this card is still not very good in Standard, and pretty sure Galvanic Bombardment will still be played over it, even in red aggressive decks. There are so many x/3's flying around(Queller, Copter, Mage) that Shock just isn't good enough.
What's there to say, other than wishing it wasn't just Shock but instead a variant that pushed it closer to the sweet spot between Shock's floor and Lightning Bolt's ceiling?
That said, an unconditional 1cmc means of doming people is nice to have again in a Standard context, and dealing 2 damage isn't all that bad, there's stuff out there that the first Galvanic Bombardment of the game could take care of.
It's not quite a shock to the system, but it'll do.
Im glad to see some people are excited by this. I wish I could count myself among you. I guess I am from that spoiled age of burst lightning and lightning bolt in standard.
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Im glad to see some people are excited by this. I wish I could count myself among you. I guess I am from that spoiled age of burst lightning and lightning bolt in standard.
I don't even think the last two saw play at the time but they were strong cards in their own right.
Of course, that was also a block where we got one of the worst Chandra cards ever conceived, compare that to Torch of Defiance. Not everything was great for Red in Zendikar standard.
Im glad to see some people are excited by this. I wish I could count myself among you. I guess I am from that spoiled age of burst lightning and lightning bolt in standard.
I don't even think the last two saw play at the time but they were strong cards in their own right.
Of course, that was also a block where we got one of the worst Chandra cards ever conceived, compare that to Torch of Defiance. Not everything was great for Red in Zendikar standard.
But seriously, plain old shock isn't BAD per say, it just doesn't feel exciting at all when we recently had wild slash.
Im not complaining, it is nice to get solid, evocative reprints like this, rather than having 'Revolting Shock' that has minimal play value increase but alot more text (and therefore more complexity in an already complicated world). I get it, but Im just saying it doesnt really grab my attention for standard or anything. I guess I will play it in limited but not as high as some other burn spells get to be.
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
of the 37 cards you listed, only 13 are actual burn spells (in that they can burn players). of those 13, only two deal more damage than the mana you put into it (and only when madnessed in the case of fiery temper). Shock is a small step but a big one in the right direction for burn players
Oh, so it's only a burn spell if it can hit players? So by your logic, Lava Axe is a burn spell but Roast is not? Because by my definition, if it deals damage to anything, it's a burn spell. Whether it's a competitive burn spell is another matter.
before we get cheeky, I'm referring to an instant speed burn effect that I can use to deal 2 damage with no restrictions. You know, "oh you're at 2, K shock you GG". Nice for red to able to you know, do "red" things. Like dome you at instant speed without having to jump through a hoop.
Shock and variants thereof are a rather narrow range of burn spells to focus on. I'd be just as happy running Fiery Temper alongside Tormenting Voice or Lightning Axe, those combos are far more satisfying than simply spamming Shock.
Kaladesh really isn't a format where you can make good use of Shock, anyway, not like when Blistercoil Weird or Monastery Swiftspear were around. Sure, Thermo-Alchemist is almost as good as it effectively turns your Shock into a Bolt if you hit the opponent with it, but the Voice-Temper combo offers more juice at relatively low mana cost and also triggers Thermo-Alchemist, twice even. One Voice-Temper with one Alchemist on the field equals 5 to one opponent; four rounds of that and the game is done. The best targets for Shock right now are probably the low-toughness Artificers and Pilots in RW, and Inventor's Apprentice quite easily gets out of Shock range, especially with Ornithopter around (and if Shock proves to be good at suppressing Ornithopter, they'll just start running Inventor's Goggles). Not to mention that Peacekeeper Colossus and Heart of Kiran look ready to shake up the Vehicle scene so shocking Pilots isn't going to do much to nerf the deck.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I have never seen anyone claim that red spells that can't hit players are 'burn' until this argument. That would be like calling a green spell that only puts a land into your hand 'ramp', there is a pretty significant difference. Red needed 37 different spells because wizards was holding off from reprinting something like shock for some reason. we can basically throw out 34-35 of those "burn" spells now because of this one card, so I get why that one person was excited about finally getting another burn card.
of the 37 cards you listed, only 13 are actual burn spells (in that they can burn players). of those 13, only two deal more damage than the mana you put into it (and only when madnessed in the case of fiery temper). Shock is a small step but a big one in the right direction for burn players
Oh, so it's only a burn spell if it can hit players? So by your logic, Lava Axe is a burn spell but Roast is not? Because by my definition, if it deals damage to anything, it's a burn spell. Whether it's a competitive burn spell is another matter.
I think that's the logic everyone else uses, so yeah?
of the 37 cards you listed, only 13 are actual burn spells (in that they can burn players). of those 13, only two deal more damage than the mana you put into it (and only when madnessed in the case of fiery temper). Shock is a small step but a big one in the right direction for burn players
Oh, so it's only a burn spell if it can hit players? So by your logic, Lava Axe is a burn spell but Roast is not? Because by my definition, if it deals damage to anything, it's a burn spell. Whether it's a competitive burn spell is another matter.
Considering that the goal of the burn archetype is to kill your opponent with direct damage, yes.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
of the 37 cards you listed, only 13 are actual burn spells (in that they can burn players). of those 13, only two deal more damage than the mana you put into it (and only when madnessed in the case of fiery temper). Shock is a small step but a big one in the right direction for burn players
Oh, so it's only a burn spell if it can hit players? So by your logic, Lava Axe is a burn spell but Roast is not? Because by my definition, if it deals damage to anything, it's a burn spell. Whether it's a competitive burn spell is another matter.
Considering that the goal of the burn archetype is to kill your opponent with direct damage, yes.
I'm sorry, I usually side with the person in favor of the broader definition, but I have been a burn player literally since the first year of Modern, and yeah, a burn deck is trying to win through direct damage to the opponent. It can run other cards, but a spell is not burn if it can only hit creatures. I would be more open to calling Geth's Verdict burn to some extent because that loss of life can end the game through what is functionally direct damage
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
BRGMy Deck(Modern): Bolts'n'Burns WMy other, WIP casual deck: Zero to Hero
Protection from Will-O'-the-Wisps, Ali-from-Cairos, and Uncle-Istvans
Legendary snow landwalk
---------------------------------------
On the reserved list: Wizards won't remove it. Only we can. In other words: Play Modern, Pauper, or No-RL Eternal.
of the 37 cards you listed, only 13 are actual burn spells (in that they can burn players). of those 13, only two deal more damage than the mana you put into it (and only when madnessed in the case of fiery temper). Shock is a small step but a big one in the right direction for burn players
Oh, so it's only a burn spell if it can hit players? So by your logic, Lava Axe is a burn spell but Roast is not? Because by my definition, if it deals damage to anything, it's a burn spell. Whether it's a competitive burn spell is another matter.
If it can't kill a T1 Birds and go to the face late game I don't consider it a true burn spell.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
I was gonna say stop while you're ahead, but you were never ahead. I don't even know what is on the list of "burn" spells you made and I don't play standard (modern/legacy), and I still knew you were full of it. It's funny you ask about lava axe vs roast because I'm pretty sure any serious magic player was like, "yes, roast is not a burn spell and lava axe is a bad one." So, yeeeeeah.....
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
turn 1 shock end of your turn (2)
turn 2 untap flow (3)
turn 3 hungry flames kill your guy 2 to your face (2)
turn 4 end of your turn flame lash (4)
turn 5 defiance kill your guy deal 3 to your face (3)
turn 6 flame lash + shock ( its a little slow to 20 dmg - and it takes 13 cards in 6 turns in magical Christmas land )
Are we actually trying to debate what a "decent" burn spell is? One of the reasons mono red origins burn was so powerful was because of the amount of burn spells it ran in it's main 60. Atarka red also ran a hefty of amount instant speed burn. After atarka red, we had Thermo/visions, but that deck fell out of favor early on. Red in general lacked the reach to finish off games without needing to "put juicy" combos together. I just want my burn spell to deal 2-3 damage at instant speed and nuff said. A decent burn spell allows me to dome you EOT and then untap/ do it again. Sorcery speed burn in general is MEH against Vehicles, and shock may not help in that department, but I'm sure it'll be in aggro lists as a way to get those last few points of damage through. If you think this won't see play alongside Galvanic Bombardment then ehhh...maybe you're not thinking like a mono red player, I mean we ran Fiery Impulse alongside Wild Slash a few standard seasons ago.
I love how the mods have changed the thread title to simply "Shock Reprint".
I keep coming back and expecting to see Reserved List cards reprinted now.
I never denied that Shock is a good spell for burn, if better at some times than others. I was protesting the notion that it's a "real burn spell" in contrast to all the other perfectly fine damage-dealing red spells available in Standard. Certainly a Burn deck will want to run Shock, though I still consider Fiery Temper a better burn strategy in Standard right now thanks to support like Lightning Axe and Tormenting Voice. Of course I would just as happily run Reckless Fireweaver with artifact tokens like Master Trinketeer, Tamiyo's Journal, and the Modules.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
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The removal red needed.
I want to play with my textless Incinerates again.
What's there to say, other than wishing it wasn't just Shock but instead a variant that pushed it closer to the sweet spot between Shock's floor and Lightning Bolt's ceiling?
That said, an unconditional 1cmc means of doming people is nice to have again in a Standard context, and dealing 2 damage isn't all that bad, there's stuff out there that the first Galvanic Bombardment of the game could take care of.
It's not quite a shock to the system, but it'll do.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Don't forget Searing Blaze.
And Forked Bolt.
And Flame Slash.
I don't even think the last two saw play at the time but they were strong cards in their own right.
Of course, that was also a block where we got one of the worst Chandra cards ever conceived, compare that to Torch of Defiance. Not everything was great for Red in Zendikar standard.
Just a decent number of things.
Goblin guide. nuff said lol
But seriously, plain old shock isn't BAD per say, it just doesn't feel exciting at all when we recently had wild slash.
Im not complaining, it is nice to get solid, evocative reprints like this, rather than having 'Revolting Shock' that has minimal play value increase but alot more text (and therefore more complexity in an already complicated world). I get it, but Im just saying it doesnt really grab my attention for standard or anything. I guess I will play it in limited but not as high as some other burn spells get to be.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Oh, so it's only a burn spell if it can hit players? So by your logic, Lava Axe is a burn spell but Roast is not? Because by my definition, if it deals damage to anything, it's a burn spell. Whether it's a competitive burn spell is another matter.
Shock and variants thereof are a rather narrow range of burn spells to focus on. I'd be just as happy running Fiery Temper alongside Tormenting Voice or Lightning Axe, those combos are far more satisfying than simply spamming Shock.
Kaladesh really isn't a format where you can make good use of Shock, anyway, not like when Blistercoil Weird or Monastery Swiftspear were around. Sure, Thermo-Alchemist is almost as good as it effectively turns your Shock into a Bolt if you hit the opponent with it, but the Voice-Temper combo offers more juice at relatively low mana cost and also triggers Thermo-Alchemist, twice even. One Voice-Temper with one Alchemist on the field equals 5 to one opponent; four rounds of that and the game is done. The best targets for Shock right now are probably the low-toughness Artificers and Pilots in RW, and Inventor's Apprentice quite easily gets out of Shock range, especially with Ornithopter around (and if Shock proves to be good at suppressing Ornithopter, they'll just start running Inventor's Goggles). Not to mention that Peacekeeper Colossus and Heart of Kiran look ready to shake up the Vehicle scene so shocking Pilots isn't going to do much to nerf the deck.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
The most played creatures in Standard are Smuggler's Copter, Thraben Inspector, Scrapheap Scrounger, Inventor's Apprentice, Reflector Mage, Servant of the Conduit, Spell Queller, Selfless Spirit and Toolcraft Exemplar, so I don't think Shock looks very good compared to Galvanic Bombardment against the field except in a couple specific decks, but for Rx aggro and UR ThermoThing decks, it's a bit of a boost.
Heck, even the new Baral has 3 toughness.
I think that's the logic everyone else uses, so yeah?
-Chandra Nalaar
I'm sorry, I usually side with the person in favor of the broader definition, but I have been a burn player literally since the first year of Modern, and yeah, a burn deck is trying to win through direct damage to the opponent. It can run other cards, but a spell is not burn if it can only hit creatures. I would be more open to calling Geth's Verdict burn to some extent because that loss of life can end the game through what is functionally direct damage
WMy other, WIP casual deck: Zero to Hero
Protection from Will-O'-the-Wisps, Ali-from-Cairos, and Uncle-Istvans
Legendary snow landwalk
---------------------------------------
On the reserved list: Wizards won't remove it. Only we can. In other words: Play Modern, Pauper, or No-RL Eternal.
If it can't kill a T1 Birds and go to the face late game I don't consider it a true burn spell.
Oh, so I'm supposed to just back down when I'm challenged in a debate? No, I'll do research and put forth the results, thank you very much.
If that's true, why does this website's very own wiki list burn as "a spell or ability that deals direct damage, that is, damage to a target player or creature"? Because whenever I see people using the term burn, on Wizard's own website or elsewhere, it's in reference to all damage-dealing (or life loss-inducing) spells. And if the official pros, including the man Maro himself, use the term "burn" to describe all damage-dealing spells, it's good enough for me. There is creature burn, and there is player burn.
There's my research and results. Teach's claim about "nobody sharing my opinion" is factually, as in proven, incorrect.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Shock
Incendiary Flow
Fiery Temper
Hungry Flames
Collective Defiance
Flame Lash
turn 1 shock end of your turn (2)
turn 2 untap flow (3)
turn 3 hungry flames kill your guy 2 to your face (2)
turn 4 end of your turn flame lash (4)
turn 5 defiance kill your guy deal 3 to your face (3)
turn 6 flame lash + shock ( its a little slow to 20 dmg - and it takes 13 cards in 6 turns in magical Christmas land )
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I keep coming back and expecting to see Reserved List cards reprinted now.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.