Until today, when I played twin my opponent could never tap out on their turn. Ever. Or risk losing immediately, despite me having nothing on board to set up.
Now I will be able to play decks that tap out on turn 3 without the high likelihood of losing immediately.
Reading through this thread I think I've come around to understand these bans, and hopefully some of these will point to certain unbans in the future.
Reading Forsythe's Twitter last night was pretty interesting. He answered some of the questions posed in this thread pretty well in my opinion. He discussed future unbannings, and said they would look hard at unbanning Visions. They just didn't want to make such a huge change by banning two top decks and also unbanning at the same time (which is the right decision). It doesn't sound like he is in favor of unbanning Sword though.
The only way Sword could ever be unbanned is if Thopter Foundry was banned.
Laughing so hard at the people who speculatively picked up Stoneforge Mystics thinking they would be unbanned.
I feel bad for the Twin players. Wizards keeps pulling bans on the best decks out of nowhere and Modern as a format is going to die because of lack of customer confidence.
I feel like Delver was/is always over represented because it was more what people wanted to play in Pauper (IE their favorite "busted" cards like Gush, Cloud, etc.) than because it didn't have answers. At the very minimum MBC is like 50/50 vs. Delver and Mono-white tokens is maybe 70% to beat Delver. But people would much rather play Counterspell and Ponder because they're "poster child" old cards. That said, Familiar was very strong. So I'm torn. I really feel like Faeries didn't need a ban as CoF was the only thing making Spellstutter Sprite playable, but I don't know that there was a legit ban for Familiar other than CoF. In any case at least on paper you can use your own ban list.
I've never thought R&D members to be so stupid like today when I read about the Splinter Twin ban.
First, we're speaking of a MM2015 rare: how can you reprint a card you seriously think you're going to be forced to ban? It doesn't make any sense from a marketing perspective, since people have spent a lot of money to take the chance to build new decks and now their investment has disappeared if they went in the Twin direction.
Second, just like Summer Bloom going away technically doesn't mean Amulet to be dead (there are other options to ramp mana, such as the ones quotedbefore, or Explore and rituals), they could have banned another card to make the deck less powerful, but still exist. I would have chosen Deceiver Exarch in the blink of an eye: making this choice they would have left only Pestermite to consistently combo off in blue, and we all know how fragile it is, leading the deck either to be far less powerful or to choose otheroptions, all more suffering to removals than Exarch or making the mana base less stable. At least I would have tried for these three months...
1. How do you not print a cornerstone piece of the Modern Metagame that was getting pretty expensive. How would have these boards reacted if Splinter Twin wasn't in MM2?
I feel bad for Twin players, but I'm curious - what are folks with Twin decks going to do with their decks? Play a Kiki variant instead? Go to Grixis Control or similar? Play a different deck entirely?
I feel bad for Twin players, but I'm curious - what are folks with Twin decks going to do with their decks? Play a Kiki variant instead? Go to Grixis Control or similar? Play a different deck entirely?
Going to build Scapeshift now since I don't have to buy that many new cards for it
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Yikes. The only thing worse than a sexless marriage is a stale metagame at home. When that happens, it's time to sideboard a mistress or two.
Invest in modern they said, the cards will always hold their value they said....
Wizards said the exact opposite of, "the cards will retain their value". They actually wanted people to play modern because as they stated, "We can reprint the cards and keep the price in check".
Why reprint when you can just ban to keep the price down? Just ban Tarmogoyf and watch is price melt like a snowflake in hell.
Invest in modern they said, the cards will always hold their value they said....
Wizards said the exact opposite of, "the cards will retain their value". They actually wanted people to play modern because as they stated, "We can reprint the cards and keep the price in check".
Why reprint when you can just ban to keep the price down? Just ban Tarmogoyf and watch is price melt like a snowflake in hell.
Doesn't work that way. One of the reasons Tarmogoyf costs so much is because Tarmogoyf costs so much. Changing the formats that allow it won't affect the price that much due to this price memory. If that was the case Jace, the Mindsculptor should have crashed. Not to mention it sees play in Legacy, which will keep it soundly at its (admittedly absurd) price.
I've never thought R&D members to be so stupid like today when I read about the Splinter Twin ban.
First, we're speaking of a MM2015 rare: how can you reprint a card you seriously think you're going to be forced to ban? It doesn't make any sense from a marketing perspective, since people have spent a lot of money to take the chance to build new decks and now their investment has disappeared if they went in the Twin direction.
Second, just like Summer Bloom going away technically doesn't mean Amulet to be dead (there are other options to ramp mana, such as the ones quotedbefore, or Explore and rituals), they could have banned another card to make the deck less powerful, but still exist. I would have chosen Deceiver Exarch in the blink of an eye: making this choice they would have left only Pestermite to consistently combo off in blue, and we all know how fragile it is, leading the deck either to be far less powerful or to choose otheroptions, all more suffering to removals than Exarch or making the mana base less stable. At least I would have tried for these three months...
1. How do you not print a cornerstone piece of the Modern Metagame that was getting pretty expensive. How would have these boards reacted if Splinter Twin wasn't in MM2?
2. They didn't want Twin to exist.
Before the ban, Splinter Twin wasn't nearly as expensive as Damnation, Grove of the Burnwillows, Horizon Canopy and other good cards left out of the set. You can't reprint in MM2015 a 10€ card if you seriously think you could ban it: I'm sure you know how high the cost of the product was, how mostly unuseful Twin was in MM2015 Limited and how many good reprints have been left out of the set, even in red! From a customer perspective, it's a huge, huge failure. If they really didn't want the deck to be played, this reprint makes even less sense if possible: just go with Goblin Guide in MM2015 instead, everyone understands you're thinking to ban Twin and that's it.
Canopy and Grove weren't that expensive before MM. After they weren't reprinted in MM, it skyrocketed, which is the same thing that would have happened to Twin, and everyone would have *****ed, just like they are now. Nothing WOTC could have done to please people because people are dumb.
WOTC bans cards based on 'dominance' and frequency on top 8, may i ask why haven't they banned tarmogoyf yet? I think if you check the number of tarmogoyf vs splinter twin in the top tables tarmogoyf may come out ahead, yet they don't seem to mind.
WOTC bans cards based on 'dominance' and frequency on top 8, may i ask why haven't they banned tarmogoyf yet? I think if you check the number of tarmogoyf vs splinter twin in the top tables tarmogoyf may come out ahead, yet they don't seem to mind.
Because new wizards design philopsphy is creatures before spells. It's why they're okay with Goyf, rhino, bob, etc, but somehow counterspell is too powerful.
WOTC bans cards based on 'dominance' and frequency on top 8, may i ask why haven't they banned tarmogoyf yet? I think if you check the number of tarmogoyf vs splinter twin in the top tables tarmogoyf may come out ahead, yet they don't seem to mind.
Because new wizards design philopsphy is creatures before spells. It's why they're okay with Goyf, rhino, bob, etc, but somehow counterspell is too powerful.
The new wizards design philosophy is that creatures ARE the spells now. Nearly very creature worth playing has some spell-like 'comes into play' (Clique, Rhino, Snappy, Titans, Restoration Angel, etc.) effect or some enchantment-like or artifact-like effect (Bob, Tasigur, Thalia, Keranos, etc.), or in the case of the new Eldrazi a 'when you cast this creature' effect happens weather you resolve the creature or not.
Wizards is pushing spells to be the support cards to help keep creatures alive, or kill creatures, or augment creatures, but the creatures themselves have supplanted strong spells.
The new wizards design philosophy is that creatures ARE the spells now. Nearly very creature worth playing has some spell-like 'comes into play' (Clique, Rhino, Snappy, Titans, Restoration Angel, etc.) effect or some enchantment-like or artifact-like effect (Bob, Tasigur, Thalia, Keranos, etc.), or in the case of the new Eldrazi a 'when you cast this creature' effect happens weather you resolve the creature or not.
Wizards is pushing spells to be the support cards to help keep creatures alive, or kill creatures, or augment creatures, but the creatures themselves have supplanted strong spells.
I'm sure "Creatures : The Marshalling" (which is what we are playing nowadays) would have worked so much better marketing-wise 20 years ago... Generals of the Coast really left some money on the table with their "Magic" nonsense...
WOTC bans cards based on 'dominance' and frequency on top 8, may i ask why haven't they banned tarmogoyf yet? I think if you check the number of tarmogoyf vs splinter twin in the top tables tarmogoyf may come out ahead, yet they don't seem to mind.
Because new wizards design philopsphy is creatures before spells. It's why they're okay with Goyf, rhino, bob, etc, but somehow counterspell is too powerful.
The new wizards design philosophy is that creatures ARE the spells now. Nearly very creature worth playing has some spell-like 'comes into play' (Clique, Rhino, Snappy, Titans, Restoration Angel, etc.) effect or some enchantment-like or artifact-like effect (Bob, Tasigur, Thalia, Keranos, etc.), or in the case of the new Eldrazi a 'when you cast this creature' effect happens weather you resolve the creature or not.
Wizards is pushing spells to be the support cards to help keep creatures alive, or kill creatures, or augment creatures, but the creatures themselves have supplanted strong spells.
This.
Basically, take utility spells and staple them on a decent p/t chassis and charge more for the "combined" package.
Man I can't believe twin got banned. FML wizards you dicks just lost me like $300 jesus christ. Last time I buy into a modern deck
You can always pick up some kiki-jiki's and try out a version using that. It will be a tad slower true, but at the same time it still accomplishes the same thing. Instead of EoT, turn 3, play deceiver and then turn 4 play splinter twin and win, you just do EoT turn 4 play deceiver, and then turn 5 play kiki and win. The deck will need to evolve some, and heck could even run some sort of acceleration of some kind to still potentially come up with a turn 4 win of some kind (I haven't played the deck mind you).
While it is always unfortunate when cards get banned and decks become no longer viable, at least in this case with the two modern cards that were banned, both decks are still viable, is not necessarily Tier 1 any longer barring testing to see how slower versions of the combos work out for each deck.
So without getting involved in the whole debate about whether it was right or wrong, I have to ask guys: Which parts of my standard Affinity deck do you guys think I should sell and buy back when its cheaper once it gets hit with the banhammer? This announcement literally proves correct all those people last year who were saying that Twin was going to be next after Pod. As such, my buyer confidence is completely shaken, and I'm not taking the risk considering how expensive this deck was.
I'm thinking probably Opal, Glimmerpost and Ravager but if anyone else has some suggestions lmk fam.
I've never thought R&D members to be so stupid like today when I read about the Splinter Twin ban.
First, we're speaking of a MM2015 rare: how can you reprint a card you seriously think you're going to be forced to ban? It doesn't make any sense from a marketing perspective, since people have spent a lot of money to take the chance to build new decks and now their investment has disappeared if they went in the Twin direction.
Second, just like Summer Bloom going away technically doesn't mean Amulet to be dead (there are other options to ramp mana, such as the ones quotedbefore, or Explore and rituals), they could have banned another card to make the deck less powerful, but still exist. I would have chosen Deceiver Exarch in the blink of an eye: making this choice they would have left only Pestermite to consistently combo off in blue, and we all know how fragile it is, leading the deck either to be far less powerful or to choose otheroptions, all more suffering to removals than Exarch or making the mana base less stable. At least I would have tried for these three months...
1. How do you not print a cornerstone piece of the Modern Metagame that was getting pretty expensive. How would have these boards reacted if Splinter Twin wasn't in MM2?
2. They didn't want Twin to exist.
Before the ban, Splinter Twin wasn't nearly as expensive as Damnation, Grove of the Burnwillows, Horizon Canopy and other good cards left out of the set. You can't reprint in MM2015 a 10€ card if you seriously think you could ban it: I'm sure you know how high the cost of the product was, how mostly unuseful Twin was in MM2015 Limited and how many good reprints have been left out of the set, even in red! From a customer perspective, it's a huge, huge failure. If they really didn't want the deck to be played, this reprint makes even less sense if possible: just go with Goblin Guide in MM2015 instead, everyone understands you're thinking to ban Twin and that's it.
Canopy and Grove weren't that expensive before MM. After they weren't reprinted in MM, it skyrocketed, which is the same thing that would have happened to Twin, and everyone would have *****ed, just like they are now. Nothing WOTC could have done to please people because people are dumb.
Edit: Grammar
They were both more expensive than twin before they sky rocketed, as were many other modern staples they chose not to reprint.
Printing a product specifically for a format and then bannning a card from that product less than a year later is a foul up and is bad messaging.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
I didn't understand the summer bloom ban at first sight, but their explanation makes sense and is consistent with what they did in the past. I think banning twin is a pretty bad idea. This particular ban will probably cause a lot of mistrust. I know I'd probably be disgusted if I built a twin deck… Twin can be built in many ways and I don't believe it to be oppressive, it just happens to be a very good strategy. The numbers they reported don't make me think twins is a problem.
I am not advocating a ban on brainstorm, but I don't know how they could ban twin and not brainstorm.
Banning woudn't be a problem if the key cards wasn't damm expensive.Wizards needs to agressivelly make more reprints to lwoer the prices abit so players won't gamble into the format risking having a deck intirelly unplayable because of bans
FML wizards you dicks just lost me like $300 jesus christ.
I'm confident that just about everything expensive in the deck, meaning the manabase and Snapcaster Mage, is assured to keep value.
The combo package itself wasn't the expensive part.
I don't even think this kills twin as a deck. To me this ban is a little weird and unnecessary, but it says a lot about the deck if banning it's namesake doesn't even require it to change its main strategy.
Now I will be able to play decks that tap out on turn 3 without the high likelihood of losing immediately.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
The only way Sword could ever be unbanned is if Thopter Foundry was banned.
I feel bad for the Twin players. Wizards keeps pulling bans on the best decks out of nowhere and Modern as a format is going to die because of lack of customer confidence.
1. How do you not print a cornerstone piece of the Modern Metagame that was getting pretty expensive. How would have these boards reacted if Splinter Twin wasn't in MM2?
2. They didn't want Twin to exist.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I feel bad for Twin players, but I'm curious - what are folks with Twin decks going to do with their decks? Play a Kiki variant instead? Go to Grixis Control or similar? Play a different deck entirely?
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
Going to build Scapeshift now since I don't have to buy that many new cards for it
Doesn't work that way. One of the reasons Tarmogoyf costs so much is because Tarmogoyf costs so much. Changing the formats that allow it won't affect the price that much due to this price memory. If that was the case Jace, the Mindsculptor should have crashed. Not to mention it sees play in Legacy, which will keep it soundly at its (admittedly absurd) price.
Canopy and Grove weren't that expensive before MM. After they weren't reprinted in MM, it skyrocketed, which is the same thing that would have happened to Twin, and everyone would have *****ed, just like they are now. Nothing WOTC could have done to please people because people are dumb.
Edit: Grammar
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Because new wizards design philopsphy is creatures before spells. It's why they're okay with Goyf, rhino, bob, etc, but somehow counterspell is too powerful.
The new wizards design philosophy is that creatures ARE the spells now. Nearly very creature worth playing has some spell-like 'comes into play' (Clique, Rhino, Snappy, Titans, Restoration Angel, etc.) effect or some enchantment-like or artifact-like effect (Bob, Tasigur, Thalia, Keranos, etc.), or in the case of the new Eldrazi a 'when you cast this creature' effect happens weather you resolve the creature or not.
Wizards is pushing spells to be the support cards to help keep creatures alive, or kill creatures, or augment creatures, but the creatures themselves have supplanted strong spells.
I'm sure "Creatures : The Marshalling" (which is what we are playing nowadays) would have worked so much better marketing-wise 20 years ago... Generals of the Coast really left some money on the table with their "Magic" nonsense...
This.
Basically, take utility spells and staple them on a decent p/t chassis and charge more for the "combined" package.
You can always pick up some kiki-jiki's and try out a version using that. It will be a tad slower true, but at the same time it still accomplishes the same thing. Instead of EoT, turn 3, play deceiver and then turn 4 play splinter twin and win, you just do EoT turn 4 play deceiver, and then turn 5 play kiki and win. The deck will need to evolve some, and heck could even run some sort of acceleration of some kind to still potentially come up with a turn 4 win of some kind (I haven't played the deck mind you).
While it is always unfortunate when cards get banned and decks become no longer viable, at least in this case with the two modern cards that were banned, both decks are still viable, is not necessarily Tier 1 any longer barring testing to see how slower versions of the combos work out for each deck.
I'm thinking probably Opal, Glimmerpost and Ravager but if anyone else has some suggestions lmk fam.
They were both more expensive than twin before they sky rocketed, as were many other modern staples they chose not to reprint.
Printing a product specifically for a format and then bannning a card from that product less than a year later is a foul up and is bad messaging.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
I am not advocating a ban on brainstorm, but I don't know how they could ban twin and not brainstorm.
purrrty dumb