By giving actual hexproof (and not whatever Vines of Vastwood does), not dodging Spellskite would have been fine too. "Oh your spellskite has hexproof now? How cute. Try to redirect this become Immense and this Distortion Strike now."
"you control"
Spellskite can't redirect it cause the limitations of the card makes Spellskite an invalid target.
Yeah, I agree that infect did not need another weapon, and make no mistake, the tiny clause "you control" was aimed directly at infect vs spellskite. Infect is already a very good, tier 1 deck. That said, could they find room in their 75 for this card? Maybe a replacement for apostle's blessing.
I wonder if this is R&D's message that either Mutagenic Growth or Become Immense is going to get banned in Modern, and this is the replacement for Infect decks.
I'm mildly afraid of this myself actually.
That said, it's not like Infect and Death's Shadow Zoo has occupied more than 2 spots total in a top 8 with any kind of consistency, so a ban seems premature to me.
Except Infect is one of the top decks in the format, has been for a long time, and regularly violates the Turn 4 rule.
That is true. mutagenic growth I think would make the most sense and the seems the most likely to make a deck violate that turn 4 rule. If you have 3 in hand, you have become immense for 6 life. Become immense needs work to set up.
Still, I would not at all be shocked to see nothing banned.
Maybe this card is a nod to r/g aggro but the "you control" is in their only for one creature: spellskite...hey, maybe we're getting a spellskite reprint(or functional) in Kaladesh
I wonder if this is R&D's message that either Mutagenic Growth or Become Immense is going to get banned in Modern, and this is the replacement for Infect decks.
I'm mildly afraid of this myself actually.
That said, it's not like Infect and Death's Shadow Zoo has occupied more than 2 spots total in a top 8 with any kind of consistency, so a ban seems premature to me.
Except Infect is one of the top decks in the format, has been for a long time, and regularly violates the Turn 4 rule.
Infect does not consistently violate the turn 4 rule(and sure as hell it does not in a harmful way). Anyone who says so, has just not playing with the deck or is completely ignorant about what's he is speaking. Infect can kill on turn 3, but it may kill on turn 3 against non interactive decks. If you play an interactive deck, a Thougthseize, a Lightning Bolt, a Path To Exile, a Disfigure, a FREAKING Gut Shot makes sure you just lost the turn 3 kill, because this means you will probably waste your resources to not get annihilated. And a second bolt may be brutal, at least to slow them down so much. This is not a 6/6 trample haster with double strike that wins the game and does not care about bolt/path.
Infect is super safe, as Sam Stoddart said:
Sam Stoddart: I'm not saying that Infect can't get a quick win early, but that a deck with Lightning Bolts, Path, or Dismember has real game against it. It has ways to fight back. There is interaction.
and
Sam Stoddart(recently) saying Infect is safe: On the turn 4 rule, a lot of it comes down to how interactable it is. Infect, for example, can kill on turn 2 with a god draw, but it can still lose to a Path to Exile. Basically, people are naturally running cards that can interact with that deck, while we don't require that all decks have main deck answers to Storm. We don't have a drop-dead rule on win percentages, but Grishoalbrand hasn't put up the kind of results for us to believe it is consistent enough to be a problem.
WOTC messaged nothing. This card seems strong, but I am unsure as to whether Infect will prefer this over Apostle's Blessing. I have killed so many times with pro-white through Lingering Souls, just enough to hugely admire the card. Concerning Vines Of Vastwood, it's an auto 4 I believe. But then again, if it would be so strong at least Ranger's Guile would seen some play at Infect decklists here and there. I know that +1/+1 makes a difference.
Maybe 1 copy should go into Infect's 75. Maybe yes. Maybe not.
Well said.
As others have said with regard to comparing this to Guile: in Infect we're effectively dealing double damage, so it's not fair to say it's +1/+1 over Guile. In practice it's a +2/+1 and hexproof spell vs a +4/+2 hexproof spell.
I'm going to try at least 2, but that's because my meta is very hostile towards Infect. I'll likely jam a full playset in if I can though, even if that means dumping a Mutagenic Growth to support it since I end up siding that out against Bolt decks frequently.
Elegant and powerful, this is how hexproof should be used! When built into creatures it can be hard to balance and create some stale game play, both are avoided when tacked onto well costed pump and utility spells.
I dunno: +2/+2 and hexproof is splitting the difference between "unkicked Vines of Vastwood" and "kicked Vines". The big difference being that Vines doesn't actually grant hexproof, so you can also use it to counter your opponent's bounces and +1/+1 counters and auras and Naya souls and...
Coding hexproof means that no new cards will have that power.
In any case, you should expect unkicked Vines would be weaker than this. It just happens that Vines is really, really good.
wrt: hexproof and Spellskite, redirect effects require the target be legal. The target can become illegal after the redirect effect resolves. And you can give a Spellskite a Darksteel Plate and then go off redirecting Doom Blades, Bolts, and Nature's Claims to it. But you can't redirect a Go for the Throat to Spellskite, and you can't give Spellskite hexproof and then redirect an opponent's spell to it.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I wonder if this is R&D's message that either Mutagenic Growth or Become Immense is going to get banned in Modern, and this is the replacement for Infect decks.
I'm mildly afraid of this myself actually.
That said, it's not like Infect and Death's Shadow Zoo has occupied more than 2 spots total in a top 8 with any kind of consistency, so a ban seems premature to me.
Except Infect is one of the top decks in the format, has been for a long time, and regularly violates the Turn 4 rule.
Infect does not consistently violate the turn 4 rule(and sure as hell it does not in a harmful way). Anyone who says so, has just not playing with the deck or is completely ignorant about what's he is speaking. Infect can kill on turn 3, but it may kill on turn 3 against non interactive decks. If you play an interactive deck, a Thougthseize, a Lightning Bolt, a Path To Exile, a Disfigure, a FREAKING Gut Shot makes sure you just lost the turn 3 kill, because this means you will probably waste your resources to not get annihilated. And a second bolt may be brutal, at least to slow them down so much. This is not a 6/6 trample haster with double strike that wins the game and does not care about bolt/path.
Infect is super safe, as Sam Stoddart said:
Sam Stoddart: I'm not saying that Infect can't get a quick win early, but that a deck with Lightning Bolts, Path, or Dismember has real game against it. It has ways to fight back. There is interaction.
and
Sam Stoddart(recently) saying Infect is safe: On the turn 4 rule, a lot of it comes down to how interactable it is. Infect, for example, can kill on turn 2 with a god draw, but it can still lose to a Path to Exile. Basically, people are naturally running cards that can interact with that deck, while we don't require that all decks have main deck answers to Storm. We don't have a drop-dead rule on win percentages, but Grishoalbrand hasn't put up the kind of results for us to believe it is consistent enough to be a problem.
WOTC messaged nothing. This card seems strong, but I am unsure as to whether Infect will prefer this over Apostle's Blessing. I have killed so many times with pro-white through Lingering Souls, just enough to hugely admire the card. Concerning Vines Of Vastwood, it's an auto 4 I believe. But then again, if it would be so strong at least Ranger's Guile would seen some play at Infect decklists here and there. I know that +1/+1 makes a difference.
Maybe 1 copy should go into Infect's 75. Maybe yes. Maybe not.
Multiple Turn 2 wins ON CAMERA at big events. I guess those large event players are just playing solitaire decks, like Delver and Abzan (two of the decks that lost on Turn 2 on camera).
I have to note those wins were all Game One. Did you decide to mulligan a hand that had a lightning bolt but only 2 lands? Guess you go ahead and die.
The Abzan one is my favorite:
Infect Turn 1: Misty Rainforest, break for Breeding Pool, Glistener Elf, go.
Abzan Turn 1: G/W Fetch, go.
Infect Turn 2: Forest. Groundswell, Might of Old Krosa, Mutagenic Growth, swing.
Abzan: Break Fetch for Temple Garden. Path To Exile Glistener Elf
Infect: Apostle's Blessing, white.
Yes, that required a specific set of cards. Know what else did? WINNING TURN 2 WITH AMULET BLOOM!!!!!!!
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Infect Turn 1: Misty Rainforest, break for Breeding Pool, Glistener Elf, go.
Abzan Turn 1: G/W Fetch, go.
Infect Turn 2: Forest. Groundswell, Might of Old Krosa, Mutagenic Growth, swing.
Abzan: Break Fetch for Temple Garden. Path To Exile Glistener Elf
Infect: Apostle's Blessing, white.
Yes, that required a specific set of cards. Know what else did? WINNING TURN 2 WITH AMULET BLOOM!!!!!!!
This is hilarious. This is the most funny and out of context post I have ever seen
Too many questions for such a wrong and stupid post.
1)So, Turn 2 Infect plays Groundswell(G) + Might Of Old Krosa(G)+Apostle's Blessing(1). Let me do the math you cannot do by yourself: 1+1+1=3! We know this from elementary school. So, turn 2 the Infect deck has 3 mana? It seems that we re into Simian Spirit Guide in Infect now.
2) Why did not Abzan Midrange Path To Exile on his turn? Because this is the right play and if he does, he wins the game, because there are no more Infecters.
3) Do you realize the difference between against a Primeval Titan that is UNBOLTABLE and if you Path To Exile him he just goes on by chaining another one while you have to DRAW another Infecter? Titan comes in, bring Tolaria West + Simic Growth Chamber, bounce Tolaria West build from there.
4) Do you know in what forum you are into? You might want to whine about Bloom in the banlist discussion thread.
5) Do you realize Sam Stoddart said Infect is fine 1 month ago?
I am sitting in front of my screen laughing at how wrong and bad written a post might be. You win the award of the worst one ever.
Sam Stoddart(recently) saying Infect is safe: On the turn 4 rule, a lot of it comes down to how interactable it is. Infect, for example, can kill on turn 2 with a god draw, but it can still lose to a Path to Exile. Basically, people are naturally running cards that can interact with that deck, while we don't require that all decks have main deck answers to Storm. We don't have a drop-dead rule on win percentages, but Grishoalbrand hasn't put up the kind of results for us to believe it is consistent enough to be a problem.
My bad. I misremembered that game. I will have to find the video again for what happened.
But it doesn't matter. Discussing infect with you is like discussing Twin with Cfusion. You have an extreme obvious bias towards it, and will not acknowledge that Infect is one of the cancers of the Modern format.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Infect Turn 1: Misty Rainforest, break for Breeding Pool, Glistener Elf, go.
Abzan Turn 1: G/W Fetch, go.
Infect Turn 2: Forest. Groundswell, Might of Old Krosa, Mutagenic Growth, swing.
Abzan: Break Fetch for Temple Garden. Path To Exile Glistener Elf
Infect: Apostle's Blessing, white.
Yes, that required a specific set of cards. Know what else did? WINNING TURN 2 WITH AMULET BLOOM!!!!!!!
This is hilarious. This is the most funny and out of context post I have ever seen
Too many questions for such a wrong and stupid post.
1)So, Turn 2 Infect plays Groundswell(G) + Might Of Old Krosa(G)+Apostle's Blessing(1). Let me do the math you cannot do by yourself: 1+1+1=3! We know this from elementary school. So, turn 2 the Infect deck has 3 mana? It seems that we re into Simian Spirit Guide in Infect now.
2) Why did not Abzan Midrange Path To Exile on his turn? Because this is the right play and if he does, he wins the game, because there are no more Infecters.
3) Do you realize the difference between against a Primeval Titan that is UNBOLTABLE and if you Path To Exile him he just goes on by chaining another one while you have to DRAW another Infecter? Titan comes in, bring Tolaria West + Simic Growth Chamber, bounce Tolaria West build from there.
4) Do you know in what forum you are into? You might want to whine about Bloom in the banlist discussion thread.
5) Do you realize Sam Stoddart said Infect is fine 1 month ago?
I am sitting in front of my screen laughing at how wrong and bad written a post might be. You win the award of the worst one ever.
Sam Stoddart(recently) saying Infect is safe: On the turn 4 rule, a lot of it comes down to how interactable it is. Infect, for example, can kill on turn 2 with a god draw, but it can still lose to a Path to Exile. Basically, people are naturally running cards that can interact with that deck, while we don't require that all decks have main deck answers to Storm. We don't have a drop-dead rule on win percentages, but Grishoalbrand hasn't put up the kind of results for us to believe it is consistent enough to be a problem.
My bad. I misremembered that game. I will have to find the video again for what happened.
But it doesn't matter. Discussing infect with you is like discussing Twin with Cfusion. You have an extreme obvious bias towards it, and will not acknowledge that Infect is one of the cancers of the Modern format.
Well, I played Bloom and lost a lot of money out of its banning. I used to think Infect one bad deck for the format(cancer is a word that's plain wrong). But after picking it up and realizing it does not violate the turn 4 rule as I am pretty sure you will find out if you do yourself, I changed my mind and even apologized to a friend for asking BI to be banned.
Infect is a nice thing to have around, because it chased Trons/Living Ends/Ad Nauseams and all the uninteractive decks of the format, while losing to the fair ones and promoting interaction. Promoting Lightning bolts etc.
I am sorry for going out to you like this but this was a huge mistake you made. I am no cfusion and I will never be, I want to think. If you want, we can take this to the BL discussion thread.
I will admit I have an issue with infect. I don't think "policing" decks should be "Kill them on Turn 2". If those decks are so degenerate that you have to win on your second turn to hold them in check, then those decks need to be addressed. I've seen 4 infect turn 2 or 3 kills on Camera at SCG events, or around a third of the time I see the decks on camera at all. Two of those were against Tron. One against Delver. One against Abzan (that I can't seem to find. I believe Brad Nelson was on Infect). But I don't think a deck should get a free pass on the Turn 4 rule just because it hurts degenerate decks.
As for Titan, I sold all my pieces (about a week before the ban since even I knew it was coming at that point). I stopped caring about that deck. You're the one who brought it up.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
This is not the thread for banlist discussion, take it to the modern subforum. Any posts about this beyond this point will be infracted.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Awesome! I was considering playing Woodcutter's Grit in Standard just for the hexproof. So glad we got a cheaper one (for Standard - I know Vines of the Vastwood is a thing)
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"you control"
Spellskite can't redirect it cause the limitations of the card makes Spellskite an invalid target.
Yeah, I agree that infect did not need another weapon, and make no mistake, the tiny clause "you control" was aimed directly at infect vs spellskite. Infect is already a very good, tier 1 deck. That said, could they find room in their 75 for this card? Maybe a replacement for apostle's blessing.
Pauper Infect?
That is true. mutagenic growth I think would make the most sense and the seems the most likely to make a deck violate that turn 4 rule. If you have 3 in hand, you have become immense for 6 life. Become immense needs work to set up.
Still, I would not at all be shocked to see nothing banned.
Maybe this card is a nod to r/g aggro but the "you control" is in their only for one creature: spellskite...hey, maybe we're getting a spellskite reprint(or functional) in Kaladesh
Well said.
As others have said with regard to comparing this to Guile: in Infect we're effectively dealing double damage, so it's not fair to say it's +1/+1 over Guile. In practice it's a +2/+1 and hexproof spell vs a +4/+2 hexproof spell.
I'm going to try at least 2, but that's because my meta is very hostile towards Infect. I'll likely jam a full playset in if I can though, even if that means dumping a Mutagenic Growth to support it since I end up siding that out against Bolt decks frequently.
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I dunno: +2/+2 and hexproof is splitting the difference between "unkicked Vines of Vastwood" and "kicked Vines". The big difference being that Vines doesn't actually grant hexproof, so you can also use it to counter your opponent's bounces and +1/+1 counters and auras and Naya souls and...
Coding hexproof means that no new cards will have that power.
In any case, you should expect unkicked Vines would be weaker than this. It just happens that Vines is really, really good.
wrt: hexproof and Spellskite, redirect effects require the target be legal. The target can become illegal after the redirect effect resolves. And you can give a Spellskite a Darksteel Plate and then go off redirecting Doom Blades, Bolts, and Nature's Claims to it. But you can't redirect a Go for the Throat to Spellskite, and you can't give Spellskite hexproof and then redirect an opponent's spell to it.
On phasing:
Multiple Turn 2 wins ON CAMERA at big events. I guess those large event players are just playing solitaire decks, like Delver and Abzan (two of the decks that lost on Turn 2 on camera).
I have to note those wins were all Game One. Did you decide to mulligan a hand that had a lightning bolt but only 2 lands? Guess you go ahead and die.
The Abzan one is my favorite:
Infect Turn 1: Misty Rainforest, break for Breeding Pool, Glistener Elf, go.
Abzan Turn 1: G/W Fetch, go.
Infect Turn 2: Forest. Groundswell, Might of Old Krosa, Mutagenic Growth, swing.
Abzan: Break Fetch for Temple Garden. Path To Exile Glistener Elf
Infect: Apostle's Blessing, white.
Yes, that required a specific set of cards. Know what else did? WINNING TURN 2 WITH AMULET BLOOM!!!!!!!
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
My bad. I misremembered that game. I will have to find the video again for what happened.
But it doesn't matter. Discussing infect with you is like discussing Twin with Cfusion. You have an extreme obvious bias towards it, and will not acknowledge that Infect is one of the cancers of the Modern format.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I will admit I have an issue with infect. I don't think "policing" decks should be "Kill them on Turn 2". If those decks are so degenerate that you have to win on your second turn to hold them in check, then those decks need to be addressed. I've seen 4 infect turn 2 or 3 kills on Camera at SCG events, or around a third of the time I see the decks on camera at all. Two of those were against Tron. One against Delver. One against Abzan (that I can't seem to find. I believe Brad Nelson was on Infect). But I don't think a deck should get a free pass on the Turn 4 rule just because it hurts degenerate decks.
As for Titan, I sold all my pieces (about a week before the ban since even I knew it was coming at that point). I stopped caring about that deck. You're the one who brought it up.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.