The Kami are no longer manifesting? Where are you getting that from? Did Tamiyo mention something about that and I missed that? Or are you using it as a pitch for the return? I'd just settle for making the Kami more human. It's not as though we don't have Amaterasu and the other Heavenly Kami as humans, I think that'd clear up some of the drama. Though given the popularity of Youkai I could see them using less human stuff and it working out.
But yeah, I'd be fine with that. I just really, really, don't want to see Samurai and Ninja the plane, that would easily become my least favorite plane ever.
The original reason the Kami were manifesting in Kamigawa was to participate in the Kami War, which has been resolved for millennia now. Not to mention the Sisters changing the way magic functions on Kamigawa. There are two reasons the Kami wouldn't be manifesting. Or at least not as often.
My impression was that the Kami were still up and about doing something. Mostly because of a line Tamiyo used in her first real story. "She whispered a small prayer to the kami. She knew, of course, that there were no kami here—that spirits manifested themselves very differently from plane to plane and that the geists of Innistrad bore no resemblance to the small gods of her home. None of her experiments had indicated that the kami could hear her prayers across the boundaries of planes. But the mere fact of their local immeasurability was no excuse to be rude." At least the way it's worded makes me think that she has some degree of interaction with them, otherwise I would kind of question what kind of experiments she would have conducted.
Not saying they can't be more background, and I'm fine with that. So long as they don't drop off the face of the plane. There should still be some heavy duty Mythic Rare Legendary Kami.
My impression was that the Kami were still up and about doing something. Mostly because of a line Tamiyo used in her first real story. "She whispered a small prayer to the kami. She knew, of course, that there were no kami here—that spirits manifested themselves very differently from plane to plane and that the geists of Innistrad bore no resemblance to the small gods of her home. None of her experiments had indicated that the kami could hear her prayers across the boundaries of planes. But the mere fact of their local immeasurability was no excuse to be rude." At least the way it's worded makes me think that she has some degree of interaction with them, otherwise I would kind of question what kind of experiments she would have conducted.
Not saying they can't be more background, and I'm fine with that. So long as they don't drop off the face of the plane. There should still be some heavy duty Mythic Rare Legendary Kami.
The Kami are present but not manifesting. Kamigawa, similar to Theros, has multiple realms. In its case it has the Spirit and Physical world. The Kami belong to the former, and only crossed over because That Which Was Taken was… taken.
*shrugs* I mean, I was theorizing that they might still be manifesting in spite of what was supposed to happen, but who knows. I know what was supposed to happen, but like a lot of things in Magic I don't really expect that to absolutely hold true for a revisit. From what I recall both Mirrodin and Ravnica altered things in the revisit, so Kamigawa still having Kami manifesting wouldn't surprise me. I just was explaining why that wouldn't surprise me given what Tamiyo said.
Though this is pretty far off from potential Atzlan, barring that I hope there are gods. Will be kind of odd in that barring Innistrad their bottom up planes have all had gods.
My impression was that the Kami were still up and about doing something. Mostly because of a line Tamiyo used in her first real story. "She whispered a small prayer to the kami. She knew, of course, that there were no kami here—that spirits manifested themselves very differently from plane to plane and that the geists of Innistrad bore no resemblance to the small gods of her home. None of her experiments had indicated that the kami could hear her prayers across the boundaries of planes. But the mere fact of their local immeasurability was no excuse to be rude." At least the way it's worded makes me think that she has some degree of interaction with them, otherwise I would kind of question what kind of experiments she would have conducted.
Not saying they can't be more background, and I'm fine with that. So long as they don't drop off the face of the plane. There should still be some heavy duty Mythic Rare Legendary Kami.
The point of the Sisters of Flesh and Spirit becoming a bridge between the material and the spiritual worlds was that now the Kami and the mortals are no longer in conflict but bound to each other, wasn't it? It was the fusion of a human and a god after all. Then perhaps the Kami and the spiritual world have reverted back to the state of being immanent to all the things on the plane rather than transcending them, and consequently Tamiyo might still be connected to the Kami even as she planeswalks away from Kamigawa. At the very least that reflects the Shinto view that Kami and people don't exist separately.
The reason Kamigawa is a poor candiate for a return and thus will always be passed over in favor of other returns is due to a fundamental nature of returns themselves.<br>
<br>
A return has to capture the core identity and premise of the original. It doesnt need to be a copy, but if Block A is about thing X Block A2 ALSO has to be about thing X.<br>
<br>
Innistrad and Shadows were not the same bit they were horror graveyard sets built around 5 tribal factions and transformation.<br>
<br>
If Wotc made a new Innistrad and they didnt have dfc or the vampires and werewolves it would fail conceptually.<br>
<br>
Of course you can add new factors, Shadows tossed in themes of Cosmic Horror and thus madness, but the core of the plane remained.<br>
<br>
You can't do that with Kamigawa Becasue the core of the plane is the part not worth returning to.<br>
<br>
Kamigawa is a Shinto themed plane with a mechanical focus on Legendaries and a grab bag of random mechancis meant to brute force the top down flavor with lityle to no cohesion. <br>
<br>
You cant do Shinto becasue a top down set is based on flavor, and a flavor that the vast majority of your audience doesn't get cannot function as flavor. It may as well not be there, which means your sets core driving identity is mostly pointless. Which means all those unique obscure tribes are pretty much out the window. Orochi and Kitsune are mostly flavorless compared to , Zombies, Vampires Werewolves and Gods.<br>
<br>
And Legends Matters is inherently impossoble to design becasue you cant build a set theme about something that by its nature cannot be heavily diffused in the set.(Especially when it cant be at common at all)<br>
<br>
Of the rest of the mechanics very few are salvageable. Not just being poor designs,but not executing the blocks theme well.<br>
<br>
Bushido is a generic creature mechanic that doesn't capture the theme of samurai beyond "likes to fight "<br>
<br>
Arcane is pararsitic and doesn't push the "factional war" thru gameplay at all. ( Compare how Scars and Innistrad executed faction/tribal based warfare though gameplay) <br>
<br>
Epic spells and shrines are kinda cool, but are too slim to use as a core. Hand size matters is just stupid. Flip cards could maybe be redone as dfc, but the reason they were in Kami was to work for the legends theme which as we ssid before cant be done.<br>
<br>
That basically leaves Ninjitusu and the spirit tribal stuff which would be all fine and good if the sets core premise wasn't based on the Shinto stuff, and the Kami/spirits. Something that cannot be used for a return .<br>
<br>
In a top down set, mechanical unrelated ideas are tied together by the flavor theme. Enchantments and sinking mana to get bigger have nothing yo do with eachother,but when flavored as Heroes being blessed by gods to fight monsters it ties into a Greek Myth.<br>
<br>
Without the shinto stuff, even if you do make splice not suck by making it go on sorceries and instants if its no longer representing the Kami it has no real reason to be there. <br>
<br>
Ninjitsu being pretty much the obly salavagble part of Kamigawa is probably the reason why its the only mechanic to get a return.<br>
<br>
<br>
So best case scenario for Kamigawa 2 we get Ninjitsu, if we push it, a better Splice along with Shrines and Epic but again those are tied to the Shinto top down flavor which is fundmanetally untenable . If you did a return to Kamigawa you would have to just do it as a Japan set which means <br>
<br>
1. Adding in a bunch of Japanese flavor thats actually resonant<br>
<br>
2. Cutting all the non resonant stuff from Kamigawa<br>
<br>
3. Designing around 1 instead of 2<br>
<br>
That means Kamigawa 2 would have to try to be a return with only one returning mechanic and almost no returning flavor, for a top doen set!<br>
<br>
If you are just going to replace everything but the name and one mechanic, it's just a return in name only and may as well be a new set.<br>
<br>
And even if wotc busts there asses and works through ALL those problems, why would they go through that trouble instead of returning to the over a dozen other planes with bigger fanbases and none of those massive design hurrdles.<br>
<br>
Its climbing a mountain to please a thousand instead of climbing a hill to please a million.<br>
<br>
Honestly I dont hate Kamigawa I think it's art was cool and it was the prototype for a lot of what I love about mtg. I hate what it represents <br>
<br>
Since mtg's big player explosion snd sucess in 2009 via m10, resonance, new world order and the acquisition plan there is a strong undercurrent in the enfranxhised minority that mtg "sold out." That they by trying to make something to entertain as many people as possible they are dumbing it down. They see nee player acquisition as a bad thing, and when they hear wotc talk about not going to Kamigawa becasue most players didnt get the flavor it becomes a symbol of everything thry hate about current mtg.<br>
<br>
You see it here with one saying" they would just make it weaboo stuff for mass appeal" the ssme kind of mindset that sees arthkuse moves as inherently better than blockbusters. The "backpap rap" and "indie rock" types, that feel mainstream is fundmanetally opposed to art.<br>
<br>
Time Spiral gets this too. <br>
<br>
To this segment it doesn't matter that the overwhelmingly large base of the game doesnt have this appeal to them. To them, wotc designing for the majority and not the niche complex, obscure wonky minority is a sin. New Player is a slur, Draw Go, massive complexity and obscure flavor is golden.<br>
<br>
Kamigawa bas become a maytyr, people who didn't even play it can hold it as a standard of the good old days before mtg was "mainstream " and normies/casuals/plebes/timmys didnt ruin it with there nwo and dislike of 29 counterspells.dec and land destruction and ***** creatures and obscure flavor snd complicated names and algorithmic board states and commons with 7 lines of text.<br>
<br>
So often times when I hear people say Kamigawa can be done, they dont present ways out of its numerous flaws, they deny those flaws to begin with and at tkmes even hold them as pros.<br>
<br>
Because to them, the idea of MTG being a game and thus should be fun and entertaining to as many people as possible flies against the exclusionary hipster BS that considers designing a game for the people who are mostly playing it as "selling out." The kind who assume quality and marketability are mutually exclusive and who hold Kamigawa as some long lost Martyr of Pretension instead of a really REALLY bad play and design experience (although limited was okay) just becasue it fits there narrative of wotc ruining the game to sell it to a bunch of 13 year olds.
Kamigawa will probably never get another expert level expansion but wotc continuously throws a bone to its niche base with supplemental products like Planechase and Commander while also doing nods to it with stuff like Tamiyo.
Kamigawa gets its focus by wotc in proportion to its acclaim as it should be.
As for a main standard return Ravnica, Innistrad, Zendikar, Kaladesh, Theros, Alara, Dominaria, Tarkir, Vryn, Fiora, and New Phyrexia (Mirrodin) are way ahead of it in line. And I would much rather see wotc put the time effort and care into what iys audience actually wants instead of screwing the majority over to bend over backwards to a niche.
A revisit of Kamigawa at this point in time would probably mean a Kamigawa that would focus on the things people actually like from Japan
Yeah I also always find it terrible when companies focus on things people actually like.
I much prefer it when they present me stuff that I am hesitant to buy.
He phrased it awkwardly, but I think the point is that a return to Kamigawa would be majorly dumbed down and standardized to be marketable rather than rich and rife with creativity and original ideas that push boundaries like the original did.
Frankly, returns have been rather messy - specifically BFZ. So I can understand not wanting to return to anything at all at this point, considering WOTC just hasn't been willing to chill out. BFZ was horrible in every sense and had a completely wrong focus. SOI and EMN were good but radically changed Innistrad for the worst. It wasn't enough that Emrakul layered cosmic horror over gothic horror (which alone would have been brilliant) but they had to get excessive with it and kill off Avacyn and warp the angels too. I admire SOI creatively as the cosmic horror tropes were brilliant and the return felt authentic. But turning a plane inside out like that and then drastically compromising its identity for the sake of dramatic effect is absurd. People want to return so they see more of the same that was liked before. Changes should be more subtle than turning everything on its head and being baffled by everyone's aversion to not getting what they wanted by returning there. It's like going to electronics store and getting someone trying to sell you tomatoes. We didn't come here for that. SOI could have worked if they just allowed the cosmic horror and Emrakul to shine, but didn't overload the changes to Innistrad itself. Crazy murdering angels, Avacyn killed, Markov Manor destroyed, cosmic horror, Nahiri as a new villain, Emrakul trapped in the moon - just too much. Still, the story was damn good and the cards were on theme.
RTR was, like everything about Ravnica, dull as hell. But it was Ravnica with updates when we got there, and it's still Ravnica after we left, at least.
I'm fine with never returning to Kamigawa. As I said, make cards for the original characters from the novels - AT LEAST Choryu, and I can live with never seeing it again. What I can't stand is saying WOTC is not capable of making Return to Kamigawa great, or that player's wouldn't love it when done right. Because that is objectively false. Kamigawa has a lot to salvage and build upon to make the excellent Japan World it was always meant to be. And I will always prefer a revised Kamigawa over a new Japan World if and when the option presents itself. I actually think duplicating the theme of a plane is the single worst thing WOTC can do. It makes every plane less special and unique and thus less interesting. Who cares if a plane gets destroyed, there are countless other Greek Myth worlds, or Gothic Horror worlds. There is no incentive to even care anymore if this happens.
But of course Flisch, to their kind, doing anything for the sake of popular appeal is sacrilege, MTG should exist to cater to pretentious nerds and there sense of superiority via overwhelming complexity, impentarvable lore, draw go and land destruction (Becasue playing the game is for plebes) *****ty creatures in a game about fighting with creatures and next to no interaction.
Hell someone here actually said mosy Kamigawa fans dont even care about standard and somehow thought that was a reason TO return.
Newsflash, if most of the people a return would enjoy dont even play the primary format standard sets are for, maybe it should be taken as a sign they are a whiny minority on the internet you shouldn't shoot yourself in the foot for.
Jesus Christ you unironically considered "things people actually like" as a BAD THING.
Kamigawa's PROBLEM was that it was full of unmarketable flavor married to crappy mechanic design. You rightfully point out that a return to a set is pointless if they just change it, and also point out Kamigawa's lore is untenable but you dont put two and two together to realize that they either RETURN to the lore has the same problems as last time or they CHANGE the lore becasue the original lore doesnt work.
Its the same reason Innistrad wasn't on Golgotha. Golgotha ******* sucked and if they returned to it, they would have to return to a decent chunk of it for it to be an actual return, which is a bad idea becasue it would waste there design resources on polishing a turd instead of making something actually good.
We DONT do redundant planes but we do make new ones to replaced failed ones . Its not like Innistrad and Golgotha are redundant, becasue Golgotha is ***** and will rightfully never be seen from again.
Wotc CAN do a good Japanese themed set but not a good return to Kamigawa set, becasue faithfully returning to Kamigawa in a good way is an oxymoron, its fundamental design goals,premise and execution were failures. You basically have to start from scratch.
As per MaRo's decree, Wizards works with expectations/tropes that can be made to appeal to and resonate with the people they're selling their product to. Which, of course, makes sense. Maximize profit etc. You don't have to like it (I personally don't), but this is reality.
What does this mean for Japan?
Sushi, chopsticks, pagodas, cherry blossoms, tea, ninjas, samurai, a few strange names, maybe kabuki if you're lucky: stereotypical pop culture, because it's what the majority of people associate with Japan. WotC will hopefully add a flavor/spin of their own, but this will undeniably be at the core. Kamigawa failed precisely because it was not stereotypical, and hence, not something people were familiar or could relate to.
I appreciated Kamigawa and wouldn't mind a return, but I think people haven't parsed the distinction that it was Shinto World, not Japan World. To those that know the former is actually part of the latter (and an interesting one at that), such a distinction sounds paradoxical/oxymoronic, but Wizards learned the hard way - in terms of its interests at least (profit/engagement) - that the majority of people don't.
As people have said, things have changed a lot since the events in the Kamigawa block, and as such a hypothetical return could maybe work with some of the already present things/lore even if the plane's presentation were radically changed to fit the new build-upon-stereotypes/expectations/tropes approach. But even if this approach were viable, why bother?
Older fans who wanted to return to Kamigawa will be unhappy that they got a watered down version. Older fans who didn't will be unhappy that they returned at all. New fans will have heard from word of mouth that Kamigawa sucked and will have bad/low expectations and engagement.
Going back is a catch 22. I could see them doing it, but I don't think it's likely. Kamigawa is Shinto World. Wizards is commendable for even having tried to work with and promote such an unorthodox setting, but it didn't pan out, save for a vocal few (few in the grand scheme of things). We are in all likelihood never going back to Shinto World.
Whether an evolved/changed Kamigawa is chosen to be Japan World (and there will be one eventually, there's too much money there for it not to) remains to be seen, but from what I can see and understand the odds should not in its favor.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
A revisit of Kamigawa at this point in time would probably mean a Kamigawa that would focus on the things people actually like from Japan
Yeah I also always find it terrible when companies focus on things people actually like.
I much prefer it when they present me stuff that I am hesitant to buy.
I too am looking forward to Naruto meets Bleach the plane. Nothing is more authentic Japanese than such cards as Zanpakuto (Equipment) or Rasengan (Instant). Truly once they add Goku (Legendary Creature) no plane will surpass this plane in terms of authenticity and quality source material.
Hell someone here actually said mosy Kamigawa fans dont even care about standard and somehow thought that was a reason TO return.
Newsflash, if most of the people a return would enjoy dont even play the primary format standard sets are for, maybe it should be taken as a sign they are a whiny minority on the internet you shouldn't shoot yourself in the foot for.
Don't take my statements out of context. Thanks. I was speaking about Legendary appeal from EDH in Kamigawa and how 2004 standard environment is hardly something to gauge modern audience impressions of Kamigawa after the game has changed as much as it has. Of course current Kamigawa fans don't care about standard - it isn't even in standard and hasn't been for over a decade - yet the appeal persists for other reasons. Meaning there is something to it which can be salvaged and used to hit a broader swath of interests.
Speaking as someone who's lived in Japan for 20+ years, I hope they never do a Japanese-flavored plane, because I won't be able to stand hearing people mangle pronunciations for years....
What's annoying is they keep referencing it via Tamiyo, even visiting the plane in the story articles.
I mean for a plane they allegedly don't ever want to return to, they sure give it a lot of attention. You'd think they wouldn't have bothered creating Tamiyo in the first place and they would've never mentioned Kamigawa again.
So I think they're just figuring out how much of all the boring stuff they can cut before going back and making it all about ninjas and all that good stuff.
They'll make the announcement to return come off like a surprise thing but really I think they're teasing the hell out of it.
They'll get mega hype and with the 2 sets to a block going on now and faster storytelling, they're risking a lot less if they mess it up again.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Speaking as someone who's lived in Japan for 20+ years, I hope they never do a Japanese-flavored plane, because I won't be able to stand hearing people mangle pronunciations for years....
Oh, don't you worry, Magic doesn't need to visit foreign cultures in order to print cards that people will horribly mangle the pronunciation of. Mispronouncing things is something MtG players excel at.
What's annoying is they keep referencing it via Tamiyo, even visiting the plane in the story articles.
I mean for a plane they allegedly don't ever want to return to, they sure give it a lot of attention. You'd think they wouldn't have bothered creating Tamiyo in the first place and they would've never mentioned Kamigawa again.
So I think they're just figuring out how much of all the boring stuff they can cut before going back and making it all about ninjas and all that good stuff.
They'll make the announcement to return come off like a surprise thing but really I think they're teasing the hell out of it.
They'll get mega hype and with the 2 sets to a block going on now and faster storytelling, they're risking a lot less if they mess it up again.
Well the "teasing" is actually their way of trying to give fans of Kamigawa at least something they can hold onto even though they will never get a full fledged return. That's also the reason they are printing Kamigawa-themed cards in supplemental products. Maro more or less confirmed this. They know that there is a group of players who like that world, but they don't see it worth a return. You don't have to like that decision, but I actually am happy that they are trying to at least give us these tidbits instead. They could have just let the world disappear completely like they did with Golgothra.
It is official. I do not want to get into standard or buy any more boosters. Egypt theme is meh for me and Meso-America is also meh. I am waiting for the viking set or ravnica or kamigawa set. I am also looking forward for a pure medieval set with knights and witches that are not twisted by eldrazi or anything else.
You can`t hit a home run with everyone when it comes to flavour and setting. I`m not a huge fan of Egypt either, but a lot of people have asked for it for a long time, and personally I think a Viking set would be utterly ridiculous. But they have a way of making sets look and feel Magic-y regardless of setting, so I`m never too worried.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
I'm going to agree with the people talking about who 'Atlazan' being after Amonkhet is doubtful because it would mean three new worlds in a row.
We had BFZ then SOI, two returning, now with Kaladesh and Amonkhet, I expect a returning then a new.
I just do not get it why they do not do magic anymore like in the old days with scary things on black, knights and stuff on white, sorcery stuff on red and blue and big stuff on green. Angels like to fight demons and the game felt like magic. Now sets got a twist that ruins all of that.
You answered it yourself, those things just got old. We can't expect the game to still look like Alpha after decades of existence, even if tapping White Knights against your opponent's Demonic Hordes sounds cool.
Personally though, I think the current settings with the theme park worlds are more fun. Maybe we'll get an Arthurian world or something like that in the future, who knows? But I guess even that would have a twist in which Gideon has an incestuous relationship with his half-sister and gets killed by his illegitimate son.
Newsflash, authenticity dne quality. A games flavor is meant to entertain and resonate with its audience, if they dont GET the flavor it ceases to work as flavor.
OG Innistrad wasn't even close to accurate, it was a Hodge podge of sources and inspirations themed on gothic horror from across the century but people GOT IT.
Of course the Skaabs were themed on the dumb hulking brute of image of the monster from pop culture, no ***** Delver was Jeff Goldblum Fly, of course the Vampire's were Trueblood/Ann Rice/The Masquerade style descendent pretty boys instesd of Nosferatus, the whole point of flavor is to use tropes and genres your audience knows to enhance the play and grokability of the game.
Yeah Kamigawa was super accurate shinto but that is a very ineffective flavor to use becasue for most people its no different from random momsters and words.
And not being random monsters and words deceats the whole idea of a top down set.
It may as well been Kithkin . A flavor set who'se flavor doesnt work has failed fundamentally as a premise. It's like making your stop signs all in brail.
I just do not get it why they do not do magic anymore like in the old days with scary things on black, knights and stuff on white, sorcery stuff on red and blue and big stuff on green. Angels like to fight demons and the game felt like magic. Now sets got a twist that ruins all of that.
Becasue fantasy overall has milked that Tolkien High Fantasy mideveil times shtick pretty hard and the game and genre is far broader than that.
There are dozens and dozens of differnt lesser knowm themes you can do before going to generic fanatsy land.
I'm going to agree with the people talking about who 'Atlazan' being after Amonkhet is doubtful because it would mean three new worlds in a row.
We had BFZ then SOI, two returning, now with Kaladesh and Amonkhet, I expect a returning then a new.
Would just mean two returns back to back afterwards to make even. Like Ravnica 3-Theros (tho maybe thats to simialr to before) Ravnica 3-Dominaria perhaps?
A revisit of Kamigawa at this point in time would probably mean a Kamigawa that would focus on the things people actually like from Japan
Yeah I also always find it terrible when companies focus on things people actually like.
I much prefer it when they present me stuff that I am hesitant to buy.
I too am looking forward to Naruto meets Bleach the plane. Nothing is more authentic Japanese than such cards as Zanpakuto (Equipment) or Rasengan (Instant). Truly once they add Goku (Legendary Creature) no plane will surpass this plane in terms of authenticity and quality source material.
The japanese culture and shinto is alive and still practised in modern times. Just how Wizards didn't go bollywood with Kaladesh they will not go anime with Kamigawa 2.0. They will treat it with the same respect and dignity as other cultures that are still around and not reduce it to a collection of crude stereotypes. Your worries are unfounded and, quite frankly, paranoid.
As an aside a thing that is often mentioned both outside as well as INSIDE the "Kamiwaga crowd" is how everyone loved the Samurais and Ninjas and wants them to return. These are well-known parts of japanese history and culture without being trite clichés. This is the kind of thing we will see. Popular, but also authentic aspects of japanese culture and history.
But yeah, I'd be fine with that. I just really, really, don't want to see Samurai and Ninja the plane, that would easily become my least favorite plane ever.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Not saying they can't be more background, and I'm fine with that. So long as they don't drop off the face of the plane. There should still be some heavy duty Mythic Rare Legendary Kami.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Though this is pretty far off from potential Atzlan, barring that I hope there are gods. Will be kind of odd in that barring Innistrad their bottom up planes have all had gods.
The point of the Sisters of Flesh and Spirit becoming a bridge between the material and the spiritual worlds was that now the Kami and the mortals are no longer in conflict but bound to each other, wasn't it? It was the fusion of a human and a god after all. Then perhaps the Kami and the spiritual world have reverted back to the state of being immanent to all the things on the plane rather than transcending them, and consequently Tamiyo might still be connected to the Kami even as she planeswalks away from Kamigawa. At the very least that reflects the Shinto view that Kami and people don't exist separately.
<br>
A return has to capture the core identity and premise of the original. It doesnt need to be a copy, but if Block A is about thing X Block A2 ALSO has to be about thing X.<br>
<br>
Innistrad and Shadows were not the same bit they were horror graveyard sets built around 5 tribal factions and transformation.<br>
<br>
If Wotc made a new Innistrad and they didnt have dfc or the vampires and werewolves it would fail conceptually.<br>
<br>
Of course you can add new factors, Shadows tossed in themes of Cosmic Horror and thus madness, but the core of the plane remained.<br>
<br>
You can't do that with Kamigawa Becasue the core of the plane is the part not worth returning to.<br>
<br>
Kamigawa is a Shinto themed plane with a mechanical focus on Legendaries and a grab bag of random mechancis meant to brute force the top down flavor with lityle to no cohesion. <br>
<br>
You cant do Shinto becasue a top down set is based on flavor, and a flavor that the vast majority of your audience doesn't get cannot function as flavor. It may as well not be there, which means your sets core driving identity is mostly pointless. Which means all those unique obscure tribes are pretty much out the window. Orochi and Kitsune are mostly flavorless compared to , Zombies, Vampires Werewolves and Gods.<br>
<br>
And Legends Matters is inherently impossoble to design becasue you cant build a set theme about something that by its nature cannot be heavily diffused in the set.(Especially when it cant be at common at all)<br>
<br>
Of the rest of the mechanics very few are salvageable. Not just being poor designs,but not executing the blocks theme well.<br>
<br>
Bushido is a generic creature mechanic that doesn't capture the theme of samurai beyond "likes to fight "<br>
<br>
Arcane is pararsitic and doesn't push the "factional war" thru gameplay at all. ( Compare how Scars and Innistrad executed faction/tribal based warfare though gameplay) <br>
<br>
Epic spells and shrines are kinda cool, but are too slim to use as a core. Hand size matters is just stupid. Flip cards could maybe be redone as dfc, but the reason they were in Kami was to work for the legends theme which as we ssid before cant be done.<br>
<br>
That basically leaves Ninjitusu and the spirit tribal stuff which would be all fine and good if the sets core premise wasn't based on the Shinto stuff, and the Kami/spirits. Something that cannot be used for a return .<br>
<br>
In a top down set, mechanical unrelated ideas are tied together by the flavor theme. Enchantments and sinking mana to get bigger have nothing yo do with eachother,but when flavored as Heroes being blessed by gods to fight monsters it ties into a Greek Myth.<br>
<br>
Without the shinto stuff, even if you do make splice not suck by making it go on sorceries and instants if its no longer representing the Kami it has no real reason to be there. <br>
<br>
Ninjitsu being pretty much the obly salavagble part of Kamigawa is probably the reason why its the only mechanic to get a return.<br>
<br>
<br>
So best case scenario for Kamigawa 2 we get Ninjitsu, if we push it, a better Splice along with Shrines and Epic but again those are tied to the Shinto top down flavor which is fundmanetally untenable . If you did a return to Kamigawa you would have to just do it as a Japan set which means <br>
<br>
1. Adding in a bunch of Japanese flavor thats actually resonant<br>
<br>
2. Cutting all the non resonant stuff from Kamigawa<br>
<br>
3. Designing around 1 instead of 2<br>
<br>
That means Kamigawa 2 would have to try to be a return with only one returning mechanic and almost no returning flavor, for a top doen set!<br>
<br>
If you are just going to replace everything but the name and one mechanic, it's just a return in name only and may as well be a new set.<br>
<br>
And even if wotc busts there asses and works through ALL those problems, why would they go through that trouble instead of returning to the over a dozen other planes with bigger fanbases and none of those massive design hurrdles.<br>
<br>
Its climbing a mountain to please a thousand instead of climbing a hill to please a million.<br>
<br>
Honestly I dont hate Kamigawa I think it's art was cool and it was the prototype for a lot of what I love about mtg. I hate what it represents <br>
<br>
Since mtg's big player explosion snd sucess in 2009 via m10, resonance, new world order and the acquisition plan there is a strong undercurrent in the enfranxhised minority that mtg "sold out." That they by trying to make something to entertain as many people as possible they are dumbing it down. They see nee player acquisition as a bad thing, and when they hear wotc talk about not going to Kamigawa becasue most players didnt get the flavor it becomes a symbol of everything thry hate about current mtg.<br>
<br>
You see it here with one saying" they would just make it weaboo stuff for mass appeal" the ssme kind of mindset that sees arthkuse moves as inherently better than blockbusters. The "backpap rap" and "indie rock" types, that feel mainstream is fundmanetally opposed to art.<br>
<br>
Time Spiral gets this too. <br>
<br>
To this segment it doesn't matter that the overwhelmingly large base of the game doesnt have this appeal to them. To them, wotc designing for the majority and not the niche complex, obscure wonky minority is a sin. New Player is a slur, Draw Go, massive complexity and obscure flavor is golden.<br>
<br>
Kamigawa bas become a maytyr, people who didn't even play it can hold it as a standard of the good old days before mtg was "mainstream " and normies/casuals/plebes/timmys didnt ruin it with there nwo and dislike of 29 counterspells.dec and land destruction and ***** creatures and obscure flavor snd complicated names and algorithmic board states and commons with 7 lines of text.<br>
<br>
So often times when I hear people say Kamigawa can be done, they dont present ways out of its numerous flaws, they deny those flaws to begin with and at tkmes even hold them as pros.<br>
<br>
Because to them, the idea of MTG being a game and thus should be fun and entertaining to as many people as possible flies against the exclusionary hipster BS that considers designing a game for the people who are mostly playing it as "selling out." The kind who assume quality and marketability are mutually exclusive and who hold Kamigawa as some long lost Martyr of Pretension instead of a really REALLY bad play and design experience (although limited was okay) just becasue it fits there narrative of wotc ruining the game to sell it to a bunch of 13 year olds.
Kamigawa will probably never get another expert level expansion but wotc continuously throws a bone to its niche base with supplemental products like Planechase and Commander while also doing nods to it with stuff like Tamiyo.
Kamigawa gets its focus by wotc in proportion to its acclaim as it should be.
As for a main standard return Ravnica, Innistrad, Zendikar, Kaladesh, Theros, Alara, Dominaria, Tarkir, Vryn, Fiora, and New Phyrexia (Mirrodin) are way ahead of it in line. And I would much rather see wotc put the time effort and care into what iys audience actually wants instead of screwing the majority over to bend over backwards to a niche.
Yeah I also always find it terrible when companies focus on things people actually like.
I much prefer it when they present me stuff that I am hesitant to buy.
Frankly, returns have been rather messy - specifically BFZ. So I can understand not wanting to return to anything at all at this point, considering WOTC just hasn't been willing to chill out. BFZ was horrible in every sense and had a completely wrong focus. SOI and EMN were good but radically changed Innistrad for the worst. It wasn't enough that Emrakul layered cosmic horror over gothic horror (which alone would have been brilliant) but they had to get excessive with it and kill off Avacyn and warp the angels too. I admire SOI creatively as the cosmic horror tropes were brilliant and the return felt authentic. But turning a plane inside out like that and then drastically compromising its identity for the sake of dramatic effect is absurd. People want to return so they see more of the same that was liked before. Changes should be more subtle than turning everything on its head and being baffled by everyone's aversion to not getting what they wanted by returning there. It's like going to electronics store and getting someone trying to sell you tomatoes. We didn't come here for that. SOI could have worked if they just allowed the cosmic horror and Emrakul to shine, but didn't overload the changes to Innistrad itself. Crazy murdering angels, Avacyn killed, Markov Manor destroyed, cosmic horror, Nahiri as a new villain, Emrakul trapped in the moon - just too much. Still, the story was damn good and the cards were on theme.
RTR was, like everything about Ravnica, dull as hell. But it was Ravnica with updates when we got there, and it's still Ravnica after we left, at least.
I'm fine with never returning to Kamigawa. As I said, make cards for the original characters from the novels - AT LEAST Choryu, and I can live with never seeing it again. What I can't stand is saying WOTC is not capable of making Return to Kamigawa great, or that player's wouldn't love it when done right. Because that is objectively false. Kamigawa has a lot to salvage and build upon to make the excellent Japan World it was always meant to be. And I will always prefer a revised Kamigawa over a new Japan World if and when the option presents itself. I actually think duplicating the theme of a plane is the single worst thing WOTC can do. It makes every plane less special and unique and thus less interesting. Who cares if a plane gets destroyed, there are countless other Greek Myth worlds, or Gothic Horror worlds. There is no incentive to even care anymore if this happens.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Hell someone here actually said mosy Kamigawa fans dont even care about standard and somehow thought that was a reason TO return.
Newsflash, if most of the people a return would enjoy dont even play the primary format standard sets are for, maybe it should be taken as a sign they are a whiny minority on the internet you shouldn't shoot yourself in the foot for.
Jesus Christ you unironically considered "things people actually like" as a BAD THING.
Kamigawa's PROBLEM was that it was full of unmarketable flavor married to crappy mechanic design. You rightfully point out that a return to a set is pointless if they just change it, and also point out Kamigawa's lore is untenable but you dont put two and two together to realize that they either RETURN to the lore has the same problems as last time or they CHANGE the lore becasue the original lore doesnt work.
Its the same reason Innistrad wasn't on Golgotha. Golgotha ******* sucked and if they returned to it, they would have to return to a decent chunk of it for it to be an actual return, which is a bad idea becasue it would waste there design resources on polishing a turd instead of making something actually good.
We DONT do redundant planes but we do make new ones to replaced failed ones . Its not like Innistrad and Golgotha are redundant, becasue Golgotha is ***** and will rightfully never be seen from again.
Wotc CAN do a good Japanese themed set but not a good return to Kamigawa set, becasue faithfully returning to Kamigawa in a good way is an oxymoron, its fundamental design goals,premise and execution were failures. You basically have to start from scratch.
What does this mean for Japan?
Sushi, chopsticks, pagodas, cherry blossoms, tea, ninjas, samurai, a few strange names, maybe kabuki if you're lucky: stereotypical pop culture, because it's what the majority of people associate with Japan. WotC will hopefully add a flavor/spin of their own, but this will undeniably be at the core. Kamigawa failed precisely because it was not stereotypical, and hence, not something people were familiar or could relate to.
I appreciated Kamigawa and wouldn't mind a return, but I think people haven't parsed the distinction that it was Shinto World, not Japan World. To those that know the former is actually part of the latter (and an interesting one at that), such a distinction sounds paradoxical/oxymoronic, but Wizards learned the hard way - in terms of its interests at least (profit/engagement) - that the majority of people don't.
As people have said, things have changed a lot since the events in the Kamigawa block, and as such a hypothetical return could maybe work with some of the already present things/lore even if the plane's presentation were radically changed to fit the new build-upon-stereotypes/expectations/tropes approach. But even if this approach were viable, why bother?
Older fans who wanted to return to Kamigawa will be unhappy that they got a watered down version. Older fans who didn't will be unhappy that they returned at all. New fans will have heard from word of mouth that Kamigawa sucked and will have bad/low expectations and engagement.
Going back is a catch 22. I could see them doing it, but I don't think it's likely. Kamigawa is Shinto World. Wizards is commendable for even having tried to work with and promote such an unorthodox setting, but it didn't pan out, save for a vocal few (few in the grand scheme of things). We are in all likelihood never going back to Shinto World.
Whether an evolved/changed Kamigawa is chosen to be Japan World (and there will be one eventually, there's too much money there for it not to) remains to be seen, but from what I can see and understand the odds should not in its favor.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I too am looking forward to Naruto meets Bleach the plane. Nothing is more authentic Japanese than such cards as Zanpakuto (Equipment) or Rasengan (Instant). Truly once they add Goku (Legendary Creature) no plane will surpass this plane in terms of authenticity and quality source material.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
What's annoying is they keep referencing it via Tamiyo, even visiting the plane in the story articles.
I mean for a plane they allegedly don't ever want to return to, they sure give it a lot of attention. You'd think they wouldn't have bothered creating Tamiyo in the first place and they would've never mentioned Kamigawa again.
So I think they're just figuring out how much of all the boring stuff they can cut before going back and making it all about ninjas and all that good stuff.
They'll make the announcement to return come off like a surprise thing but really I think they're teasing the hell out of it.
They'll get mega hype and with the 2 sets to a block going on now and faster storytelling, they're risking a lot less if they mess it up again.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
Well the "teasing" is actually their way of trying to give fans of Kamigawa at least something they can hold onto even though they will never get a full fledged return. That's also the reason they are printing Kamigawa-themed cards in supplemental products. Maro more or less confirmed this. They know that there is a group of players who like that world, but they don't see it worth a return. You don't have to like that decision, but I actually am happy that they are trying to at least give us these tidbits instead. They could have just let the world disappear completely like they did with Golgothra.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
We had BFZ then SOI, two returning, now with Kaladesh and Amonkhet, I expect a returning then a new.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
You answered it yourself, those things just got old. We can't expect the game to still look like Alpha after decades of existence, even if tapping White Knights against your opponent's Demonic Hordes sounds cool.
Personally though, I think the current settings with the theme park worlds are more fun. Maybe we'll get an Arthurian world or something like that in the future, who knows? But I guess even that would have a twist in which Gideon has an incestuous relationship with his half-sister and gets killed by his illegitimate son.
OG Innistrad wasn't even close to accurate, it was a Hodge podge of sources and inspirations themed on gothic horror from across the century but people GOT IT.
Of course the Skaabs were themed on the dumb hulking brute of image of the monster from pop culture, no ***** Delver was Jeff Goldblum Fly, of course the Vampire's were Trueblood/Ann Rice/The Masquerade style descendent pretty boys instesd of Nosferatus, the whole point of flavor is to use tropes and genres your audience knows to enhance the play and grokability of the game.
Yeah Kamigawa was super accurate shinto but that is a very ineffective flavor to use becasue for most people its no different from random momsters and words.
And not being random monsters and words deceats the whole idea of a top down set.
It may as well been Kithkin . A flavor set who'se flavor doesnt work has failed fundamentally as a premise. It's like making your stop signs all in brail.
Becasue fantasy overall has milked that Tolkien High Fantasy mideveil times shtick pretty hard and the game and genre is far broader than that.
There are dozens and dozens of differnt lesser knowm themes you can do before going to generic fanatsy land.
Actually that could still be done even.
Maro said the average is one old to one new
Mirrodin 2/ Innistrad
Ravnica 2/Theros
Tarkir/Zendikar 2
Innistrad 2/Kaladesh
Amonkhet/Atlazan
Would just mean two returns back to back afterwards to make even. Like Ravnica 3-Theros (tho maybe thats to simialr to before) Ravnica 3-Dominaria perhaps?
W
The japanese culture and shinto is alive and still practised in modern times. Just how Wizards didn't go bollywood with Kaladesh they will not go anime with Kamigawa 2.0. They will treat it with the same respect and dignity as other cultures that are still around and not reduce it to a collection of crude stereotypes. Your worries are unfounded and, quite frankly, paranoid.
As an aside a thing that is often mentioned both outside as well as INSIDE the "Kamiwaga crowd" is how everyone loved the Samurais and Ninjas and wants them to return. These are well-known parts of japanese history and culture without being trite clichés. This is the kind of thing we will see. Popular, but also authentic aspects of japanese culture and history.