While this Liliana is obviously worse than Liliana of the Veil was, it is still a fine card. Repeatable removal (even though it is weak removal) and graveyard recursion on a 3 mana planeswalker with a high starting loyalty is more than enough to make this card playable. It still won't see play beyond Standard though because LotV is so much more powerful than it.
Yeah I wasn't expecting LOTV at all and nor did I want her to be reprinted (because that would be insane in standard) but I would expect the card for Liliana to be more exciting than this when she is supposedly Innistrad's "Last Hope". I mean, that art and her trailer definitely didn't make it look like all her +1 did was weaken(and maybe kill) a guy and all those zombies definitely look like a lot more than the 2 her ultimate is going to give you if you aren't playing a Zombie themed deck.
Once again Wizards of the Coast will never reprint a PW in a story-based set (like the ones available for Standard) unless time travel will be a thing because PW's are still pictures of exactly how that PW felt in that moment.
And the ultimate will make an insane amount of tokens.
Turn 1: 2
Turn 2: 4 = 6
Turn 3: 8 = 14
These Numbers are only true if you don't lose a Zombie and if you don't already control one. If you control a Zombie the Numbers are instead:
Turn 1: 3
Turn 2: 5 = 8
Turn 3: 10 = 18
Yes, the ultimate will rapidly get out of hand. Especially in a good zombie deck, which should have a couple ghouls on the board already.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Y'know, the more I think about it the worse her ult really is.
Compare it to Koth of the Hammer. That builds fast, and allows you to utterly dominate when you get it online.
She would have been a lot better if her ult was -6 or if she started with loyalty 4 and her ult gave X = one plus your Zombie count instead of two. Your exponential increase would be smaller, but that's kinda arbitrary.
The power is more in the inevitability it should present rather than the straight-up value. And oddly the accent on value here waters the ability down by pushing up its cost.
Compare her with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. They climb at the same rate and I would much rather draw a bunch of cards and gain life than get a slow-working emblem.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Her +1 is really relevant in any meta. In a Standard dominated by Reflector Mages, Sylvan Advocates, and Gideon tokens its even more applicable than it usually would be.
The -2 is, literally, CA. Its hard to ask for more than that.
Ultimate is ultimate. Its fine.
I strongly encourage anyone being overly critical of Lilly's current iteration to go back and re-read the threads on LotV, Domri Rade, and Nissa. Then ask yourself if you *really* wanna be 'that guy.'
The +1 can blank. How is that relevant for a pw that starts at 3 loyalty?
The -2 is only card advantage if you hit a creature. Realistically, you won't have a creature in the yard the first few turns, so you can't even use the -2 except for mill(which is really bad).
The ultimate costs 7 and is underpowered. Mass tokens don't always end the game and this one needs several turns past the ultimate to make them.
It's funny how you say to not be "that guy". Well judging from those past threads, it seems that "that guy" is the general consensus of mtgs. It looks like the general consensus on this card is positive, so what are the odds that all of you are wrong about this card and it ends up being terrible
Your evaluation is different than mine. No harm in that because I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. There will always be a 'glass is half full' camp and a 'glass is half empty' camp and everyone can shape their discussion to validate their stance. All I wanted to do was remind folks that regardless of whether they're a half empty or half full kinda person, the one thing that isn't debatable is the fact that there's a glass with water. In this case, said glass is a planeswalker with three mana worth of water in it. History tells us that is an inherently strong combination, regardless of how we feel about it at face value.
So, what are the odds of us being wrong and its terrible? Well, its certainly a non-zero amount. However, once again, history has shown us that every 3CMC planeswalker ever printed has seen substantial constructed play. I like those odds and I like learning from history instead of repeating past mistakes. But that's just me. To each their own, good sir.
I dunno, I'm glad she's a bit different Lili than we are used to. She may see time to shine... And I'll gladly buy into a plays set in case zombies can become a thing in standard
These are Innistrad Zombies. It wouldn't really fit them to have haste. You can be glad they don't enter the battlefield tapped...
Black is arguably secondary in haste (having over 100 cards that have or grant it) and I've never seen a rule, written or otherwise, that states that Innistrad's zombies specifically can't have it. I'm simply advocating for this planeswalker ultimate to be exciting and attractive (a major goal for ultimates, which are mostly made for casual play) and not feel like the planeswalker performing the ultimate is a turtle.[/quote]
When Wizards were doing the original Innistrad, they specifically wanted to be resonant, to make cards work as people expect to. Zombies, at least the black ones, have as common tropes that they are slow and that there is a lot of them. This is the reason why haste wouldn't fit them, and also the reason why so many of them enters the battlefield tapped, which doesn't usually happen on other planes -- it's another mechanical device to express the slowness.
I'm seeing a problem with sets following story lines we will never get good reprints and what's worst there is no core set anymore to print cards out of story lines.
Lili is pretty meh but her oath is sweet. 3 mana forced sac is reasonable, although less so at sorcery speed. added on is built in walker protection. Lili might see play in standard, but her -2 is really weak. It requires you to have a high creature count and for 1 to be in your graveyard. The +1 is really good especially on a 3 mana walker but, I don't see her making the cut in a lot of decks. This is probably the first 3 mana walker that I've said this about. I think her modern chances are slightly higher simply because the -2 gets better. Seems playable in grixis control.
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I get that it's a good card, but playing zombies I don't want creatures from my graveyard to my hand, I need them on the battlefield. It screws up Relentless Dead and Diregraf Colossus as far as I'm concerned. It's more for Superfriends than Reanimator.
I think the +1 should have been the graveyard filler. Graveyard should be about choice. As it stands, it's an ultimate that goes down to Flaying Tendrils. I had hoped for more...
Liliana will pre order high but its a $7-8 dollar planeswalker at best this isn't as good as Nissa . I think the set is a 4/10 so far but more cards coming.
Mediocre is a good word to describe the card. When you look at her abilities you kind of have to ask yourself if you'd play them if they were cards. Her first ability is low impact, her second ability is like Corpse Churn only worse, and her third ability is similar to Endless Ranks of the Dead but slightly better. Like someone else pointed out, you have to have creatures in your gy for her second ability to be useful like her third ability in which you need a few zombies on the board to gain any real benefit.
I'm tired of playing Jund in modern and standard is g/w hell.
Really wish they had kept the same artist for both cards. I love the art of her Oath. She is elegant and in commander of what she is doing. Her 'walker art is... i don't really know how to explain it, but i don't like it nearly as much as i like her Oath art.
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Mark my words, the Year of Eldrazi will not be the last we see of them.
I love the new lili. She's quite strong in a modern Grixis shell, and quite strong in any of the GB decks in standard. Definitely going to be investing in some when they're nice and low at the prerelease.
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Standard
Meh
Modern BUWEsper ControlWUB BRUGrixis DelverURB WRBGKiki ChordGBRW WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW BRGJundGRB
These are Innistrad Zombies. It wouldn't really fit them to have haste. You can be glad they don't enter the battlefield tapped...
Black is arguably secondary in haste (having over 100 cards that have or grant it) and I've never seen a rule, written or otherwise, that states that Innistrad's zombies specifically can't have it. I'm simply advocating for this planeswalker ultimate to be exciting and attractive (a major goal for ultimates, which are mostly made for casual play) and not feel like the planeswalker performing the ultimate is a turtle.
The magic access video that debuted emrakul literally had liliana summoning zombies who then proceeded to sprint extremely quickly. I would say that alone could allow for haste to work.
Clearly, you want to use Oath of Liliana on turn 3 then Liliana herself on turn 4 followed by Indulgent Aristocrat, Sanitarium Skeleton, or ideally Shambling Goblin. Not only is the last creature a zombie, but you will get another 2/2 zombie at the beginning of your end step and the shambler can chump-block whatever got hit by the -2/-1 ability (presuming you don't block with the 2/2 instead). In any event, by the end of your fourth turn you have partially hosed an opponent's creature (or killed it, if it happened to be x/1) and you have two zombie blockers--there is no real downside here. If your opponent manages to swarm a bunch of creatures onto the field their next turn that is not a problem--either Languish next round or Flaying Tendrils to get rid of the cheap chumps then Relentless Dead...or Fleshbag Marauder...or no sweepers but Diregraf Colossus followed by Wailing Ghoul to net another 2/2 zombie.
This Liliana really isn't bad unless you are hanging on to the past. I am certain that in Modern or Legacy you would want Liliana of the Veil, of course, since forcing the sacrifice of permanents is significantly more powerful.
Pretty underwhelming. The +1 is only good early, the -2 needs help to be good, and the -7 is way too expensive for what it is. The +1 could have easily been -1/-2 to be like a reverse Unholy Strength. The -2 shouldn't have the discard clause at that cost. And the ult should be -5 since it's so narrow and slow.
I really do like Liliana, the Last Hope. That ultimate ability is just simply delicious as I was thinking of a UB or U/B/x zombie deck just the other day because of Gisa and Geralf. Also the other abilities aren't half bad at all. Especially that -2 as some of the best support for zombies out there is from creatures that aren't even zombies which tend to die to Call of the Grave; yes, yes Tortured Existence was in my deck as well. I do also like that +1 as it can make trading with my Gravecrawler that much better as it can suddenly take out x/3 creatures; not factoring in lords of course. Plus just the mere fact that Liliana is just 1BB with 3 loyalty isn't half bad at all.
I actually also understand why they used Weakness from a mechanical and lore side for her +1 ability: Eldrazi in this set, at least the minor ones are typically 3/2s or 3/3s. So if a 2/2 Zombie were to battle a 3/3 Eldrazi that was also hit by Liliana to make it a 1/2 effectively, the Eldrazi always loses out on the trade.
I am also kind of amused on how people were expecting Liliana of the Veil strength for her next card but that would be like expecting the next Jace they printed to also on the same power level of Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Gamble like that with your expectations and your always going to go broke.
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I love the new lili. She's quite strong in a modern Grixis shell, and quite strong in any of the GB decks in standard. Definitely going to be investing in some when they're nice and low at the prerelease.
I play grixis and just don't see it. Can you please explain?
i think this lili is a good card, but not great (and i am not comparing here with lotv)
i wonder if -2-2 would have been to powerful
same goes for her second ability. is it so strong that it had to be -2 ? why not -1 or why not make it the +1 ability and -2-2 the -2 ability ???
the thing with those 2 abilities is, they aint bad, but they aint that good too. spend 3 mana to make some a creature smaller without really being able to kill it (i mean, it can kill some, but those are rarely ... u know what i mean). also the -2 can be to random in the early game and not that much of a card advantage.
so those abilities are not bad, but they are only in so specific situations really good. i would have prefered a general good lili to have a more stable turn 3 drop in my deck.
I thought jace, telepath unbound is trash so I'll just go with: "she's really good!" this time. In fact, I'd even say she's a somewhat black version of flip-jace. The first ability not only weakens creatures, but will kill those annoying plant and thopter tokens that this meta has and most likely will have in the future. Her minus is similar to jace as well, creating value by utilizing the graveyard. It will take more effort to find the right deck for that, but creatures are ridiculous in todays magic so how hard can it be? The ultimate doesn't really look that great, but I think it's more like nissa, voice of zendikar. It's slow, sure, but once you get there it will most likely get the job done.
I think this lili just get's a lot of hate by simply costing 3 mana, as such she's automatically compared to liliana of the veil.
Art by Anna Steinbauer is phenomenal and my favourite lili art in an instant. The oath... I don't know, looks at least decent, would be outright fantastic at cmc2. Problem here are hangarback walkers , nissas and gideons tokens and eldrazi scions, those are literally everywhere and make sac-effects miserable.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I love the new lili. She's quite strong in a modern Grixis shell, and quite strong in any of the GB decks in standard. Definitely going to be investing in some when they're nice and low at the prerelease.
I play grixis and just don't see it. Can you please explain?
I think i can see a little of what he is hinting at for grixis in standard. Her +1 helps you survive to midrange. The -2 can put dark dwellers or kalitas back in your hand, and random spells milled aren't as bad with dark dwellers. Her ultimate might be the game ender in a grindy match.
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I play Standard, EDH, and a very tiny bit of Modern.
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This feels outclassed.
-Chandra Nalaar
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
She has a lot of potential alongside Dead Weight, Grasp of Darkness, Oath of Liliana, Flaying Tendrils, and Languish as removal and Relentless Dead, Mindwrack Demon, and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet as threats. Each card is powerful on its own, and think of the synergies!
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Yes, the ultimate will rapidly get out of hand. Especially in a good zombie deck, which should have a couple ghouls on the board already.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Compare it to Koth of the Hammer. That builds fast, and allows you to utterly dominate when you get it online.
She would have been a lot better if her ult was -6 or if she started with loyalty 4 and her ult gave X = one plus your Zombie count instead of two. Your exponential increase would be smaller, but that's kinda arbitrary.
The power is more in the inevitability it should present rather than the straight-up value. And oddly the accent on value here waters the ability down by pushing up its cost.
Compare her with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. They climb at the same rate and I would much rather draw a bunch of cards and gain life than get a slow-working emblem.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
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10/10, I tapped.
Your evaluation is different than mine. No harm in that because I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. There will always be a 'glass is half full' camp and a 'glass is half empty' camp and everyone can shape their discussion to validate their stance. All I wanted to do was remind folks that regardless of whether they're a half empty or half full kinda person, the one thing that isn't debatable is the fact that there's a glass with water. In this case, said glass is a planeswalker with three mana worth of water in it. History tells us that is an inherently strong combination, regardless of how we feel about it at face value.
So, what are the odds of us being wrong and its terrible? Well, its certainly a non-zero amount. However, once again, history has shown us that every 3CMC planeswalker ever printed has seen substantial constructed play. I like those odds and I like learning from history instead of repeating past mistakes. But that's just me. To each their own, good sir.
When Wizards were doing the original Innistrad, they specifically wanted to be resonant, to make cards work as people expect to. Zombies, at least the black ones, have as common tropes that they are slow and that there is a lot of them. This is the reason why haste wouldn't fit them, and also the reason why so many of them enters the battlefield tapped, which doesn't usually happen on other planes -- it's another mechanical device to express the slowness.
I think the +1 should have been the graveyard filler. Graveyard should be about choice. As it stands, it's an ultimate that goes down to Flaying Tendrils. I had hoped for more...
Mediocre is a good word to describe the card. When you look at her abilities you kind of have to ask yourself if you'd play them if they were cards. Her first ability is low impact, her second ability is like Corpse Churn only worse, and her third ability is similar to Endless Ranks of the Dead but slightly better. Like someone else pointed out, you have to have creatures in your gy for her second ability to be useful like her third ability in which you need a few zombies on the board to gain any real benefit.
I'm tired of playing Jund in modern and standard is g/w hell.
Mark my words, the Year of Eldrazi will not be the last we see of them.
RGUCascade Cascade -- When you want to put a Roil Elemental into play before a Boundless Realms is cast...RGU
Meh
Modern
BUWEsper ControlWUB
BRUGrixis DelverURB
WRBGKiki ChordGBRW
WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW
BRGJundGRB
Legacy
UBRGrixis DelverRBU
Commander
Also meh
The magic access video that debuted emrakul literally had liliana summoning zombies who then proceeded to sprint extremely quickly. I would say that alone could allow for haste to work.
This Liliana really isn't bad unless you are hanging on to the past. I am certain that in Modern or Legacy you would want Liliana of the Veil, of course, since forcing the sacrifice of permanents is significantly more powerful.
I actually also understand why they used Weakness from a mechanical and lore side for her +1 ability: Eldrazi in this set, at least the minor ones are typically 3/2s or 3/3s. So if a 2/2 Zombie were to battle a 3/3 Eldrazi that was also hit by Liliana to make it a 1/2 effectively, the Eldrazi always loses out on the trade.
I am also kind of amused on how people were expecting Liliana of the Veil strength for her next card but that would be like expecting the next Jace they printed to also on the same power level of Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Gamble like that with your expectations and your always going to go broke.
Commander: Hazezon Tamar (GRW), Arjun, the Shifting Flame (UR), [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Tiny Leader: [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Peasant Dragon: [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Modern: Orzhova Spirits (WB)
Legacy: Burn (R)
Vintage: Bazaar Dredge (B)
I play grixis and just don't see it. Can you please explain?
She will kill most humans in standard with the -1
I think this lili just get's a lot of hate by simply costing 3 mana, as such she's automatically compared to liliana of the veil.
Art by Anna Steinbauer is phenomenal and my favourite lili art in an instant. The oath... I don't know, looks at least decent, would be outright fantastic at cmc2. Problem here are hangarback walkers , nissas and gideons tokens and eldrazi scions, those are literally everywhere and make sac-effects miserable.
I think i can see a little of what he is hinting at for grixis in standard. Her +1 helps you survive to midrange. The -2 can put dark dwellers or kalitas back in your hand, and random spells milled aren't as bad with dark dwellers. Her ultimate might be the game ender in a grindy match.