Why can't we have a strong counterspell for the format?
Just out of curiosity, then, what are your criteria for being a strong counterspell? The question is non-format-specific but I think most of us can agree that a strong counterspell in Standard will look differently than a strong counterspell in Modern.
Why can't we have a strong counterspell for the format?
Just out of curiosity, then, what are your criteria for being a strong counterspell? The question is non-format-specific but I think most of us can agree that a strong counterspell in Standard will look differently than a strong counterspell in Modern.
Something that is essentially a 2-mana hard-counterspell for a large portion of the format or something like Mana Leak that has extra benefits. Here are some examples of that.
1U
Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.
1U
Instant
Counter target spell unless its control pays 4.
UU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2.
Scry 2
UU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2.
Kicker 1R: This card deals 2 damage to target creature or player
WU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its control pays 3
You gain 3 life
X
Instant
Spend only blue mana on X.
This card is blue.
Counter target spell with converted mana cost X or less.
This card is fine, and could see play in standard if there is a blue control deck that needs early interaction.
If your opponent plays around it, the card did its job. Just pay one mana and cycle EOT. Now your opponent is holding a card they could have played on curve, and you conveniently traded your deterrent for an extra draw.
Those of you calling this unplayable are just bad – although it may not see play. Those of you who are upset every time a counterspell that isn't good enough for Modern gets printed should probably lower your expectations.
I wonder, then, why more Standard players aren't using Horribly Awry? It costs 1U and counters then exiles creature spells with a cmc <= 4, a condition which hits at least 85% of the creatures in the two largest archetypes in the format right now. *shrug* A rhetorical question only which does not actually require a response.
Why are we talking about Modern? These cards are for Standard.
ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:
Standard
Limited
Sealed
Block
Duel Commander
Multiplayer Commander
Pauper
Pauper Highlander
Pauper Commander
Peasant
Peasant Highlander
Peasant Commander
Horde
Tiny Leader
Frontier
Modern
Legacy
Vintage
Two-Headed Giant
Emperor
Cube
Casual
Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy or the Commander products which both also have cards for other formats.
Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.
Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?
Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.
Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.
Why are we talking about Modern? These cards are for Standard.
ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:
Standard
Limited
Sealed
Block
Duel Commander
Multiplayer Commander
Pauper
Pauper Highlander
Pauper Commander
Peasant
Peasant Highlander
Peasant Commander
Horde
Tiny Leader
Frontier
Modern
Legacy
Vintage
Two-Headed Giant
Emperor
Cube
Casual
Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy.
Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.
Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?
Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.
Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.
I wouldn't say that this is unplayable in Standard. However, I think that that is the problem. This really shouldn't be a good card in Standard because it is so weak, but since there are no better options in Standard, it probably will be.
More like a better Stymied Hopes. This is good vs the fastest decks and doesn't become dead once you can start playing your top-end that outclasses whatever they're doing.
It's not going to be good vs all matchups, which is fine. Different match-ups require different answers.
I don't understand the outrage this isn't something else. It's not like this is the only card in standard or even the only new card being released.
Why are we talking about Modern? These cards are for Standard.
ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:
Standard
Limited
Sealed
Block
Duel Commander
Multiplayer Commander
Pauper
Pauper Highlander
Pauper Commander
Peasant
Peasant Highlander
Peasant Commander
Horde
Tiny Leader
Frontier
Modern
Legacy
Vintage
Two-Headed Giant
Emperor
Cube
Casual
Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy or the Commander products which both also have cards for other formats.
Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.
Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?
Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.
Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.
This is just wrong. They frequently design cards for specific formats, including Standard. They also rarely test newer cards in older formats. They test some for Modern, and have printed cards specifically for Modern, but if it wasn't designed with Modern in mind, they do very little testing for it. Nearly all of their time is spent on Standard and Limited, and for other formats, it is largely based on theory crafting.
More like a better Stymied Hopes. This is good vs the fastest decks and doesn't become dead once you can start playing your top-end that outclasses whatever they're doing.
It's not going to be good vs all matchups, which is fine. Different match-ups require different answers.
I don't understand the outrage this isn't something else. It's not like this is the only card in standard or even the only new card being released.
The rage isn't because WOTC printed another unplayable counterspell - if only I had $1 for every time they've done that. It's more that we're disappointed that WOTC missed the perfect opportunity to print another playable counterspell in standard that would have been (1) totally fine in standard, and (2) playable in modern. We're disappointed that we didn't get a playable cycling counterspell for the same reason we were disappointed that there was no revolt counterspell.
Fatal push is the exemplar for an interactive card that is good enough in modern, and not too good in standard. It's like how Tarmogoyf is so good in constructed, and so garbage in limited (admittedly not as extreme). That is the kind of solution that they need to come up with to get good counterspells into modern (since they refuse to print counterspells that will be powerful in standard. I disagree with this, but fine), and they keep missing the obivous chances to do this.
Edit: Now that I'm thinking about it some more, Silumgar's Scorn is kinda hilarious. They managed to print a card that is basically counterspell in standard, but completely useless in modern. So I guess I have no idea what R&D is thinking
Why are we talking about Modern? These cards are for Standard.
ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:
Standard
Limited
Sealed
Block
Duel Commander
Multiplayer Commander
Pauper
Pauper Highlander
Pauper Commander
Peasant
Peasant Highlander
Peasant Commander
Horde
Tiny Leader
Frontier
Modern
Legacy
Vintage
Two-Headed Giant
Emperor
Cube
Casual
Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy or the Commander products which both also have cards for other formats.
Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.
Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?
Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.
Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.
I just came by to say everything you listed below sealed (which is a type of limited play so that really doesn't count as another bullet point anyway and a bunch of those are just variations on commander and pauper but I digress) other than vintage, legacy and modern are casual formats so they explicitly do not test for those because, frankly, testing for casual formats is straight up silly. Also, we know that they don't test cards for legacy or vintage because MaRo has said explicitly that they don't. Unexplicitly, that's because they straight up don't care about those formats. The only formats they really test for are standard*, limited* and modern. Asterisks for the ones they really pay attention to.
Edit: Also what in the sam hill is Emperor or Horde?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
Why are we talking about Modern? These cards are for Standard.
ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:
Standard
Limited
Sealed
Block
Duel Commander
Multiplayer Commander
Pauper
Pauper Highlander
Pauper Commander
Peasant
Peasant Highlander
Peasant Commander
Horde
Tiny Leader
Frontier
Modern
Legacy
Vintage
Two-Headed Giant
Emperor
Cube
Casual
Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy or the Commander products which both also have cards for other formats.
Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.
Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?
Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.
Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.
This is just wrong. They frequently design cards for specific formats, including Standard. They also rarely test newer cards in older formats. They test some for Modern, and have printed cards specifically for Modern, but if it wasn't designed with Modern in mind, they do very little testing for it. Nearly all of their time is spent on Standard and Limited, and for other formats, it is largely based on theory crafting.
Yeah they design for specific formats, But everything is ANALYZED for every possible format. Its still laughable within this very thread that statements of "Modern does not matter to the discussion" when in fact it does.
Example: Even if everything was designed for limited only, if even one card fit into a competitive Commander, Legacy, Modern or Vintage deck then it becomes that much more valuable and possibly ban-worthy.
Remember True-Name Nemesis? That card that was designed for Commander and that ended up being a hit in Legacy Fish to such an extent that you couldn't find the UBR deck anywhere that didn't already have the True-Name Nemesis gutted from it?
Dack Fayden became a huge hit in Vintage and he came from the original Conspiracy set. A set that was designed for limited.
Like remember when they printed Mental Misstep and Gitaxian Probe? Oh boy those two were so good in Modern that they both eventually had to be banned because of how they warped the format. Those two cards came from a set that was designed specifically for Standard and Limited. Same with Treasure Cruise for that matter.
The excuse that "Its for X format only, Y format doesn't matter" is such a wrong statement. As I've shown with just a few examples that it doesn't matter if only one format was considered if the rippling effect it has on other formats gives cause for concern and consideration for it.
They don't really test for Modern, either. Remember the Eldrazi Winter?
Sometimes it doesn't seem like they test for Standard either like with cards such as Smuggler's Copter, Walking Ballista, Aetherworks Marvel and quite a few more. Yet stuff like this counterspell are considered also fine by that same token.
I wonder, then, why more Standard players aren't using Horribly Awry? It costs 1U and counters then exiles creature spells with a cmc <= 4, a condition which hits at least 85% of the creatures in the two largest archetypes in the format right now. *shrug* A rhetorical question only which does not actually require a response.
I realize you said it was rhetorical, but I remember when it was spoiled and a few people I knew were super excited, until they realized that it only hit creatures. Essentially, it is very often a conditional essence scatter with an upside that is of a conditional value. Essence Scatter is playable, sometimes, but certainly unimpressive--horribly awry is often worse.
Also, for what it is worth, some of valanarch's examples are above what one should expect them to print. Things like mana leak with a big upside would be particularly oppressive in standard. As a result, modern's counterspell ambitions will continue to be stymied.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Why are we talking about Modern? These cards are for Standard.
ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:
Standard
Limited
Sealed
Block
Duel Commander
Multiplayer Commander
Pauper
Pauper Highlander
Pauper Commander
Peasant
Peasant Highlander
Peasant Commander
Horde
Tiny Leader
Frontier
Modern
Legacy
Vintage
Two-Headed Giant
Emperor
Cube
Casual
Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy or the Commander products which both also have cards for other formats.
Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.
Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?
Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.
Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.
This is just wrong. They frequently design cards for specific formats, including Standard. They also rarely test newer cards in older formats. They test some for Modern, and have printed cards specifically for Modern, but if it wasn't designed with Modern in mind, they do very little testing for it. Nearly all of their time is spent on Standard and Limited, and for other formats, it is largely based on theory crafting.
Yeah they design for specific formats, But everything is ANALYZED for every possible format. Its still laughable within this very thread that statements of "Modern does not matter to the discussion" when in fact it does.
Example: Even if everything was designed for limited only, if even one card fit into a competitive Commander, Legacy, Modern or Vintage deck then it becomes that much more valuable and possibly ban-worthy.
Remember True-Name Nemesis? That card that was designed for Commander and that ended up being a hit in Legacy Fish to such an extent that you couldn't find the UBR deck anywhere that didn't already have the True-Name Nemesis gutted from it?
Dack Fayden became a huge hit in Vintage and he came from the original Conspiracy set. A set that was designed for limited.
Like remember when they printed Mental Misstep and Gitaxian Probe? Oh boy those two were so good in Modern that they both eventually had to be banned because of how they warped the format. Those two cards came from a set that was designed specifically for Standard and Limited. Same with Treasure Cruise for that matter.
The excuse that "Its for X format only, Y format doesn't matter" is such a wrong statement. As I've shown with just a few examples that it doesn't matter if only one format was considered if the rippling effect it has on other formats gives cause for concern and consideration for it.
True-Name was designed for Legacy.
I stopped reading after that because if you didn't know that, nothing else you said mattered.
Are all you guys arguing over this BAD counterspell aware that WotC has publicly (repeatedly) said they've made mistakes nerfing counters and answers and that they are going to 'apply those lessons learned'? That when they said this (and brought out the BANSTICK) that this set was already in the can?
I'm pretty sure the next set is way far along but who knows maybe they'll get Hero's Downfall into it before printing.
I've had ZERO expectation of good counters or removal and so far my expectation is being met.
They were pandering to what they thought the community wanted (don't counter my creature or kill it) and this is the standard that we get.
No really viable control or aggro (vehicles is midrange). Vehicles is laughingly only kept slightly in check by a complete ACCIDENT with dirty kitty.
The colorwheel and balance are completely broken and the only way they will get it back is print answers that are at least as good as their threats.
So either the creatures get worse (which I hope they do), or the answers have to be just as multifaceted.
Balance will be Midrange - Control - Aggro all viable and keeping each other in check.
Why can't we have a strong counterspell for the format?
Just out of curiosity, then, what are your criteria for being a strong counterspell? The question is non-format-specific but I think most of us can agree that a strong counterspell in Standard will look differently than a strong counterspell in Modern.
Im guessing strong by atleast mana leak or worse miscalculation I dont get why the have to peg counters at 3 mana instead of atleast 1U, heck just put back counterspell itself. Its not like we are asking for force of will.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
The best thing about cards like this is if in game 1 you get them with a card like this they play around it in game 2 and game 3 in nearly every case. Nothing like side-boarding these out for other cards after your opponent is likely to be so damn careful about having one untapped land for every spell they cast in the subsequent games.
This is definitely a tad overpriced, but i do like that it is far easier to cycle in most cases than Miscalculation.
I wonder, then, why more Standard players aren't using Horribly Awry? It costs 1U and counters then exiles creature spells with a cmc <= 4, a condition which hits at least 85% of the creatures in the two largest archetypes in the format right now. *shrug* A rhetorical question only which does not actually require a response.
Yep I love Horribly Awry and have often played it in my UB control decks.
Why are we talking about Modern? These cards are for Standard.
ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:
Standard
Limited
Sealed
Block
Duel Commander
Multiplayer Commander
Pauper
Pauper Highlander
Pauper Commander
Peasant
Peasant Highlander
Peasant Commander
Horde
Tiny Leader
Frontier
Modern
Legacy
Vintage
Two-Headed Giant
Emperor
Cube
Casual
Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy or the Commander products which both also have cards for other formats.
Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.
Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?
Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.
Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.
This is just wrong. They frequently design cards for specific formats, including Standard. They also rarely test newer cards in older formats. They test some for Modern, and have printed cards specifically for Modern, but if it wasn't designed with Modern in mind, they do very little testing for it. Nearly all of their time is spent on Standard and Limited, and for other formats, it is largely based on theory crafting.
Yeah they design for specific formats, But everything is ANALYZED for every possible format. Its still laughable within this very thread that statements of "Modern does not matter to the discussion" when in fact it does.
Example: Even if everything was designed for limited only, if even one card fit into a competitive Commander, Legacy, Modern or Vintage deck then it becomes that much more valuable and possibly ban-worthy.
Remember True-Name Nemesis? That card that was designed for Commander and that ended up being a hit in Legacy Fish to such an extent that you couldn't find the UBR deck anywhere that didn't already have the True-Name Nemesis gutted from it?
Dack Fayden became a huge hit in Vintage and he came from the original Conspiracy set. A set that was designed for limited.
Like remember when they printed Mental Misstep and Gitaxian Probe? Oh boy those two were so good in Modern that they both eventually had to be banned because of how they warped the format. Those two cards came from a set that was designed specifically for Standard and Limited. Same with Treasure Cruise for that matter.
The excuse that "Its for X format only, Y format doesn't matter" is such a wrong statement. As I've shown with just a few examples that it doesn't matter if only one format was considered if the rippling effect it has on other formats gives cause for concern and consideration for it.
True-Name was designed for Legacy.
I stopped reading after that because if you didn't know that, nothing else you said mattered.
You are flat out wrong. True-Name Nemesis was designed for Commander. HOWEVER the card was very popular in Legacy which led to buyouts of the card and of the deck that contained said card. You would know that if you paid even a modicum of attention. Scavenging Ooze was also not designed for other formats. But guess what? It sees play in other formats. I would stop reading your comments as well if you lack this much knowledge of the game and certain trends.
Judging this card based on it's merits in Modern alone is completely missing the point. Of course it's bad (I think?) in Modern, I'm mainly interested in it's applications in Standard. Blue is currently doing fine in Modern but really needs the push in Standard. This alone probably won't cut it but it is an interesting card, much more so then the fifty shades of Cancel we've been getting for the past decade or so.
How is blue doing fine in Modern but is weak in Standard? In Standard, Copycat (which plays a decent amount of blue) is arguably the best deck and 8 of the top 50 cards (including 4 of the top 10) are blue. In Modern, the only tier 1 blue decks (as of the last metagame breakdown on Modern Nexus) are Affinity and Bant Eldrazi, neither of which are really blue decks, and only 3 of the top 50 (and 1 of the top 10) cards are blue.
Perhaps I should reiterate. When I say "blue" I mostly mean "draw-go-control". You just don't have that prominent blue control decks in Standard. Temur tower is kind of there but just out of reach. There are, however, reasonable blue control decks in Modern (take the latest Modern GP as an example), at least in my experience.
While we are on the subject of Top cards how many cards in the Top 50 would you consider to be enough evidence that a color isn't sidelined in the format? 15%? More?
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"MISCALCULATION AND DESERT ARE TOO STRONK FOR STANDARD REEEEEEEEEE!"
WotC, while making a 4 CC 3/6 indestructible double striker that makes more dudes.
Just out of curiosity, then, what are your criteria for being a strong counterspell? The question is non-format-specific but I think most of us can agree that a strong counterspell in Standard will look differently than a strong counterspell in Modern.
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Something that is essentially a 2-mana hard-counterspell for a large portion of the format or something like Mana Leak that has extra benefits. Here are some examples of that.
1U
Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.
1U
Instant
Counter target spell unless its control pays 4.
UU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2.
Scry 2
UU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2.
Kicker 1R: This card deals 2 damage to target creature or player
WU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its control pays 3
You gain 3 life
X
Instant
Spend only blue mana on X.
This card is blue.
Counter target spell with converted mana cost X or less.
Miscalculation
Prohibit
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If your opponent plays around it, the card did its job. Just pay one mana and cycle EOT. Now your opponent is holding a card they could have played on curve, and you conveniently traded your deterrent for an extra draw.
Those of you calling this unplayable are just bad – although it may not see play. Those of you who are upset every time a counterspell that isn't good enough for Modern gets printed should probably lower your expectations.
I wonder, then, why more Standard players aren't using Horribly Awry? It costs 1U and counters then exiles creature spells with a cmc <= 4, a condition which hits at least 85% of the creatures in the two largest archetypes in the format right now. *shrug* A rhetorical question only which does not actually require a response.
ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:
Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy or the Commander products which both also have cards for other formats.
Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.
Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?
Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.
Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.
I wouldn't say that this is unplayable in Standard. However, I think that that is the problem. This really shouldn't be a good card in Standard because it is so weak, but since there are no better options in Standard, it probably will be.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Holy beans, I forgot that card existed. Let's at least be grateful that this card is better than Spell Snip.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
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Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
It's not going to be good vs all matchups, which is fine. Different match-ups require different answers.
I don't understand the outrage this isn't something else. It's not like this is the only card in standard or even the only new card being released.
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This is just wrong. They frequently design cards for specific formats, including Standard. They also rarely test newer cards in older formats. They test some for Modern, and have printed cards specifically for Modern, but if it wasn't designed with Modern in mind, they do very little testing for it. Nearly all of their time is spent on Standard and Limited, and for other formats, it is largely based on theory crafting.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
The rage isn't because WOTC printed another unplayable counterspell - if only I had $1 for every time they've done that. It's more that we're disappointed that WOTC missed the perfect opportunity to print another playable counterspell in standard that would have been (1) totally fine in standard, and (2) playable in modern. We're disappointed that we didn't get a playable cycling counterspell for the same reason we were disappointed that there was no revolt counterspell.
Fatal push is the exemplar for an interactive card that is good enough in modern, and not too good in standard. It's like how Tarmogoyf is so good in constructed, and so garbage in limited (admittedly not as extreme). That is the kind of solution that they need to come up with to get good counterspells into modern (since they refuse to print counterspells that will be powerful in standard. I disagree with this, but fine), and they keep missing the obivous chances to do this.
Edit: Now that I'm thinking about it some more, Silumgar's Scorn is kinda hilarious. They managed to print a card that is basically counterspell in standard, but completely useless in modern. So I guess I have no idea what R&D is thinking
I just came by to say everything you listed below sealed (which is a type of limited play so that really doesn't count as another bullet point anyway and a bunch of those are just variations on commander and pauper but I digress) other than vintage, legacy and modern are casual formats so they explicitly do not test for those because, frankly, testing for casual formats is straight up silly. Also, we know that they don't test cards for legacy or vintage because MaRo has said explicitly that they don't. Unexplicitly, that's because they straight up don't care about those formats. The only formats they really test for are standard*, limited* and modern. Asterisks for the ones they really pay attention to.
Edit: Also what in the sam hill is Emperor or Horde?
-Chandra Nalaar
Yeah they design for specific formats, But everything is ANALYZED for every possible format. Its still laughable within this very thread that statements of "Modern does not matter to the discussion" when in fact it does.
Example: Even if everything was designed for limited only, if even one card fit into a competitive Commander, Legacy, Modern or Vintage deck then it becomes that much more valuable and possibly ban-worthy.
Remember True-Name Nemesis? That card that was designed for Commander and that ended up being a hit in Legacy Fish to such an extent that you couldn't find the UBR deck anywhere that didn't already have the True-Name Nemesis gutted from it?
Dack Fayden became a huge hit in Vintage and he came from the original Conspiracy set. A set that was designed for limited.
Like remember when they printed Mental Misstep and Gitaxian Probe? Oh boy those two were so good in Modern that they both eventually had to be banned because of how they warped the format. Those two cards came from a set that was designed specifically for Standard and Limited. Same with Treasure Cruise for that matter.
The excuse that "Its for X format only, Y format doesn't matter" is such a wrong statement. As I've shown with just a few examples that it doesn't matter if only one format was considered if the rippling effect it has on other formats gives cause for concern and consideration for it.
I realize you said it was rhetorical, but I remember when it was spoiled and a few people I knew were super excited, until they realized that it only hit creatures. Essentially, it is very often a conditional essence scatter with an upside that is of a conditional value. Essence Scatter is playable, sometimes, but certainly unimpressive--horribly awry is often worse.
Also, for what it is worth, some of valanarch's examples are above what one should expect them to print. Things like mana leak with a big upside would be particularly oppressive in standard. As a result, modern's counterspell ambitions will continue to be stymied.
True-Name was designed for Legacy.
I stopped reading after that because if you didn't know that, nothing else you said mattered.
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I'm pretty sure the next set is way far along but who knows maybe they'll get Hero's Downfall into it before printing.
I've had ZERO expectation of good counters or removal and so far my expectation is being met.
They were pandering to what they thought the community wanted (don't counter my creature or kill it) and this is the standard that we get.
No really viable control or aggro (vehicles is midrange). Vehicles is laughingly only kept slightly in check by a complete ACCIDENT with dirty kitty.
The colorwheel and balance are completely broken and the only way they will get it back is print answers that are at least as good as their threats.
So either the creatures get worse (which I hope they do), or the answers have to be just as multifaceted.
Balance will be Midrange - Control - Aggro all viable and keeping each other in check.
Just don't expect it this block.
Im guessing strong by atleast mana leak or worse miscalculation I dont get why the have to peg counters at 3 mana instead of atleast 1U, heck just put back counterspell itself. Its not like we are asking for force of will.
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This is definitely a tad overpriced, but i do like that it is far easier to cycle in most cases than Miscalculation.
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You are flat out wrong. True-Name Nemesis was designed for Commander. HOWEVER the card was very popular in Legacy which led to buyouts of the card and of the deck that contained said card. You would know that if you paid even a modicum of attention. Scavenging Ooze was also not designed for other formats. But guess what? It sees play in other formats. I would stop reading your comments as well if you lack this much knowledge of the game and certain trends.
Perhaps I should reiterate. When I say "blue" I mostly mean "draw-go-control". You just don't have that prominent blue control decks in Standard. Temur tower is kind of there but just out of reach. There are, however, reasonable blue control decks in Modern (take the latest Modern GP as an example), at least in my experience.
While we are on the subject of Top cards how many cards in the Top 50 would you consider to be enough evidence that a color isn't sidelined in the format? 15%? More?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.