - but the majority of people here will ***** they didn't.
as a set, for me right now the most exciting part is no previews. one of the things that has spoiled prereleases for me is that the format gets solved ahead of time. those that keep up with discussion and spoilers they show up and know whats good and whats not, what strategies work and which don't. it takes all the fun out of it to try out new cards in a casual setting and then get paired up against some tryhard that wants to 5-0 rather than have a good time. to gete rushed through the game because they know what everything does already. not keeping up with things isn't an option if everyone else is. sure, a good player can figure these things out fairly easily, but some of the appeal is that its new - not that its been discussed for 3 weeks before the prerelease. so... i'm excited for that aspect of it alone.
that said, msrp has to be less than $10 a pack without a fully spoiled card list in order for me to take the risk or i'll probably just feel ripped off.
Counterspell
Lord of Atlantis
Counterbalance
Sol Ring
Sensei's Divining Top
Sunder
Imperial Seal
Riding the Dilu Horse
Imperial recruiter
Mind Twist (hoping this gets a better reprinting than the lowly invocation)
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Dark Ritual
Ashnod's Altar
EDIT:
Crimson Hellkite
Boomerang
Entomb
Demonic Tutor
Ensnaring Bridge
Medallion cycle
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
They would not win the court case. And no CEO is going to sign off on a plan to intentionally get their company sued for 10s of millions, while answering to angry shareholders who want to know who agreed to such an idiotic scheme.
Masters sets likely make Hasbro a lot of money, require relatively little effort to create, and they also aren't really solving the problem of affordability. At best they're slowing the bleeding. So what do you do? Lower the price of packs and print more product? Put more meaningful reprints in unlimited print run sets?
No, stupid! Release more Masters sets more frequently!
Oversaturation killed Conspiracy 2. At least if Iconic Masters flops it's just a reprint set.
Note that HASCON is not the prerelease and it takes place 2 months before the release of Iconic Masters. Also, not too many people attend HASCON.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Elder dragons, old crappy cards from legends, Arabian nights, etc....
The washed out look of revised and old sets using the old frame.
I'm probable in the minority though, but how cool would it be to be able to draft the old sets, but fixing some issues like color balance, etc.....
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
You sure know a lot of specifics about something that no one seems to know any specifics about
Also, having a new name suggests (to me) that we are looking at something with a different purpose than either Eternal or Modern masters. Eternal masters is a good place for legacy, commander, and cube reprints, while modern masters obviously serves that format. Where does this fall in? Moreover, if the draw of masters sets is the chance to open old, valuable cards, it begs the question of what format are they drawing cards from this time.
If it really is the things that they think are most iconic to MTG (as the name suggests) than there are really going to be a lot of very cheap cards in it. If it really is a reserve list killer (not holding my breath, but still), than maybe MTG is in a worse place than I thought. At this point, killing the reserve list has to be viewed as the "nuclear option" for magic. It will certainly drive sales, but it also signals they may have run out of ideas to do so in other ways (note: I'm not saying it would be bad for the game, just that it isn't a great signal of the game's health).
On the other hand, it may just be an anniversary gimmick that stuffs a high value set with lots of old school cards and some higher value stuff thrown in for good measure. That would suggest less of a long-term strategy with the set (such as tailoring to a format or market) and it just being a kind of one-off.
I'm not having high hopes for this - let's just say I'm sort of expecting Shivan Dragon (at rare) and that isn't doing too good on my expectations for the set.
If they really wanted to commemorate iconic, they needed to replace one more common slot for a AB(UR)-Shifted Slot. I don't want Shivan Dragon in my rare (nor uncommon actually) slot, I want a reprint of it in AB(UR) frames (and wording) in a separate slot (it's fine losing a common, they have pack space issues and the land is already a foil slot). They did it once in Time Spiral (in Standard no less), I don't see why that's difficult for a commemorative set.
Then again they didn't say anything else, so it's still possible, although I'm not holding my hopes for it.
That's because this is how publicly-traded corporations work.
True, no one knows the EXACT WORDING of the Reserved List legal agreement or whatnot, but it's not like it was drafted and executed in an absolute vacuum, using no existing legal practices and norms.
The fact that Wizards has abided by the Reserved List for this long effectively proves that it is a legally binding document. And intentionally breaching a legally valid contract has serious repercussions -- more serious than negligently doing so. It's highly likely, in fact, that the Reserved List agreement contains a disgorgement provision wherein Wizards must pay as damages all moneies earned from breaching the contract -- that is, all sales from and product that reprints Reserve Listed cards.
Short of a complete renegotiation of the agreement, or some kind of "buy out" where Wizards simply pays off the collectors in a lump sum to agree to release Wizards from its obligations under the agreement, the Reserved List is here for good. Wizards won't intentionally breach it just to make a buck, because you can bet that any court without its head up its a** is going to order Wizards to pay out every last cent that it profited from reprinting any Reserve List cards.
If people want Reserve List cards, they should just buy them now before their prices go up any more.