She's at 30, not bad. I think Ob Nixilis was at 30 when he was spoiled. The new Sorin was at around 35. Now they're both 12 and under. She needs a deck to be good in, g/b is probably that home since the zombies aren't going anywhere.
She will fit perfectly in grixis control. Especially in a control deck.
Both modern and standard. Getting back goblin dark dwellers is so busted.
Modern has Snapcaster and the goblin
Plus both have Kalitas
her price is gonna sky rocket.
You don't want to run this card over Liliana of the Veil in any modern deck.
She's at 30, not bad. I think Ob Nixilis was at 30 when he was spoiled. The new Sorin was at around 35. Now they're both 12 and under. She needs a deck to be good in, g/b is probably that home since the zombies aren't going anywhere.
She will fit perfectly in grixis control. Especially in a control deck.
Both modern and standard. Getting back goblin dark dwellers is so busted.
Modern has Snapcaster and the goblin
Plus both have Kalitas
her price is gonna sky rocket.
You don't want to run this card over Liliana of the Veil in any modern deck.
I have ran two of her in my grixis and her devlve does help with Tasigur, the Golden Fang
But this new one is getting me back graveyard creatures...
Like I said goblin dark dweller and Snapcaster are so powerful. Play again is like a give me more power out of the graveyard.
Except modern decks with Islands in them. New Lilly plays much better with Snapcaster and counter-magic.
One interaction I see coming up is of how tough a position your opponent is in if you have a flash creature in the yard. They can either play their creature now only to have it invalidated (or killed) by Lilly, or you get to restock a flash threat and pass with counter mana available.
People are way under estimating her. The bottom line is that most of the time, you are going to untap with her after you cast her. Eventually she can draw you cards or pigeonhole your opponent.what more do you want from 3 mana?
I don't understand why people think the ultimate requires additional main deck support. 0 plus 2 is still 2, and it triggers every end step. Unless your opponent has a reliable way to keep dispatching creatures every turn or create blockers, that emblem will win you the game.
I feel like she's a better MBC walker than anything else. I feel like she can hang back and weaken your opponent's board and eventually win you the game via her emblem.
oath triggers every end step, walker emblem triggers on yours. But point is still there, an extra minimum 4 power each turn is a lot.
The reason (in response to other posts in thread, not yours) for -2/-1 is because weakness.
She is nice with Kalitas. Makes him more survivable when attacking, then brings him back. There's just so few good black creatures right now, and she needs creature decks. Anyhoo, I like her.
Except modern decks with Islands in them. New Lilly plays much better with Snapcaster and counter-magic.
One interaction I see coming up is of how tough a position your opponent is in if you have a flash creature in the yard. They can either play their creature now only to have it invalidated (or killed) by Lilly, or you get to restock a flash threat and pass with counter mana available.
People are way under estimating her. The bottom line is that most of the time, you are going to untap with her after you cast her. Eventually she can draw you cards or pigeonhole your opponent.what more do you want from 3 mana?
I'll take your word for it, I only play Jund in modern. Her abilities are soooo narrow and they do little to nothing against combo and control.
Except modern decks with Islands in them. New Lilly plays much better with Snapcaster and counter-magic.
One interaction I see coming up is of how tough a position your opponent is in if you have a flash creature in the yard. They can either play their creature now only to have it invalidated (or killed) by Lilly, or you get to restock a flash threat and pass with counter mana available.
People are way under estimating her. The bottom line is that most of the time, you are going to untap with her after you cast her. Eventually she can draw you cards or pigeonhole your opponent.what more do you want from 3 mana?
I'll take your word for it, I only play Jund in modern. Her abilities are soooo narrow and they do little to nothing against combo and control.
Against, combo, sure new Liliana will be a bust. But control? You don't think returning 'goyfs and dark confidants every other turn isn't useful? Unless they're exiled of course...
Except modern decks with Islands in them. New Lilly plays much better with Snapcaster and counter-magic.
One interaction I see coming up is of how tough a position your opponent is in if you have a flash creature in the yard. They can either play their creature now only to have it invalidated (or killed) by Lilly, or you get to restock a flash threat and pass with counter mana available.
People are way under estimating her. The bottom line is that most of the time, you are going to untap with her after you cast her. Eventually she can draw you cards or pigeonhole your opponent.what more do you want from 3 mana?
I'll take your word for it, I only play Jund in modern. Her abilities are soooo narrow and they do little to nothing against combo and control.
Against, combo, sure new Liliana will be a bust. But control? You don't think returning 'goyfs and dark confidants every other turn isn't useful? Unless they're exiled of course...
You can only minus 2 once when she is played. It would be impossible to do that every turn. I think most of you people need to go back and read the card again.
Except modern decks with Islands in them. New Lilly plays much better with Snapcaster and counter-magic.
One interaction I see coming up is of how tough a position your opponent is in if you have a flash creature in the yard. They can either play their creature now only to have it invalidated (or killed) by Lilly, or you get to restock a flash threat and pass with counter mana available.
People are way under estimating her. The bottom line is that most of the time, you are going to untap with her after you cast her. Eventually she can draw you cards or pigeonhole your opponent.what more do you want from 3 mana?
I'll take your word for it, I only play Jund in modern. Her abilities are soooo narrow and they do little to nothing against combo and control.
Against, combo, sure new Liliana will be a bust. But control? You don't think returning 'goyfs and dark confidants every other turn isn't useful? Unless they're exiled of course...
You can only minus 2 once when she is played. It would be impossible to do that every turn. I think most of you people need to go back and read the card again.
[Emphasis in bold mine]
I did say every other turn in my first post without editing it. There's no need to insult others - especially when you misread what other people are typing.
But to Liliana, every other turn might still be powerful depending on the game state. If both decks are in top deck mode, a raise dead the next turn might swing the game around. Of course, that's a lot of "what if?" so new Liliana might not be modern material, but she'll probably be a staple in Standard - if not this one, then after rotation.
Are people debating over whether the new liliana is good? She's insane, end of story. CMC 3 is really insane. Her +1 is better than a 4 mana walkers +1 in jace, architect of thought. Her -2 is great selfmill and relevant card advantage. I couldn't care less about what the ultimate does, as that isn't what makes or breaks a walker. Not every ultimate is going to be jace, the mind sculptor's ultimate where you straightup win the game without effort typically. If this card is sticking around enough to be able to ultimate you should likely be winning.
As for modern, obviously the natural comparison is to her other Innistrad counterpart despite the only big similarity is the casting cost of 1BB and both having a liliana subtype. Her +1 can be better than LotV's -2 and when it is you are typically crushing the opposition. Her -2 can be much better than LotV's -2 if you need a blocker for a lot of weenie type creatures or LotV's +1 if both are in topdeck mode you can just recur creatures over and over to break the stalemate. Selfmill could be relevant too. Dream is naturally milling lingering souls to flashback or narcomoeba in a weird dredge shell.
In legacy it's hard to justify this card over LotV because of the existence of fatties being cheated in for 2U, 1B, etc. etc. when the +1 isn't going to do the most in a game and recurring creatures, while nice, does nothing to hinder an emrakul/griselbrand typically.
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Except modern decks with Islands in them. New Lilly plays much better with Snapcaster and counter-magic.
One interaction I see coming up is of how tough a position your opponent is in if you have a flash creature in the yard. They can either play their creature now only to have it invalidated (or killed) by Lilly, or you get to restock a flash threat and pass with counter mana available.
People are way under estimating her. The bottom line is that most of the time, you are going to untap with her after you cast her. Eventually she can draw you cards or pigeonhole your opponent.what more do you want from 3 mana?
Grabbing a killed Goblin Dark Dweller then playing it and flashing back Ancestral Vision and drawing three cards
While her level of "broken-ness" is up for debate, I don't get those thinking she is bad. Her first two abilities are very similar (or arguably better) than JVP's first two abilities: neuter (or kill) a creature each turn, and then re-use (bring back) a creature every second turn.
I think Last Hope is going to see play in Modern. Wrecks infect and Affinity, neuters Kird Apea s and Goblin Guides all while threatening against Control to win the game going long.
Sure it doesnt disrupt, but that is why LotV exists. Also Thoughtseize and company do jusy fine.
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You don't want to run this card over Liliana of the Veil in any modern deck.
I have ran two of her in my grixis and her devlve does help with Tasigur, the Golden Fang
But this new one is getting me back graveyard creatures...
Like I said goblin dark dweller and Snapcaster are so powerful. Play again is like a give me more power out of the graveyard.
One interaction I see coming up is of how tough a position your opponent is in if you have a flash creature in the yard. They can either play their creature now only to have it invalidated (or killed) by Lilly, or you get to restock a flash threat and pass with counter mana available.
People are way under estimating her. The bottom line is that most of the time, you are going to untap with her after you cast her. Eventually she can draw you cards or pigeonhole your opponent.what more do you want from 3 mana?
The reason (in response to other posts in thread, not yours) for -2/-1 is because weakness.
She is nice with Kalitas. Makes him more survivable when attacking, then brings him back. There's just so few good black creatures right now, and she needs creature decks. Anyhoo, I like her.
I'll take your word for it, I only play Jund in modern. Her abilities are soooo narrow and they do little to nothing against combo and control.
Against, combo, sure new Liliana will be a bust. But control? You don't think returning 'goyfs and dark confidants every other turn isn't useful? Unless they're exiled of course...
You can only minus 2 once when she is played. It would be impossible to do that every turn. I think most of you people need to go back and read the card again.
[Emphasis in bold mine]
I did say every other turn in my first post without editing it. There's no need to insult others - especially when you misread what other people are typing.
But to Liliana, every other turn might still be powerful depending on the game state. If both decks are in top deck mode, a raise dead the next turn might swing the game around. Of course, that's a lot of "what if?" so new Liliana might not be modern material, but she'll probably be a staple in Standard - if not this one, then after rotation.
As for modern, obviously the natural comparison is to her other Innistrad counterpart despite the only big similarity is the casting cost of 1BB and both having a liliana subtype. Her +1 can be better than LotV's -2 and when it is you are typically crushing the opposition. Her -2 can be much better than LotV's -2 if you need a blocker for a lot of weenie type creatures or LotV's +1 if both are in topdeck mode you can just recur creatures over and over to break the stalemate. Selfmill could be relevant too. Dream is naturally milling lingering souls to flashback or narcomoeba in a weird dredge shell.
In legacy it's hard to justify this card over LotV because of the existence of fatties being cheated in for 2U, 1B, etc. etc. when the +1 isn't going to do the most in a game and recurring creatures, while nice, does nothing to hinder an emrakul/griselbrand typically.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Grabbing a killed Goblin Dark Dweller then playing it and flashing back Ancestral Vision and drawing three cards
While I don't find the idea of a gatewatch particulary interesting I hope we'll get Karn's oath some day.
Sure it doesnt disrupt, but that is why LotV exists. Also Thoughtseize and company do jusy fine.